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Why does the Espon 2200 use colored inks to produce muddy ..

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Anonymous
March 10, 2005 11:58:38 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

For my father's 70th birthday I prepared an exhibit of photos from his
life. This project involved scanning hundreds of old photos from
albums, cleaning them up and reprinting them as 8x10 prints. For the
b/w photos I scanned them as 8 bit grayscale images, then when I
cleaned them up in photoshop I verified that they were still grayscale.
Since the image had NO "color" information, I'm really baffled as to
why the Epson 2200 thinks it needs to eat up colored ink printing these
images.

If this process produced great images I wouldn't complain, but it
doesn't.

The resulting images are muddy, the color cast is clearly obvious. In
the end I resorted to checking the "use black ink only" option in the
printer preferences, and ignoring Epson's warning that this was
"unsuitable for b/w photos" as it was the ONLY way I could get the
Epson to stop using colored inks and producing *very* unsuitable muddy
prints. I spent an hour on the phone with Epson technical support and
the technician had me trying other settings including "monochrome" - I
thought this had fixed the problem until I printed the 21 step
grayscale image and found pink in the lighter gray fields and blue in
the darker gray fields.

My main gripe is why should I have to go fiddle with these different
printer preference settings *at all* when the image file has NO color
data? Why does the printer think that it should be using colored ink
when the file data says "all of these pixels are a mix of black and
white only"?

I've asked this question before and never received an answer that makes
sense.

I'm about ready to send this printer back to Epson for "service" (or
replacement if it comes to that), as I find this behavior unacceptable.


TIA

jc
Anonymous
March 10, 2005 4:15:01 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

In article <1110473918.524581.5570@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
"JC Dill" <jcdill@gmail.com> wrote:

> [...]
> Since the [B&W] image had NO "color" information, I'm really baffled as to
> why the Epson 2200 thinks it needs to eat up colored ink printing these
> images.

Because the colour inks give the print engine greater range and
flexibility in simulating greyscale. Combinations of the colour and
black inks can obviously produce a decent range of greys, and -- at
least for me -- do so, with enough care.

> If this process produced great images I wouldn't complain, but it
> doesn't.

Well, *your* process doesn't seem to be producing great images, but that
doesn't mean the 2200 can't produce some pretty damn good B&W images
with a suitable colour-managed workflow. I do B&W with the 2200 (and now
the 4000) and while the results aren't always as good as I used to get
in a darkroom, they're pretty damn good (the 2200 seems to be better
than the 4000 at the moment, but I think that's due to the 4000's
profiles being a little out). B&W is definitely iffier than colour with
inkjets, but it's getting pretty close.

The real problem is that the 2200 needs good colour management and
attention to things like profiles -- as you discovered, you can't just
throw a greyscale image at it and have it work every time. I actually do
all my B&W editing in a decent colour space (rather than greyscale), and
the results are cast-free and not "muddy". But that's my own
idiosyncracy.

If you're using an accurate colour-managed workflow (using all the
correct profiles, etc.) and you're still getting casts, there may in
fact be something wrong with the printer. But the fact that it's using
colour ink as well as B&W while printing greyscale isn't a problem, it's
a feature. One that no doubt helps sell ink cartridges, but still an
understandable feature.

> The resulting images are muddy, the color cast is clearly obvious.

[...]

> My main gripe is why should I have to go fiddle with these different
> printer preference settings *at all* when the image file has NO color
> data? Why does the printer think that it should be using colored ink
> when the file data says "all of these pixels are a mix of black and
> white only"?
>
> I've asked this question before and never received an answer that makes
> sense.
>
> I'm about ready to send this printer back to Epson for "service" (or
> replacement if it comes to that), as I find this behavior unacceptable.

I'd stop listening to the Epson people -- some of whom *do* know a lot
about this, but you'll probably never get to talk to them :-) -- and
keep bashing away at this printer (erm, not literally). In my
experience, the top end Epsons are worth it, especially the 2200, which
I've used for literally thousands of B&W prints, for clients or for
myself. It's a nice printer -- and and the prints lining my studio or on
clients' walls, etc., suggest it's capable of at least decent work.

Hamish
Anonymous
March 10, 2005 7:29:06 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

JC Dill wrote:
> For my father's 70th birthday I prepared an exhibit of photos from his
> life. This project involved scanning hundreds of old photos from
> albums, cleaning them up and reprinting them as 8x10 prints. For the
> b/w photos I scanned them as 8 bit grayscale images, then when I
> cleaned them up in photoshop I verified that they were still grayscale.
> Since the image had NO "color" information, I'm really baffled as to
> why the Epson 2200 thinks it needs to eat up colored ink printing these
> images.
>
> If this process produced great images I wouldn't complain, but it
> doesn't.
>
> The resulting images are muddy, the color cast is clearly obvious. In
> the end I resorted to checking the "use black ink only" option in the
> printer preferences, and ignoring Epson's warning that this was
> "unsuitable for b/w photos" as it was the ONLY way I could get the
> Epson to stop using colored inks and producing *very* unsuitable muddy
> prints. I spent an hour on the phone with Epson technical support and
> the technician had me trying other settings including "monochrome" - I
> thought this had fixed the problem until I printed the 21 step
> grayscale image and found pink in the lighter gray fields and blue in
> the darker gray fields.
>
> My main gripe is why should I have to go fiddle with these different
> printer preference settings *at all* when the image file has NO color
> data? Why does the printer think that it should be using colored ink
> when the file data says "all of these pixels are a mix of black and
> white only"?
>
> I've asked this question before and never received an answer that makes
> sense.
>
> I'm about ready to send this printer back to Epson for "service" (or
> replacement if it comes to that), as I find this behavior unacceptable.
>
>
> TIA
>
> jc
>

This is a driver issue. If your driver doesn't have a B&W mode, that
uses only the black ink, then you will get a mixture of the other
colors, and if you look closely, will notice a distinct green tinge to
the picture. Don't blame Epson, it is quite common among color printers.


--
Ron Hunter rphunter@charter.net
Related resources
Anonymous
March 10, 2005 8:15:23 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

"JC Dill" <jcdill@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1110473918.524581.5570@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...

> My main gripe is why should I have to go fiddle with these different
> printer preference settings *at all* when the image file has NO color
> data?

Most printers have just one black cart and have to use "tricks" to make
shades of grey. One way is to use a pattern of dots like a newspaper but
this reduces resolution. Most printers use a mixture of colours to "help"
make shades of grey without reducing resolution. Some printers do a good job
of this and produce neutral B/W prints, others have a warm or cold tone or
even a positive colour tint. You can eliminate the cast by selecting B/W
only but you loose resolution. Hence Epsons comment.

Epson added a light grey to the 2200/2100 to try and improve the B/W
capability but it can only do so much. To improve matters you need to
carefully tune the settings of your printer.

Try this site for tips on how to get the best B/W out of it...

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/printers/2200...

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/printers/2200...

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/printers/2200...
Anonymous
March 10, 2005 8:28:19 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

On 10 Mar 2005 08:58:38 -0800, "JC Dill" <jcdill@gmail.com> wrote:

>For my father's 70th birthday I prepared an exhibit of photos from his
>life. This project involved scanning hundreds of old photos from
>albums, cleaning them up and reprinting them as 8x10 prints. For the
>b/w photos I scanned them as 8 bit grayscale images, then when I
>cleaned them up in photoshop I verified that they were still grayscale.
> Since the image had NO "color" information, I'm really baffled as to
>why the Epson 2200 thinks it needs to eat up colored ink printing these
>images.

