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Peltier Cooling?

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June 1, 2006 12:50:12 AM

Hi everyone it's me and I have yet another question. Okay its about Peltier or Thermoelectric Cooling. For those who are using this kind of cooling or has a full knowledge of this, help me out.

Well, I have a water cooling system on my pc. Everything is water cooled from the cpu to the n/b to the 2 gpus. I getting 35c idle on my cpu on normal room temp but I want it to go lower. I heard and have read through some research that Peltier/Thermoelectric cooling can cool down to below zero or freezing point.

So I become interested with this kind of cooling method. I only want to cool the cpu to 20c and not to the point that theres condensation is involve. Also I want my current water cooling kit to be integrated to this cooling so that I don't have to purchase the whole kit which can cost up to $500. So basically what I need is the power supply and the cold plate, along with it the seal and accesories to go with.

So my main question is, is it possible to do so with my current water cooling? Is possible to adjust the temp also so that I don't go to much which can also generate lots of heat?

The reason Im doing this is mainly to experience it, anyone has to start and I want to do it as safe as possible that is why I want a low-grade, low- wattage peltier/ thermoelectric cooling that can cool the cpu to 20c.

I have been looking at the Swiftech Peltier/Thermoelectric cooling kit. I can buy just the power supply and the cold plate to go along with my current water cooling unit. I believe it would cost me about $200.

Does anyone have done this kind of cooling, by integrating it to thier water cooling unit?

CPU: Pentium D 840 3.2Ghz
CPU cooling: Aquastar with extra rad.
35c idle and 45c full load.

Thanx.

More about : peltier cooling

June 1, 2006 1:56:33 AM

Yes, and you can buy some waterblocks that are already set up for it. SOME lower power units come equipped to plug right in to your PSU, while the other more powerful ones require their own power supply that can run up to $100+. you can check out some of them at http://www.swiftnets.com/ . one thing to be conserned with is condensation (yes even if your target temp is 20c) but do the neoprene and dialectric grease right and it shouldnt be a problem. hope this helps!
June 1, 2006 2:09:07 AM

sorry, one more thing... usually a peltier is done on one peice of equipment, ie CPU or GPU (I had one on my GPU). the upside is near freezing temps on that part, BUT noticably warmer temps on the rest of the entire cooling loop. May need a bigger rad with your setup! Setting upa peltier as a cooler takes some creativity as yes it will cool the water down in the loop, but requires its OWN cooling! a normal CPU Heat Sink is probably not going to suffice because most peltiers of a descent size generate over 200W of heat (Swiftech's pride is rated at 226W) that need to be disapated. some people go with 2 cooling loops, one to cool the system with insulated hoses, and a 2nd to cool the peltier itself. If you have any other questions just ask!
Related resources
June 1, 2006 2:32:52 AM

Like people have said, if you want a high power TEC you're going to to need an additional loop in your water cooling setup. I would reccomend getting a less powerfull one maybe <100 w + some cheap power supply, then mounting a heatsink on it so you don't need to modify your water cooling setup.

That of course would only cool your water resevoir, like a mini fridge in your computer, it wouldn't be enough to mount directly on to the cpu.

You could probably purchase a thermostat that cuts of your TEC once the water reaches the desired temperature.

Just a note:
I have a 170 watt 15V peltier and a copper heatsink just doens't cut it even at 12 v. 8O

ehh 200 dollars?
Just get a TEC offa ebay there's lots of 5-20 dollar peltiers on there.
Unless you're planning on mounting it directly, then those would freeze your cpu. :lol: 
June 1, 2006 3:07:34 AM

I did some work using peltier cooling years ago on sailboats. Several sailing supply shops, like West Marine, used to carry kits, and they probably still do. The basic idea was to put a cooling block inside an ice chest with electrical lines leading to a radiator block on the outside. Thermostats were used to regulate the temperatures. Such a kit could no doubt be adapted to a computer, putting small cooling blocks on the CPU, graphics card, or most anything else that you wanted cold. Electric lines would exit the case and attach to an external radiator, with a thermostat to regulate the temperature, the same as done for refrigeration.

I'm not sure if it will work concurrent to your water cooling, but it might. Maybe the peltier unit could be placed on top of the water cooling block if there's room. Don't know, as I never thought about doing that on a computer. When set up correctly, by adjusting the thermostats you should be able to drop your temperatures to 20c or even below. The marine units were designed to work with 12 volts DC, so powering them should be easy. I don't know their present cost, but some looking around should find that out.
June 1, 2006 3:10:00 AM

Thanks for response guys.

