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Helios Crash

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Anonymous
August 16, 2005 1:32:32 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Does anyone think that the 2 passengers reportedly struggling with the
controls, as seen by F16 pilots, of the Helios flight may have caused the
crash into a mountainside. I presume the 737 would have been flying with
the FMC engaged. Could they have deactivated it somehow or did the aircraft
break apart whilst still airborne? I read one report that the captain left
the flightdeck to check on situation in the cabin and was overcome by the
lack of pressure/oxygen - surely this wouldn't have been allowed. I know
pilots have a dedicated oxygen supply in case of an emergency but we may
require them wear a mask all the time like fighter pilots.

What do you guys think. I'm surprised there has been so little debate on
this recent tragedy.

--
Ibby (The artist formally known as Chris)

Athlon64 3000+
512Mb PC3200 Ram
Radeon 9800 Pro (128 Mb)
80G H-D
60G H-D
Saitek Evo Force Flightstick
Windows XP SP2

More about : helios crash

Anonymous
August 16, 2005 1:32:33 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

It has been reported that the SMS message sent by a passenger before
the crash was a Hoax, As I recall, the news about the SMS message where
published shortly after the crash when nobody knew what really
happened.

So is this a coincidence? the contents of the SMS message where 'we are
freezing here' or something like that... the only situation I think
passengers will freeze to death is above FL30 in a catastrophic loss of
air pressure, which is, what supposedly happen to this plane...

_________________________________________________________
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Visit www.simradar.com and try our Flight Simulation Search Engine!
Anonymous
August 16, 2005 3:00:45 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Ibby (The Artist Formally Known as Chris)"
<chris@mwapartnership(NOSPAM).co.uk> wrote in message
news:D dsbrf$jq7$1@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
> Does anyone think that the 2 passengers reportedly struggling with the
> controls, as seen by F16 pilots, of the Helios flight may have caused the
> crash into a mountainside. I presume the 737 would have been flying with
> the FMC engaged. Could they have deactivated it somehow or did the
> aircraft break apart whilst still airborne? I read one report that the
> captain left the flightdeck to check on situation in the cabin and was
> overcome by the lack of pressure/oxygen - surely this wouldn't have been
> allowed. I know pilots have a dedicated oxygen supply in case of an
> emergency but we may require them wear a mask all the time like fighter
> pilots.
>
> What do you guys think. I'm surprised there has been so little debate on
> this recent tragedy.
>

Who was left alive to report that the Captain left the cockpit?
Didn't the F16's report seeing both crew 'slumped' in their seats.

As an aside to this, with the extra security (thicker doors, etc) preventing
unauthorised access to the flight deck who has control of access?

Chris
Related resources
August 16, 2005 3:00:46 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Chris Curtis" <chris@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:s4qdnTAC3NjFJJzeRVnyvg@pipex.net...
> "Ibby (The Artist Formally Known as Chris)"
> <chris@mwapartnership(NOSPAM).co.uk> wrote in message
> news:D dsbrf$jq7$1@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
>> Does anyone think that the 2 passengers reportedly struggling with the
>> controls, as seen by F16 pilots, of the Helios flight may have caused the
>> crash into a mountainside. I presume the 737 would have been flying with
>> the FMC engaged. Could they have deactivated it somehow or did the
>> aircraft break apart whilst still airborne? I read one report that the
>> captain left the flightdeck to check on situation in the cabin and was
>> overcome by the lack of pressure/oxygen - surely this wouldn't have been
>> allowed. I know pilots have a dedicated oxygen supply in case of an
>> emergency but we may require them wear a mask all the time like fighter
>> pilots.
>>
>> What do you guys think. I'm surprised there has been so little debate on
>> this recent tragedy.
>>
>
> Who was left alive to report that the Captain left the cockpit?
> Didn't the F16's report seeing both crew 'slumped' in their seats.
>
> As an aside to this, with the extra security (thicker doors, etc)
> preventing unauthorised access to the flight deck who has control of
> access?
>
> Chris

Extract from AP report
Investigators also were trying to determine why the pilot was not in his
seat shortly before the crash.

The pilots of two Greek air force F-16 fighter planes scrambled to intercept
the plane after it lost contact with air traffic control shortly after
entering Greek airspace said they saw the co-pilot slumped over the
controls. The pilot did not appear to be in the cockpit, and oxygen masks
were seen dangling in the cabin.

The fighter jet pilots also saw two people possibly trying to take control
of the plane; it was unclear if they were crew members or passengers.



++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Anonymous
August 16, 2005 3:53:04 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Ibby (The Artist Formally Known as Chris)"
<chris@mwapartnership(NOSPAM).co.uk> wrote in message
news:D dsbrf$jq7$1@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...

> What do you guys think. I'm surprised there has been so little debate on
> this recent tragedy.

Is that because it didn't happen in the USA, I wonder? (Sorry - that was
naughty but is there a grain of truth?) It was a really tragic event and
made so much worse by the reports that the a/craft had been in maintenance
to have an air conditioning problem fixed.

Regarding the two passengers seen struggling with the controls, it does make
you wonder whether they knew what they were doing. As you say Ibby, if the
AP was engaged the plane should have kept flying. But what I wonder is what
could cause such a sudden depress? Perhaps we'd better wait for the results
of the enquiry.

Incidentally, couldn't there be an automatic system that immediately starts
a descent to 10000 ft or whatever, in the event of a sudden
depressurisation? Or would that be seen as taking control away from the
pilots?

Iain
Anonymous
August 16, 2005 4:03:17 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

They found both black boxes but I believe one is quite damaged. With regard
to automatic descent I suppose that would depend on terrain. This automatic
system may well crash the aircraft anyway.

Ibby

"Iain Smith" <iainsmith.rugby@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:D dsk2v$9cn$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
>
> "Ibby (The Artist Formally Known as Chris)"
> <chris@mwapartnership(NOSPAM).co.uk> wrote in message
> news:D dsbrf$jq7$1@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
>
>> What do you guys think. I'm surprised there has been so little debate on
>> this recent tragedy.
>
> Is that because it didn't happen in the USA, I wonder? (Sorry - that was
> naughty but is there a grain of truth?) It was a really tragic event and
> made so much worse by the reports that the a/craft had been in maintenance
> to have an air conditioning problem fixed.
>
> Regarding the two passengers seen struggling with the controls, it does
> make you wonder whether they knew what they were doing. As you say Ibby,
> if the AP was engaged the plane should have kept flying. But what I wonder
> is what could cause such a sudden depress? Perhaps we'd better wait for
> the results of the enquiry.
>
> Incidentally, couldn't there be an automatic system that immediately
> starts a descent to 10000 ft or whatever, in the event of a sudden
> depressurisation? Or would that be seen as taking control away from the
> pilots?
>
> Iain
>
Anonymous
August 16, 2005 5:36:46 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Iain Smith" <iainsmith.rugby@btinternet.com> wrote:

>
>"Ibby (The Artist Formally Known as Chris)"
><chris@mwapartnership(NOSPAM).co.uk> wrote in message
>news:D dsbrf$jq7$1@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
>
>> What do you guys think. I'm surprised there has been so little debate on
>> this recent tragedy.
>
>Is that because it didn't happen in the USA, I wonder? (Sorry - that was
>naughty but is there a grain of truth?) It was a really tragic event and
>made so much worse by the reports that the a/craft had been in maintenance
>to have an air conditioning problem fixed.

Because it didn't happen on FS9??

But if you went over to alt.disasters.aviation - there's lots of
activity about this tragedy.

-=tom=-
Anonymous
August 16, 2005 6:45:08 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

i think the main problem is they have a rather short supply of O2 in the
cockpit, however it seems the plane was on autopilot at crusing alt, even
with no cabin pressure! :o (

--
From Overlag - Adam Webb
"Ibby (The Artist Formally Known as Chris)"
<chris@mwapartnership(NOSPAM).co.uk> wrote in message
news:D dsbrf$jq7$1@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
> Does anyone think that the 2 passengers reportedly struggling with the
> controls, as seen by F16 pilots, of the Helios flight may have caused the
> crash into a mountainside. I presume the 737 would have been flying with
> the FMC engaged. Could they have deactivated it somehow or did the
> aircraft break apart whilst still airborne? I read one report that the
> captain left the flightdeck to check on situation in the cabin and was
> overcome by the lack of pressure/oxygen - surely this wouldn't have been
> allowed. I know pilots have a dedicated oxygen supply in case of an
> emergency but we may require them wear a mask all the time like fighter
> pilots.
>
> What do you guys think. I'm surprised there has been so little debate on
> this recent tragedy.
>
> --
> Ibby (The artist formally known as Chris)
>
> Athlon64 3000+
> 512Mb PC3200 Ram
> Radeon 9800 Pro (128 Mb)
> 80G H-D
> 60G H-D
> Saitek Evo Force Flightstick
> Windows XP SP2
>
>
Anonymous
August 16, 2005 7:13:14 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Beech45Whiskey wrote:

> Iain Smith <iainsmith.rugby@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Is that because it didn't happen in the USA, I wonder? (Sorry - that was
>>naughty but is there a grain of truth?)
>
>
> Spare me that anti-US bias, will you?
>
> If you care to read rec.aviation.piloting, which is made up mostly of
> US-based pilots as regular contributors, you will see plenty of threads
> about this very disturbing accident.
>
As well as the PPRUNE forum. (http://www.pprune.org/forums/)
To answer the original question, the plane almost certainly ran out of
fuel while on autopilot at exactly the predicted time- planned flight
time + reserve.

T.
Anonymous
August 16, 2005 7:36:48 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Jose L Altuve Jr." <Jose L Altuve Jr.@forums.simradar.com> wrote in message
news:1124201989.15644@forums.simradar.com...
> It has been reported that the SMS message sent by a passenger before
> the crash was a Hoax, As I recall, the news about the SMS message where
> published shortly after the crash when nobody knew what really
> happened.
>
> So is this a coincidence? the contents of the SMS message where 'we are
> freezing here' or something like that... the only situation I think
> passengers will freeze to death is above FL30 in a catastrophic loss of
> air pressure, which is, what supposedly happen to this plane...
>

Well we are talking about a country with a legal system who managed to
imprison a load of plane spotters who were 'spying' a few years back!
I guess it is the so called 'recipient' of the message who is under
investigation. Nobody in those circumstances is going to send a hoax.