If you force the printer to use just black ink it'll look even worse,
believe me. It does this for resolution/tonal depth reasons.

>If this process produced great images I wouldn't complain, but it
>doesn't.

I'm not going to waste your or my time telling you all the stuff you
can try to make it better because you may well never be satisfied
(many people aren't). Here's how you can get perfect 8x10 B&W's on
decent resin-coated professional photographic paper for $2.49 each.
200 Photos will cost about $500, but dad's worth it isn't he? And when
he pops off, you'll get to keep the collection.

http://www.mpix.com

>The resulting images are muddy, the color cast is clearly obvious. In
>the end I resorted to checking the "use black ink only" option in the
>printer preferences, and ignoring Epson's warning that this was
>"unsuitable for b/w photos" as it was the ONLY way I could get the
>Epson to stop using colored inks and producing *very* unsuitable muddy
>prints.

Ah, so you did try that. Ugly eh?

> I spent an hour on the phone with Epson technical support and
>the technician had me trying other settings including "monochrome" - I
>thought this had fixed the problem until I printed the 21 step
>grayscale image and found pink in the lighter gray fields and blue in
>the darker gray fields.

Yep.

>My main gripe is why should I have to go fiddle with these different
>printer preference settings *at all* when the image file has NO color
>data? Why does the printer think that it should be using colored ink
>when the file data says "all of these pixels are a mix of black and
>white only"?

It can't dither the black as smoothly is it can by mixing colors to
give you the tonal range you need. If the printer was armed with a
black cartridge plus 3 levels of gray (instead of CYM) then it could
do a decent job.

HEY, SOMEONE SHOULD MAKE THIS CARTRIDGE! - Just make 3 or 5 pigment
inks that have the same tonal density as the Yellow, Magenta and Cyan,
(more in 6 color systems) but keep them neutral gray and you'll get
people buying a second printer just for B&W - no mods to the driver
required.

>I've asked this question before and never received an answer that makes
>sense.

Mine probably doesn't either. It doesn't matter, use mpix. Compare to
paper and color ink costs for 200 sheets, mpix starts to look mighty
good value, and the prints look infinitely better (full bleed too).

Okay, if you really want to know, here is an article on why they use
the color inks:

Profits.

(kidding)

here it is...

http://www.piezography.com/shutterbug1.html

>I'm about ready to send this printer back to Epson for "service" (or
>replacement if it comes to that), as I find this behavior unacceptable.

As do many.

--
Owamanga!
http://www.pbase.com/owamanga
Anonymous
March 10, 2005 8:28:20 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

Owamanga wrote:

> HEY, SOMEONE SHOULD MAKE THIS CARTRIDGE! - Just make 3 or 5 pigment
> inks that have the same tonal density as the Yellow, Magenta and Cyan,
> (more in 6 color systems) but keep them neutral gray and you'll get
> people buying a second printer just for B&W - no mods to the driver
> required.


It's been done. Search for limited-gamut inksets.
Lyson has them, and I think maybe MIS. Mostly for
Epsons, though.


rafe b.
http://www.terrapinphoto.com
Anonymous
March 10, 2005 9:21:00 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

In rec.photo.digital JC Dill <jcdill@gmail.com> wrote:

> My main gripe is why should I have to go fiddle with these different
> printer preference settings *at all* when the image file has NO
> color data? Why does the printer think that it should be using
> colored ink when the file data says "all of these pixels are a mix
> of black and white only"?

Because to use only the black ink is much worse. The coloured inks
give you much better tonality.

> I've asked this question before and never received an answer that
> makes sense.

OK, here's an answer that makes sense: making perfectly neutral
greyscale prints on an inkjet is really hard.

> I'm about ready to send this printer back to Epson for "service" (or
> replacement if it comes to that), as I find this behavior
> unacceptable.

There are three ways to fix this:

1. Accurate colour profiles. With a good profile for your ink and
paper you can get a decent greyscale.

2. Print using a RIP. This is expensive, but gives much better
control of generation of greyscales.

3. Use small gamut inksets. See http://www.lyson.com/small-gamut.html

Andrew.
Anonymous
March 10, 2005 9:21:01 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

In article <113140c4sv14939@news.supernews.com>,
<andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid> wrote:
>In rec.photo.digital JC Dill <jcdill@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> My main gripe is why should I have to go fiddle with these different
>> printer preference settings *at all* when the image file has NO
>> color data? Why does the printer think that it should be using
>> colored ink when the file data says "all of these pixels are a mix
>> of black and white only"?
>
>Because to use only the black ink is much worse. The coloured inks
>give you much better tonality.
>
>> I've asked this question before and never received an answer that
>> makes sense.
>
>OK, here's an answer that makes sense: making perfectly neutral
>greyscale prints on an inkjet is really hard.
>
>> I'm about ready to send this printer back to Epson for "service" (or
>> replacement if it comes to that), as I find this behavior
>> unacceptable.
>
>There are three ways to fix this:
>
>1. Accurate colour profiles. With a good profile for your ink and
> paper you can get a decent greyscale.
>
>2. Print using a RIP. This is expensive, but gives much better
> control of generation of greyscales.
>
>3. Use small gamut inksets. See http://www.lyson.com/small-gamut.html
>
>Andrew.



Ink systems for B&W printing on Epson printers. www.piezography.com
--

a d y k e s @ p a n i x . c o m

Don't blame me. I voted for Gore.
Anonymous
March 10, 2005 10:41:37 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid wrote:

> In rec.photo.digital JC Dill <jcdill@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> My main gripe is why should I have to go fiddle with these different
>> printer preference settings *at all* when the image file has NO
>> color data? Why does the printer think that it should be using
>> colored ink when the file data says "all of these pixels are a mix
>> of black and white only"?
>
> Because to use only the black ink is much worse. The coloured inks
> give you much better tonality.
>
>> I've asked this question before and never received an answer that
>> makes sense.
>
> OK, here's an answer that makes sense: making perfectly neutral
> greyscale prints on an inkjet is really hard.
>
>> I'm about ready to send this printer back to Epson for "service" (or
>> replacement if it comes to that), as I find this behavior
>> unacceptable.
>
> There are three ways to fix this:
>
> 1. Accurate colour profiles. With a good profile for your ink and
> paper you can get a decent greyscale.
>
> 2. Print using a RIP. This is expensive, but gives much better
> control of generation of greyscales.
>
> 3. Use small gamut inksets. See http://www.lyson.com/small-gamut.html
>
> Andrew.
>

Check out the QTR rip. A personally prefer to use monochrome inks (UT2
from MIS) in my 1280 but a lot of people are getting good results with
stock Epson color inks and the QTR rip in 2200 printers.
March 10, 2005 10:41:38 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

Where's the "QTR rip"????