Well, I don't want a powerful peltier cooling, since I haven't done this before I believe it is best for me to start at the beginers/ entry level. So I decided I could use an 80watt cooling block and a low watt power supply to go with it as well.

I don't want extreme low temps but only at 20c as the lower the temps needed the hotter the hot side is gonna be and the more demanding it is to be cooled down with a water cooling, right?. My water cooling setup by the way is decent. I have one just for the cpu itself and one for both my gpu. Also I have an extra radiator and with the cpu it give me 35c idle and 45 full load with the unit at low settings.

That said, judging from my water cooling unit I can't go for a high-performance, high-wattage peltier setup.

So an 80watt peltier setup would be enough to reach 20c, right? Considering this, is my water cooling good enough to cool the 80watt peltier set up?

Also I need some advice on how to install this set up and as well as any rule of thumb or hint that I can use to make sure I have a good setup.

Thanx

:D 
June 1, 2006 4:11:23 AM

Took a bit of time to look it up, and I don't know how much this will apply since my information is mainly for boat refrigeration units and not computers. Basically the Peltier system uses a di-electric block that pulls heat away from one place and transfers it to a radiating block in a separate place. All this takes up a lot of space, consumes a fair amount of power, and I'm not sure you can manage a decent setup for around $200. A problem that appeared was that if you try both Peltier and water cooling together, it might end up boiling the water. Peltier isl a good idea, but I'm just not sure that its feasable with your computer or your budget. But if you try it and it works, please tell us about it.

That said, I would recommend that you look to forums.extremeoverclocking.com/showthread.php?t=159570 for more information of what you're up against. One system listed there cost $575. and still didn't cover everything.
June 1, 2006 5:14:45 AM

Quote:
I would reccomend getting a less powerfull one maybe <100 w + some cheap power supply, then mounting a heatsink on it so you don't need to modify your water cooling setup.

That of course would only cool your water resevoir, like a mini fridge in your computer, it wouldn't be enough to mount directly on to the cpu.


I think this kind of setup is much better than mounting a TEC directly onto the CPU. By moving the cold surface away from the CPU, the condensation problems are greatly minimized. If you cooled your entire water loop to 20C you could still get some condensation but there are other fixes. For example, you don't really even have to have any airflow through your case since your major heat sources are all water-cooled. With no airflow through the case, condensation isn't so much of an issue.

There are numerous variations on this theme. You can use the TEC to cool the air that blows into your water radiator. Then you have to thermally isolate the hot side of the TEC and cool it with air or a separate water loop. Or you can isolate the loop running to your blocks and cool the reservoir, then use your radiator to cool the hot side of the TEC. The advantage of the first option is that it has more of a built-in fail safe. If the TEC dies, you still have the system that you're now running, so as long as your pump doesn't fail, your CPU is protected.

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Just get a TEC offa ebay there's lots of 5-20 dollar peltiers on there.


You could buy a few smaller units and dial in the loop temp you want. To cool your CPU + GPUs + NB to 20C under load, I'm guessing you'll need more than a single 100W TEC. And realize that a typical 100W TEC generates 500 to 1000W of heat itself. I've worked with these suckers in confined environments, like non-airconditioned airplanes and can tell you that it adds up fast.
June 1, 2006 6:02:03 AM

I see, so what would be the best set up for me considering the water cooling I have on my pc is not really suitable for a peltier setup.

Okay now I know that there are many ways to do this cooling.

1. Directly to the cpu.

2. Cooling the liquid.

3. Cooling the air.

Im interested at the one that involves cooling the liquid. Is is possible if I cool to liquid by placing the cooling block on the radiator? I would need a heatsink fan for the cooling block. But the main thing is it's would be outside the case and away from the board. That would cool the liquid really low and then cool the cpu. But I not sure if this can cause condensation also for the liquid will be cold.

But like I said before I would be only needing a low-power peltier cooling block and power supply to only achieve a 20-25c at idle. So I think with this setup I don't need to worry about condensation and greasing up the sockets and spray coating the whole board.

So what do you guys think? Is it possible? And what would be the best way to do this kind of method?

Thanx again.