Incidentally and it has no bearing or real relevance regarding this incident
but you may remember I posted last week about a flight from Cyprus which had
a go around at Heathrow and I questioned the length of time it took for the
passengers to be informed as to why; that was the same airline.

Chris
Anonymous
August 17, 2005 12:43:57 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

> To answer the original question, the plane almost certainly ran out of
> fuel while on autopilot at exactly the predicted time- planned flight time
> + reserve.
>

it didnt even get to its destination, it was still 20miles (or was it KM?)
from athens, so how could it have run out of fuel+reserve???

--
From Overlag - Adam Webb
Anonymous
August 17, 2005 12:43:58 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Adam Webb" <adam@ajmysecondname.eclipse.co.uk> wrote:

>it didnt even get to its destination, it was still 20miles (or was it KM?)
>from athens, so how could it have run out of fuel+reserve???

If that AP acted like the one in our FS, then it would circle once it
reached thelast waypoin or approach fix, depending on what the pilots
entered into the AP on departure.
The only way it would continue on a straight heading is if HDG was
selected.

-=tom=-
Anonymous
August 17, 2005 12:58:29 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

> Well we are talking about a country with a legal system who managed to
> imprison a load of plane spotters who were 'spying' a few years back!

to be fair, greece is still "at war" or should i say very very against the
turks after the whole Cyprus "war" thing. Greek airports, like Thessaloniki
are coverd with Missile batteries, and have fighter jets on station. ALL
greek airports ive been to that are within range of Turkey have strict *NO
PHOTO* rules. Break them, and you will loose your camera at the very least.
Of coarse if you are on the plane they cant really stop you! ;-) They have
relaxed the ruling on other airports lately but "front line" airports are
treated as miliatary bases.....

Where as in spain, your allowed to take photos pretty much anywhere.



--
From Overlag - Adam Webb
Anonymous
August 17, 2005 1:22:22 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

> If that AP acted like the one in our FS, then it would circle once it
> reached thelast waypoin or approach fix, depending on what the pilots
> entered into the AP on departure.
> The only way it would continue on a straight heading is if HDG was
> selected.

ah, true, didnt think of that.

--
From Overlag - Adam Webb
Anonymous
August 17, 2005 2:05:47 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Tom Orle" <xspam.torle@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:et84g1hs9d7ihtj7j2mqq7ao0jqumha9vi@4ax.com...
> "Iain Smith" <iainsmith.rugby@btinternet.com> wrote:
> Because it didn't happen on FS9??
>
> But if you went over to alt.disasters.aviation - there's lots of
> activity about this tragedy.

Maybe Tom but I'll guarantee that if it had happened in the US this NG would
have seen more posts about it than it has so far.

Iain
Anonymous
August 17, 2005 2:12:45 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

why the hell would you leave the flight deck ABOVE 14000 ?????? that is
plain stupid.

FIRST priority get the aircraft to 14000 or below THEN look at other
tasks....

BUT what if the pilots air supply was not working at 100%, then it would be
like, being drunk.... maybe this was the case here?...

hindsight is a valuable tool ONLY if we learn from it

As a father myself, my heart pours to the families of the children aboard


"Ibby (The Artist Formally Known as Chris)"
<chris@mwapartnership(NOSPAM).co.uk> wrote in message
news:D dsbrf$jq7$1@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
> Does anyone think that the 2 passengers reportedly struggling with the
> controls, as seen by F16 pilots, of the Helios flight may have caused the
> crash into a mountainside. I presume the 737 would have been flying with
> the FMC engaged. Could they have deactivated it somehow or did the
aircraft
> break apart whilst still airborne? I read one report that the captain
left
> the flightdeck to check on situation in the cabin and was overcome by the
> lack of pressure/oxygen - surely this wouldn't have been allowed. I know
> pilots have a dedicated oxygen supply in case of an emergency but we may
> require them wear a mask all the time like fighter pilots.
>
> What do you guys think. I'm surprised there has been so little debate on
> this recent tragedy.
>
> --
> Ibby (The artist formally known as Chris)
>
> Athlon64 3000+
> 512Mb PC3200 Ram
> Radeon 9800 Pro (128 Mb)
> 80G H-D
> 60G H-D
> Saitek Evo Force Flightstick
> Windows XP SP2
>
>
August 17, 2005 2:12:46 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

> why the hell would you leave the flight deck ABOVE 14000 ?????? that is
> plain stupid.
>
> FIRST priority get the aircraft to 14000 or below THEN look at other
> tasks....
>
> BUT what if the pilots air supply was not working at 100%, then it would
> be
> like, being drunk.... maybe this was the case here?...
>
> hindsight is a valuable tool ONLY if we learn from it
>
> As a father myself, my heart pours to the families of the children aboard

I heard on the news this morning that Police have raided the offices of
Helios looking for evidence of previous flights with faulty air
conditioning.

Black boxes have been recovered apparently.

My heart goes out to the families involved.

Colin
Anonymous
August 17, 2005 2:12:46 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Paul R" <rudmans@xtra.co.nz> wrote:

>why the hell would you leave the flight deck ABOVE 14000 ?????? that is
>plain stupid.

Maybe to get the reserve oxygen bottle if the primary one doesn't seem
to be working?!?

No, not fact, just a reason why one would leave the flight deck.

-=tom=-
Anonymous
August 17, 2005 2:20:54 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

wonder what will be on the black box.. did they find it??


"Chris Curtis" <chris@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:s4qdnTAC3NjFJJzeRVnyvg@pipex.net...
> "Ibby (The Artist Formally Known as Chris)"
> <chris@mwapartnership(NOSPAM).co.uk> wrote in message
> news:D dsbrf$jq7$1@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
>> Does anyone think that the 2 passengers reportedly struggling with the
>> controls, as seen by F16 pilots, of the Helios flight may have caused the
>> crash into a mountainside. I presume the 737 would have been flying with
>> the FMC engaged. Could they have deactivated it somehow or did the
>> aircraft break apart whilst still airborne? I read one report that the
>> captain left the flightdeck to check on situation in the cabin and was
>> overcome by the lack of pressure/oxygen - surely this wouldn't have been
>> allowed. I know pilots have a dedicated oxygen supply in case of an
>> emergency but we may require them wear a mask all the time like fighter
>> pilots.
>>
>> What do you guys think. I'm surprised there has been so little debate on
>> this recent tragedy.
>>
>
> Who was left alive to report that the Captain left the cockpit?
> Didn't the F16's report seeing both crew 'slumped' in their seats.
>
> As an aside to this, with the extra security (thicker doors, etc)
> preventing unauthorised access to the flight deck who has control of
> access?
>
> Chris
>
Anonymous
August 17, 2005 2:23:20 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

sorry the first line was to read... why the hell would you leave the flight
deck above 14000 IN AN EMERGENCY....

and i do not mean to sound like the pilots were drunk, only that their OXY
system may not have been 100%

when was the last "C" or "D" check on that A/C??


"Paul R" <rudmans@xtra.co.nz> wrote in message
news:wYiMe.3314$iM2.296219@news.xtra.co.nz...
> why the hell would you leave the flight deck ABOVE 14000 ?????? that is
> plain stupid.
>
> FIRST priority get the aircraft to 14000 or below THEN look at other
> tasks....
>
> BUT what if the pilots air supply was not working at 100%, then it would
be
> like, being drunk.... maybe this was the case here?...
>
> hindsight is a valuable tool ONLY if we learn from it
>
> As a father myself, my heart pours to the families of the children aboard
>
>
> "Ibby (The Artist Formally Known as Chris)"
> <chris@mwapartnership(NOSPAM).co.uk> wrote in message
> news:D dsbrf$jq7$1@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
> > Does anyone think that the 2 passengers reportedly struggling with the
> > controls, as seen by F16 pilots, of the Helios flight may have caused
the
> > crash into a mountainside. I presume the 737 would have been flying
with
> > the FMC engaged. Could they have deactivated it somehow or did the
> aircraft
> > break apart whilst still airborne? I read one report that the captain
> left
> > the flightdeck to check on situation in the cabin and was overcome by
the
> > lack of pressure/oxygen - surely this wouldn't have been allowed. I
know
> > pilots have a dedicated oxygen supply in case of an emergency but we may
> > require them wear a mask all the time like fighter pilots.
> >
> > What do you guys think. I'm surprised there has been so little debate
on
> > this recent tragedy.
> >
> > --
> > Ibby (The artist formally known as Chris)
> >
> > Athlon64 3000+
> > 512Mb PC3200 Ram
> > Radeon 9800 Pro (128 Mb)
> > 80G H-D
> > 60G H-D
> > Saitek Evo Force Flightstick
> > Windows XP SP2
> >
> >
>
>
Anonymous
August 17, 2005 2:24:35 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

yes both were rocovered


"donbutts" <remove.donneybutts@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:06jMe.3316$iM2.297202@news.xtra.co.nz...
> wonder what will be on the black box.. did they find it??
>
>
> "Chris Curtis" <chris@nospam.net> wrote in message
> news:s4qdnTAC3NjFJJzeRVnyvg@pipex.net...
> > "Ibby (The Artist Formally Known as Chris)"
> > <chris@mwapartnership(NOSPAM).co.uk> wrote in message
> > news:D dsbrf$jq7$1@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
> >> Does anyone think that the 2 passengers reportedly struggling with the
> >> controls, as seen by F16 pilots, of the Helios flight may have caused
the
> >> crash into a mountainside. I presume the 737 would have been flying
with
> >> the FMC engaged. Could they have deactivated it somehow or did the
> >> aircraft break apart whilst still airborne? I read one report that the
> >> captain left the flightdeck to check on situation in the cabin and was
> >> overcome by the lack of pressure/oxygen - surely this wouldn't have
been
> >> allowed. I know pilots have a dedicated oxygen supply in case of an
> >> emergency but we may require them wear a mask all the time like fighter
> >> pilots.
> >>
> >> What do you guys think. I'm surprised there has been so little debate
on
> >> this recent tragedy.
> >>
> >
> > Who was left alive to report that the Captain left the cockpit?
> > Didn't the F16's report seeing both crew 'slumped' in their seats.
> >
> > As an aside to this, with the extra security (thicker doors, etc)
> > preventing unauthorised access to the flight deck who has control of
> > access?
> >
> > Chris
> >
>
>
Anonymous
August 17, 2005 2:25:55 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Adam Webb" <adam@ajmysecondname.eclipse.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1NmdnZFbPPgZ2J_eRVnyrg@eclipse.net.uk...
>> Well we are talking about a country with a legal system who managed to
>> imprison a load of plane spotters who were 'spying' a few years back!
>
> to be fair, greece is still "at war" or should i say very very against the
> turks after the whole Cyprus "war" thing. Greek airports, like
> Thessaloniki are coverd with Missile batteries, and have fighter jets on
> station. ALL greek airports ive been to that are within range of Turkey
> have strict *NO PHOTO* rules. Break them, and you will loose your camera
> at the very least. Of coarse if you are on the plane they cant really stop
> you! ;-) They have relaxed the ruling on other airports lately but "front
> line" airports are treated as miliatary bases.....
>
> Where as in spain, your allowed to take photos pretty much anywhere.
>
>
>
> --
> From Overlag - Adam Webb

I realised that but it is still very much over the top!
In fact often the 'no photography' signs merely bring atttention to the fact
that there is some sort of installation nearby!
The ongoing tension is an often quoted reason for the road maps being so
poor. I've added many a mile to the hire car trying to follow them!