"Bubbabob" <rnorton@_remove_this_thuntek.net> wrote in message
news:Xns96158120C63BDdilfjelfoiwepofujsdk@216.168.3.30...
> andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid wrote:
>
>> In rec.photo.digital JC Dill <jcdill@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> My main gripe is why should I have to go fiddle with these different
>>> printer preference settings *at all* when the image file has NO
>>> color data? Why does the printer think that it should be using
>>> colored ink when the file data says "all of these pixels are a mix
>>> of black and white only"?
>>
>> Because to use only the black ink is much worse. The coloured inks
>> give you much better tonality.
>>
>>> I've asked this question before and never received an answer that
>>> makes sense.
>>
>> OK, here's an answer that makes sense: making perfectly neutral
>> greyscale prints on an inkjet is really hard.
>>
>>> I'm about ready to send this printer back to Epson for "service" (or
>>> replacement if it comes to that), as I find this behavior
>>> unacceptable.
>>
>> There are three ways to fix this:
>>
>> 1. Accurate colour profiles. With a good profile for your ink and
>> paper you can get a decent greyscale.
>>
>> 2. Print using a RIP. This is expensive, but gives much better
>> control of generation of greyscales.
>>
>> 3. Use small gamut inksets. See http://www.lyson.com/small-gamut.html
>>
>> Andrew.
>>
>
> Check out the QTR rip. A personally prefer to use monochrome inks (UT2
> from MIS) in my 1280 but a lot of people are getting good results with
> stock Epson color inks and the QTR rip in 2200 printers.
Anonymous
March 10, 2005 10:44:14 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

adykes@panix.com (Al Dykes) wrote:

>
> Ink systems for B&W printing on Epson printers. www.piezography.com

These people have overpriced printer clogging inks and poor customer
support. I blew hundreds on their stuff and ended up with several dead
printers and very few prints, most of which have changed noticeably over
the last 3 years. The MIS UT inks are cheaper and much, much better.
Anonymous
March 11, 2005 12:48:48 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

I can't help you but I commend you for doing what you did for your father.

JC Dill wrote:

>For my father's 70th birthday I prepared an exhibit of photos from his
>life. This project involved scanning hundreds of old photos from
>albums, cleaning them up and reprinting them as 8x10 prints. For the
>b/w photos I scanned them as 8 bit grayscale images, then when I
>cleaned them up in photoshop I verified that they were still grayscale.
> Since the image had NO "color" information, I'm really baffled as to
>why the Epson 2200 thinks it needs to eat up colored ink printing these
>images.
>
>If this process produced great images I wouldn't complain, but it
>doesn't.
>
>The resulting images are muddy, the color cast is clearly obvious. In
>the end I resorted to checking the "use black ink only" option in the
>printer preferences, and ignoring Epson's warning that this was
>"unsuitable for b/w photos" as it was the ONLY way I could get the
>Epson to stop using colored inks and producing *very* unsuitable muddy
>prints. I spent an hour on the phone with Epson technical support and
>the technician had me trying other settings including "monochrome" - I
>thought this had fixed the problem until I printed the 21 step
>grayscale image and found pink in the lighter gray fields and blue in
>the darker gray fields.
>
>My main gripe is why should I have to go fiddle with these different
>printer preference settings *at all* when the image file has NO color
>data? Why does the printer think that it should be using colored ink
>when the file data says "all of these pixels are a mix of black and
>white only"?
>
>I've asked this question before and never received an answer that makes
>sense.
>
>I'm about ready to send this printer back to Epson for "service" (or
>replacement if it comes to that), as I find this behavior unacceptable.
>
>
>TIA
>
>jc
>
>
>
Anonymous
March 11, 2005 12:48:49 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

measekite wrote:
> I can't help you but I commend you for doing what you did for your father.
>
> JC Dill wrote:
>
>> For my father's 70th birthday I prepared an exhibit of photos from his
>> life. This project involved scanning hundreds of old photos from
>> albums, cleaning them up and reprinting them as 8x10 prints. For the
>> b/w photos I scanned them as 8 bit grayscale images, then when I
>> cleaned them up in photoshop I verified that they were still grayscale.
>> Since the image had NO "color" information, I'm really baffled as to
>> why the Epson 2200 thinks it needs to eat up colored ink printing these
>> images.
>>
>> If this process produced great images I wouldn't complain, but it
>> doesn't.
[...]

In the Canon's printer setup menu, one of the choices is "gray scale
only." IIRC, Epson has a similar choice. Did you use it?

I wouldn't scan 8bit gray scale, BTW, I would scan full colour, then
work on the photo, then convert to gray scale. But I would keep the full
colour scan. I've found that printing full colour in gray scale gives
somewhat better results (on my Canon i960) than printing a gray scale
picture in gray scale. IMO that's because a full colour pic has a wider
black-white range. I don't know if you'd get the same results wth an Epson.

Another factor in the appearance of b/w images is the paper used.
Overall, I prefer matte photo paper to glossy, mostly because the ink
dulls the shine of a glossy papaer, and os none has the same high gloss
as a real photograph.

HTH&GL
Anonymous
March 11, 2005 1:58:13 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 14:18:28 -0500, rafeb <rafe@nowhere.com> wrote:

>
>
>Owamanga wrote:
>
>> HEY, SOMEONE SHOULD MAKE THIS CARTRIDGE! - Just make 3 or 5 pigment
>> inks that have the same tonal density as the Yellow, Magenta and Cyan,
>> (more in 6 color systems) but keep them neutral gray and you'll get
>> people buying a second printer just for B&W - no mods to the driver
>> required.
>
>
>It's been done. Search for limited-gamut inksets.
>Lyson has them, and I think maybe MIS. Mostly for
>Epsons, though.
>
Yes. And Permajet.

--

Hecate - The Real One
Hecate@newsguy.com
veni, vidi, reliqui
Anonymous
March 11, 2005 1:59:49 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 16:29:06 -0600, Ron Hunter <rphunter@charter.net>
wrote:


>This is a driver issue.

No it isn't. It's a profile and colour management issue.

--

Hecate - The Real One
Hecate@newsguy.com
veni, vidi, reliqui
Anonymous
March 11, 2005 2:47:43 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

"Stealth" <stealth@youllneverfindme.com> wrote:

> Where's the "QTR rip"????
>

<http://harrington.com/index.shtml&gt;

I just KNEW when I posted that that everyone would expect me to do their
Googling for them.
Anonymous
March 11, 2005 11:40:36 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

"Ron Hunter" <rphunter@charter.net> wrote in message
news:104Yd.16876$R31.11315@fe07.lga...
> This is a driver issue. If your driver doesn't have a B&W mode, that
> uses only the black ink, then you will get a mixture of the other
> colors, and if you look closely, will notice a distinct green tinge to
> the picture. Don't blame Epson, it is quite common among color printers.

He does have a B/W mode but that reduces resolution slightly for well
understood reasons. The 2200 is capable of producing good B/W prints when
setup correctly. Experts need the greyscale balancer that comes with the UK
model but not the USA model for some reason. There is lots of info on the
web about how to get it.
Anonymous
March 11, 2005 1:18:13 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

In rec.photo.digital CWatters <colin.watters@pandorabox.be> wrote:

> The 2200 is capable of producing good B/W prints when setup
> correctly. Experts need the greyscale balancer

Experts need colour management. The gray balancer is not really a
substitute. It's better than nothing.

> that comes with the UK model but not the USA model for some reason.

Here, from someone who knows: "I was (along with some others) asked by
Epson America to test it before release. I found it to be one of the
worst pieces of software in recent memory! This was a key reason why
the product was never released in the US."

Andrew.
Anonymous
March 11, 2005 2:14:26 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

Owamanga wrote:

>If you force the printer to use just black ink it'll look even worse,
>believe me. It does this for resolution/tonal depth reasons.

You claim "it'll look even worse" but I saw with my OWN eyes that it
looked much better. The muddy prints were outright embarassing, the
pure black/white ones were usable.

jc
Anonymous
March 11, 2005 2:27:32 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

Hecate wrote:

>On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 16:29:06 -0600, Ron Hunter <rphun...@charter.net>
wrote:

>>This is a driver issue.

Um, Espon provides the driver for their printer, right? I don't care
what part of the package is causing the problem, it all comes from
Epson...

