Why does the Espon 2200 use colored inks to produce muddy ..

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

For my father's 70th birthday I prepared an exhibit of photos from his
life. This project involved scanning hundreds of old photos from
albums, cleaning them up and reprinting them as 8x10 prints. For the
b/w photos I scanned them as 8 bit grayscale images, then when I
cleaned them up in photoshop I verified that they were still grayscale.
Since the image had NO "color" information, I'm really baffled as to
why the Epson 2200 thinks it needs to eat up colored ink printing these
images.

If this process produced great images I wouldn't complain, but it
doesn't.

The resulting images are muddy, the color cast is clearly obvious. In
the end I resorted to checking the "use black ink only" option in the
printer preferences, and ignoring Epson's warning that this was
"unsuitable for b/w photos" as it was the ONLY way I could get the
Epson to stop using colored inks and producing *very* unsuitable muddy
prints. I spent an hour on the phone with Epson technical support and
the technician had me trying other settings including "monochrome" - I
thought this had fixed the problem until I printed the 21 step
grayscale image and found pink in the lighter gray fields and blue in
the darker gray fields.

My main gripe is why should I have to go fiddle with these different
printer preference settings *at all* when the image file has NO color
data? Why does the printer think that it should be using colored ink
when the file data says "all of these pixels are a mix of black and
white only"?

I've asked this question before and never received an answer that makes
sense.

I'm about ready to send this printer back to Epson for "service" (or
replacement if it comes to that), as I find this behavior unacceptable.


TIA

jc
68 answers Last reply
More about espon 2200 colored inks produce muddy
  1. Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    In article <1110473918.524581.5570@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
    "JC Dill" <jcdill@gmail.com> wrote:

    > [...]
    > Since the image had NO "color" information, I'm really baffled as to
    > why the Epson 2200 thinks it needs to eat up colored ink printing these
    > images.

    Because the colour inks give the print engine greater range and
    flexibility in simulating greyscale. Combinations of the colour and
    black inks can obviously produce a decent range of greys, and -- at
    least for me -- do so, with enough care.

    > If this process produced great images I wouldn't complain, but it
    > doesn't.

    Well, *your* process doesn't seem to be producing great images, but that
    doesn't mean the 2200 can't produce some pretty damn good B&W images
    with a suitable colour-managed workflow. I do B&W with the 2200 (and now
    the 4000) and while the results aren't always as good as I used to get
    in a darkroom, they're pretty damn good (the 2200 seems to be better
    than the 4000 at the moment, but I think that's due to the 4000's
    profiles being a little out). B&W is definitely iffier than colour with
    inkjets, but it's getting pretty close.

    The real problem is that the 2200 needs good colour management and
    attention to things like profiles -- as you discovered, you can't just
    throw a greyscale image at it and have it work every time. I actually do
    all my B&W editing in a decent colour space (rather than greyscale), and
    the results are cast-free and not "muddy". But that's my own
    idiosyncracy.

    If you're using an accurate colour-managed workflow (using all the
    correct profiles, etc.) and you're still getting casts, there may in
    fact be something wrong with the printer. But the fact that it's using
    colour ink as well as B&W while printing greyscale isn't a problem, it's
    a feature. One that no doubt helps sell ink cartridges, but still an
    understandable feature.

    > The resulting images are muddy, the color cast is clearly obvious.

    [...]

    > My main gripe is why should I have to go fiddle with these different
    > printer preference settings *at all* when the image file has NO color
    > data? Why does the printer think that it should be using colored ink
    > when the file data says "all of these pixels are a mix of black and
    > white only"?
    >
    > I've asked this question before and never received an answer that makes
    > sense.
    >
    > I'm about ready to send this printer back to Epson for "service" (or
    > replacement if it comes to that), as I find this behavior unacceptable.

    I'd stop listening to the Epson people -- some of whom *do* know a lot
    about this, but you'll probably never get to talk to them :-) -- and
    keep bashing away at this printer (erm, not literally). In my
    experience, the top end Epsons are worth it, especially the 2200, which
    I've used for literally thousands of B&W prints, for clients or for
    myself. It's a nice printer -- and and the prints lining my studio or on
    clients' walls, etc., suggest it's capable of at least decent work.

    Hamish
  2. Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    JC Dill wrote:
    > For my father's 70th birthday I prepared an exhibit of photos from his
    > life. This project involved scanning hundreds of old photos from
    > albums, cleaning them up and reprinting them as 8x10 prints. For the
    > b/w photos I scanned them as 8 bit grayscale images, then when I
    > cleaned them up in photoshop I verified that they were still grayscale.
    > Since the image had NO "color" information, I'm really baffled as to
    > why the Epson 2200 thinks it needs to eat up colored ink printing these
    > images.
    >
    > If this process produced great images I wouldn't complain, but it
    > doesn't.
    >
    > The resulting images are muddy, the color cast is clearly obvious. In
    > the end I resorted to checking the "use black ink only" option in the
    > printer preferences, and ignoring Epson's warning that this was
    > "unsuitable for b/w photos" as it was the ONLY way I could get the
    > Epson to stop using colored inks and producing *very* unsuitable muddy
    > prints. I spent an hour on the phone with Epson technical support and
    > the technician had me trying other settings including "monochrome" - I
    > thought this had fixed the problem until I printed the 21 step
    > grayscale image and found pink in the lighter gray fields and blue in
    > the darker gray fields.
    >
    > My main gripe is why should I have to go fiddle with these different
    > printer preference settings *at all* when the image file has NO color
    > data? Why does the printer think that it should be using colored ink
    > when the file data says "all of these pixels are a mix of black and
    > white only"?
    >
    > I've asked this question before and never received an answer that makes
    > sense.
    >
    > I'm about ready to send this printer back to Epson for "service" (or
    > replacement if it comes to that), as I find this behavior unacceptable.
    >
    >
    > TIA
    >
    > jc
    >

    This is a driver issue. If your driver doesn't have a B&W mode, that
    uses only the black ink, then you will get a mixture of the other
    colors, and if you look closely, will notice a distinct green tinge to
    the picture. Don't blame Epson, it is quite common among color printers.


    --
    Ron Hunter rphunter@charter.net
  3. Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    "JC Dill" <jcdill@gmail.com> wrote in message
    news:1110473918.524581.5570@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...

    > My main gripe is why should I have to go fiddle with these different
    > printer preference settings *at all* when the image file has NO color
    > data?

    Most printers have just one black cart and have to use "tricks" to make
    shades of grey. One way is to use a pattern of dots like a newspaper but
    this reduces resolution. Most printers use a mixture of colours to "help"
    make shades of grey without reducing resolution. Some printers do a good job
    of this and produce neutral B/W prints, others have a warm or cold tone or
    even a positive colour tint. You can eliminate the cast by selecting B/W
    only but you loose resolution. Hence Epsons comment.

    Epson added a light grey to the 2200/2100 to try and improve the B/W
    capability but it can only do so much. To improve matters you need to
    carefully tune the settings of your printer.

    Try this site for tips on how to get the best B/W out of it...

    http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/printers/2200-bw.shtml

    http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/printers/2200-techniques.shtml

    http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/printers/2200black.shtml
  4. Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    On 10 Mar 2005 08:58:38 -0800, "JC Dill" <jcdill@gmail.com> wrote:

    >For my father's 70th birthday I prepared an exhibit of photos from his
    >life. This project involved scanning hundreds of old photos from
    >albums, cleaning them up and reprinting them as 8x10 prints. For the
    >b/w photos I scanned them as 8 bit grayscale images, then when I
    >cleaned them up in photoshop I verified that they were still grayscale.
    > Since the image had NO "color" information, I'm really baffled as to
    >why the Epson 2200 thinks it needs to eat up colored ink printing these
    >images.