As a regular holiday visitor to both countries there seems to be little
animosity shown to each other particularly by the youngsters.
It might be different on Cyprus though!
I remember a delayed return flight from Chania in Crete (also an air force
base) many years ago when the pilot announced we had a slot for 10.00 GMT.
He went on to say unfortunately GMT stood for Greek Maybe Time...

Chris

Chris
Anonymous
August 17, 2005 2:26:00 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Date: 14 AUG 2005
Time: 12:03 local time
Type: Boeing 737-31S
Operator: Helios Airways
Registration: 5B-DBY
Msn / C/n: 29099/2982
Year built: 1998
Crew: 6 fatalities / 6 on board
Passengers: 115 fatalities / 115 on board
Total: 121 fatalities / 121 on board
Airplane damage: Written off
Location: 2 km from Grammatikos (Greece)
Phase: En route
Nature: International Scheduled Passenger
Departure airport: Larnaca Airport (LCA)
Destination airport: Athens-Eleftherios Venizelos International Airport
(ATH)
Flight number: 522
Helios' Flight 522 departed Larnaca at 09:07 on a scheduled 1 hour and 23
minute flight to Athens, Greece. After an intermidiate stop there, it was to
have continued on to Prague, Czech Republic.
The fight, cleared for an en route altitude of FL340, reportedly notified
Cypriotic controllers that they had some problems with the air conditioning
system. The 737 entered Greek air space about 09:37, but efforts by air
traffic controllers to contact the pilots were futile. Then, at 10:25 the
Greek Civil Aviation Authority notified the Defense Ministry's national
search and rescue center. At 10:55 two Greek F-16 fighter planes were
scrambled from the Néa Anghialos air base. About half an hour later the
F-16's intercepted the airliner over the island of Kea. The F-16 pilots
reported that they were not able to observe the captain, while the first
officer seemed to be unconscious. They continued to track the flight until
it crashed in mountainous terrain some 40 km North of Athens.
Reportedly the same Boeing 737, 5B-DBY, suffered a loss of cabin pressure on
December 20, 2004 during a flight from Warsaw to Larnaca. Three passengers
needed medical treatment after landing in Larnaca.
--------------------------------------------
AIRCRAFT PROFILE BOEING 737
* Last hull-loss 737-300 accident : 03 JAN 2004 Flash Airlines SU-ZCF, off
Sharm el Sheikh - 148 fatalities
* Total number of Boeing 737 hull-losses: 118 (108 accidents, 4 hijackings,
6 other occurrences (sabotage, ground fire etc.)), of which 64 losses were
fatal
* Total number of Boeing 737-300 hull-losses: 13 (13 accidents)
* 8th worst 737 accident
* 4th worst 737-300 accident
* Survival rate for all fatal B737 accidents: on average 27,8% of all
occupants survived fatal accidents
--------------------------------------------
OPERATOR PROFILE HELIOS AIRWAYS
Private Cypriotic airline
* founded: 1999
* fleet: Boeing 737-300, 737-800
* first hull-loss accident
--------------------------------------------
COUNTRY PROFILE GREECE
* Last airliner hull-loss accident: 04 JUL 2000 Tu-154B2 of Malev at
Thessaloniki - 0 fatalities
* Last fatal airliner hull-loss accident: 17 DEC 1997 Yakovlev 42 of
Aerosweet at Thessaloniki - 70 fatalities
* Worst airliner hull-loss accident
* The country is rated Category 1 (meeting ICAO standards) in FAA's
International Aviation Safety Assessment Program (IASA)
COUNTRY PROFILE CYPRUS
* First fatal hull-loss accident involving a Cypriotic airliner
* The country is not yet rated in FAA's International Aviation Safety
Assessment Program (IASA)
--------------------------------------------

"Ibby (The Artist Formally Known as Chris)"
<chris@mwapartnership(NOSPAM).co.uk> wrote in message
news:D dsbrf$jq7$1@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
> Does anyone think that the 2 passengers reportedly struggling with the
> controls, as seen by F16 pilots, of the Helios flight may have caused the
> crash into a mountainside. I presume the 737 would have been flying with
> the FMC engaged. Could they have deactivated it somehow or did the
aircraft
> break apart whilst still airborne? I read one report that the captain
left
> the flightdeck to check on situation in the cabin and was overcome by the
> lack of pressure/oxygen - surely this wouldn't have been allowed. I know
> pilots have a dedicated oxygen supply in case of an emergency but we may
> require them wear a mask all the time like fighter pilots.
>
> What do you guys think. I'm surprised there has been so little debate on
> this recent tragedy.
>
> --
> Ibby (The artist formally known as Chris)
>
> Athlon64 3000+
> 512Mb PC3200 Ram
> Radeon 9800 Pro (128 Mb)
> 80G H-D
> 60G H-D
> Saitek Evo Force Flightstick
> Windows XP SP2
>
>
Anonymous
August 17, 2005 2:26:01 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Cool, where'd you find this report?

"Paul R" <rudmans@xtra.co.nz> wrote in message
news:X8jMe.3319$iM2.297447@news.xtra.co.nz...
> Date: 14 AUG 2005
> Time: 12:03 local time
> Type: Boeing 737-31S
> Operator: Helios Airways
> Registration: 5B-DBY
> Msn / C/n: 29099/2982
> Year built: 1998
> Crew: 6 fatalities / 6 on board
> Passengers: 115 fatalities / 115 on board
> Total: 121 fatalities / 121 on board
> Airplane damage: Written off
> Location: 2 km from Grammatikos (Greece)
> Phase: En route
> Nature: International Scheduled Passenger
> Departure airport: Larnaca Airport (LCA)
> Destination airport: Athens-Eleftherios Venizelos International Airport
> (ATH)
> Flight number: 522
> Helios' Flight 522 departed Larnaca at 09:07 on a scheduled 1 hour and 23
> minute flight to Athens, Greece. After an intermidiate stop there, it was
> to
> have continued on to Prague, Czech Republic.
> The fight, cleared for an en route altitude of FL340, reportedly notified
> Cypriotic controllers that they had some problems with the air
> conditioning
> system. The 737 entered Greek air space about 09:37, but efforts by air
> traffic controllers to contact the pilots were futile. Then, at 10:25 the
> Greek Civil Aviation Authority notified the Defense Ministry's national
> search and rescue center. At 10:55 two Greek F-16 fighter planes were
> scrambled from the Néa Anghialos air base. About half an hour later the
> F-16's intercepted the airliner over the island of Kea. The F-16 pilots
> reported that they were not able to observe the captain, while the first
> officer seemed to be unconscious. They continued to track the flight until
> it crashed in mountainous terrain some 40 km North of Athens.
> Reportedly the same Boeing 737, 5B-DBY, suffered a loss of cabin pressure
> on
> December 20, 2004 during a flight from Warsaw to Larnaca. Three passengers
> needed medical treatment after landing in Larnaca.
> --------------------------------------------
> AIRCRAFT PROFILE BOEING 737
> * Last hull-loss 737-300 accident : 03 JAN 2004 Flash Airlines SU-ZCF,
> off
> Sharm el Sheikh - 148 fatalities
> * Total number of Boeing 737 hull-losses: 118 (108 accidents, 4
> hijackings,
> 6 other occurrences (sabotage, ground fire etc.)), of which 64 losses were
> fatal
> * Total number of Boeing 737-300 hull-losses: 13 (13 accidents)
> * 8th worst 737 accident
> * 4th worst 737-300 accident
> * Survival rate for all fatal B737 accidents: on average 27,8% of all
> occupants survived fatal accidents
> --------------------------------------------
> OPERATOR PROFILE HELIOS AIRWAYS
> Private Cypriotic airline
> * founded: 1999
> * fleet: Boeing 737-300, 737-800
> * first hull-loss accident
> --------------------------------------------
> COUNTRY PROFILE GREECE
> * Last airliner hull-loss accident: 04 JUL 2000 Tu-154B2 of Malev at
> Thessaloniki - 0 fatalities
> * Last fatal airliner hull-loss accident: 17 DEC 1997 Yakovlev 42 of
> Aerosweet at Thessaloniki - 70 fatalities
> * Worst airliner hull-loss accident
> * The country is rated Category 1 (meeting ICAO standards) in FAA's
> International Aviation Safety Assessment Program (IASA)
> COUNTRY PROFILE CYPRUS
> * First fatal hull-loss accident involving a Cypriotic airliner
> * The country is not yet rated in FAA's International Aviation Safety
> Assessment Program (IASA)
> --------------------------------------------
>
> "Ibby (The Artist Formally Known as Chris)"
> <chris@mwapartnership(NOSPAM).co.uk> wrote in message
> news:D dsbrf$jq7$1@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
>> Does anyone think that the 2 passengers reportedly struggling with the
>> controls, as seen by F16 pilots, of the Helios flight may have caused the
>> crash into a mountainside. I presume the 737 would have been flying with
>> the FMC engaged. Could they have deactivated it somehow or did the
> aircraft
>> break apart whilst still airborne? I read one report that the captain
> left
>> the flightdeck to check on situation in the cabin and was overcome by the
>> lack of pressure/oxygen - surely this wouldn't have been allowed. I know
>> pilots have a dedicated oxygen supply in case of an emergency but we may
>> require them wear a mask all the time like fighter pilots.
>>
>> What do you guys think. I'm surprised there has been so little debate on
>> this recent tragedy.
>>
>> --
>> Ibby (The artist formally known as Chris)
>>
>> Athlon64 3000+
>> 512Mb PC3200 Ram
>> Radeon 9800 Pro (128 Mb)
>> 80G H-D
>> 60G H-D
>> Saitek Evo Force Flightstick
>> Windows XP SP2
>>
>>
>
>
Anonymous
August 17, 2005 2:26:02 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

A good site for disaster info is http://www.airdisaster.com. It mentions
that captain not in cockpit. Could he then be found at fault for leaving
his post in an emergency and receive a posthumous disciplinary hearing.
Maybe Oskar can shed light on procedures.