:wink:
June 1, 2006 6:19:14 AM

Yes that's the kind of method I want to emplement on my water cooling. I want to cool down the liquid by placing the cooling block on the radiator or the reservoir and used a good heat sink/fan cooler to cool it down. :D 

I know my water cooling unit would not be powerful enough to cool the peltier block's hot side when using the direct cpu contact method. So I came to conclude that the best way to do this is to cool the liquid and deliver it to the cpu water block thus, cooling the cpu to a much lower temps.

:D 

Also I want to use a low-wattage peltier setup so that it would only cool the liquid to 20-25c and preventing harmful condensation.

So Im now looking around for the peltier block and power supply, but I have no luck yet for I only know Frozencpu.com and the Swiftech can only be bought with the kit and not by individual components.

So if you guys could give me a hand and help me locate an etailer that sells peltier/thermoelectric cooling that I can buy as individual components, that would be awesome.

:wink:
June 1, 2006 7:46:06 AM

Pretty much late getting my 2 cents in here, but based on my work I can give you the following advice.

1. Cooling your cpu to 20 degrees is a misnomer, because the heat generated by the hot side of the peltier - regardless of your cpu temperature - needs to be dissipated. And even if you measure the cpu temp, keep in mind the heat a peltier adds to your coolant temp (your water loop). It is very important to always run a peltier through a separate water loop, using a separate pump and reservior/radiator.

2. Just because your cpu temps are not reaching zero, doesn't mean you won't get condensation. ANYTHING that is below ambient temperature will exhibit condensation, and thus needs to be insulated properly. So if it is 25 degrees inside where you live, and you want your cpu at 20, you will need to insulate your gear or be faced with trouble later. You will also face this problem if you try to cool the liquid below ambient.

3. A good cpu cooling block and dual radiator setup will provide near-ambient coolant temperatures. Also, if possible, stick with 1/2 inch ID tubing instead of 1/4 inch. The added flow will get the heat off the block faster and help the radiator run better as well.

4. Use a room air-conditioner. Cool your place down to 20c. It will not only help the radiator work better, but your inside case temps will be lower too.

I have just finished building work on my latest build, and I can tell you, it is a monster! I'm using a phase change cooler for my cpu that is bottom-mounted in a modified case. Both GPU's are peltier cooled on a separate circuit which runs to a triple radiator. A second loop cools the NB/SB/VREG and RAM also connected to a triple radiator. Finally I have a third loop cooling my 12 hard drives connected to a third radiator. Using RPM controlled fans I can acheive coolant temperatures that are just 3 degrees above ambient - or 23c, even when it is 100F outside. And it runs near dead silent!

Lots of research and careful work will save you many headaches. I spent a LONG time figuring out where and how to place everything, but in the end, I got the performance results I had dreamed of because I knew how to do it properly.

Swiftech is a good company and they have some great gear, but you can also look at DangerDen and Koolance. I'm using components from all three on my rig and they work in sync together, as long as you know how to do it.
June 1, 2006 8:46:46 PM

Quote:
Pretty much late getting my 2 cents in here, but based on my work I can give you the following advice.

1. Cooling your cpu to 20 degrees is a misnomer, because the heat generated by the hot side of the peltier - regardless of your cpu temperature - needs to be dissipated.


That don't make no sense! (name that movie)

A CPU can be cooled to 20C. I don't see what is the misnomer you speak of. You may have to cool the liquid below 20 to get the CPU to 20, but it can be done.

Quote:
And even if you measure the cpu temp, keep in mind the heat a peltier adds to your coolant temp (your water loop). It is very important to always run a peltier through a separate water loop, using a separate pump and reservior/radiator.


Well, you can air-cool a Peltier. I've seen it done on refrigerators, detectors on instrumentation, etc. I would and in fact have recommended a separate water loop, though.

Quote:
2. Just because your cpu temps are not reaching zero, doesn't mean you won't get condensation. ANYTHING that is below ambient temperature will exhibit condensation, and thus needs to be insulated properly. So if it is 25 degrees inside where you live, and you want your cpu at 20, you will need to insulate your gear or be faced with trouble later. You will also face this problem if you try to cool the liquid below ambient.


Not exactly... It depends in part on your ambient humidity. It's pretty dry where I live and TEC-cooled devices don't condense much here but there are workarounds for computers, like NOT blowing air into the case. If you have a TEC cooling your water radiator, the coldest surface around will be at the TEC/radiator interface and that can actually scavenge most of the local humidity. In a really humid place, it's more of a problem, but home AC will remove a bunch.

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3. A good cpu cooling block and dual radiator setup will provide near-ambient coolant temperatures.