>No it isn't. It's a profile and colour management issue.

I don't understand how it's a "profile and colour management" issue
when the image has NO color information in it. As I understand it,
profile and color management is used to match what you see on your
monitor with what you see in the print. But I'm not trying to "match
with the monitor", I'm trying to just print what I scanned, a B/W image
that was scanned in 8 bit grayscale. The scanner scanned it as an
image with no color information, photoshop sees it as an image with no
color information so why does the printer think it's supposed to add
color AND produce an image with obvious color cast? Like I said, if it
was magically using the colored inks to create a color neutral image, I
wouldn't mind that it used the color inks to get there. But it's
creating muddy prints with an obvious color cast (like sepia tone, only
not as attractive). It even did this when I used the color management
settings in the printer properties and set it to monochrome.

Sigh.
Anonymous
March 11, 2005 6:06:42 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

JC Dill wrote:

> I don't understand how it's a "profile and colour management" issue
> when the image has NO color information in it. As I understand it,
> profile and color management is used to match what you see on your
> monitor with what you see in the print. But I'm not trying to "match
> with the monitor", I'm trying to just print what I scanned, a B/W image
> that was scanned in 8 bit grayscale. The scanner scanned it as an
> image with no color information, photoshop sees it as an image with no
> color information so why does the printer think it's supposed to add
> color AND produce an image with obvious color cast? Like I said, if it
> was magically using the colored inks to create a color neutral image, I
> wouldn't mind that it used the color inks to get there. But it's
> creating muddy prints with an obvious color cast (like sepia tone, only
> not as attractive). It even did this when I used the color management
> settings in the printer properties and set it to monochrome.


It's like this. The printer has (let's say)
64 nozzles for each color. In the case of the
2200, there are six colors, so there are six
sets of 64 nozzles, one set per color.

The best image happens when all (6 * 64) nozzles
are contributing to the image, and that will be
the case when printing a true RGB image.

When you force the printer to print with black
only, you've now constricted the printer to use
1/6 the available ink nozzles.

In most cases, that produces an image with a
much coarser dither pattern than the printer
is capable of. But it will be neutral, since
only the Black ink is used.

Now... if instead you want to use all (6* 64)
nozzles, you introduce the possibility of a
non-neutral BW print, since you're trying to
get "pure" grays and blacks from wide-gamut
color inks.

In order for that to work, the contributions
of the five color primaries (CMY,lc,lm) have
to be perfectly balanced, all up and down the
tonal scale -- and that's where a good printer
profile comes in.

There are some RIPs that work around this, in
varying ways, though I really don't know how.
I've heard people say that the ImagePrint RIP
delivers perfectly neutral BW prints with the
standard Ultrachrome inks, but I haven't seen
it myself.

The best method for producing really neutral
BW prints (and using all nozzles) is with a
BW ink set, eg., the Piezo inkset from Cone
or the MIS inkset, along with a suitable RIP.
(Eg., Harrington's Quadtone RIP.) Of course,
this pretty much means "dedicating" a printer
to BW work, as it's really impractical to
switch inks on any inkjet printer.


rafe b.
http://www.terrapinphoto.com
Anonymous
March 11, 2005 10:25:17 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

On 11 Mar 2005 11:14:26 -0800, "JC Dill" <jcdill@gmail.com> wrote:

>Owamanga wrote:
>
>>If you force the printer to use just black ink it'll look even worse,
>>believe me. It does this for resolution/tonal depth reasons.
>
>You claim "it'll look even worse" but I saw with my OWN eyes that it
>looked much better. The muddy prints were outright embarassing, the
>pure black/white ones were usable.

Okay, put it this way, a proper color calibrated BW print using color
inks will look *much* better than the black-only ones. Although
broadly 'acceptable' I've never been able to match the nutrality of a
true Black & White digital wet print such as the ones from mpix.

I don't actually have the 2200, I use a 1270 (it's a 13" wide
predecessor, using different ink), but the concept is the same.

--
Owamanga!
http://www.pbase.com/owamanga
Anonymous
March 11, 2005 10:37:58 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

On 11 Mar 2005 11:27:32 -0800, "JC Dill" <jcdill@gmail.com> wrote:

>Hecate wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 16:29:06 -0600, Ron Hunter <rphun...@charter.net>
>wrote:
>
>>>This is a driver issue.
>
>Um, Espon provides the driver for their printer, right? I don't care
>what part of the package is causing the problem, it all comes from
>Epson...

You are claiming the following:
The printer comes from Epson. Agreed.
The driver comes from Epson. Agreed.
The ink comes from Epson. Agreed.
The paper comes from Epson. Does it?
The software comes from Epson. No. Probably Adobe.
The PC operating system comes from Epson. No - Microsoft.
The color management software comes from Epson. No - Adobe again.

>>No it isn't. It's a profile and colour management issue.
>
>I don't understand how it's a "profile and colour management" issue
>when the image has NO color information in it.

But the print *does*. That's how it gets nice tonal grays.

> As I understand it,
>profile and color management is used to match what you see on your
>monitor with what you see in the print.

Massive over simplification.

Calibrated systems need to match OS, screen, software, printer,
scanner, paper, inks. You can't just stop half way.

> But I'm not trying to "match
>with the monitor", I'm trying to just print what I scanned, a B/W image
>that was scanned in 8 bit grayscale. The scanner scanned it as an
>image with no color information, photoshop sees it as an image with no
>color information so why does the printer think it's supposed to add
>color AND produce an image with obvious color cast? Like I said, if it
>was magically using the colored inks to create a color neutral image, I
>wouldn't mind that it used the color inks to get there. But it's
>creating muddy prints with an obvious color cast (like sepia tone, only
>not as attractive).

Look, try and imagine what the driver is doing. It's got to decide the
ratios of each ink color it needs to dump on the paper to get gray. A
bad color profile, and it'll dump too much yellow, giving you sepia
prints. Mine tended to be green, count yourself lucky.

It's not just about the ink, but the resolution you are printing at
and most importantly, how does the ink react with *that paper* you
have loaded. If your profile doesn't mention the exact paper type, you
are *not* going to get gray even if the rest of your system is
perfect, and you absolutely critically need gray with no color cast at
all. This requires a good color profile.

> It even did this when I used the color management
>settings in the printer properties and set it to monochrome.

You *still* get a cast - even when forcing it to just use only black
ink? That bit I can't explain. Shitty paper maybe, tungsten lighting?

--
Owamanga!
http://www.pbase.com/owamanga
Anonymous
March 11, 2005 10:42:28 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 19:37:58 GMT, Owamanga
<owamanga(not-this-bit)@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> It even did this when I used the color management
>>settings in the printer properties and set it to monochrome.
>
>You *still* get a cast - even when forcing it to just use only black
>ink? That bit I can't explain. Shitty paper maybe, tungsten lighting?

...add another one: Cataracts?

--
Owamanga!
http://www.pbase.com/owamanga
Anonymous
March 12, 2005 3:07:26 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

On 11 Mar 2005 11:27:32 -0800, "JC Dill" <jcdill@gmail.com> wrote:

>Hecate wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 16:29:06 -0600, Ron Hunter <rphun...@charter.net>
>wrote:
>

>>No it isn't. It's a profile and colour management issue.
>
>I don't understand how it's a "profile and colour management" issue

If you've read all the posts above you should do now.

--

Hecate - The Real One
Hecate@newsguy.com
veni, vidi, reliqui
Anonymous
March 12, 2005 11:17:05 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

It could also be a paper type issue. The 2200 needs to know the
correct paper in its settings or it lays down too much/too little ink.