Ibby

"Gary L." <noone@123.net> wrote in message
news:3sudnZ2dnZ1OCWzcnZ2dnYl7nN6dnZ2dRVn-yJ2dnZ0@comcast.com...
> Cool, where'd you find this report?
>
> "Paul R" <rudmans@xtra.co.nz> wrote in message
> news:X8jMe.3319$iM2.297447@news.xtra.co.nz...
>> Date: 14 AUG 2005
>> Time: 12:03 local time
>> Type: Boeing 737-31S
>> Operator: Helios Airways
>> Registration: 5B-DBY
>> Msn / C/n: 29099/2982
>> Year built: 1998
>> Crew: 6 fatalities / 6 on board
>> Passengers: 115 fatalities / 115 on board
>> Total: 121 fatalities / 121 on board
>> Airplane damage: Written off
>> Location: 2 km from Grammatikos (Greece)
>> Phase: En route
>> Nature: International Scheduled Passenger
>> Departure airport: Larnaca Airport (LCA)
>> Destination airport: Athens-Eleftherios Venizelos International Airport
>> (ATH)
>> Flight number: 522
>> Helios' Flight 522 departed Larnaca at 09:07 on a scheduled 1 hour and 23
>> minute flight to Athens, Greece. After an intermidiate stop there, it was
>> to
>> have continued on to Prague, Czech Republic.
>> The fight, cleared for an en route altitude of FL340, reportedly notified
>> Cypriotic controllers that they had some problems with the air
>> conditioning
>> system. The 737 entered Greek air space about 09:37, but efforts by air
>> traffic controllers to contact the pilots were futile. Then, at 10:25 the
>> Greek Civil Aviation Authority notified the Defense Ministry's national
>> search and rescue center. At 10:55 two Greek F-16 fighter planes were
>> scrambled from the Néa Anghialos air base. About half an hour later the
>> F-16's intercepted the airliner over the island of Kea. The F-16 pilots
>> reported that they were not able to observe the captain, while the first
>> officer seemed to be unconscious. They continued to track the flight
>> until
>> it crashed in mountainous terrain some 40 km North of Athens.
>> Reportedly the same Boeing 737, 5B-DBY, suffered a loss of cabin pressure
>> on
>> December 20, 2004 during a flight from Warsaw to Larnaca. Three
>> passengers
>> needed medical treatment after landing in Larnaca.
>> --------------------------------------------
>> AIRCRAFT PROFILE BOEING 737
>> * Last hull-loss 737-300 accident : 03 JAN 2004 Flash Airlines SU-ZCF,
>> off
>> Sharm el Sheikh - 148 fatalities
>> * Total number of Boeing 737 hull-losses: 118 (108 accidents, 4
>> hijackings,
>> 6 other occurrences (sabotage, ground fire etc.)), of which 64 losses
>> were
>> fatal
>> * Total number of Boeing 737-300 hull-losses: 13 (13 accidents)
>> * 8th worst 737 accident
>> * 4th worst 737-300 accident
>> * Survival rate for all fatal B737 accidents: on average 27,8% of all
>> occupants survived fatal accidents
>> --------------------------------------------
>> OPERATOR PROFILE HELIOS AIRWAYS
>> Private Cypriotic airline
>> * founded: 1999
>> * fleet: Boeing 737-300, 737-800
>> * first hull-loss accident
>> --------------------------------------------
>> COUNTRY PROFILE GREECE
>> * Last airliner hull-loss accident: 04 JUL 2000 Tu-154B2 of Malev at
>> Thessaloniki - 0 fatalities
>> * Last fatal airliner hull-loss accident: 17 DEC 1997 Yakovlev 42 of
>> Aerosweet at Thessaloniki - 70 fatalities
>> * Worst airliner hull-loss accident
>> * The country is rated Category 1 (meeting ICAO standards) in FAA's
>> International Aviation Safety Assessment Program (IASA)
>> COUNTRY PROFILE CYPRUS
>> * First fatal hull-loss accident involving a Cypriotic airliner
>> * The country is not yet rated in FAA's International Aviation Safety
>> Assessment Program (IASA)
>> --------------------------------------------
>>
>> "Ibby (The Artist Formally Known as Chris)"
>> <chris@mwapartnership(NOSPAM).co.uk> wrote in message
>> news:D dsbrf$jq7$1@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
>>> Does anyone think that the 2 passengers reportedly struggling with the
>>> controls, as seen by F16 pilots, of the Helios flight may have caused
>>> the
>>> crash into a mountainside. I presume the 737 would have been flying
>>> with
>>> the FMC engaged. Could they have deactivated it somehow or did the
>> aircraft
>>> break apart whilst still airborne? I read one report that the captain
>> left
>>> the flightdeck to check on situation in the cabin and was overcome by
>>> the
>>> lack of pressure/oxygen - surely this wouldn't have been allowed. I
>>> know
>>> pilots have a dedicated oxygen supply in case of an emergency but we may
>>> require them wear a mask all the time like fighter pilots.
>>>
>>> What do you guys think. I'm surprised there has been so little debate
>>> on
>>> this recent tragedy.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Ibby (The artist formally known as Chris)
>>>
>>> Athlon64 3000+
>>> 512Mb PC3200 Ram
>>> Radeon 9800 Pro (128 Mb)
>>> 80G H-D
>>> 60G H-D
>>> Saitek Evo Force Flightstick
>>> Windows XP SP2
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
Anonymous
August 17, 2005 2:26:03 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Guys, as you might have noticed I tried to stand out of all this chatting
and presuming as it is absolutely useless in my view. The most important
thing about all recent crashes has anyway never been discussed here. We all
should feel guilty and rethink the today's policy to be proud of finding the
cheapest ticket for our personal advantage. The chain of error which is
inherent in all incidents and accidents has today a very weak link which is
the aircrews being under tremendous pressure for most economic operation
inorder to cut any additional costs at almous any "price". Of course it is
very simple to say that "safety first" is alwas the ruling principle. I know
from my own experience how fast this priciple can be weakened by stress
applied from "above". It starts right at the beginning of aircrew selection.
Why employing high qualified pilots if you can hire some - with of course
the necessary papers - at a cheaper price? Who cares about personal
qualification if the papers show qualification for the A/C to be flown?
Operating an A/C on MRL (Minimum Requirement List) is something that should
be done in exceptional cases only but why not a few times more if
maintenance costs can be downed this way? And to burn the nowadays precious
fuel whend doing a missed approach or a diversion would maybe lead to some
unpleasant interrogations in the Chief Pilots office..... and ... and....
Believe me, I know exactly what I'm speaking of. Even so-called "serious"
airlines are not spared by this threat. Of course at the end of the crash
investigation someone will be blamed, that's the easiest way and I also have
some experience on that from my freelancing at our National Crash
Investigation Board for some time.
It is time to really think about whether we should really be happy about the
cheap tickets that air traffic deregulation (which started some 30 Years
ago) has revealed. Time is overdue to go one step back.

Sorry to be that clear on that subject. I don't want to start an endless
threat again. But I feel that it had to be said.
--
Oskar Wagner
(retired Captain)

Remember, in the great scheme of things, we're all small potatoes....