But Chuck wants 20C. Not many homes are kept at 20. Brr.

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4. Use a room air-conditioner. Cool your place down to 20c. It will not only help the radiator work better, but your inside case temps will be lower too.


This has been done. You can use an AC to cool and dry the air, then plumb it to your PC or if water-cooling, onto your radiator. This is a good option and is more efficient than a TEC. When it's cold outside, you can just use a window AC as a fan to blow in cold air from the outside. I've considered something like this and if I do, I'll make a metal baffle between the AC output and the PC or radiator. Basically, the air is warming as it exits tha AC and moves through the system. The colder surfaces will have most of the condensation. So a baffle before your water radiator will act as a water scrubber. Regardless of TEC or AC, you want to be able to manage the condensation, like with a tray, maybe drained to a bottle. And in humid locations, a cooled radiator on a water-cooled loop, the water lines, etc, may condense too. Just remember it runs downhill and try to make that work in your favor.

Quote:
I have just finished building work on my latest build, and I can tell you, it is a monster! I'm using a phase change cooler for my cpu that is bottom-mounted in a modified case. Both GPU's are peltier cooled on a separate circuit which runs to a triple radiator. A second loop cools the NB/SB/VREG and RAM also connected to a triple radiator. Finally I have a third loop cooling my 12 hard drives connected to a third radiator. Using RPM controlled fans I can acheive coolant temperatures that are just 3 degrees above ambient - or 23c, even when it is 100F outside. And it runs near dead silent!


I think you have a rare infection. Antiheatatosis can be cured!

That rig sounds sick! I bet IR satellites can see it from outer space.
June 2, 2006 2:09:09 AM

Thanks again guys for your inputs and comments. Well, the main reason Im doing this is to experience it and a starting point for me about Peltier/Thermoelectric cooling.

I will only be or want to cool down my cpu to 20-25c. My room is around 85f or 30c and with a fair humidity. I reside west of Chicago by the way with can be pretty humid in good days.

I still don't know about the factors of thermoelectric cooling like cpu wattage + peltier block wattage = heat (watts). I don't know how much heat an 80 watt peltier block can generate. I only want a low-power peltier cooling as my water cooling unit is not that good.

Right now at 30c ambient room temp my cpu is at 3.8Ghz @ 1.40v idling at 35c and full load of 45c.
June 2, 2006 2:30:35 AM

Quote:
I reside west of Chicago by the way with can be pretty humid in good days.


What's an international model doing living there?

Quote:
I still don't know about the factors of thermoelectric cooling like cpu wattage + peltier block wattage = heat (watts). I don't know how much heat an 80 watt peltier block can generate. I only want a low-power peltier cooling as my water cooling unit is not that good.


One number I've run into often in the literature is 10X. So if you get a TEC advertised as 100 watts for instance, it may put out as much as 1KW of heat. Some of the expensive TECs out there claim to be 60% efficient, so a 100 watt unit would generate about 200 watts of heat. The problem is, all of the supposedly efficient ones we tested turned out to be closer to the old 10X rule, easily 5X. That's really the downer of using a TEC - and it's enough of a heat load on the room that you might want to exhaust the heat outside in the summer. In the winter, it's a nice little glow.
June 2, 2006 3:03:00 AM

Do you guys think bar fridge would be more energy efficient than a peltier?

Bar fridges dont consume that much energy and they dont shunt off massive amouts of heat. They can keep your drinks and your comp cold at the same time.

They are cheap... because you are going to feed tubes into it just get a second hand one with adjustable temp control.
June 2, 2006 3:38:06 AM

Quote:
Do you guys think bar fridge would be more energy efficient than a peltier?

Bar fridges dont consume that much energy and they dont shunt off massive amouts of heat. They can keep your drinks and your comp cold at the same time.

They are cheap... because you are going to feed tubes into it just get a second hand one with adjustable temp control.


A bar fridge, next to a PC? I'd never have to get up from the PC, except when the fridge ran out of drinks. After a while I probably wouldn't care about CPU tempts either. I don' know if the fridge would be more efficient than a peltier, but companies have definitly had a longer time toi refine them. Heat is heat though, and if its collected from one source, it has to be disappated somewhere else. Can't avoid the physics.
June 2, 2006 3:44:44 AM

Quote:
Do you guys think bar fridge would be more energy efficient than a peltier?