    If you force the printer to use just black ink it'll look even worse,
    believe me. It does this for resolution/tonal depth reasons.

    >If this process produced great images I wouldn't complain, but it
    >doesn't.

    I'm not going to waste your or my time telling you all the stuff you
    can try to make it better because you may well never be satisfied
    (many people aren't). Here's how you can get perfect 8x10 B&W's on
    decent resin-coated professional photographic paper for $2.49 each.
    200 Photos will cost about $500, but dad's worth it isn't he? And when
    he pops off, you'll get to keep the collection.

    http://www.mpix.com

    >The resulting images are muddy, the color cast is clearly obvious. In
    >the end I resorted to checking the "use black ink only" option in the
    >printer preferences, and ignoring Epson's warning that this was
    >"unsuitable for b/w photos" as it was the ONLY way I could get the
    >Epson to stop using colored inks and producing *very* unsuitable muddy
    >prints.

    Ah, so you did try that. Ugly eh?

    > I spent an hour on the phone with Epson technical support and
    >the technician had me trying other settings including "monochrome" - I
    >thought this had fixed the problem until I printed the 21 step
    >grayscale image and found pink in the lighter gray fields and blue in
    >the darker gray fields.

    Yep.

    >My main gripe is why should I have to go fiddle with these different
    >printer preference settings *at all* when the image file has NO color
    >data? Why does the printer think that it should be using colored ink
    >when the file data says "all of these pixels are a mix of black and
    >white only"?

    It can't dither the black as smoothly is it can by mixing colors to
    give you the tonal range you need. If the printer was armed with a
    black cartridge plus 3 levels of gray (instead of CYM) then it could
    do a decent job.

    HEY, SOMEONE SHOULD MAKE THIS CARTRIDGE! - Just make 3 or 5 pigment
    inks that have the same tonal density as the Yellow, Magenta and Cyan,
    (more in 6 color systems) but keep them neutral gray and you'll get
    people buying a second printer just for B&W - no mods to the driver
    required.

    >I've asked this question before and never received an answer that makes
    >sense.

    Mine probably doesn't either. It doesn't matter, use mpix. Compare to
    paper and color ink costs for 200 sheets, mpix starts to look mighty
    good value, and the prints look infinitely better (full bleed too).

    Okay, if you really want to know, here is an article on why they use
    the color inks:

    Profits.

    (kidding)

    here it is...

    http://www.piezography.com/shutterbug1.html

    >I'm about ready to send this printer back to Epson for "service" (or
    >replacement if it comes to that), as I find this behavior unacceptable.

    As do many.

    --
    Owamanga!
    http://www.pbase.com/owamanga
  5. Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    Owamanga wrote:

    > HEY, SOMEONE SHOULD MAKE THIS CARTRIDGE! - Just make 3 or 5 pigment
    > inks that have the same tonal density as the Yellow, Magenta and Cyan,
    > (more in 6 color systems) but keep them neutral gray and you'll get
    > people buying a second printer just for B&W - no mods to the driver
    > required.


    It's been done. Search for limited-gamut inksets.
    Lyson has them, and I think maybe MIS. Mostly for
    Epsons, though.


    rafe b.
    http://www.terrapinphoto.com
  6. Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    In rec.photo.digital JC Dill <jcdill@gmail.com> wrote:

    > My main gripe is why should I have to go fiddle with these different
    > printer preference settings *at all* when the image file has NO
    > color data? Why does the printer think that it should be using
    > colored ink when the file data says "all of these pixels are a mix
    > of black and white only"?

    Because to use only the black ink is much worse. The coloured inks
    give you much better tonality.

    > I've asked this question before and never received an answer that
    > makes sense.

    OK, here's an answer that makes sense: making perfectly neutral
    greyscale prints on an inkjet is really hard.

    > I'm about ready to send this printer back to Epson for "service" (or
    > replacement if it comes to that), as I find this behavior
    > unacceptable.

    There are three ways to fix this:

    1. Accurate colour profiles. With a good profile for your ink and
    paper you can get a decent greyscale.

    2. Print using a RIP. This is expensive, but gives much better
    control of generation of greyscales.

    3. Use small gamut inksets. See http://www.lyson.com/small-gamut.html

    Andrew.
  7. Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    In article <113140c4sv14939@news.supernews.com>,
    <andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> wrote:
    >In rec.photo.digital JC Dill <jcdill@gmail.com> wrote:
    >
    >> My main gripe is why should I have to go fiddle with these different
    >> printer preference settings *at all* when the image file has NO
    >> color data? Why does the printer think that it should be using
    >> colored ink when the file data says "all of these pixels are a mix
    >> of black and white only"?
    >
    >Because to use only the black ink is much worse. The coloured inks
    >give you much better tonality.
    >
    >> I've asked this question before and never received an answer that
    >> makes sense.
    >
    >OK, here's an answer that makes sense: making perfectly neutral
    >greyscale prints on an inkjet is really hard.
    >
    >> I'm about ready to send this printer back to Epson for "service" (or
    >> replacement if it comes to that), as I find this behavior
    >> unacceptable.
    >
    >There are three ways to fix this:
    >
    >1. Accurate colour profiles. With a good profile for your ink and
    > paper you can get a decent greyscale.
    >
    >2. Print using a RIP. This is expensive, but gives much better
    > control of generation of greyscales.
    >
    >3. Use small gamut inksets. See http://www.lyson.com/small-gamut.html
    >
    >Andrew.


    Ink systems for B&W printing on Epson printers. www.piezography.com
    --

    a d y k e s @ p a n i x . c o m

    Don't blame me. I voted for Gore.
  8. Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid wrote:

    > In rec.photo.digital JC Dill <jcdill@gmail.com> wrote:
    >
    >> My main gripe is why should I have to go fiddle with these different
    >> printer preference settings *at all* when the image file has NO
    >> color data? Why does the printer think that it should be using
    >> colored ink when the file data says "all of these pixels are a mix
    >> of black and white only"?
    >
    > Because to use only the black ink is much worse. The coloured inks
    > give you much better tonality.
    >
    >> I've asked this question before and never received an answer that
    >> makes sense.
    >
    > OK, here's an answer that makes sense: making perfectly neutral
    > greyscale prints on an inkjet is really hard.
    >
    >> I'm about ready to send this printer back to Epson for "service" (or
    >> replacement if it comes to that), as I find this behavior
    >> unacceptable.
    >
    > There are three ways to fix this:
    >
    > 1. Accurate colour profiles. With a good profile for your ink and
    > paper you can get a decent greyscale.
    >
    > 2. Print using a RIP. This is expensive, but gives much better
    > control of generation of greyscales.
    >
    > 3. Use small gamut inksets. See http://www.lyson.com/small-gamut.html
    >
    > Andrew.
    >

    Check out the QTR rip. A personally prefer to use monochrome inks (UT2
    from MIS) in my 1280 but a lot of people are getting good results with
    stock Epson color inks and the QTR rip in 2200 printers.
  9. Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    Where's the "QTR rip"????