I just got a new computer with the epson drivers. The new driver is
missing paper types which were on earlier releases. So, my first color
prints coming out are looking both too red and too muddy.

Did JC confirm that he is selecting the right paper type for his
printout. In OS X, this is found under the Print Setting option on one
of the printer dialog box's menus.

Gary
Anonymous
March 12, 2005 2:10:13 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

This posting just goes to prove you are never going to please everyone.

Overall, the use of the color inks to produce a monochrome print allows
for several features. One, you can easily tone or duo-tone an image.
Many people prefer to have a sepia or other tonal range in their
monochrome images, and secondly, the smoothness of the image can be
improved by providing much more dithered results than using just one or
two levels of black ink.

However, the result, in a perfect world would be almost completely
monochromic gray scale rather than showing color casts. Although not
perfect. Epson's drivers, in general allow for fairly neutral full color
ink images when produced from a monochrome source. If you are using 3rd
party inks that may explain the results being less than perfect.

Most Epson drivers allow for you to turn the driver on for monochromic
prints using just the black inks.

Art

JC Dill wrote:

> For my father's 70th birthday I prepared an exhibit of photos from his
> life. This project involved scanning hundreds of old photos from
> albums, cleaning them up and reprinting them as 8x10 prints. For the
> b/w photos I scanned them as 8 bit grayscale images, then when I
> cleaned them up in photoshop I verified that they were still grayscale.
> Since the image had NO "color" information, I'm really baffled as to
> why the Epson 2200 thinks it needs to eat up colored ink printing these
> images.
>
> If this process produced great images I wouldn't complain, but it
> doesn't.
>
> The resulting images are muddy, the color cast is clearly obvious. In
> the end I resorted to checking the "use black ink only" option in the
> printer preferences, and ignoring Epson's warning that this was
> "unsuitable for b/w photos" as it was the ONLY way I could get the
> Epson to stop using colored inks and producing *very* unsuitable muddy
> prints. I spent an hour on the phone with Epson technical support and
> the technician had me trying other settings including "monochrome" - I
> thought this had fixed the problem until I printed the 21 step
> grayscale image and found pink in the lighter gray fields and blue in
> the darker gray fields.
>
> My main gripe is why should I have to go fiddle with these different
> printer preference settings *at all* when the image file has NO color
> data? Why does the printer think that it should be using colored ink
> when the file data says "all of these pixels are a mix of black and
> white only"?
>
> I've asked this question before and never received an answer that makes
> sense.
>
> I'm about ready to send this printer back to Epson for "service" (or
> replacement if it comes to that), as I find this behavior unacceptable.
>
>
> TIA
>
> jc
>
Anonymous
March 12, 2005 2:10:14 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

Some printers (apparently not Epshun) also have a B&W cart with lighter
'blacks' to do justice to proper greyscale imagery.


On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 11:10:13 GMT, Arthur Entlich <artistic@telus.net> found
these unused words floating about:

>This posting just goes to prove you are never going to please everyone.
>
>Overall, the use of the color inks to produce a monochrome print allows
>for several features. One, you can easily tone or duo-tone an image.
>Many people prefer to have a sepia or other tonal range in their
>monochrome images, and secondly, the smoothness of the image can be
>improved by providing much more dithered results than using just one or
>two levels of black ink.
>
>However, the result, in a perfect world would be almost completely
>monochromic gray scale rather than showing color casts. Although not
>perfect. Epson's drivers, in general allow for fairly neutral full color
>ink images when produced from a monochrome source. If you are using 3rd
>party inks that may explain the results being less than perfect.
>
>Most Epson drivers allow for you to turn the driver on for monochromic
>prints using just the black inks.
>
>Art
>
>JC Dill wrote:
>
>> For my father's 70th birthday I prepared an exhibit of photos from his
>> life. This project involved scanning hundreds of old photos from
>> albums, cleaning them up and reprinting them as 8x10 prints. For the
>> b/w photos I scanned them as 8 bit grayscale images, then when I
>> cleaned them up in photoshop I verified that they were still grayscale.
>> Since the image had NO "color" information, I'm really baffled as to
>> why the Epson 2200 thinks it needs to eat up colored ink printing these
>> images.
>>
>> If this process produced great images I wouldn't complain, but it
>> doesn't.
>>
>> The resulting images are muddy, the color cast is clearly obvious. In
>> the end I resorted to checking the "use black ink only" option in the
>> printer preferences, and ignoring Epson's warning that this was
>> "unsuitable for b/w photos" as it was the ONLY way I could get the
>> Epson to stop using colored inks and producing *very* unsuitable muddy
>> prints. I spent an hour on the phone with Epson technical support and
>> the technician had me trying other settings including "monochrome" - I
>> thought this had fixed the problem until I printed the 21 step
>> grayscale image and found pink in the lighter gray fields and blue in
>> the darker gray fields.
>>
>> My main gripe is why should I have to go fiddle with these different
>> printer preference settings *at all* when the image file has NO color
>> data? Why does the printer think that it should be using colored ink
>> when the file data says "all of these pixels are a mix of black and
>> white only"?
>>
>> I've asked this question before and never received an answer that makes
>> sense.
>>
>> I'm about ready to send this printer back to Epson for "service" (or
>> replacement if it comes to that), as I find this behavior unacceptable.
>>
>>
>> TIA
>>
>> jc
>>
Anonymous
March 12, 2005 2:10:15 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

In article <f186315u02hmnpafaof38s1cfeqpc0h2h2@4ax.com>,
J. A. Mc. <jaSPAMc@gbr.online.com> wrote:

> Some printers (apparently not Epshun) also have a B&W cart with lighter
> 'blacks' to do justice to proper greyscale imagery.

The "Epshun" that's the subject of this thread has -- like all high-end
Epsons -- a light grey ink cart as well as the dark (black) cart.

Hamish
Anonymous
March 12, 2005 7:57:24 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

"JC Dill" <jcdill@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1110569252.858245.20470@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> I don't understand how it's a "profile and colour management" issue
> when the image has NO color information in it. As I understand it,
> profile and color management is used to match what you see on your
> monitor with what you see in the print. But I'm not trying to "match
> with the monitor", I'm trying to just print what I scanned, a B/W image
> that was scanned in 8 bit grayscale. The scanner scanned it as an
> image with no color information, photoshop sees it as an image with no
> color information so why does the printer think it's supposed to add
> color AND produce an image with obvious color cast?

We've explained this already. The printer driver mixes colours to make extra
grey levels. The alternative would be for it to use just use the black and
grey carts and use a dot pattern a bit like a newspaper does - that reduces
resolution slightly compared to what can be achived by making extra greys
using the colours.
Anonymous
March 13, 2005 1:27:26 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 09:01:24 -0800, J. A. Mc. <jaSPAMc@gbr.online.com>
wrote:

>Some printers (apparently not Epshun) also have a B&W cart with lighter
>'blacks' to do justice to proper greyscale imagery.
>
The 2100/2200 does have a single light black (gray) cartridge. Of
course the perfect solution is to buy something like the Lyson inks or
the Permajet VTBlax. But you have to dedicate the printer to B&W if
you do that.

--

Hecate - The Real One
Hecate@newsguy.com
veni, vidi, reliqui
Anonymous
March 13, 2005 6:23:06 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

You get two blacks with the 2200, a low colorant load black and a deep
black. (and two deep blacks, a glossy and matte version). If this isn't
enough, the printers can be accommodated with a 4 or 6 shade system of
black inks with 3rd party inks and drivers.