Depends on if it's a TEC-based fridge or not... Fridges easily vary by a factor of two in efficiency, so be sure to look at the stats.

http://www.aceee.org/consumerguide/ref_compact.pdf

Quote:
Bar fridges dont consume that much energy and they dont shunt off massive amouts of heat. They can keep your drinks and your comp cold at the same time.They are cheap... because you are going to feed tubes into it just get a second hand one with adjustable temp control.


I've cooled instruments by making a coil out of copper tubing and putting it in a water-filled metal beaker in a fridge - then pump water or coolant through the tubing. If you melt or cut out the door gasket, you can pass the copper tubing through with very little heat leakage. It is an excellent option and you can minimize condensation by covering the Cu tubing outside the fridge with the tubular foam insulation available at hardware and home improvement stores. you could just put your reservior and radiator in a fridge - I've seen photos of gaming rigs set up this way. You can also buy constant temperature baths that have adjustable temps and excellent quality pumps. There is one that's been in 24/7 use in a lab I set up over 15 years ago. You just need to replace evaporated water or use a low volatility coolant. Not cheap though...
June 2, 2006 4:22:28 AM

Seems you think you know more than you actually do - let me explain myself a little more clearly so that you and others can comprehend the sense from the ridiculousness.

Quote:
That don't make no sense! (name that movie)

A CPU can be cooled to 20C. I don't see what is the misnomer you speak of. You may have to cool the liquid below 20 to get the CPU to 20, but it can be done.


I never said it cannot be done! A CPU can be cooled to 20c indeed, but you are cooling the liquid, in effect, and not the CPU. You must first get your coolant to the proper temperature before you can have it remove any heat from your block - the temperature of the liquid affects the temperature of the CPU, and vice-versa; that was the ambiguity I was trying to explain.

Quote:
Well, you can air-cool a Peltier.


Sure, and I use a 40-ton dumptruck to run my errands in the neighbourhood... crazy, but it works! Yes, you can cool an 80 watt peltier with a HSF, but that HSF better be damn good, and you're going to be putting 80 watts of surplus heat inside your case, meaning more case fans. There is no way in hell you are going to cool a 200 or 400 watt peltier with a HSF, and there is no way in hell that an 80 watt peltier will cool a 3.8GHz CPU. It is also economically senseless to spend money on a peltier and beefed-up power supply and NOT INVEST in a water cooling system for it.

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Not exactly... It depends in part on your ambient humidity.


That may be correct, but you might just as well also say that I do not need to back up my data because my hard drive is guaranteed to still boot perfectly tomorrow, next week, next month and next year. Humidity is not something that you control with a light switch. Do a proper job and install the proper insulation, it will prevent problems later!

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NOT blowing air into the case


When you are using water cooling to cool your major components you eliminate the airflow used to cool the area around the motherboard. Minimal airflow IS REQUIRED when you are watercooling the CPU, since the voltage regulators and surrounding components still dissipate heat which needs to be removed.

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But Chuck wants 20C. Not many homes are kept at 20. Brr.


That depends greatly on where you live. In my area 20c is a godsend, but if Chuck has an inside temp of 85F, it is 1.) either freakishly cold outside or 2.) he is a heat freak, because 85F is pretty warm if you ask anyone. 85F is quite high ambient temperature for water cooling purposes, hence my advice to cool down.

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You can use an AC to cool and dry the air, then plumb it to your PC or if water-cooling, onto your radiator.


My recommendation was to get an air-conditioner to cool the ROOM down where the PC is located. Home Depo sells small 5000 BTU window A/C's for under $100 that won't break the electricity bill and keep the average-sized room nicely cooled. Likewise, I never said 20c is mandatory, but anything between 20c and 25c will provide the best water cooling performance and will be within most personal comfort settings.

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I think you have a rare infection. Antiheatatosis can be cured!

That rig sounds sick! I bet IR satellites can see it from outer space.


LMFAO!!! I detect a hint of jealously there, perhaps because I have a sophisticated equipped machine, but more likely because I have the knowledge to put something together and actually know what I am doing.

Like I said, I am not going to argue here and degrade others opinion, but you really shouldn't bash other contributors constructive input. Doing wild experiments is one thing, building constant stable machines is another.
June 2, 2006 5:03:09 AM

Quote:
Seems you think you know more than you actually do, but in order to let you protect your dignity and have you go away quietly with your tail between your legs, I will explain myself a little more clearly so that you and others can comprehend the sense from the ridiculousness.