    "Bubbabob" <rnorton@_remove_this_thuntek.net> wrote in message
    news:Xns96158120C63BDdilfjelfoiwepofujsdk@216.168.3.30...
    > andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid wrote:
    >
    >> In rec.photo.digital JC Dill <jcdill@gmail.com> wrote:
    >>
    >>> My main gripe is why should I have to go fiddle with these different
    >>> printer preference settings *at all* when the image file has NO
    >>> color data? Why does the printer think that it should be using
    >>> colored ink when the file data says "all of these pixels are a mix
    >>> of black and white only"?
    >>
    >> Because to use only the black ink is much worse. The coloured inks
    >> give you much better tonality.
    >>
    >>> I've asked this question before and never received an answer that
    >>> makes sense.
    >>
    >> OK, here's an answer that makes sense: making perfectly neutral
    >> greyscale prints on an inkjet is really hard.
    >>
    >>> I'm about ready to send this printer back to Epson for "service" (or
    >>> replacement if it comes to that), as I find this behavior
    >>> unacceptable.
    >>
    >> There are three ways to fix this:
    >>
    >> 1. Accurate colour profiles. With a good profile for your ink and
    >> paper you can get a decent greyscale.
    >>
    >> 2. Print using a RIP. This is expensive, but gives much better
    >> control of generation of greyscales.
    >>
    >> 3. Use small gamut inksets. See http://www.lyson.com/small-gamut.html
    >>
    >> Andrew.
    >>
    >
    > Check out the QTR rip. A personally prefer to use monochrome inks (UT2
    > from MIS) in my 1280 but a lot of people are getting good results with
    > stock Epson color inks and the QTR rip in 2200 printers.
  10. Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    adykes@panix.com (Al Dykes) wrote:

    >
    > Ink systems for B&W printing on Epson printers. www.piezography.com

    These people have overpriced printer clogging inks and poor customer
    support. I blew hundreds on their stuff and ended up with several dead
    printers and very few prints, most of which have changed noticeably over
    the last 3 years. The MIS UT inks are cheaper and much, much better.
  11. Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    I can't help you but I commend you for doing what you did for your father.

    JC Dill wrote:

    >For my father's 70th birthday I prepared an exhibit of photos from his
    >life. This project involved scanning hundreds of old photos from
    >albums, cleaning them up and reprinting them as 8x10 prints. For the
    >b/w photos I scanned them as 8 bit grayscale images, then when I
    >cleaned them up in photoshop I verified that they were still grayscale.
    > Since the image had NO "color" information, I'm really baffled as to
    >why the Epson 2200 thinks it needs to eat up colored ink printing these
    >images.
    >
    >If this process produced great images I wouldn't complain, but it
    >doesn't.
    >
    >The resulting images are muddy, the color cast is clearly obvious. In
    >the end I resorted to checking the "use black ink only" option in the
    >printer preferences, and ignoring Epson's warning that this was
    >"unsuitable for b/w photos" as it was the ONLY way I could get the
    >Epson to stop using colored inks and producing *very* unsuitable muddy
    >prints. I spent an hour on the phone with Epson technical support and
    >the technician had me trying other settings including "monochrome" - I
    >thought this had fixed the problem until I printed the 21 step
    >grayscale image and found pink in the lighter gray fields and blue in
    >the darker gray fields.
    >
    >My main gripe is why should I have to go fiddle with these different
    >printer preference settings *at all* when the image file has NO color
    >data? Why does the printer think that it should be using colored ink
    >when the file data says "all of these pixels are a mix of black and
    >white only"?
    >
    >I've asked this question before and never received an answer that makes
    >sense.
    >
    >I'm about ready to send this printer back to Epson for "service" (or
    >replacement if it comes to that), as I find this behavior unacceptable.
    >
    >
    >TIA
    >
    >jc
    >
    >
    >
  12. Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    measekite wrote:
    > I can't help you but I commend you for doing what you did for your father.
    >
    > JC Dill wrote:
    >
    >> For my father's 70th birthday I prepared an exhibit of photos from his
    >> life. This project involved scanning hundreds of old photos from
    >> albums, cleaning them up and reprinting them as 8x10 prints. For the
    >> b/w photos I scanned them as 8 bit grayscale images, then when I
    >> cleaned them up in photoshop I verified that they were still grayscale.
    >> Since the image had NO "color" information, I'm really baffled as to
    >> why the Epson 2200 thinks it needs to eat up colored ink printing these
    >> images.
    >>
    >> If this process produced great images I wouldn't complain, but it
    >> doesn't.
    [...]

    In the Canon's printer setup menu, one of the choices is "gray scale
    only." IIRC, Epson has a similar choice. Did you use it?

    I wouldn't scan 8bit gray scale, BTW, I would scan full colour, then
    work on the photo, then convert to gray scale. But I would keep the full
    colour scan. I've found that printing full colour in gray scale gives
    somewhat better results (on my Canon i960) than printing a gray scale
    picture in gray scale. IMO that's because a full colour pic has a wider
    black-white range. I don't know if you'd get the same results wth an Epson.

    Another factor in the appearance of b/w images is the paper used.
    Overall, I prefer matte photo paper to glossy, mostly because the ink
    dulls the shine of a glossy papaer, and os none has the same high gloss
    as a real photograph.

    HTH&GL
  13. Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 14:18:28 -0500, rafeb <rafe@nowhere.com> wrote:

    >
    >
    >Owamanga wrote:
    >
    >> HEY, SOMEONE SHOULD MAKE THIS CARTRIDGE! - Just make 3 or 5 pigment
    >> inks that have the same tonal density as the Yellow, Magenta and Cyan,
    >> (more in 6 color systems) but keep them neutral gray and you'll get
    >> people buying a second printer just for B&W - no mods to the driver
    >> required.
    >
    >
    >It's been done. Search for limited-gamut inksets.
    >Lyson has them, and I think maybe MIS. Mostly for
    >Epsons, though.
    >
    Yes. And Permajet.

    --

    Hecate - The Real One
    Hecate@newsguy.com
    veni, vidi, reliqui
  14. Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 16:29:06 -0600, Ron Hunter <rphunter@charter.net>
    wrote:


    >This is a driver issue.

    No it isn't. It's a profile and colour management issue.

    --

    Hecate - The Real One
    Hecate@newsguy.com
    veni, vidi, reliqui
  15. Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    "Stealth" <stealth@youllneverfindme.com> wrote:

    > Where's the "QTR rip"????
    >

    <http://harrington.com/index.shtml>

    I just KNEW when I posted that that everyone would expect me to do their
    Googling for them.
  16. Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    "Ron Hunter" <rphunter@charter.net> wrote in message
    news:104Yd.16876$R31.11315@fe07.lga...
    > This is a driver issue. If your driver doesn't have a B&W mode, that
    > uses only the black ink, then you will get a mixture of the other
    > colors, and if you look closely, will notice a distinct green tinge to
    > the picture. Don't blame Epson, it is quite common among color printers.

    He does have a B/W mode but that reduces resolution slightly for well
    understood reasons. The 2200 is capable of producing good B/W prints when
    setup correctly. Experts need the greyscale balancer that comes with the UK
    model but not the USA model for some reason. There is lots of info on the
    web about how to get it.
  17. Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    In rec.photo.digital CWatters <colin.watters@pandorabox.be> wrote:

    > The 2200 is capable of producing good B/W prints when setup
    > correctly. Experts need the greyscale balancer

    Experts need colour management. The gray balancer is not really a
    substitute. It's better than nothing.

    > that comes with the UK model but not the USA model for some reason.

    Here, from someone who knows: "I was (along with some others) asked by
    Epson America to test it before release. I found it to be one of the
    worst pieces of software in recent memory! This was a key reason why
    the product was never released in the US."

    Andrew.
  18. Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    Owamanga wrote:

    >If you force the printer to use just black ink it'll look even worse,
    >believe me. It does this for resolution/tonal depth reasons.

    You claim "it'll look even worse" but I saw with my OWN eyes that it
    looked much better. The muddy prints were outright embarassing, the
    pure black/white ones were usable.

    jc
  19. Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    Hecate wrote:

    >On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 16:29:06 -0600, Ron Hunter <rphun...@charter.net>
    wrote:

    >>This is a driver issue.

    Um, Espon provides the driver for their printer, right? I don't care
    what part of the package is causing the problem, it all comes from
    Epson...

    >No it isn't. It's a profile and colour management issue.