Art

J. A. Mc. wrote:

> Some printers (apparently not Epshun) also have a B&W cart with lighter
> 'blacks' to do justice to proper greyscale imagery.
>
>
> On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 11:10:13 GMT, Arthur Entlich <artistic@telus.net> found
> these unused words floating about:
>
>
>>This posting just goes to prove you are never going to please everyone.
>>
>>Overall, the use of the color inks to produce a monochrome print allows
>>for several features. One, you can easily tone or duo-tone an image.
>>Many people prefer to have a sepia or other tonal range in their
>>monochrome images, and secondly, the smoothness of the image can be
>>improved by providing much more dithered results than using just one or
>>two levels of black ink.
>>
>>However, the result, in a perfect world would be almost completely
>>monochromic gray scale rather than showing color casts. Although not
>>perfect. Epson's drivers, in general allow for fairly neutral full color
>>ink images when produced from a monochrome source. If you are using 3rd
>>party inks that may explain the results being less than perfect.
>>
>>Most Epson drivers allow for you to turn the driver on for monochromic
>>prints using just the black inks.
>>
>>Art
>>
Anonymous
March 22, 2005 2:39:58 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

On 10 Mar 2005 08:58:38 -0800, "JC Dill" <jcdill@gmail.com> wrote:

> Since the image had NO "color" information, I'm really baffled as to
>why the Epson 2200 thinks it needs to eat up colored ink printing these
>images.

I'm not going to explain everything in detail, but here are some hints:

It uses the colored inks to give you good resolution and with proper
profiles/color management or a suitable RIP color cast free B/W prints.
Printing with only black/light grey has to use heavy dithering to
produce a rich B/W tonal range.

The printer's light grey is pretty brownish, mixing pure black and pure
light grey gives a brown color cast. To compensate this the printer has
to use cyan and magenta!

I don't know what driver settings you used, but it doesn't help to feed
the printer with a grayscale image because the windows (you used it,
didn't you) printer driver internal stuff converts grayscale back to
RGB.

>
>If this process produced great images I wouldn't complain, but it
>doesn't.
>
>The resulting images are muddy, the color cast is clearly obvious. In
>the end I resorted to checking the "use black ink only" option in the
>printer preferences, and ignoring Epson's warning that this was
>"unsuitable for b/w photos" as it was the ONLY way I could get the
>Epson to stop using colored inks and producing *very* unsuitable muddy
>prints. I spent an hour on the phone with Epson technical support and
>the technician had me trying other settings including "monochrome" - I
>thought this had fixed the problem until I printed the 21 step
>grayscale image and found pink in the lighter gray fields and blue in
>the darker gray fields.

Make your life easy: Google for Harrington QuadToneRIP (QTR). It's
shareware, it's cheap, worth the money and gives you instant access to
color cast free B/W printing. With QTR you can control what color cast
your B/W prints should have (cool grey, neutral grey, sepia, etc.). I'm
really impressed what QTR offers.

>
>My main gripe is why should I have to go fiddle with these different
>printer preference settings *at all* when the image file has NO color
>data?

I'm not sure if Windows' GDI (used by the printing subsystem) knows
about greyscale. Greyscale might be silently converted back to RGB but
with R=G=B, so ideally it should be color cast free greyscale. Hehe,
don't expect ideal things with Windows (couldn't resist...).

Printing good B/W is kind of an art. It's possible without additional
software but you have to know what to do. Your printer is nevertheless a
very good starting point (I have the european version (Epson Stylus
Photo 2100) which includes Grey Enhancer, a software Epson refuses to
add to the 2200).


>I've asked this question before and never received an answer that makes
>sense.

Well: 42! Maybe you didn't ask the "proper" question? Maybe you didn't
google for yourself? A lot of web pages which deal with B/W printing
(mostly with Epson printers) do explain a lot of your questions. Learn
to search the internet!

>I'm about ready to send this printer back to Epson for "service" (or
>replacement if it comes to that), as I find this behavior unacceptable.

That won't help you...

BTW, why did you buy an Epson 2200? Which inks do you use? Which paper
did you use for your B/W printing?
You don't give much information what you do. How can you expect other
people to help you???


\relax\bye % Viktor 8-)
Anonymous
March 22, 2005 7:19:08 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

"Viktor Darnedde" <viktor_usenet@gmx.de> wrote in message
news:nb7e31963tvht81vn49t4umhtfufp3s5ns@4ax.com...
> On 10 Mar 2005 08:58:38 -0800, "JC Dill" <jcdill@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Since the image had NO "color" information, I'm really baffled as to
> >why the Epson 2200 thinks it needs to eat up colored ink printing these
> >images.
>
> I'm not going to explain everything in detail, but here are some hints:
>
> It uses the colored inks to give you good resolution and with proper
> profiles/color management or a suitable RIP color cast free B/W prints.
> Printing with only black/light grey has to use heavy dithering to
> produce a rich B/W tonal range.


It's been a while since I printed a B&W photo so I decided to run a quick
test on my Epson 2100...

I took a colour photo and converted it to greyscale using Irfanview then
printed it on TDK Pro Quality Photo Glossy (my favorite glossy paper for the
2100). I used the out of the box drivers and default/automatic settings, no
extra profiles, greyscale balancing or other tweaking..

Settings were
Glossy Photo paper
Glossy Black cart
Colour
Mode = Auto
Quality slider set to Quality

The resulting black and white print looks very neutral when viewed outside
in daylight with a light cloud cover. In fact to my untrained eye it looks
close to perfect.

I expected some change when viewed indoors under artificial light but
perhaps not quite so dramatic as I got. The same print looks quite
brown/pink or blue depending on the light source. Is there any evidence that
inkjet prints exhibit a different response to lighting than conventional
film prints?
Anonymous
March 23, 2005 3:59:43 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 16:19:08 GMT, "CWatters"
<colin.watters@pandoraBOX.be> wrote:


>The resulting black and white print looks very neutral when viewed outside
>in daylight with a light cloud cover. In fact to my untrained eye it looks
>close to perfect.
>
>I expected some change when viewed indoors under artificial light but
>perhaps not quite so dramatic as I got. The same print looks quite
>brown/pink or blue depending on the light source. Is there any evidence that
>inkjet prints exhibit a different response to lighting than conventional
>film prints?
>
It's not really a different response. I find that the light source
alters the colour pe4rception, sometimes subtly, sometimes not so
subtly, whatever you're viewing. It's down to metamerism. You can
check each light source with a GATF RHEM light indicator. The only
source I trust for my images is in the room I do my photoshopping and
printing where the indicator shows the light source to be suitable for
colour correct work.

--

Hecate - The Real One
Hecate@newsguy.com
Fashion: Buying things you don't need, with money
you don't have, to impress people you don't like...
Anonymous
March 30, 2005 3:04:01 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

Owamanga! wrote:

>You are claiming the following:
>The printer comes from Epson. Agreed.
>The driver comes from Epson. Agreed.
>The ink comes from Epson. Agreed.
>The paper comes from Epson. Does it?

I have tried both Epson papers and Kirkland (Ilford) papers. Same
problem with both papers. In any case, the paper used doesn't change
the INK used, the ink is colore tinted ink and produces a colored image
on all papers.

>The software comes from Epson. No. Probably Adobe.
>The PC operating system comes from Epson. No - Microsoft.
>The color management software comes from Epson. No - Adobe again.