"Ibby (The Artist Formally Known as Chris)"
<chris@mwapartnership(NOSPAM).co.uk> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:D dssur$2rs$1@nwrdmz01.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
>A good site for disaster info is http://www.airdisaster.com. It mentions
>that captain not in cockpit. Could he then be found at fault for leaving
>his post in an emergency and receive a posthumous disciplinary hearing.
>Maybe Oskar can shed light on procedures.
>
> Ibby
>
> "Gary L." <noone@123.net> wrote in message
> news:3sudnZ2dnZ1OCWzcnZ2dnYl7nN6dnZ2dRVn-yJ2dnZ0@comcast.com...
>> Cool, where'd you find this report?
>>
>> "Paul R" <rudmans@xtra.co.nz> wrote in message
>> news:X8jMe.3319$iM2.297447@news.xtra.co.nz...
>>> Date: 14 AUG 2005
>>> Time: 12:03 local time
>>> Type: Boeing 737-31S
>>> Operator: Helios Airways
>>> Registration: 5B-DBY
>>> Msn / C/n: 29099/2982
>>> Year built: 1998
>>> Crew: 6 fatalities / 6 on board
>>> Passengers: 115 fatalities / 115 on board
>>> Total: 121 fatalities / 121 on board
>>> Airplane damage: Written off
>>> Location: 2 km from Grammatikos (Greece)
>>> Phase: En route
>>> Nature: International Scheduled Passenger
>>> Departure airport: Larnaca Airport (LCA)
>>> Destination airport: Athens-Eleftherios Venizelos International Airport
>>> (ATH)
>>> Flight number: 522
>>> Helios' Flight 522 departed Larnaca at 09:07 on a scheduled 1 hour and
>>> 23
>>> minute flight to Athens, Greece. After an intermidiate stop there, it
>>> was to
>>> have continued on to Prague, Czech Republic.
>>> The fight, cleared for an en route altitude of FL340, reportedly
>>> notified
>>> Cypriotic controllers that they had some problems with the air
>>> conditioning
>>> system. The 737 entered Greek air space about 09:37, but efforts by air
>>> traffic controllers to contact the pilots were futile. Then, at 10:25
>>> the
>>> Greek Civil Aviation Authority notified the Defense Ministry's national
>>> search and rescue center. At 10:55 two Greek F-16 fighter planes were
>>> scrambled from the Néa Anghialos air base. About half an hour later the
>>> F-16's intercepted the airliner over the island of Kea. The F-16 pilots
>>> reported that they were not able to observe the captain, while the first
>>> officer seemed to be unconscious. They continued to track the flight
>>> until
>>> it crashed in mountainous terrain some 40 km North of Athens.
>>> Reportedly the same Boeing 737, 5B-DBY, suffered a loss of cabin
>>> pressure on
>>> December 20, 2004 during a flight from Warsaw to Larnaca. Three
>>> passengers
>>> needed medical treatment after landing in Larnaca.
>>> --------------------------------------------
>>> AIRCRAFT PROFILE BOEING 737
>>> * Last hull-loss 737-300 accident : 03 JAN 2004 Flash Airlines SU-ZCF,
>>> off
>>> Sharm el Sheikh - 148 fatalities
>>> * Total number of Boeing 737 hull-losses: 118 (108 accidents, 4
>>> hijackings,
>>> 6 other occurrences (sabotage, ground fire etc.)), of which 64 losses
>>> were
>>> fatal
>>> * Total number of Boeing 737-300 hull-losses: 13 (13 accidents)
>>> * 8th worst 737 accident
>>> * 4th worst 737-300 accident
>>> * Survival rate for all fatal B737 accidents: on average 27,8% of all
>>> occupants survived fatal accidents
>>> --------------------------------------------
>>> OPERATOR PROFILE HELIOS AIRWAYS
>>> Private Cypriotic airline
>>> * founded: 1999
>>> * fleet: Boeing 737-300, 737-800
>>> * first hull-loss accident
>>> --------------------------------------------
>>> COUNTRY PROFILE GREECE
>>> * Last airliner hull-loss accident: 04 JUL 2000 Tu-154B2 of Malev at
>>> Thessaloniki - 0 fatalities
>>> * Last fatal airliner hull-loss accident: 17 DEC 1997 Yakovlev 42 of
>>> Aerosweet at Thessaloniki - 70 fatalities
>>> * Worst airliner hull-loss accident
>>> * The country is rated Category 1 (meeting ICAO standards) in FAA's
>>> International Aviation Safety Assessment Program (IASA)
>>> COUNTRY PROFILE CYPRUS
>>> * First fatal hull-loss accident involving a Cypriotic airliner
>>> * The country is not yet rated in FAA's International Aviation Safety
>>> Assessment Program (IASA)
>>> --------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> "Ibby (The Artist Formally Known as Chris)"
>>> <chris@mwapartnership(NOSPAM).co.uk> wrote in message
>>> news:D dsbrf$jq7$1@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
>>>> Does anyone think that the 2 passengers reportedly struggling with the
>>>> controls, as seen by F16 pilots, of the Helios flight may have caused
>>>> the
>>>> crash into a mountainside. I presume the 737 would have been flying
>>>> with
>>>> the FMC engaged. Could they have deactivated it somehow or did the
>>> aircraft
>>>> break apart whilst still airborne? I read one report that the captain
>>> left
>>>> the flightdeck to check on situation in the cabin and was overcome by
>>>> the
>>>> lack of pressure/oxygen - surely this wouldn't have been allowed. I
>>>> know
>>>> pilots have a dedicated oxygen supply in case of an emergency but we
>>>> may
>>>> require them wear a mask all the time like fighter pilots.
>>>>
>>>> What do you guys think. I'm surprised there has been so little debate
>>>> on
>>>> this recent tragedy.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Ibby (The artist formally known as Chris)
>>>>
>>>> Athlon64 3000+
>>>> 512Mb PC3200 Ram
>>>> Radeon 9800 Pro (128 Mb)
>>>> 80G H-D
>>>> 60G H-D
>>>> Saitek Evo Force Flightstick
>>>> Windows XP SP2
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
Anonymous
August 17, 2005 2:26:04 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

When my boy and I visited the Boeing flight museum, we walked under the
wheel well of a 737 on display and looked up. It was a maze of hydraulic
and other pathways....bewildering really and you can understand you were
seeing a tiny part of the whole system. My boy did a double take and it did
not take a genius to figure out that you sure want a group of qualified
people looking at all the equipment regularly and keeping them going right.
I suspect the pressures of the increased fuel costs are not helping matters.

Personally, I worry about flying on the cheap.

One of the Mercury astronauts (I think it was John Glen) quipped that he was
riding on a space vehicle made by the lowest bidder. He was indicating that
it can make one fell a bit insecure :) 
Mike

"Oskar Wagner" <rengaw@swissonline.ch> wrote in message
news:D dt599$2pa$1@news.hispeed.ch...
> Guys, as you might have noticed I tried to stand out of all this chatting
> and presuming as it is absolutely useless in my view. The most important
> thing about all recent crashes has anyway never been discussed here. We
> all should feel guilty and rethink the today's policy to be proud of
> finding the cheapest ticket for our personal advantage. The chain of error
> which is inherent in all incidents and accidents has today a very weak
> link which is the aircrews being under tremendous pressure for most
> economic operation inorder to cut any additional costs at almous any
> "price". Of course it is very simple to say that "safety first" is alwas
> the ruling principle. I know from my own experience how fast this priciple
> can be weakened by stress applied from "above". It starts right at the
> beginning of aircrew selection. Why employing high qualified pilots if you
> can hire some - with of course the necessary papers - at a cheaper price?
> Who cares about personal qualification if the papers show qualification
> for the A/C to be flown? Operating an A/C on MRL (Minimum Requirement
> List) is something that should be done in exceptional cases only but why
> not a few times more if maintenance costs can be downed this way? And to
> burn the nowadays precious fuel whend doing a missed approach or a
> diversion would maybe lead to some unpleasant interrogations in the Chief
> Pilots office..... and ... and....
> Believe me, I know exactly what I'm speaking of. Even so-called "serious"
> airlines are not spared by this threat. Of course at the end of the crash
> investigation someone will be blamed, that's the easiest way and I also
> have some experience on that from my freelancing at our National Crash
> Investigation Board for some time.
> It is time to really think about whether we should really be happy about
> the cheap tickets that air traffic deregulation (which started some 30
> Years ago) has revealed. Time is overdue to go one step back.
>
> Sorry to be that clear on that subject. I don't want to start an endless
> threat again. But I feel that it had to be said.
> --
> Oskar Wagner
> (retired Captain)
>
> Remember, in the great scheme of things, we're all small potatoes....
>
> "Ibby (The Artist Formally Known as Chris)"
> <chris@mwapartnership(NOSPAM).co.uk> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> news:D dssur$2rs$1@nwrdmz01.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
>>A good site for disaster info is http://www.airdisaster.com. It mentions
>>that captain not in cockpit. Could he then be found at fault for leaving
>>his post in an emergency and receive a posthumous disciplinary hearing.
>>Maybe Oskar can shed light on procedures.
>>
>> Ibby
>>
>> "Gary L." <noone@123.net> wrote in message
>> news:3sudnZ2dnZ1OCWzcnZ2dnYl7nN6dnZ2dRVn-yJ2dnZ0@comcast.com...
>>> Cool, where'd you find this report?
>>>
>>> "Paul R" <rudmans@xtra.co.nz> wrote in message
>>> news:X8jMe.3319$iM2.297447@news.xtra.co.nz...
>>>> Date: 14 AUG 2005
>>>> Time: 12:03 local time
>>>> Type: Boeing 737-31S
>>>> Operator: Helios Airways
>>>> Registration: 5B-DBY
>>>> Msn / C/n: 29099/2982
>>>> Year built: 1998
>>>> Crew: 6 fatalities / 6 on board
>>>> Passengers: 115 fatalities / 115 on board
>>>> Total: 121 fatalities / 121 on board
>>>> Airplane damage: Written off
>>>> Location: 2 km from Grammatikos (Greece)
>>>> Phase: En route
>>>> Nature: International Scheduled Passenger
>>>> Departure airport: Larnaca Airport (LCA)
>>>> Destination airport: Athens-Eleftherios Venizelos International Airport
>>>> (ATH)
>>>> Flight number: 522
>>>> Helios' Flight 522 departed Larnaca at 09:07 on a scheduled 1 hour and
>>>> 23
>>>> minute flight to Athens, Greece. After an intermidiate stop there, it
>>>> was to
>>>> have continued on to Prague, Czech Republic.
>>>> The fight, cleared for an en route altitude of FL340, reportedly
>>>> notified
>>>> Cypriotic controllers that they had some problems with the air
>>>> conditioning
>>>> system. The 737 entered Greek air space about 09:37, but efforts by air
>>>> traffic controllers to contact the pilots were futile. Then, at 10:25
>>>> the
>>>> Greek Civil Aviation Authority notified the Defense Ministry's national
>>>> search and rescue center. At 10:55 two Greek F-16 fighter planes were
>>>> scrambled from the Néa Anghialos air base. About half an hour later the
>>>> F-16's intercepted the airliner over the island of Kea. The F-16 pilots
>>>> reported that they were not able to observe the captain, while the
>>>> first
>>>> officer seemed to be unconscious. They continued to track the flight
>>>> until
>>>> it crashed in mountainous terrain some 40 km North of Athens.
>>>> Reportedly the same Boeing 737, 5B-DBY, suffered a loss of cabin
>>>> pressure on
>>>> December 20, 2004 during a flight from Warsaw to Larnaca. Three
>>>> passengers
>>>> needed medical treatment after landing in Larnaca.
>>>> --------------------------------------------
>>>> AIRCRAFT PROFILE BOEING 737
>>>> * Last hull-loss 737-300 accident : 03 JAN 2004 Flash Airlines SU-ZCF,
>>>> off
>>>> Sharm el Sheikh - 148 fatalities
>>>> * Total number of Boeing 737 hull-losses: 118 (108 accidents, 4
>>>> hijackings,
>>>> 6 other occurrences (sabotage, ground fire etc.)), of which 64 losses
>>>> were
>>>> fatal
>>>> * Total number of Boeing 737-300 hull-losses: 13 (13 accidents)
>>>> * 8th worst 737 accident
>>>> * 4th worst 737-300 accident
>>>> * Survival rate for all fatal B737 accidents: on average 27,8% of all
>>>> occupants survived fatal accidents
>>>> --------------------------------------------
>>>> OPERATOR PROFILE HELIOS AIRWAYS
>>>> Private Cypriotic airline
>>>> * founded: 1999
>>>> * fleet: Boeing 737-300, 737-800
>>>> * first hull-loss accident
>>>> --------------------------------------------
>>>> COUNTRY PROFILE GREECE
>>>> * Last airliner hull-loss accident: 04 JUL 2000 Tu-154B2 of Malev at
>>>> Thessaloniki - 0 fatalities
>>>> * Last fatal airliner hull-loss accident: 17 DEC 1997 Yakovlev 42 of
>>>> Aerosweet at Thessaloniki - 70 fatalities
>>>> * Worst airliner hull-loss accident
>>>> * The country is rated Category 1 (meeting ICAO standards) in FAA's
>>>> International Aviation Safety Assessment Program (IASA)
>>>> COUNTRY PROFILE CYPRUS
>>>> * First fatal hull-loss accident involving a Cypriotic airliner
>>>> * The country is not yet rated in FAA's International Aviation Safety
>>>> Assessment Program (IASA)
>>>> --------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> "Ibby (The Artist Formally Known as Chris)"
>>>> <chris@mwapartnership(NOSPAM).co.uk> wrote in message
>>>> news:D dsbrf$jq7$1@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
>>>>> Does anyone think that the 2 passengers reportedly struggling with the
>>>>> controls, as seen by F16 pilots, of the Helios flight may have caused
>>>>> the
>>>>> crash into a mountainside. I presume the 737 would have been flying
>>>>> with
>>>>> the FMC engaged. Could they have deactivated it somehow or did the
>>>> aircraft
>>>>> break apart whilst still airborne? I read one report that the captain
>>>> left
>>>>> the flightdeck to check on situation in the cabin and was overcome by
>>>>> the
>>>>> lack of pressure/oxygen - surely this wouldn't have been allowed. I
>>>>> know
>>>>> pilots have a dedicated oxygen supply in case of an emergency but we
>>>>> may
>>>>> require them wear a mask all the time like fighter pilots.
>>>>>
>>>>> What do you guys think. I'm surprised there has been so little debate
>>>>> on
>>>>> this recent tragedy.
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Ibby (The artist formally known as Chris)
>>>>>
>>>>> Athlon64 3000+
>>>>> 512Mb PC3200 Ram
>>>>> Radeon 9800 Pro (128 Mb)
>>>>> 80G H-D
>>>>> 60G H-D
>>>>> Saitek Evo Force Flightstick
>>>>> Windows XP SP2
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
Anonymous
August 17, 2005 2:26:04 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Serious stuff indeed Oscar and food for thought for all of us.