If this is the part where I'm supposed to quake with fear, it didn't work. Sorry, dude, I've been cooling computers, sensors and reaction chambers for almost 30 years, and making systems work when the heat loads are far higher than a gaming computer and with temp variation limits that are far tighter. The fact that you have realized that you need to try to explain yourself more clearly is an admisison that you communicate poorly. I'll agree with you there.

Quote:
Yes, you can cool an 80 watt peltier with a HSF, but that HSF better be damn good, and you're going to be putting 80 watts of surplus heat inside your case, meaning more case fans. There is no way in hell you are going to cool a 200 or 400 watt peltier with a HSF, and there is no way in hell that an 80 watt peltier will cool a 3.8GHz CPU. It is also economically senseless to spend money on a peltier and beefed-up power supply and NOT INVEST in a water cooling system for it.


Shows how little you know - an 80 watt TEC dumps FAR more than 80 watts. More like 400 to 800. And I never said that the air-cooleed TEC needed to be in the case. If you'd taken the time to read, I'm an advocate for NOT having direct-contact and/or in-case TECs. But having just endured working with a 160 watt air-cooled TEC belching its heat all over my chair for the last three months, I can say, yes, you can go pretty far up the TEC wattage chain and cool with air. No, there was no other option but to dump the heat into the work space - it was in an airplane and the flight engineers would not budge.

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Humidity is not something that you control with a light switch.


I never advocated using a light switch to control humidity, but there are simple solutions - dehumidifiers for example...

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When you are using water cooling to cool your major components you eliminate the airflow used to cool the area around the motherboard. Minimal airflow IS REQUIRED when you are watercooling the CPU, since the voltage regulators and surrounding components still dissipate heat which needs to be removed.


Right, minimal airflow. Passive airflow has even worked.

Quote:
My recommendation was to get an air-conditioner to cool the ROOM down where the PC is located. Home Depo sells small 5000 BTU window A/C's for under $100 that won't break the electricity bill and keep the average-sized room nicely cooled. Likewise, I never said 20c is mandatory, but anything between 20c and 25c will provide the best water cooling performance and will be within most personal comfort settings.


Many people find 20C to be too cool and having the room temp at 20 will not guarantee a CPU temp of 20. Chuck has mentioned that his water system is relatively low capacity so even if ambient is 20, he's probably looking at a CPU temp of 25 or more - but his goal is 20, remember? What are you gonna sock-spank recommend next? A 15C room temp?

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LMFAO!!! I detect a hint of jealously there


Filling your sock with goo, eh? No, I'm not at all jealous of your TEC-equipped rig. Not at all. I've got plenty of parts laying around and could easily deploy the beasts, but thus far have chosen to abstain on our gaming boxes.

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perhaps because I have a sophisticated equipped machine, but more likely because I have the knowledge to put something so sophisticated together and actually know what I am talking about.


Using a bulldozer to move a one cubic foot pile of crap is not sophisticated. It's just wanking and it's obvious. And it leaves you and your BS smelling like...crap! Simply stated, TECs are not sophisticated -
PERIOD!!! They are inneficient as hell and are the antithesis of style and finesse. I'd never use one unless there is no other option.

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Like I said, I am not going to argue with an idiot


Obviously, not if I'm involved. But if that was supposed to be a flame, then you are arguing with yourself.

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but if you think you are right, just keep bashing other contributors constructive input and feeding the forums with your nonsense.


And you just keep on wanking, dude. Too bad your ego was bruised by me not agreeing with your rose-colored opinions.
June 2, 2006 3:03:23 PM

You have an issue accepting other people's comments. I couldn't care less about, and sure as hell don't ask for, your agreement. And just because I have an alternative standpoint on something, that does not make me a wanker.

Thank you for your response, however. You have contributed greatly to the value of this discussion.
June 2, 2006 4:04:12 PM

So now that we have accumulated lots of information and comments, so is it possible for me to integrate Peltier cooling to my system? If so, then what would be that best method to implement this components? And also give me some suggestions and comments about my current set up, of how I can improve it and to make it more easier for me to do this as painless as possible. :D 

Thanks again guys for all your valuable inputs. :D 
June 2, 2006 6:18:44 PM

Quote:
You have an issue accepting other people's comments.