    I don't understand how it's a "profile and colour management" issue
    when the image has NO color information in it. As I understand it,
    profile and color management is used to match what you see on your
    monitor with what you see in the print. But I'm not trying to "match
    with the monitor", I'm trying to just print what I scanned, a B/W image
    that was scanned in 8 bit grayscale. The scanner scanned it as an
    image with no color information, photoshop sees it as an image with no
    color information so why does the printer think it's supposed to add
    color AND produce an image with obvious color cast? Like I said, if it
    was magically using the colored inks to create a color neutral image, I
    wouldn't mind that it used the color inks to get there. But it's
    creating muddy prints with an obvious color cast (like sepia tone, only
    not as attractive). It even did this when I used the color management
    settings in the printer properties and set it to monochrome.

    Sigh.
  20. Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    JC Dill wrote:

    > I don't understand how it's a "profile and colour management" issue
    > when the image has NO color information in it. As I understand it,
    > profile and color management is used to match what you see on your
    > monitor with what you see in the print. But I'm not trying to "match
    > with the monitor", I'm trying to just print what I scanned, a B/W image
    > that was scanned in 8 bit grayscale. The scanner scanned it as an
    > image with no color information, photoshop sees it as an image with no
    > color information so why does the printer think it's supposed to add
    > color AND produce an image with obvious color cast? Like I said, if it
    > was magically using the colored inks to create a color neutral image, I
    > wouldn't mind that it used the color inks to get there. But it's
    > creating muddy prints with an obvious color cast (like sepia tone, only
    > not as attractive). It even did this when I used the color management
    > settings in the printer properties and set it to monochrome.


    It's like this. The printer has (let's say)
    64 nozzles for each color. In the case of the
    2200, there are six colors, so there are six
    sets of 64 nozzles, one set per color.

    The best image happens when all (6 * 64) nozzles
    are contributing to the image, and that will be
    the case when printing a true RGB image.

    When you force the printer to print with black
    only, you've now constricted the printer to use
    1/6 the available ink nozzles.

    In most cases, that produces an image with a
    much coarser dither pattern than the printer
    is capable of. But it will be neutral, since
    only the Black ink is used.

    Now... if instead you want to use all (6* 64)
    nozzles, you introduce the possibility of a
    non-neutral BW print, since you're trying to
    get "pure" grays and blacks from wide-gamut
    color inks.

    In order for that to work, the contributions
    of the five color primaries (CMY,lc,lm) have
    to be perfectly balanced, all up and down the
    tonal scale -- and that's where a good printer
    profile comes in.

    There are some RIPs that work around this, in
    varying ways, though I really don't know how.
    I've heard people say that the ImagePrint RIP
    delivers perfectly neutral BW prints with the
    standard Ultrachrome inks, but I haven't seen
    it myself.

    The best method for producing really neutral
    BW prints (and using all nozzles) is with a
    BW ink set, eg., the Piezo inkset from Cone
    or the MIS inkset, along with a suitable RIP.
    (Eg., Harrington's Quadtone RIP.) Of course,
    this pretty much means "dedicating" a printer
    to BW work, as it's really impractical to
    switch inks on any inkjet printer.


    rafe b.
    http://www.terrapinphoto.com
  21. Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    On 11 Mar 2005 11:14:26 -0800, "JC Dill" <jcdill@gmail.com> wrote:

    >Owamanga wrote:
    >
    >>If you force the printer to use just black ink it'll look even worse,
    >>believe me. It does this for resolution/tonal depth reasons.
    >
    >You claim "it'll look even worse" but I saw with my OWN eyes that it
    >looked much better. The muddy prints were outright embarassing, the
    >pure black/white ones were usable.

    Okay, put it this way, a proper color calibrated BW print using color
    inks will look *much* better than the black-only ones. Although
    broadly 'acceptable' I've never been able to match the nutrality of a
    true Black & White digital wet print such as the ones from mpix.

    I don't actually have the 2200, I use a 1270 (it's a 13" wide
    predecessor, using different ink), but the concept is the same.

    --
    Owamanga!
    http://www.pbase.com/owamanga
  22. Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    On 11 Mar 2005 11:27:32 -0800, "JC Dill" <jcdill@gmail.com> wrote:

    >Hecate wrote:
    >
    >>On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 16:29:06 -0600, Ron Hunter <rphun...@charter.net>
    >wrote:
    >
    >>>This is a driver issue.
    >
    >Um, Espon provides the driver for their printer, right? I don't care
    >what part of the package is causing the problem, it all comes from
    >Epson...

    You are claiming the following:
    The printer comes from Epson. Agreed.
    The driver comes from Epson. Agreed.
    The ink comes from Epson. Agreed.
    The paper comes from Epson. Does it?
    The software comes from Epson. No. Probably Adobe.
    The PC operating system comes from Epson. No - Microsoft.
    The color management software comes from Epson. No - Adobe again.

    >>No it isn't. It's a profile and colour management issue.
    >
    >I don't understand how it's a "profile and colour management" issue
    >when the image has NO color information in it.

    But the print *does*. That's how it gets nice tonal grays.

    > As I understand it,
    >profile and color management is used to match what you see on your
    >monitor with what you see in the print.

    Massive over simplification.

    Calibrated systems need to match OS, screen, software, printer,
    scanner, paper, inks. You can't just stop half way.

    > But I'm not trying to "match
    >with the monitor", I'm trying to just print what I scanned, a B/W image
    >that was scanned in 8 bit grayscale. The scanner scanned it as an
    >image with no color information, photoshop sees it as an image with no
    >color information so why does the printer think it's supposed to add
    >color AND produce an image with obvious color cast? Like I said, if it
    >was magically using the colored inks to create a color neutral image, I
    >wouldn't mind that it used the color inks to get there. But it's
    >creating muddy prints with an obvious color cast (like sepia tone, only
    >not as attractive).

    Look, try and imagine what the driver is doing. It's got to decide the
    ratios of each ink color it needs to dump on the paper to get gray. A
    bad color profile, and it'll dump too much yellow, giving you sepia
    prints. Mine tended to be green, count yourself lucky.

    It's not just about the ink, but the resolution you are printing at
    and most importantly, how does the ink react with *that paper* you
    have loaded. If your profile doesn't mention the exact paper type, you
    are *not* going to get gray even if the rest of your system is
    perfect, and you absolutely critically need gray with no color cast at
    all. This requires a good color profile.

    > It even did this when I used the color management
    >settings in the printer properties and set it to monochrome.

    You *still* get a cast - even when forcing it to just use only black
    ink? That bit I can't explain. Shitty paper maybe, tungsten lighting?

    --
    Owamanga!
    http://www.pbase.com/owamanga
  23. Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 19:37:58 GMT, Owamanga
    <owamanga(not-this-bit)@hotmail.com> wrote:
    >> It even did this when I used the color management
    >>settings in the printer properties and set it to monochrome.
    >
    >You *still* get a cast - even when forcing it to just use only black
    >ink? That bit I can't explain. Shitty paper maybe, tungsten lighting?

    ...add another one: Cataracts?

    --
    Owamanga!
    http://www.pbase.com/owamanga
  24. Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    On 11 Mar 2005 11:27:32 -0800, "JC Dill" <jcdill@gmail.com> wrote:

    >Hecate wrote:
    >
    >>On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 16:29:06 -0600, Ron Hunter <rphun...@charter.net>
    >wrote:
    >

    >>No it isn't. It's a profile and colour management issue.
    >
    >I don't understand how it's a "profile and colour management" issue

    If you've read all the posts above you should do now.

    --

    Hecate - The Real One
    Hecate@newsguy.com
    veni, vidi, reliqui
  25. Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    It could also be a paper type issue. The 2200 needs to know the
    correct paper in its settings or it lays down too much/too little ink.