Iain

"Oskar Wagner" <rengaw@swissonline.ch> wrote in message
news:D dt599$2pa$1@news.hispeed.ch...
> Guys, as you might have noticed I tried to stand out of all this chatting
> and presuming as it is absolutely useless in my view. The most important
> thing about all recent crashes has anyway never been discussed here. We
> all should feel guilty and rethink the today's policy to be proud of
> finding the cheapest ticket for our personal advantage. The chain of error
> which is inherent in all incidents and accidents has today a very weak
> link which is the aircrews being under tremendous pressure for most
> economic operation inorder to cut any additional costs at almous any
> "price". Of course it is very simple to say that "safety first" is alwas
> the ruling principle. I know from my own experience how fast this priciple
> can be weakened by stress applied from "above". It starts right at the
> beginning of aircrew selection. Why employing high qualified pilots if you
> can hire some - with of course the necessary papers - at a cheaper price?
> Who cares about personal qualification if the papers show qualification
> for the A/C to be flown? Operating an A/C on MRL (Minimum Requirement
> List) is something that should be done in exceptional cases only but why
> not a few times more if maintenance costs can be downed this way? And to
> burn the nowadays precious fuel whend doing a missed approach or a
> diversion would maybe lead to some unpleasant interrogations in the Chief
> Pilots office..... and ... and....
> Believe me, I know exactly what I'm speaking of. Even so-called "serious"
> airlines are not spared by this threat. Of course at the end of the crash
> investigation someone will be blamed, that's the easiest way and I also
> have some experience on that from my freelancing at our National Crash
> Investigation Board for some time.
> It is time to really think about whether we should really be happy about
> the cheap tickets that air traffic deregulation (which started some 30
> Years ago) has revealed. Time is overdue to go one step back.
>
> Sorry to be that clear on that subject. I don't want to start an endless
> threat again. But I feel that it had to be said.
> --
Anonymous
August 17, 2005 2:26:05 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"mikepic" <mikepic@insightbb.com> wrote in message
news:BitMe.33021$084.11357@attbi_s22...

> One of the Mercury astronauts (I think it was John Glen) quipped that he
> was riding on a space vehicle made by the lowest bidder. He was
> indicating that it can make one fell a bit insecure :) 

It was actually Walter Schirra an Apollo astronaut who was asked what he
thought about in the last few minutes of countdown while lying strapped in.
He said "I look up at all the switches and dials and remind myself that they
were all supplied by the lowest bidder!"

Iain
Anonymous
August 17, 2005 2:40:59 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Yeah! Thanks for the correct info!
Mike
"Iain Smith" <iainsmith.rugby@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:D dtodd$8iq$1@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
>
> "mikepic" <mikepic@insightbb.com> wrote in message
> news:BitMe.33021$084.11357@attbi_s22...
>
>> One of the Mercury astronauts (I think it was John Glen) quipped that he
>> was riding on a space vehicle made by the lowest bidder. He was
>> indicating that it can make one fell a bit insecure :) 
>
> It was actually Walter Schirra an Apollo astronaut who was asked what he
> thought about in the last few minutes of countdown while lying strapped
> in. He said "I look up at all the switches and dials and remind myself
> that they were all supplied by the lowest bidder!"
>
> Iain
>
Anonymous
August 17, 2005 3:51:45 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

> As a regular holiday visitor to both countries there seems to be little
> animosity shown to each other particularly by the youngsters.
> It might be different on Cyprus though!
> I remember a delayed return flight from Chania in Crete (also an air force
> base) many years ago when the pilot announced we had a slot for 10.00 GMT.
> He went on to say unfortunately GMT stood for Greek Maybe Time...

greek maybe time is a well know phase ;-)

My mum and dad went to Cyprus, and the "boarder" through the old capital is
not too much unlike berlin during the cold war.......Armed guards, houses on
either side with windows bricked up etc.... Not seen it first hand though.
But then my mum and dad never lie.....well apart from that Santa thing that
im still trying to get over.... (im 23) lol
--
From Overlag - Adam Webb
Anonymous
August 17, 2005 12:57:51 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Hi Adam Webb,

Errr, strewth, I hate to have to be the one to tell you, mate, but the
Easter Bunny's not real either! :-)

As far as I know, the Tooth Fairy is, though...

Regards,
John Ward
"Adam Webb" <adam@ajmysecondname.eclipse.co.uk> wrote in message
news:8s2dnZrJc4G985_eRVnyuw@eclipse.net.uk...
>> As a regular holiday visitor to both countries there seems to be little
>> animosity shown to each other particularly by the youngsters.
>> It might be different on Cyprus though!
>> I remember a delayed return flight from Chania in Crete (also an air
>> force base) many years ago when the pilot announced we had a slot for
>> 10.00 GMT.
>> He went on to say unfortunately GMT stood for Greek Maybe Time...
>
> greek maybe time is a well know phase ;-)
>
> My mum and dad went to Cyprus, and the "boarder" through the old capital
> is not too much unlike berlin during the cold war.......Armed guards,
> houses on either side with windows bricked up etc.... Not seen it first
> hand though. But then my mum and dad never lie.....well apart from that
> Santa thing that im still trying to get over.... (im 23) lol
> --
> From Overlag - Adam Webb
>
Anonymous
August 17, 2005 12:57:52 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

> Errr, strewth, I hate to have to be the one to tell you, mate, but the
> Easter Bunny's not real either! :-)
>
> As far as I know, the Tooth Fairy is, though...

i just get the girls to dress up in bunny suits to make me feal better about
that big lie........

--
From Overlag - Adam Webb
Anonymous
August 17, 2005 1:08:03 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

:-)))

JW
"Adam Webb" <adam@ajmysecondname.eclipse.co.uk> wrote in message
news:946dnWkqCpi67J_eRVnyiQ@eclipse.net.uk...
>> Errr, strewth, I hate to have to be the one to tell you, mate, but the
>> Easter Bunny's not real either! :-)
>>
>> As far as I know, the Tooth Fairy is, though...
>
> i just get the girls to dress up in bunny suits to make me feal better
> about that big lie........
>
> --
> From Overlag - Adam Webb
>
Anonymous
August 17, 2005 3:49:33 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Co-pilot was believed to be alive at point of impact, captain still missing
and autopilot was on as per this article.
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/story.jsp?story=...