Actually, I love to hear the comments of others - when they have some degree of accuracy, that is. For example, your comment about having to remove 80 watts of heat from the hot side of an 80 watt TEC. This article:

http://www.dansdata.com/pelt.htm

talks about an 80 watt TEC that requires 216 watts of heat removal. That equates to an efficiency of ~37% if you disregard the heat generated by the TEC power supply (which is far from negligable). I've seen efficiency claims like this but have never realized such high values myself in the field, probably because the kind of environements I've used them in are less than optimal. Regardless, it's not a matter of me ACCEPTING your BS about 80watts removed/80 watts emitted - it's that I am absolutely certain that you are incorrect.

Or have you managed to reinvent the laws of physics in your little gaming den?

By the way, the article referenced above is a few years old and although some of the components used are a bit outdated, many of the points brought forth by the author are still valid. It's a good read and you may want to check it out, Chuck. Great real-world advice for OC'ers.

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I couldn't care less about, and sure as hell don't ask for, your agreement.


Funny thing is, dude, I got my TEC background by working with cooling experts in various high tech fields, not just gaming computers. So it's fine if you don't agree with me. You're also disagreeing with people that make their living by selling and using TECs. And you?

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And just because I have an alternative standpoint on something, that does not make me a wanker.


No, what makes you a wanker is when you presuppose my jealousy for your monstrously energy-inneficient beast.

Sock puppet.

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Thank you for your response, however. You have contributed greatly to the value of this discussion.


I wish I could say the same to you, but you wouldn't want me to lie, wouldja?
June 2, 2006 6:25:27 PM

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So now that we have accumulated lots of information and comments, so is it possible for me to integrate Peltier cooling to my system? If so, then what would be that best method to implement this components? And also give me some suggestions and comments about my current set up, of how I can improve it and to make it more easier for me to do this as painless as possible.


Check out the article I refereced in another post:

http://www.dansdata.com/pelt.htm

He talks about direct contact vs chiller setups. I've also mentioned using a cold-side HSF to cool the air going into your water radiator. I'd guess this is less efficient than putting the cold side HS in the reservoir as the author above describes, but since you just set a goal of 20C, the air-cooling setup might meet your needs and offer better fail-safes.
June 2, 2006 7:52:09 PM

So now that we have accumulated lots of information and comments, so is it possible for me to integrate Peltier cooling to my system? If so, then what would be that best method to implement this components? And also give me some suggestions and comments about my current set up, of how I can improve it and to make it more easier for me to do this as painless as possible. Very Happy

Wll Chuck, you've inspired me to do a bit of reading on htis subject, but after having done that, I don't think that a peltier system would be all that practical for what you want. It could be done, but the expense, amount of hardware, and space taken up by that hardware probably wouldn't be worth it. I know that's only an opinion, but its what I have for the moment. Further research may change it, but for now it stands.

As for improving your current setup, I think I'd invest in a larger radiator for your present water cooling system, or perhaps multiple radiators if larger isn't feasable. I think that would be the most painless and should get you closer to your goal for less money than a peltier.
June 2, 2006 10:03:36 PM

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I love to hear the comments of others


...and nitpick every fine detail! That's not to say that I'm not a specialist myself, but I just prefer to do it by leaving other people out of it.

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your comment about having to remove 80 watts of heat from the hot side of an 80 watt TEC


I don't explicitly recall mentioning it that way. I said that there will be AT LEAST 80 watts of additional heat to get rid of. I am fully aware that a peltiers rated output differs from the heat it will produce - the fact that I did not explicitly spell it all out to you does not mean that I am unaware of it nor should it make you think such, hence I DO need to clarify things for you.

And I am an avid reader of Dan's, just so you know!

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I got my TEC background by working with cooling experts in various high tech fields


Great! Congratulations! I commend you! Then how is it you make no mention of several of the key points that I have been highlighting? I am not knocking your experience, so don't fight me, but just because you do something one way, doesn't mean somebody else can't approach the problem and do it another way.

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my jealousy for your monstrously energy-inneficient beast.

Sock puppet.


No, of course you're not jealous. Actually, the word I was looking for at the time was "sarcastic". Yes, that fits better!

BTW: You are right, it is a beast, but I couldn't care at all about energy efficiency at this point - the main focus behind this current build was getting all-out maximum performance, followed by low temperature and low noise. There are going to be tradeoffs when you are balancing performance, noise and temperatures. If efficiency was my absolute priority, I'd be cheerfully typing away on a 800 MHz Crusoe laptop on batteries. And you?

I am satisfied with my silent and cool 5.26 GHz dual core.