    I just got a new computer with the epson drivers. The new driver is
    missing paper types which were on earlier releases. So, my first color
    prints coming out are looking both too red and too muddy.

    Did JC confirm that he is selecting the right paper type for his
    printout. In OS X, this is found under the Print Setting option on one
    of the printer dialog box's menus.

    Gary
  26. Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    This posting just goes to prove you are never going to please everyone.

    Overall, the use of the color inks to produce a monochrome print allows
    for several features. One, you can easily tone or duo-tone an image.
    Many people prefer to have a sepia or other tonal range in their
    monochrome images, and secondly, the smoothness of the image can be
    improved by providing much more dithered results than using just one or
    two levels of black ink.

    However, the result, in a perfect world would be almost completely
    monochromic gray scale rather than showing color casts. Although not
    perfect. Epson's drivers, in general allow for fairly neutral full color
    ink images when produced from a monochrome source. If you are using 3rd
    party inks that may explain the results being less than perfect.

    Most Epson drivers allow for you to turn the driver on for monochromic
    prints using just the black inks.

    Art

    JC Dill wrote:

    > For my father's 70th birthday I prepared an exhibit of photos from his
    > life. This project involved scanning hundreds of old photos from
    > albums, cleaning them up and reprinting them as 8x10 prints. For the
    > b/w photos I scanned them as 8 bit grayscale images, then when I
    > cleaned them up in photoshop I verified that they were still grayscale.
    > Since the image had NO "color" information, I'm really baffled as to
    > why the Epson 2200 thinks it needs to eat up colored ink printing these
    > images.
    >
    > If this process produced great images I wouldn't complain, but it
    > doesn't.
    >
    > The resulting images are muddy, the color cast is clearly obvious. In
    > the end I resorted to checking the "use black ink only" option in the
    > printer preferences, and ignoring Epson's warning that this was
    > "unsuitable for b/w photos" as it was the ONLY way I could get the
    > Epson to stop using colored inks and producing *very* unsuitable muddy
    > prints. I spent an hour on the phone with Epson technical support and
    > the technician had me trying other settings including "monochrome" - I
    > thought this had fixed the problem until I printed the 21 step
    > grayscale image and found pink in the lighter gray fields and blue in
    > the darker gray fields.
    >
    > My main gripe is why should I have to go fiddle with these different
    > printer preference settings *at all* when the image file has NO color
    > data? Why does the printer think that it should be using colored ink
    > when the file data says "all of these pixels are a mix of black and
    > white only"?
    >
    > I've asked this question before and never received an answer that makes
    > sense.
    >
    > I'm about ready to send this printer back to Epson for "service" (or
    > replacement if it comes to that), as I find this behavior unacceptable.
    >
    >
    > TIA
    >
    > jc
    >
  27. Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    Some printers (apparently not Epshun) also have a B&W cart with lighter
    'blacks' to do justice to proper greyscale imagery.


    On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 11:10:13 GMT, Arthur Entlich <artistic@telus.net> found
    these unused words floating about:

    >This posting just goes to prove you are never going to please everyone.
    >
    >Overall, the use of the color inks to produce a monochrome print allows
    >for several features. One, you can easily tone or duo-tone an image.
    >Many people prefer to have a sepia or other tonal range in their
    >monochrome images, and secondly, the smoothness of the image can be
    >improved by providing much more dithered results than using just one or
    >two levels of black ink.
    >
    >However, the result, in a perfect world would be almost completely
    >monochromic gray scale rather than showing color casts. Although not
    >perfect. Epson's drivers, in general allow for fairly neutral full color
    >ink images when produced from a monochrome source. If you are using 3rd
    >party inks that may explain the results being less than perfect.
    >
    >Most Epson drivers allow for you to turn the driver on for monochromic
    >prints using just the black inks.
    >
    >Art
    >
    >JC Dill wrote:
    >
    >> For my father's 70th birthday I prepared an exhibit of photos from his
    >> life. This project involved scanning hundreds of old photos from
    >> albums, cleaning them up and reprinting them as 8x10 prints. For the
    >> b/w photos I scanned them as 8 bit grayscale images, then when I
    >> cleaned them up in photoshop I verified that they were still grayscale.
    >> Since the image had NO "color" information, I'm really baffled as to
    >> why the Epson 2200 thinks it needs to eat up colored ink printing these
    >> images.
    >>
    >> If this process produced great images I wouldn't complain, but it
    >> doesn't.
    >>
    >> The resulting images are muddy, the color cast is clearly obvious. In
    >> the end I resorted to checking the "use black ink only" option in the
    >> printer preferences, and ignoring Epson's warning that this was
    >> "unsuitable for b/w photos" as it was the ONLY way I could get the
    >> Epson to stop using colored inks and producing *very* unsuitable muddy
    >> prints. I spent an hour on the phone with Epson technical support and
    >> the technician had me trying other settings including "monochrome" - I
    >> thought this had fixed the problem until I printed the 21 step
    >> grayscale image and found pink in the lighter gray fields and blue in
    >> the darker gray fields.
    >>
    >> My main gripe is why should I have to go fiddle with these different
    >> printer preference settings *at all* when the image file has NO color
    >> data? Why does the printer think that it should be using colored ink
    >> when the file data says "all of these pixels are a mix of black and
    >> white only"?
    >>
    >> I've asked this question before and never received an answer that makes
    >> sense.
    >>
    >> I'm about ready to send this printer back to Epson for "service" (or
    >> replacement if it comes to that), as I find this behavior unacceptable.
    >>
    >>
    >> TIA
    >>
    >> jc
    >>
  28. Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    In article <f186315u02hmnpafaof38s1cfeqpc0h2h2@4ax.com>,
    J. A. Mc. <jaSPAMc@gbr.online.com> wrote:

    > Some printers (apparently not Epshun) also have a B&W cart with lighter
    > 'blacks' to do justice to proper greyscale imagery.

    The "Epshun" that's the subject of this thread has -- like all high-end
    Epsons -- a light grey ink cart as well as the dark (black) cart.

    Hamish
  29. Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    "JC Dill" <jcdill@gmail.com> wrote in message
    news:1110569252.858245.20470@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
    >
    > I don't understand how it's a "profile and colour management" issue
    > when the image has NO color information in it. As I understand it,
    > profile and color management is used to match what you see on your
    > monitor with what you see in the print. But I'm not trying to "match
    > with the monitor", I'm trying to just print what I scanned, a B/W image
    > that was scanned in 8 bit grayscale. The scanner scanned it as an
    > image with no color information, photoshop sees it as an image with no
    > color information so why does the printer think it's supposed to add
    > color AND produce an image with obvious color cast?

    We've explained this already. The printer driver mixes colours to make extra
    grey levels. The alternative would be for it to use just use the black and
    grey carts and use a dot pattern a bit like a newspaper does - that reduces
    resolution slightly compared to what can be achived by making extra greys
    using the colours.
  30. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 09:01:24 -0800, J. A. Mc. <jaSPAMc@gbr.online.com>
    wrote:

    >Some printers (apparently not Epshun) also have a B&W cart with lighter
    >'blacks' to do justice to proper greyscale imagery.
    >
    The 2100/2200 does have a single light black (gray) cartridge. Of
    course the perfect solution is to buy something like the Lyson inks or
    the Permajet VTBlax. But you have to dedicate the printer to B&W if
    you do that.

    --

    Hecate - The Real One
    Hecate@newsguy.com
    veni, vidi, reliqui
  31. Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    You get two blacks with the 2200, a low colorant load black and a deep
    black. (and two deep blacks, a glossy and matte version). If this isn't
    enough, the printers can be accommodated with a 4 or 6 shade system of
    black inks with 3rd party inks and drivers.