"Ibby (The Artist Formally Known as Chris)"
<chris@mwapartnership(NOSPAM).co.uk> wrote in message
news:D dsbrf$jq7$1@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
> Does anyone think that the 2 passengers reportedly struggling with the
> controls, as seen by F16 pilots, of the Helios flight may have caused the
> crash into a mountainside. I presume the 737 would have been flying with
> the FMC engaged. Could they have deactivated it somehow or did the
> aircraft break apart whilst still airborne? I read one report that the
> captain left the flightdeck to check on situation in the cabin and was
> overcome by the lack of pressure/oxygen - surely this wouldn't have been
> allowed. I know pilots have a dedicated oxygen supply in case of an
> emergency but we may require them wear a mask all the time like fighter
> pilots.
>
> What do you guys think. I'm surprised there has been so little debate on
> this recent tragedy.
>
> --
> Ibby (The artist formally known as Chris)
>
> Athlon64 3000+
> 512Mb PC3200 Ram
> Radeon 9800 Pro (128 Mb)
> 80G H-D
> 60G H-D
> Saitek Evo Force Flightstick
> Windows XP SP2
>
>
Anonymous
August 17, 2005 4:51:55 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Beech45Whiskey" <pjricc@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:cw3gg15173xj.dlg@ID-259643.user.individual.net...
> Iain Smith <iainsmith.rugby@btinternet.com> wrote:

> What gives with you? Are you a newbie here or something?

No, I've been a regular here for over four years but the fact that you
didn't realise this has got me thinking. I've felt for a while that I don't
fit in with the "clique" that has developed over the last year or so. I
think it's time for me to go! :0))

Iain
Anonymous
August 17, 2005 7:21:20 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Iain Smith" <iainsmith.rugby@btinternet.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> No, I've been a regular here for over four years but the fact that you
> didn't realise this has got me thinking. I've felt for a while that I
> don't fit in with the "clique" that has developed over the last year or
> so. I think it's time for me to go! :0))
>
> Iain
>
>
Well, HE'S obviously a newbie! So just don't think about leaving here. Your
contributions were always very much appreciated. We're not going to be
pushed out of this forum, are we? ;-)) Keep going Iain!!!
--
Oskar Wagner
(retired Captain)

Remember, in the great scheme of things, we're all small potatoes....
Anonymous
August 17, 2005 7:21:21 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

All,

I feel bad now for starting this thread with people now starting to analyse
their attitude towards this group and threatening to leave.
I find this an excellent group with plenty of well edumacated people
(deliberate mistake!) and feel all contributions are useful in getting a
broad spectrum of the minds of the aviation enthusiast.

Ibby

"Oskar Wagner" <rengaw@swissonline.ch> wrote in message
news:D dvdk6$9hg$1@news.hispeed.ch...
> "Iain Smith" <iainsmith.rugby@btinternet.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
>> No, I've been a regular here for over four years but the fact that you
>> didn't realise this has got me thinking. I've felt for a while that I
>> don't fit in with the "clique" that has developed over the last year or
>> so. I think it's time for me to go! :0))
>>
>> Iain
>>
>>
> Well, HE'S obviously a newbie! So just don't think about leaving here.
> Your contributions were always very much appreciated. We're not going to
> be pushed out of this forum, are we? ;-)) Keep going Iain!!!
> --
> Oskar Wagner
> (retired Captain)
>
> Remember, in the great scheme of things, we're all small potatoes....
>
Anonymous
August 17, 2005 7:34:41 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Beech45Whiskey" <pjricc@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1lm19m04kxn3u$.dlg@ID-259643.user.individual.net...
> Iain Smith <iainsmith.rugby@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
>> No, I've been a regular here for over four years but the fact that you
>> didn't realise this has got me thinking.
>
> My comment was in direct response to your last two posts. Perhaps you
> have
> been here for four years but in failing to recognize the international
> breadth of this group, it made me wonder.
>
> You seemed insistent that had this accident occurred in the US, there
> would
> have been more discussion in this particular group. My counter-argument
> was two-fold:
>
> a) This group is made up of a cross-section of the world's countries more
> than any other group I read. Thus, I absolutely do not see how an
> accident
> over the US would have changed the amount of discussion about it here.
>
> b) The aviation groups that do have a heavy US-participation *are*
> discussing this accident. I gave you one to read and someone else posted
> another.
>
>> I've felt for a while that I don't
>> fit in with the "clique" that has developed over the last year or so.
>
> If by clique you mean all of that personal banter that goes on with some
> of
> the regulars, then don't sweat it. For the most part I don't participate
> in that banter either, for numerous trivial reasons.
>
>> I think it's time for me to go! :0))
>
> Do what you must but IMO that is an overly harsh response. You sent
> up two posts that seemed to push some specific agenda. I was simply
> countering that agenda, not looking to push you away.

This does all seem rather un-necessary particularly between two more than
useful contributors to this group.

For what it's worth, I thought Iain's comments were 'tongue in cheek' but
perhaps that is because we live in the same part of the world! That said,
compare this incident to the number and speed of postings relating to the
Toronto incident and he has a point! But not an important point and
certainly not one to fall out over.

By the way, I went on to the rec.aviation group where you correctly pointed
out there is a large discussion going on. I am now a fully fledged expert on
lung function :) )

Chris
Anonymous
August 17, 2005 8:52:37 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Beech45Whiskey" <pjricc@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1464ey93ut469.dlg@ID-259643.user.individual.net...
>> By the way, I went on to the rec.aviation group where you correctly
>> pointed
>> out there is a large discussion going on. I am now a fully fledged expert
>> on
>> lung function :) 
>
> Ain't that the truth.

LOL! And as an asthmatic about to visit the heights (to us Brits anyway) of
Colorado and Utah in 3 weeks time I now understand the physiological
symptoms experienced during my previous visit. Especially 14500 ft Pikes
Peak!

Chris
Anonymous
August 17, 2005 8:52:38 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

According to todays Der Spiegel, here's the latest twist to this
crash. In short:

23 minutes bevor the crash, the plane stopped circling. apparently
someone disconnected the AP and tried to reach Athens for an emergency
landing. The F-16 pilots saw the plane descend from 10,000 meters to
3000 meters and then to around 800 meters over the ocean near Athens.
It then flew toward land and the airport while it gained on altitude
apparently because someone in the cockpit noticed that he was flying
to low. Apparently the plane ran out of fuel at that time and crashed.

-=tom=-
Anonymous
August 17, 2005 10:26:09 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Beech45Whiskey" <pjricc@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1464ey93ut469.dlg@ID-259643.user.individual.net...
> Chris Curtis <chris@nospam.net> wrote:

> Perhaps a few visual clues, such as emoticons, would have been beneficial,
> no?

Peter - if you look back at the the first of my two posts you will see that
I said in brackets "sorry that was naughty but is there a grain of truth?"
As Chris said, it was tongue in cheek but both Tom and yourself seem to have
taken offence. If so then let's put it down to a cultural difference. We
Brits are used to being "got at" - we even do it to ourselves! :0))

Iain
Anonymous
August 17, 2005 10:27:15 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Oskar Wagner" <rengaw@swissonline.ch> wrote in message
news:D dvdk6$9hg$1@news.hispeed.ch...
> Well, HE'S obviously a newbie! So just don't think about leaving here.
> Your contributions were always very much appreciated. We're not going to
> be pushed out of this forum, are we? ;-)) Keep going Iain!!!

Thank you Oskar - much appreciated! :0))

Iain
Anonymous
August 17, 2005 11:41:47 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

email me Gary plz
"Gary L." <noone@123.net> wrote in message
news:3sudnZ2dnZ1OCWzcnZ2dnYl7nN6dnZ2dRVn-yJ2dnZ0@comcast.com...
> Cool, where'd you find this report?
>
> "Paul R" <rudmans@xtra.co.nz> wrote in message
> news:X8jMe.3319$iM2.297447@news.xtra.co.nz...
> > Date: 14 AUG 2005
> > Time: 12:03 local time
> > Type: Boeing 737-31S
> > Operator: Helios Airways
> > Registration: 5B-DBY
> > Msn / C/n: 29099/2982
> > Year built: 1998
> > Crew: 6 fatalities / 6 on board
> > Passengers: 115 fatalities / 115 on board
> > Total: 121 fatalities / 121 on board
> > Airplane damage: Written off
> > Location: 2 km from Grammatikos (Greece)
> > Phase: En route
> > Nature: International Scheduled Passenger
> > Departure airport: Larnaca Airport (LCA)
> > Destination airport: Athens-Eleftherios Venizelos International Airport
> > (ATH)
> > Flight number: 522
> > Helios' Flight 522 departed Larnaca at 09:07 on a scheduled 1 hour and
23
> > minute flight to Athens, Greece. After an intermidiate stop there, it
was
> > to
> > have continued on to Prague, Czech Republic.
> > The fight, cleared for an en route altitude of FL340, reportedly
notified
> > Cypriotic controllers that they had some problems with the air
> > conditioning
> > system. The 737 entered Greek air space about 09:37, but efforts by air
> > traffic controllers to contact the pilots were futile. Then, at 10:25
the
> > Greek Civil Aviation Authority notified the Defense Ministry's national
> > search and rescue center. At 10:55 two Greek F-16 fighter planes were
> > scrambled from the Néa Anghialos air base. About half an hour later the
> > F-16's intercepted the airliner over the island of Kea. The F-16 pilots
> > reported that they were not able to observe the captain, while the first
> > officer seemed to be unconscious. They continued to track the flight
until
> > it crashed in mountainous terrain some 40 km North of Athens.
> > Reportedly the same Boeing 737, 5B-DBY, suffered a loss of cabin
pressure
> > on
> > December 20, 2004 during a flight from Warsaw to Larnaca. Three
passengers
> > needed medical treatment after landing in Larnaca.
> > --------------------------------------------
> > AIRCRAFT PROFILE BOEING 737
> > * Last hull-loss 737-300 accident : 03 JAN 2004 Flash Airlines SU-ZCF,
> > off
> > Sharm el Sheikh - 148 fatalities
> > * Total number of Boeing 737 hull-losses: 118 (108 accidents, 4
> > hijackings,
> > 6 other occurrences (sabotage, ground fire etc.)), of which 64 losses
were
> > fatal
> > * Total number of Boeing 737-300 hull-losses: 13 (13 accidents)
> > * 8th worst 737 accident
> > * 4th worst 737-300 accident
> > * Survival rate for all fatal B737 accidents: on average 27,8% of all
> > occupants survived fatal accidents
> > --------------------------------------------
> > OPERATOR PROFILE HELIOS AIRWAYS
> > Private Cypriotic airline
> > * founded: 1999
> > * fleet: Boeing 737-300, 737-800
> > * first hull-loss accident
> > --------------------------------------------
> > COUNTRY PROFILE GREECE
> > * Last airliner hull-loss accident: 04 JUL 2000 Tu-154B2 of Malev at
> > Thessaloniki - 0 fatalities
> > * Last fatal airliner hull-loss accident: 17 DEC 1997 Yakovlev 42 of
> > Aerosweet at Thessaloniki - 70 fatalities
> > * Worst airliner hull-loss accident
> > * The country is rated Category 1 (meeting ICAO standards) in FAA's
> > International Aviation Safety Assessment Program (IASA)
> > COUNTRY PROFILE CYPRUS
> > * First fatal hull-loss accident involving a Cypriotic airliner
> > * The country is not yet rated in FAA's International Aviation Safety
> > Assessment Program (IASA)
> > --------------------------------------------
> >
> > "Ibby (The Artist Formally Known as Chris)"
> > <chris@mwapartnership(NOSPAM).co.uk> wrote in message
> > news:D dsbrf$jq7$1@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
> >> Does anyone think that the 2 passengers reportedly struggling with the
> >> controls, as seen by F16 pilots, of the Helios flight may have caused
the
> >> crash into a mountainside. I presume the 737 would have been flying
with
> >> the FMC engaged. Could they have deactivated it somehow or did the
> > aircraft
> >> break apart whilst still airborne? I read one report that the captain
> > left
> >> the flightdeck to check on situation in the cabin and was overcome by
the
> >> lack of pressure/oxygen - surely this wouldn't have been allowed. I
know
> >> pilots have a dedicated oxygen supply in case of an emergency but we
may
> >> require them wear a mask all the time like fighter pilots.
> >>
> >> What do you guys think. I'm surprised there has been so little debate
on
> >> this recent tragedy.
> >>
> >> --
> >> Ibby (The artist formally known as Chris)
> >>
> >> Athlon64 3000+
> >> 512Mb PC3200 Ram
> >> Radeon 9800 Pro (128 Mb)
> >> 80G H-D
> >> 60G H-D
> >> Saitek Evo Force Flightstick
> >> Windows XP SP2
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
Anonymous
August 17, 2005 11:50:01 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