I did like the joke about the IR satellites though, nobody has mentioned that one yet! I do have a 10KW solar array mounted on the roof though, which helps out with the power nicely.

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but you wouldn't want me to lie, wouldja?


Nah, of course not! Have I ever lied to you??? We're all buddies here!!! :D  :D  :D 
June 2, 2006 10:59:22 PM

In my first post, I gave tips on cooling and some general advice:

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Pretty much late getting my 2 cents in here, but based on my work I can give you the following advice.

1. Cooling your cpu to 20 degrees is a misnomer, because the heat generated by the hot side of the peltier - regardless of your cpu temperature - needs to be dissipated. And even if you measure the cpu temp, keep in mind the heat a peltier adds to your coolant temp (your water loop). It is very important to always run a peltier through a separate water loop, using a separate pump and reservior/radiator.

2. Just because your cpu temps are not reaching zero, doesn't mean you won't get condensation. ANYTHING that is below ambient temperature will exhibit condensation, and thus needs to be insulated properly. So if it is 25 degrees inside where you live, and you want your cpu at 20, you will need to insulate your gear or be faced with trouble later. You will also face this problem if you try to cool the liquid below ambient.

3. A good cpu cooling block and dual radiator setup will provide near-ambient coolant temperatures. Also, if possible, stick with 1/2 inch ID tubing instead of 1/4 inch. The added flow will get the heat off the block faster and help the radiator run better as well.

4. Use a room air-conditioner. Cool your place down to 20c. It will not only help the radiator work better, but your inside case temps will be lower too.

I have just finished building work on my latest build, and I can tell you, it is a monster! I'm using a phase change cooler for my cpu that is bottom-mounted in a modified case. Both GPU's are peltier cooled on a separate circuit which runs to a triple radiator. A second loop cools the NB/SB/VREG and RAM also connected to a triple radiator. Finally I have a third loop cooling my 12 hard drives connected to a third radiator. Using RPM controlled fans I can acheive coolant temperatures that are just 3 degrees above ambient - or 23c, even when it is 100F outside. And it runs near dead silent!

Lots of research and careful work will save you many headaches. I spent a LONG time figuring out where and how to place everything, but in the end, I got the performance results I had dreamed of because I knew how to do it properly.

Swiftech is a good company and they have some great gear, but you can also look at DangerDen and Koolance. I'm using components from all three on my rig and they work in sync together, as long as you know how to do it.


Would you care to explain what it is you're not happy with?
July 22, 2006 2:29:43 AM

Here's a question. Let's say you take your processor and smother it with dielectric grease, do the same for the socket. Put a copper plate between a TEC and the processor after smothering the top half and the plate with grease. Then mount a CPU water block on the hot side of the TEC. This CPU block is the only one in the loop. Then insulate everything from the board to the water block, and the back of the mobo aswell. Would this setup be enough to take the heat from the TEC and at the same time create enough coolage to cool the proc? Say you're using a 100w TEC or something in that range. I've just started looking at this Peltier concept tonight and have been thinking up ideas that make almost sense to me. Let me know! thanks.
July 22, 2006 8:00:57 AM

You DO NOT want to put dielectric grease between the cpu and whatever-it-is you put on top of your cpu. The thermal properties of dielectric grease are not the same as those of proper thermal grease like arctic silver 5.

Dielectric grease, as its name suggests, is designed to insulate "electrically", which is why you use it on your socket to insulate the pins from shorts due to condensation when you use sub-ambient temps in your cooling. Putting the stuff "on" your cpu will make it act like a heat blanket, the heat will not be able to escape the cpu, and you will have a dead system in minutes.

My suggestion: Use proper high-quality thermal grease on top of your cpu such as arctic silver 5.

You do not need any grease between the copperplate, tec and waterblock. These three components are commonly screwed together to make a sandwitch in direct contact. This is done because the extreme cold and hot sides of the peltier are beyond the temperature/performance specs of any thermal grease, so using grease would actually hinder the effectivness of the peltier. And, since the surface of the peltier is not lapped smooth anyway, you do not need to be concerned about using grease to obtain absolute surface contact.

Also, you mustn't forget to spray conformal coating on your mobo as well.

What you are looking for is a classic thermoelectric cooling system. But you will need something more than 100 watts if you are using a hot P4 or OC. If I were you I would take a look at www.swiftnets.com, they have pretty much the best devices out there, and can supply a complete peltier kit if that is what you need.
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