I'm not using ANY color management sofware. Why should I, the image is
in *gray* scale - it has NO color. Why should the operating system
have any impact on this, the operating system isn't handling the
details of the color of the image. The Adobe software is only used to
verify that the image is in fact in *gray* scale - I have the same
problems printing from Irfanview, from XnView, or from either of my
browers (Firefox, IE), which makes the common component of interest the
driver and printer.

I still don't understand WHY the driver/printer is using colored inks
and producing images with an obvious color cast, *even* when I've
selected the grayscale printer property.

sigh

jc
Anonymous
March 30, 2005 3:07:00 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

Gary wrote:

>It could also be a paper type issue.

I was using the right paper type. I was on the phone with Epson for
over an hour, and we tried Epson glossy, semi-gloss, and Kirkland
(Ilford) semi-gloss papers, all with the right paper type settings, and
I had obviously color-tinted B/W prints from each of these attempts.

jc
Anonymous
March 30, 2005 3:10:54 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

Wolf wrote:

>Google on "color calibration monitor". It's the monitor that's the
>problem, not the printer. If it doesn't print what you see on the
>monitor, that's the monitor's fault, not the printer's.

ARUGH. I don't CARE what the monitor shows. The file is a *grayscale*
file, therefore it only has image data for shades of gray. I want the
printer to print in shades of gray, per the data in the FILE. I
shouldn't need to "profile my monitor" to get the printer to correctly
print the grayscale data that is in the FILE.

The monitor is an output device, the printer is an output device. The
printer should correctly output the grayscale image irrespective of
what the monitor outputs.

jc
Anonymous
March 30, 2005 3:15:10 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

Art wrote:

>Epson's drivers, in general allow for fairly neutral full color
>ink images when produced from a monochrome source. If you are using
3rd
>party inks that may explain the results being less than perfect.

This problem occured with the Epson ink cartridges that came with the
printer and persisted with the Espon ink cartridges purchased to
replace the ones that were used up (I used up 2 pale blue and 2 pale
pink cartridge (and one dark black cartridge)) while printing these
"black and white" photos (before I switched to forcing the printer to
print with JUST the black ink for the remaining photos).

jc
March 30, 2005 3:24:23 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

Perhaps because, from the ground up, the 2200 (as are all Epson printers)
designed to be COLOR printers...


<jcdill@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1112166241.634663.250120@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> Owamanga! wrote:
>
>>You are claiming the following:
>>The printer comes from Epson. Agreed.
>>The driver comes from Epson. Agreed.
>>The ink comes from Epson. Agreed.
>>The paper comes from Epson. Does it?
>
> I have tried both Epson papers and Kirkland (Ilford) papers. Same
> problem with both papers. In any case, the paper used doesn't change
> the INK used, the ink is colore tinted ink and produces a colored image
> on all papers.
>
>>The software comes from Epson. No. Probably Adobe.
>>The PC operating system comes from Epson. No - Microsoft.
>>The color management software comes from Epson. No - Adobe again.
>
> I'm not using ANY color management sofware. Why should I, the image is
> in *gray* scale - it has NO color. Why should the operating system
> have any impact on this, the operating system isn't handling the
> details of the color of the image. The Adobe software is only used to
> verify that the image is in fact in *gray* scale - I have the same
> problems printing from Irfanview, from XnView, or from either of my
> browers (Firefox, IE), which makes the common component of interest the
> driver and printer.
>
> I still don't understand WHY the driver/printer is using colored inks
> and producing images with an obvious color cast, *even* when I've
> selected the grayscale printer property.
>
> sigh
>
> jc
>
Anonymous
March 30, 2005 8:23:19 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

<jcdill@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1112166654.725884.176550@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> Wolf wrote:
>
>>Google on "color calibration monitor". It's the monitor that's the
>>problem, not the printer. If it doesn't print what you see on the
>>monitor, that's the monitor's fault, not the printer's.
>
> ARUGH. I don't CARE what the monitor shows. The file is a *grayscale*
> file, therefore it only has image data for shades of gray. I want the
> printer to print in shades of gray, per the data in the FILE. I
> shouldn't need to "profile my monitor" to get the printer to correctly
> print the grayscale data that is in the FILE.
>
> The monitor is an output device, the printer is an output device. The
> printer should correctly output the grayscale image irrespective of
> what the monitor outputs.
>
> jc
>
Wow, you've gotten some interesting answers. As far as I know, there's only
two ways to beat the "color printer printing grayscale images." One is to
use only grayscale inks, an option several of my acquaintances have gone
for. I've forgotten the mfr. name, starts with an "L", but they make
dedicated inks for grayscale printing for Epson printers. The other way is
to use a different driver. There are several on the market, but right now,
your printer basically doesn't believe that you really don't want any color.

--
Skip Middleton
http://www.shadowcatcherimagery.com
Anonymous
March 30, 2005 8:27:34 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

<jcdill@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1112166910.075845.203790@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> Art wrote:
>
>>Epson's drivers, in general allow for fairly neutral full color
>>ink images when produced from a monochrome source. If you are using
> 3rd
>>party inks that may explain the results being less than perfect.
>
> This problem occured with the Epson ink cartridges that came with the
> printer and persisted with the Espon ink cartridges purchased to
> replace the ones that were used up (I used up 2 pale blue and 2 pale
> pink cartridge (and one dark black cartridge)) while printing these
> "black and white" photos (before I switched to forcing the printer to
> print with JUST the black ink for the remaining photos).
>
> jc
>
Just in case you're starting to feel like no one gets it, I had consistent
problems with my Epson 880 getting color tinged greyscale images. As do
everybody else I know with Epson 1200, 2000 and 2200, which is why the ones
who want good prints use dedicated b&w inks in a dedicated 2200 printer.
I've never seen "neutral" b&w images from an unmodified Epson printer, all
have had a slight color tinge. The manager at the local Calumet was
experimenting with a new driver and getting amazing tones from his 2200,
I'll check with him today and see what driver he was using. All I remember
was that it was $500 or so...

--
Skip Middleton
http://www.shadowcatcherimagery.com
Anonymous
March 31, 2005 3:33:23 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

jcdill@gmail.com wrote:

> Wolf wrote:
>
>
>>Google on "color calibration monitor". It's the monitor that's the
>>problem, not the printer. If it doesn't print what you see on the
>>monitor, that's the monitor's fault, not the printer's.
>
>
> ARUGH. I don't CARE what the monitor shows. The file is a *grayscale*
> file, therefore it only has image data for shades of gray. I want the
> printer to print in shades of gray, per the data in the FILE. I
> shouldn't need to "profile my monitor" to get the printer to correctly
> print the grayscale data that is in the FILE.
>
> The monitor is an output device, the printer is an output device. The
> printer should correctly output the grayscale image irrespective of
> what the monitor outputs.
>
> jc
>


I tracked down the same issue on the Epson C82 printer on my Mac OSX
computer. The print driver from Epson forced color ink for greyscale
printing on all papers except matte finish because the black ink would
not stick to the glossy surfaces. I realize the C82 is not a "Photo"
printer but it does a very good job with black ink only on the matte
papers. Besides, I prefer matte paper for normal viewing situations.
Glare in spaces with uncontrolled lighting ruins print viewing for me.

-Guy
Anonymous
March 31, 2005 3:45:11 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

On 29 Mar 2005 23:04:01 -0800, "jcdill@gmail.com" <jcdill@gmail.com>
wrote:


>I still don't understand WHY the driver/printer is using colored inks
>and producing images with an obvious color cast, *even* when I've
>selected the grayscale printer property.
>
It's been explained to you several times before so let's have one
*more* try:

The printer uses black ink for black. It uses "paper white" (i.e. the
base colour) for white. Anything in between, i.e. the shades of gray
are simulated by MIXING THE COLOURS.