http://aviation-safety.net/index.php

"Gary L." <noone@123.net> wrote in message
news:3sudnZ2dnZ1OCWzcnZ2dnYl7nN6dnZ2dRVn-yJ2dnZ0@comcast.com...
> Cool, where'd you find this report?
>
> "Paul R" <rudmans@xtra.co.nz> wrote in message
> news:X8jMe.3319$iM2.297447@news.xtra.co.nz...
> > Date: 14 AUG 2005
> > Time: 12:03 local time
> > Type: Boeing 737-31S
> > Operator: Helios Airways
> > Registration: 5B-DBY
> > Msn / C/n: 29099/2982
> > Year built: 1998
> > Crew: 6 fatalities / 6 on board
> > Passengers: 115 fatalities / 115 on board
> > Total: 121 fatalities / 121 on board
> > Airplane damage: Written off
> > Location: 2 km from Grammatikos (Greece)
> > Phase: En route
> > Nature: International Scheduled Passenger
> > Departure airport: Larnaca Airport (LCA)
> > Destination airport: Athens-Eleftherios Venizelos International Airport
> > (ATH)
> > Flight number: 522
> > Helios' Flight 522 departed Larnaca at 09:07 on a scheduled 1 hour and
23
> > minute flight to Athens, Greece. After an intermidiate stop there, it
was
> > to
> > have continued on to Prague, Czech Republic.
> > The fight, cleared for an en route altitude of FL340, reportedly
notified
> > Cypriotic controllers that they had some problems with the air
> > conditioning
> > system. The 737 entered Greek air space about 09:37, but efforts by air
> > traffic controllers to contact the pilots were futile. Then, at 10:25
the
> > Greek Civil Aviation Authority notified the Defense Ministry's national
> > search and rescue center. At 10:55 two Greek F-16 fighter planes were
> > scrambled from the Néa Anghialos air base. About half an hour later the
> > F-16's intercepted the airliner over the island of Kea. The F-16 pilots
> > reported that they were not able to observe the captain, while the first
> > officer seemed to be unconscious. They continued to track the flight
until
> > it crashed in mountainous terrain some 40 km North of Athens.
> > Reportedly the same Boeing 737, 5B-DBY, suffered a loss of cabin
pressure
> > on
> > December 20, 2004 during a flight from Warsaw to Larnaca. Three
passengers
> > needed medical treatment after landing in Larnaca.
> > --------------------------------------------
> > AIRCRAFT PROFILE BOEING 737
> > * Last hull-loss 737-300 accident : 03 JAN 2004 Flash Airlines SU-ZCF,
> > off
> > Sharm el Sheikh - 148 fatalities
> > * Total number of Boeing 737 hull-losses: 118 (108 accidents, 4
> > hijackings,
> > 6 other occurrences (sabotage, ground fire etc.)), of which 64 losses
were
> > fatal
> > * Total number of Boeing 737-300 hull-losses: 13 (13 accidents)
> > * 8th worst 737 accident
> > * 4th worst 737-300 accident
> > * Survival rate for all fatal B737 accidents: on average 27,8% of all
> > occupants survived fatal accidents
> > --------------------------------------------
> > OPERATOR PROFILE HELIOS AIRWAYS
> > Private Cypriotic airline
> > * founded: 1999
> > * fleet: Boeing 737-300, 737-800
> > * first hull-loss accident
> > --------------------------------------------
> > COUNTRY PROFILE GREECE
> > * Last airliner hull-loss accident: 04 JUL 2000 Tu-154B2 of Malev at
> > Thessaloniki - 0 fatalities
> > * Last fatal airliner hull-loss accident: 17 DEC 1997 Yakovlev 42 of
> > Aerosweet at Thessaloniki - 70 fatalities
> > * Worst airliner hull-loss accident
> > * The country is rated Category 1 (meeting ICAO standards) in FAA's
> > International Aviation Safety Assessment Program (IASA)
> > COUNTRY PROFILE CYPRUS
> > * First fatal hull-loss accident involving a Cypriotic airliner
> > * The country is not yet rated in FAA's International Aviation Safety
> > Assessment Program (IASA)
> > --------------------------------------------
> >
> > "Ibby (The Artist Formally Known as Chris)"
> > <chris@mwapartnership(NOSPAM).co.uk> wrote in message
> > news:D dsbrf$jq7$1@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
> >> Does anyone think that the 2 passengers reportedly struggling with the
> >> controls, as seen by F16 pilots, of the Helios flight may have caused
the
> >> crash into a mountainside. I presume the 737 would have been flying
with
> >> the FMC engaged. Could they have deactivated it somehow or did the
> > aircraft
> >> break apart whilst still airborne? I read one report that the captain
> > left
> >> the flightdeck to check on situation in the cabin and was overcome by
the
> >> lack of pressure/oxygen - surely this wouldn't have been allowed. I
know
> >> pilots have a dedicated oxygen supply in case of an emergency but we
may
> >> require them wear a mask all the time like fighter pilots.
> >>
> >> What do you guys think. I'm surprised there has been so little debate
on
> >> this recent tragedy.
> >>
> >> --
> >> Ibby (The artist formally known as Chris)
> >>
> >> Athlon64 3000+
> >> 512Mb PC3200 Ram
> >> Radeon 9800 Pro (128 Mb)
> >> 80G H-D
> >> 60G H-D
> >> Saitek Evo Force Flightstick
> >> Windows XP SP2
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
August 18, 2005 12:01:58 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Iain Smith"
> I've felt for a while that I don't fit in with the
> "clique" that has developed over the last year or so. I
> think it's time for me to go! :0))

clique - exclusive group: a close group of friends or coworkers with similar
interests and goals, whom outsiders regard as excluding them.

Iain, I'm offended by your use of the term "clique" for this group. I find
this group to be one of the most incredibly open and accepting groups of
people I've ever come across.

Dallas
Anonymous
August 18, 2005 12:55:37 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Tom Orle wrote:
> According to todays Der Spiegel, here's the latest twist to this
> crash. In short:
>
> 23 minutes bevor the crash, the plane stopped circling. apparently
> someone disconnected the AP and tried to reach Athens for an emergency
> landing. The F-16 pilots saw the plane descend from 10,000 meters to
> 3000 meters and then to around 800 meters over the ocean near Athens.
> It then flew toward land and the airport while it gained on altitude
> apparently because someone in the cockpit noticed that he was flying
> to low. Apparently the plane ran out of fuel at that time and crashed.
>
> -=tom=-
>
Right Tom, I just read it as well. Other sources said (I think
yesterday already) that the autopsy of about 30 passengers resulted
in strong indications that they still had been alive when the a/c
crashed.
This accident seems to be one of the more mysterious ones.
--
Regards
Axel
August 18, 2005 1:36:56 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Iain Smith wrote:

> "Beech45Whiskey" <pjricc@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:cw3gg15173xj.dlg@ID-259643.user.individual.net...
>
>>Iain Smith <iainsmith.rugby@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
>
>>What gives with you? Are you a newbie here or something?
>
>
> No, I've been a regular here for over four years but the fact that you
> didn't realise this has got me thinking. I've felt for a while that I don't
> fit in with the "clique" that has developed over the last year or so. I
> think it's time for me to go! :0))
>
> Iain
>
>
>

Sheeeeet. I'm the newbee. I bore people so much with my pictures that
it just *seems* that I have been here too long. :) 

--

boB,
SAG 70

U.S. Army Aviation (retired)
Central Texas - 5NM West of Gray Army Airfield (KGRK)
Anonymous
August 18, 2005 1:38:29 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

> Iain, I'm offended by your use of the term "clique" for this group.
> I find this group to be one of the most incredibly open and accepting
> groups of people I've ever come across.
>
> Dallas

....and cat lovers too :-)


--
Cheers
Quilly
August 18, 2005 1:38:30 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Quilljar wrote:
>> Iain, I'm offended by your use of the term "clique" for this group.
>> I find this group to be one of the most incredibly open and accepting
>> groups of people I've ever come across.
>>
>> Dallas
>
> ...and cat lovers too :-)

Oh yeah!! Especially with a nice hollandaise sauce!!!! d:->))
!