    Art

    J. A. Mc. wrote:

    > Some printers (apparently not Epshun) also have a B&W cart with lighter
    > 'blacks' to do justice to proper greyscale imagery.
    >
    >
    > On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 11:10:13 GMT, Arthur Entlich <artistic@telus.net> found
    > these unused words floating about:
    >
    >
    >>This posting just goes to prove you are never going to please everyone.
    >>
    >>Overall, the use of the color inks to produce a monochrome print allows
    >>for several features. One, you can easily tone or duo-tone an image.
    >>Many people prefer to have a sepia or other tonal range in their
    >>monochrome images, and secondly, the smoothness of the image can be
    >>improved by providing much more dithered results than using just one or
    >>two levels of black ink.
    >>
    >>However, the result, in a perfect world would be almost completely
    >>monochromic gray scale rather than showing color casts. Although not
    >>perfect. Epson's drivers, in general allow for fairly neutral full color
    >>ink images when produced from a monochrome source. If you are using 3rd
    >>party inks that may explain the results being less than perfect.
    >>
    >>Most Epson drivers allow for you to turn the driver on for monochromic
    >>prints using just the black inks.
    >>
    >>Art
    >>
  32. Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    On 10 Mar 2005 08:58:38 -0800, "JC Dill" <jcdill@gmail.com> wrote:

    > Since the image had NO "color" information, I'm really baffled as to
    >why the Epson 2200 thinks it needs to eat up colored ink printing these
    >images.

    I'm not going to explain everything in detail, but here are some hints:

    It uses the colored inks to give you good resolution and with proper
    profiles/color management or a suitable RIP color cast free B/W prints.
    Printing with only black/light grey has to use heavy dithering to
    produce a rich B/W tonal range.

    The printer's light grey is pretty brownish, mixing pure black and pure
    light grey gives a brown color cast. To compensate this the printer has
    to use cyan and magenta!

    I don't know what driver settings you used, but it doesn't help to feed
    the printer with a grayscale image because the windows (you used it,
    didn't you) printer driver internal stuff converts grayscale back to
    RGB.

    >
    >If this process produced great images I wouldn't complain, but it
    >doesn't.
    >
    >The resulting images are muddy, the color cast is clearly obvious. In
    >the end I resorted to checking the "use black ink only" option in the
    >printer preferences, and ignoring Epson's warning that this was
    >"unsuitable for b/w photos" as it was the ONLY way I could get the
    >Epson to stop using colored inks and producing *very* unsuitable muddy
    >prints. I spent an hour on the phone with Epson technical support and
    >the technician had me trying other settings including "monochrome" - I
    >thought this had fixed the problem until I printed the 21 step
    >grayscale image and found pink in the lighter gray fields and blue in
    >the darker gray fields.

    Make your life easy: Google for Harrington QuadToneRIP (QTR). It's
    shareware, it's cheap, worth the money and gives you instant access to
    color cast free B/W printing. With QTR you can control what color cast
    your B/W prints should have (cool grey, neutral grey, sepia, etc.). I'm
    really impressed what QTR offers.

    >
    >My main gripe is why should I have to go fiddle with these different
    >printer preference settings *at all* when the image file has NO color
    >data?

    I'm not sure if Windows' GDI (used by the printing subsystem) knows
    about greyscale. Greyscale might be silently converted back to RGB but
    with R=G=B, so ideally it should be color cast free greyscale. Hehe,
    don't expect ideal things with Windows (couldn't resist...).

    Printing good B/W is kind of an art. It's possible without additional
    software but you have to know what to do. Your printer is nevertheless a
    very good starting point (I have the european version (Epson Stylus
    Photo 2100) which includes Grey Enhancer, a software Epson refuses to
    add to the 2200).


    >I've asked this question before and never received an answer that makes
    >sense.

    Well: 42! Maybe you didn't ask the "proper" question? Maybe you didn't
    google for yourself? A lot of web pages which deal with B/W printing
    (mostly with Epson printers) do explain a lot of your questions. Learn
    to search the internet!

    >I'm about ready to send this printer back to Epson for "service" (or
    >replacement if it comes to that), as I find this behavior unacceptable.

    That won't help you...

    BTW, why did you buy an Epson 2200? Which inks do you use? Which paper
    did you use for your B/W printing?
    You don't give much information what you do. How can you expect other
    people to help you???


    \relax\bye % Viktor 8-)
  33. Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    "Viktor Darnedde" <viktor_usenet@gmx.de> wrote in message
    news:nb7e31963tvht81vn49t4umhtfufp3s5ns@4ax.com...
    > On 10 Mar 2005 08:58:38 -0800, "JC Dill" <jcdill@gmail.com> wrote:
    >
    > > Since the image had NO "color" information, I'm really baffled as to
    > >why the Epson 2200 thinks it needs to eat up colored ink printing these
    > >images.
    >
    > I'm not going to explain everything in detail, but here are some hints:
    >
    > It uses the colored inks to give you good resolution and with proper
    > profiles/color management or a suitable RIP color cast free B/W prints.
    > Printing with only black/light grey has to use heavy dithering to
    > produce a rich B/W tonal range.


    It's been a while since I printed a B&W photo so I decided to run a quick
    test on my Epson 2100...

    I took a colour photo and converted it to greyscale using Irfanview then
    printed it on TDK Pro Quality Photo Glossy (my favorite glossy paper for the
    2100). I used the out of the box drivers and default/automatic settings, no
    extra profiles, greyscale balancing or other tweaking..

    Settings were
    Glossy Photo paper
    Glossy Black cart
    Colour
    Mode = Auto
    Quality slider set to Quality

    The resulting black and white print looks very neutral when viewed outside
    in daylight with a light cloud cover. In fact to my untrained eye it looks
    close to perfect.

    I expected some change when viewed indoors under artificial light but
    perhaps not quite so dramatic as I got. The same print looks quite
    brown/pink or blue depending on the light source. Is there any evidence that
    inkjet prints exhibit a different response to lighting than conventional
    film prints?
  34. Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 16:19:08 GMT, "CWatters"
    <colin.watters@pandoraBOX.be> wrote:


    >The resulting black and white print looks very neutral when viewed outside
    >in daylight with a light cloud cover. In fact to my untrained eye it looks
    >close to perfect.
    >
    >I expected some change when viewed indoors under artificial light but
    >perhaps not quite so dramatic as I got. The same print looks quite
    >brown/pink or blue depending on the light source. Is there any evidence that
    >inkjet prints exhibit a different response to lighting than conventional
    >film prints?
    >
    It's not really a different response. I find that the light source
    alters the colour pe4rception, sometimes subtly, sometimes not so
    subtly, whatever you're viewing. It's down to metamerism. You can
    check each light source with a GATF RHEM light indicator. The only
    source I trust for my images is in the room I do my photoshopping and
    printing where the indicator shows the light source to be suitable for
    colour correct work.

    --

    Hecate - The Real One
    Hecate@newsguy.com
    Fashion: Buying things you don't need, with money
    you don't have, to impress people you don't like...
  35. Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    Owamanga! wrote:

    >You are claiming the following:
    >The printer comes from Epson. Agreed.
    >The driver comes from Epson. Agreed.
    >The ink comes from Epson. Agreed.
    >The paper comes from Epson. Does it?

    I have tried both Epson papers and Kirkland (Ilford) papers. Same
    problem with both papers. In any case, the paper used doesn't change
    the INK used, the ink is colore tinted ink and produces a colored image
    on all papers.

    >The software comes from Epson. No. Probably Adobe.
    >The PC operating system comes from Epson. No - Microsoft.
    >The color management software comes from Epson. No - Adobe again.