Consequently, you need PROPER COLOUR MANAGEMENT to get the gradations
of gray that you require to get a cool, neutral or warm print.

If you don't understand what I've told you please get a book on colour
management, or one that contains a chapter on colour management.

--

Hecate - The Real One
Hecate@newsguy.com
Fashion: Buying things you don't need, with money
you don't have, to impress people you don't like...
Anonymous
March 31, 2005 3:45:33 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

"Hecate" <hecate@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:vpam41p0psei0rmosj41bv2lirgjr4avik@4ax.com...
> On 29 Mar 2005 23:04:01 -0800, "jcdill@gmail.com" <jcdill@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>>I still don't understand WHY the driver/printer is using colored inks
>>and producing images with an obvious color cast, *even* when I've
>>selected the grayscale printer property.
>>
> It's been explained to you several times before so let's have one
> *more* try:
>
> The printer uses black ink for black. It uses "paper white" (i.e. the
> base colour) for white. Anything in between, i.e. the shades of gray
> are simulated by MIXING THE COLOURS.
>
> Consequently, you need PROPER COLOUR MANAGEMENT to get the gradations
> of gray that you require to get a cool, neutral or warm print.
>
> If you don't understand what I've told you please get a book on colour
> management, or one that contains a chapter on colour management.
>

You do also find that 'black' inks.. errr.. arn't. 3rd party inks especially
are often tinted towards magenta or green instead of true black, and the
paper used can make that difference quite noticable.
Anonymous
March 31, 2005 3:46:56 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 04:27:34 -0800, "Skip M" <shadowcatcher@cox.net>
wrote:


>Just in case you're starting to feel like no one gets it, I had consistent
>problems with my Epson 880 getting color tinged greyscale images. As do
>everybody else I know with Epson 1200, 2000 and 2200, which is why the ones
>who want good prints use dedicated b&w inks in a dedicated 2200 printer.
>I've never seen "neutral" b&w images from an unmodified Epson printer, all
>have had a slight color tinge.

I get them all the time. It completely depends upon the colour
management system you use, the inks that you use and the paper
choices. I can successfully get either as cool, neutral or warm tone
print almost at will now.

--

Hecate - The Real One
Hecate@newsguy.com
Fashion: Buying things you don't need, with money
you don't have, to impress people you don't like...
Anonymous
March 31, 2005 2:47:35 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

>>>>> "Hecate" == Hecate <hecate@newsguy.com> writes:

Hecate> The printer uses black ink for black. It uses "paper
Hecate> white" (i.e. the base colour) for white. Anything in
Hecate> between, i.e. the shades of gray are simulated by MIXING
Hecate> THE COLOURS.

errrr....

According to my reading of the Epson website, the Epson Styles Photo
2200 (I assume this is the same printer?) is a 7 color ink jet
printer, and the colors are:

Photo black
Cyan
Magenta
Yellow
Light Cyan
Light Magenta
Light Black
Matte Black

Yes, thats 8 colors, my impression is you have to choose if you want
to install Photo black or Matte black.

To the original poster:

What ink cartridges do you have installed? I assume you have photo
black and light black?

To this poster:

I believe the "light black" ink color should mean true black and white
photo printing is possible without resorting to colored inks.

Disclaimer:

I have the HP7960, 8 ink colors, and it seems to work fine for black
and white prints. I don't have the Epson.
--
Brian May <bam@snoopy.apana.org.au>
Anonymous
March 31, 2005 6:24:47 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

In general, Epson's drivers do produce relatively neutral monotone
(greyscale) images if Epson inks and papers are used. Using the full
color inks is supposed to provide a smoother gradient because the number
of dots is increased considerably. The idea is by using the colored
inks in equal densities, the inks should appear neutral grey. It's not
easy to accomplish, since the drivers use 2 pigment loads for the C and
M but only one for the Y.

I don't know enough about the 2200 as to if the driver can be convinced
to just use the light and full pigment load blacks. I believe the light
load black tends to be warm, but having the two densities should in
principal allow for a reasonable monochrome grey print.

Art

jcdill@gmail.com wrote:

> Art wrote:
>
>
>>Epson's drivers, in general allow for fairly neutral full color
>>ink images when produced from a monochrome source. If you are using
>
> 3rd
>
>>party inks that may explain the results being less than perfect.
>
>
> This problem occured with the Epson ink cartridges that came with the
> printer and persisted with the Espon ink cartridges purchased to
> replace the ones that were used up (I used up 2 pale blue and 2 pale
> pink cartridge (and one dark black cartridge)) while printing these
> "black and white" photos (before I switched to forcing the printer to
> print with JUST the black ink for the remaining photos).
>
> jc
>
Anonymous
March 31, 2005 7:09:05 PM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

BTW, that issue was resolved (regarding the black ink sticking to glossy
paper), first by introducing a different paper and new driver, and
secondly, by a new black ink formulation starting with the C84.

The original reason this was done was to make a super fast drying black
ink for office text work where 8-12 pages a second was expected from
using laser printers.

Art

Guy Jordan wrote:

> jcdill@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> Wolf wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Google on "color calibration monitor". It's the monitor that's the
>>> problem, not the printer. If it doesn't print what you see on the
>>> monitor, that's the monitor's fault, not the printer's.
>>
>>
>>
>> ARUGH. I don't CARE what the monitor shows. The file is a *grayscale*
>> file, therefore it only has image data for shades of gray. I want the
>> printer to print in shades of gray, per the data in the FILE. I
>> shouldn't need to "profile my monitor" to get the printer to correctly
>> print the grayscale data that is in the FILE.
>>
>> The monitor is an output device, the printer is an output device. The
>> printer should correctly output the grayscale image irrespective of
>> what the monitor outputs.
>>
>> jc
>>
>
>
> I tracked down the same issue on the Epson C82 printer on my Mac OSX
> computer. The print driver from Epson forced color ink for greyscale
> printing on all papers except matte finish because the black ink would
> not stick to the glossy surfaces. I realize the C82 is not a "Photo"
> printer but it does a very good job with black ink only on the matte
> papers. Besides, I prefer matte paper for normal viewing situations.
> Glare in spaces with uncontrolled lighting ruins print viewing for me.
>
> -Guy
>
Anonymous
April 1, 2005 6:12:45 AM

Archived from groups: rec.photo.digital,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 10:47:35 +1000, Brian May
<bam@snoopy.apana.org.au> wrote:

>>>>>> "Hecate" == Hecate <hecate@newsguy.com> writes:
>
> Hecate> The printer uses black ink for black. It uses "paper
> Hecate> white" (i.e. the base colour) for white. Anything in
> Hecate> between, i.e. the shades of gray are simulated by MIXING
> Hecate> THE COLOURS.
>
>errrr....
>
>According to my reading of the Epson website, the Epson Styles Photo
>2200 (I assume this is the same printer?) is a 7 color ink jet
>printer, and the colors are:
>
>Photo black
>Cyan
>Magenta
>Yellow
>Light Cyan
>Light Magenta
>Light Black
>Matte Black
>
>Yes, thats 8 colors, my impression is you have to choose if you want
>to install Photo black or Matte black.

Correct.


>To this poster:
>
>I believe the "light black" ink color should mean true black and white
>photo printing is possible without resorting to colored inks.

Wrong.

--

Hecate - The Real One
Hecate@newsguy.com
Fashion: Buying things you don't need, with money
you don't have, to impress people you don't like...
!