    I'm not using ANY color management sofware. Why should I, the image is
    in *gray* scale - it has NO color. Why should the operating system
    have any impact on this, the operating system isn't handling the
    details of the color of the image. The Adobe software is only used to
    verify that the image is in fact in *gray* scale - I have the same
    problems printing from Irfanview, from XnView, or from either of my
    browers (Firefox, IE), which makes the common component of interest the
    driver and printer.

    I still don't understand WHY the driver/printer is using colored inks
    and producing images with an obvious color cast, *even* when I've
    selected the grayscale printer property.

    sigh

    jc
  36. Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    Gary wrote:

    >It could also be a paper type issue.

    I was using the right paper type. I was on the phone with Epson for
    over an hour, and we tried Epson glossy, semi-gloss, and Kirkland
    (Ilford) semi-gloss papers, all with the right paper type settings, and
    I had obviously color-tinted B/W prints from each of these attempts.

    jc
  37. Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    Wolf wrote:

    >Google on "color calibration monitor". It's the monitor that's the
    >problem, not the printer. If it doesn't print what you see on the
    >monitor, that's the monitor's fault, not the printer's.

    ARUGH. I don't CARE what the monitor shows. The file is a *grayscale*
    file, therefore it only has image data for shades of gray. I want the
    printer to print in shades of gray, per the data in the FILE. I
    shouldn't need to "profile my monitor" to get the printer to correctly
    print the grayscale data that is in the FILE.

    The monitor is an output device, the printer is an output device. The
    printer should correctly output the grayscale image irrespective of
    what the monitor outputs.

    jc
  38. Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    Art wrote:

    >Epson's drivers, in general allow for fairly neutral full color
    >ink images when produced from a monochrome source. If you are using
    3rd
    >party inks that may explain the results being less than perfect.

    This problem occured with the Epson ink cartridges that came with the
    printer and persisted with the Espon ink cartridges purchased to
    replace the ones that were used up (I used up 2 pale blue and 2 pale
    pink cartridge (and one dark black cartridge)) while printing these
    "black and white" photos (before I switched to forcing the printer to
    print with JUST the black ink for the remaining photos).

    jc
  39. Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    Perhaps because, from the ground up, the 2200 (as are all Epson printers)
    designed to be COLOR printers...


    <jcdill@gmail.com> wrote in message
    news:1112166241.634663.250120@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
    > Owamanga! wrote:
    >
    >>You are claiming the following:
    >>The printer comes from Epson. Agreed.
    >>The driver comes from Epson. Agreed.
    >>The ink comes from Epson. Agreed.
    >>The paper comes from Epson. Does it?
    >
    > I have tried both Epson papers and Kirkland (Ilford) papers. Same
    > problem with both papers. In any case, the paper used doesn't change
    > the INK used, the ink is colore tinted ink and produces a colored image
    > on all papers.
    >
    >>The software comes from Epson. No. Probably Adobe.
    >>The PC operating system comes from Epson. No - Microsoft.
    >>The color management software comes from Epson. No - Adobe again.
    >
    > I'm not using ANY color management sofware. Why should I, the image is
    > in *gray* scale - it has NO color. Why should the operating system
    > have any impact on this, the operating system isn't handling the
    > details of the color of the image. The Adobe software is only used to
    > verify that the image is in fact in *gray* scale - I have the same
    > problems printing from Irfanview, from XnView, or from either of my
    > browers (Firefox, IE), which makes the common component of interest the
    > driver and printer.
    >
    > I still don't understand WHY the driver/printer is using colored inks
    > and producing images with an obvious color cast, *even* when I've
    > selected the grayscale printer property.
    >
    > sigh
    >
    > jc
    >
  40. Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    <jcdill@gmail.com> wrote in message
    news:1112166654.725884.176550@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
    > Wolf wrote:
    >
    >>Google on "color calibration monitor". It's the monitor that's the
    >>problem, not the printer. If it doesn't print what you see on the
    >>monitor, that's the monitor's fault, not the printer's.
    >
    > ARUGH. I don't CARE what the monitor shows. The file is a *grayscale*
    > file, therefore it only has image data for shades of gray. I want the
    > printer to print in shades of gray, per the data in the FILE. I
    > shouldn't need to "profile my monitor" to get the printer to correctly
    > print the grayscale data that is in the FILE.
    >
    > The monitor is an output device, the printer is an output device. The
    > printer should correctly output the grayscale image irrespective of
    > what the monitor outputs.
    >
    > jc
    >
    Wow, you've gotten some interesting answers. As far as I know, there's only
    two ways to beat the "color printer printing grayscale images." One is to
    use only grayscale inks, an option several of my acquaintances have gone
    for. I've forgotten the mfr. name, starts with an "L", but they make
    dedicated inks for grayscale printing for Epson printers. The other way is
    to use a different driver. There are several on the market, but right now,
    your printer basically doesn't believe that you really don't want any color.

    --
    Skip Middleton
    http://www.shadowcatcherimagery.com
  41. Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    <jcdill@gmail.com> wrote in message
    news:1112166910.075845.203790@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
    > Art wrote:
    >
    >>Epson's drivers, in general allow for fairly neutral full color
    >>ink images when produced from a monochrome source. If you are using
    > 3rd
    >>party inks that may explain the results being less than perfect.
    >
    > This problem occured with the Epson ink cartridges that came with the
    > printer and persisted with the Espon ink cartridges purchased to
    > replace the ones that were used up (I used up 2 pale blue and 2 pale
    > pink cartridge (and one dark black cartridge)) while printing these
    > "black and white" photos (before I switched to forcing the printer to
    > print with JUST the black ink for the remaining photos).
    >
    > jc
    >
    Just in case you're starting to feel like no one gets it, I had consistent
    problems with my Epson 880 getting color tinged greyscale images. As do
    everybody else I know with Epson 1200, 2000 and 2200, which is why the ones
    who want good prints use dedicated b&w inks in a dedicated 2200 printer.
    I've never seen "neutral" b&w images from an unmodified Epson printer, all
    have had a slight color tinge. The manager at the local Calumet was
    experimenting with a new driver and getting amazing tones from his 2200,
    I'll check with him today and see what driver he was using. All I remember
    was that it was $500 or so...

    --
    Skip Middleton
    http://www.shadowcatcherimagery.com
  42. Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    jcdill@gmail.com wrote:

    > Wolf wrote:
    >
    >
    >>Google on "color calibration monitor". It's the monitor that's the
    >>problem, not the printer. If it doesn't print what you see on the
    >>monitor, that's the monitor's fault, not the printer's.
    >
    >
    > ARUGH. I don't CARE what the monitor shows. The file is a *grayscale*
    > file, therefore it only has image data for shades of gray. I want the
    > printer to print in shades of gray, per the data in the FILE. I
    > shouldn't need to "profile my monitor" to get the printer to correctly
    > print the grayscale data that is in the FILE.
    >
    > The monitor is an output device, the printer is an output device. The
    > printer should correctly output the grayscale image irrespective of
    > what the monitor outputs.
    >
    > jc
    >


    I tracked down the same issue on the Epson C82 printer on my Mac OSX
    computer. The print driver from Epson forced color ink for greyscale
    printing on all papers except matte finish because the black ink would
    not stick to the glossy surfaces. I realize the C82 is not a "Photo"
    printer but it does a very good job with black ink only on the matte
    papers. Besides, I prefer matte paper for normal viewing situations.
    Glare in spaces with uncontrolled lighting ruins print viewing for me.

    -Guy
  43. Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    On 29 Mar 2005 23:04:01 -0800, "jcdill@gmail.com" <jcdill@gmail.com>
    wrote:


    >I still don't understand WHY the driver/printer is using colored inks
    >and producing images with an obvious color cast, *even* when I've
    >selected the grayscale printer property.
    >
    It's been explained to you several times before so let's have one
    *more* try:

    The printer uses black ink for black. It uses "paper white" (i.e. the
    base colour) for white. Anything in between, i.e. the shades of gray
    are simulated by MIXING THE COLOURS.

    Consequently, you need PROPER COLOUR MANAGEMENT to get the gradations
    of gray that you require to get a cool, neutral or warm print.

    If you don't understand what I've told you please get a book on colour
    management, or one that contains a chapter on colour management.

    --

    Hecate - The Real One
    Hecate@newsguy.com
    Fashion: Buying things you don't need, with money
    you don't have, to impress people you don't like...
  44. Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    "Hecate" <hecate@newsguy.com> wrote in message
    news:vpam41p0psei0rmosj41bv2lirgjr4avik@4ax.com...
    > On 29 Mar 2005 23:04:01 -0800, "jcdill@gmail.com" <jcdill@gmail.com>
    > wrote:
    >
    >
    >>I still don't understand WHY the driver/printer is using colored inks
    >>and producing images with an obvious color cast, *even* when I've
    >>selected the grayscale printer property.
    >>
    > It's been explained to you several times before so let's have one
    > *more* try:
    >
    > The printer uses black ink for black. It uses "paper white" (i.e. the
    > base colour) for white. Anything in between, i.e. the shades of gray
    > are simulated by MIXING THE COLOURS.
    >
    > Consequently, you need PROPER COLOUR MANAGEMENT to get the gradations
    > of gray that you require to get a cool, neutral or warm print.
    >
    > If you don't understand what I've told you please get a book on colour
    > management, or one that contains a chapter on colour management.
    >

    You do also find that 'black' inks.. errr.. arn't. 3rd party inks especially
    are often tinted towards magenta or green instead of true black, and the
    paper used can make that difference quite noticable.
  45. Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 04:27:34 -0800, "Skip M" <shadowcatcher@cox.net>
    wrote:


    >Just in case you're starting to feel like no one gets it, I had consistent
    >problems with my Epson 880 getting color tinged greyscale images. As do
    >everybody else I know with Epson 1200, 2000 and 2200, which is why the ones
    >who want good prints use dedicated b&w inks in a dedicated 2200 printer.
    >I've never seen "neutral" b&w images from an unmodified Epson printer, all
    >have had a slight color tinge.

    I get them all the time. It completely depends upon the colour
    management system you use, the inks that you use and the paper
    choices. I can successfully get either as cool, neutral or warm tone
    print almost at will now.

    --

    Hecate - The Real One
    Hecate@newsguy.com
    Fashion: Buying things you don't need, with money
    you don't have, to impress people you don't like...
  46. Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    >>>>> "Hecate" == Hecate <hecate@newsguy.com> writes:

    Hecate> The printer uses black ink for black. It uses "paper
    Hecate> white" (i.e. the base colour) for white. Anything in
    Hecate> between, i.e. the shades of gray are simulated by MIXING
    Hecate> THE COLOURS.

    errrr....

    According to my reading of the Epson website, the Epson Styles Photo
    2200 (I assume this is the same printer?) is a 7 color ink jet
    printer, and the colors are:

    Photo black
    Cyan
    Magenta
    Yellow
    Light Cyan
    Light Magenta
    Light Black
    Matte Black

    Yes, thats 8 colors, my impression is you have to choose if you want
    to install Photo black or Matte black.

    To the original poster:

    What ink cartridges do you have installed? I assume you have photo
    black and light black?

    To this poster:

    I believe the "light black" ink color should mean true black and white
    photo printing is possible without resorting to colored inks.

    Disclaimer:

    I have the HP7960, 8 ink colors, and it seems to work fine for black
    and white prints. I don't have the Epson.
    --
    Brian May <bam@snoopy.apana.org.au>
  47. Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    In general, Epson's drivers do produce relatively neutral monotone
    (greyscale) images if Epson inks and papers are used. Using the full
    color inks is supposed to provide a smoother gradient because the number
    of dots is increased considerably. The idea is by using the colored
    inks in equal densities, the inks should appear neutral grey. It's not
    easy to accomplish, since the drivers use 2 pigment loads for the C and
    M but only one for the Y.

    I don't know enough about the 2200 as to if the driver can be convinced
    to just use the light and full pigment load blacks. I believe the light
    load black tends to be warm, but having the two densities should in
    principal allow for a reasonable monochrome grey print.

    Art

    jcdill@gmail.com wrote:

    > Art wrote:
    >
    >
    >>Epson's drivers, in general allow for fairly neutral full color
    >>ink images when produced from a monochrome source. If you are using
    >
    > 3rd
    >
    >>party inks that may explain the results being less than perfect.
    >
    >
    > This problem occured with the Epson ink cartridges that came with the
    > printer and persisted with the Espon ink cartridges purchased to
    > replace the ones that were used up (I used up 2 pale blue and 2 pale
    > pink cartridge (and one dark black cartridge)) while printing these
    > "black and white" photos (before I switched to forcing the printer to
    > print with JUST the black ink for the remaining photos).
    >
    > jc
    >
  48. Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    BTW, that issue was resolved (regarding the black ink sticking to glossy
    paper), first by introducing a different paper and new driver, and
    secondly, by a new black ink formulation starting with the C84.

    The original reason this was done was to make a super fast drying black
    ink for office text work where 8-12 pages a second was expected from
    using laser printers.

    Art

    Guy Jordan wrote:

    > jcdill@gmail.com wrote:
    >
    >> Wolf wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >>> Google on "color calibration monitor". It's the monitor that's the
    >>> problem, not the printer. If it doesn't print what you see on the
    >>> monitor, that's the monitor's fault, not the printer's.
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >> ARUGH. I don't CARE what the monitor shows. The file is a *grayscale*
    >> file, therefore it only has image data for shades of gray. I want the
    >> printer to print in shades of gray, per the data in the FILE. I
    >> shouldn't need to "profile my monitor" to get the printer to correctly
    >> print the grayscale data that is in the FILE.
    >>
    >> The monitor is an output device, the printer is an output device. The
    >> printer should correctly output the grayscale image irrespective of
    >> what the monitor outputs.
    >>
    >> jc
    >>
    >
    >
    > I tracked down the same issue on the Epson C82 printer on my Mac OSX
    > computer. The print driver from Epson forced color ink for greyscale
    > printing on all papers except matte finish because the black ink would
    > not stick to the glossy surfaces. I realize the C82 is not a "Photo"
    > printer but it does a very good job with black ink only on the matte
    > papers. Besides, I prefer matte paper for normal viewing situations.
    > Glare in spaces with uncontrolled lighting ruins print viewing for me.
    >
    > -Guy
    >
  49. Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 10:47:35 +1000, Brian May
    <bam@snoopy.apana.org.au> wrote:

    >>>>>> "Hecate" == Hecate <hecate@newsguy.com> writes:
    >
    > Hecate> The printer uses black ink for black. It uses "paper
    > Hecate> white" (i.e. the base colour) for white. Anything in
    > Hecate> between, i.e. the shades of gray are simulated by MIXING
    > Hecate> THE COLOURS.
    >
    >errrr....
    >
    >According to my reading of the Epson website, the Epson Styles Photo
    >2200 (I assume this is the same printer?) is a 7 color ink jet
    >printer, and the colors are:
    >
    >Photo black
    >Cyan
    >Magenta
    >Yellow
    >Light Cyan
    >Light Magenta
    >Light Black
    >Matte Black
    >
    >Yes, thats 8 colors, my impression is you have to choose if you want
    >to install Photo black or Matte black.

    Correct.


    >To this poster:
    >
    >I believe the "light black" ink color should mean true black and white
    >photo printing is possible without resorting to colored inks.

    Wrong.

    --

    Hecate - The Real One
    Hecate@newsguy.com
    Fashion: Buying things you don't need, with money
    you don't have, to impress people you don't like...
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