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AGEIA is doomed

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  • Graphics Cards
  • GPUs
  • Nvidia
  • Graphics
Last response: in Graphics & Displays
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June 1, 2006 5:20:28 AM

This is why AGEIA is doomed to failure. When major players like nVidia and ATI start integrated physics acceleration in their GPU's, AGEIA doesn't stand a chance.

As I've stated in the past. People are NOT going to spring for yet another "feature" card in their system. It makes the most sense to integrated PPU's in GPU's or on the video cards.

AGEIA: listen well. Sell your company to nVidia ASAP. It's your only hope of making any money.

More about : ageia doomed

June 1, 2006 6:13:00 AM

I think we all knew this was coming...
Ageia sinking to the bottom of the ageian sea :lol: 

I disagree with you on the video card ppu though,
I think the second processor should be used for physics.
Why only use a single thread when you payed for 2 processors damnit??!?
June 1, 2006 6:21:24 AM

I'm not convinced, for a few reasons.

A - Unless you are planning on putting together a SLI or CF system anyway, it will be cheaper and cooler to use a Physx card.

B - If GPUs are capable of pulling off real world physics just as well as Ageia's card, then why did it take Ageia releasing their cards to get Nvidia and ATI to do it. I mean SLI has been around for awhile now, and to be the first of the two vendors to release a physics engine would be huge.

Time will tell though, we will have to wait till next year most likely for all the bugs to be worked out in all three and have a larger selection of games to test them on.
June 1, 2006 6:24:19 AM

Quote:
I think we all knew this was coming...
Ageia sinking to the bottom of the ageian sea :lol: 

I disagree with you on the video card ppu though,
I think the second processor should be used for physics.
Why only use a single thread when you payed for 2 processors damnit??!?


Hopefully in the next year we will see more games that take advantage of the growing dual core market, then what?? It will almost have to be through the GPU or stand alone PPU card.
June 1, 2006 6:25:03 AM

That's exactly what I predicted and I have posted this on previous forums. Nvidia is gonna integrate the gpu and ppu in one card and would syncronize to give good visual with good physics as well. Unlike the Ageia this would be on a PCI-E so it would be faster and not causing lag like the PCI PPU card.

This is a great news for I hope this would be avialble maybe 1st quarter of next year when they would introduce a new card that fully supports DX10, SM4 and Vista. :D 

So long Ageia.
June 1, 2006 6:28:17 AM

Agiea probably knew that this will happen.

If they are smart as it seems they will stay alive, but if they do that for the money they will sell them selves as it was on their minds in the beggining.

Meyby they sell a crap half to nvidia and half to ati.
June 1, 2006 6:30:21 AM

True, Ageia could provide the chip to Nvidia and or ATI.
June 1, 2006 6:47:32 AM

Or imagine this:

They sell that crappy beta version chip, get bunch of money, make graphic chip(with physics "alpha chip") and become world best graphics company 8)

What a job 8)
June 1, 2006 8:04:50 AM

I have to disagree about the doom of the physics card in general because games like Oblivion make an SLI system of a necessity and I don't think that there will be enough leftover horsepower to beat the same system with a normal sli setup and some kind of physics co processor. I think that the phys X card is going to need more bus bandwidth to be effective though.

Oh and I have to admit that I got sucked into a little flamage on ya on the last thread so, I appologize for the last bit.
June 1, 2006 8:21:51 AM

You are correct, oh wise one! :-D
June 1, 2006 8:40:59 AM

Bah, conroe and K8L will do far more damage.
June 1, 2006 8:43:17 AM

ya i agree. one day we will be buying nvidia or ati cards with integrated PPU.
June 1, 2006 9:08:44 AM

One day you wiil buy a vga card with cpu ppu gpu hdd cpu optical everything dude, and the monitor all integrated in vga card.

You just plug the card in the wall and viola.
June 1, 2006 9:10:57 AM

Quote:
One day you wiil buy a vga card with cpu ppu gpu hdd cpu optical everything dude, and the monitor all integrated in vga card.

You just plug the card in the wall and viola.



lol :lol:  :lol: 
June 1, 2006 9:58:19 AM

Quote:
One day you wiil buy a vga card with cpu ppu gpu hdd cpu optical everything dude, and the monitor all integrated in vga card.

You just plug the card in the wall and viola.


$2500 80 lb. video card. :D  hehehe
June 1, 2006 9:59:12 AM

Quote:
One day you wiil buy a vga card with cpu ppu gpu hdd cpu optical everything dude, and the monitor all integrated in vga card.

You just plug the card in the wall and viola.


$2500 60 lb. video card. :D  hehehe


June 1, 2006 10:53:27 AM

This was coming for a long time. nVidia and ATI don't want a stupid company factor sales, so they're going to do what I expected. Integrate a PPU into the graphic card/chip, and R.I.P Ageia.
June 1, 2006 11:00:51 AM

There'll still be the same huge arguments over which card is better, ATI or Nvidia or any other players that step in.

"My card only weights 60lb"

"Yeah, but my card weights 90lb"

"My physics is quicker that your physics"

May as well start arguing about it now - no point waiting for the facts ;) 
June 1, 2006 11:06:42 AM

Quote:
so they're going to do what I expected. Integrate a PPU into the graphic card/chip, and R.I.P Ageia.


That's both good and bad. Don't need a seperate PPU, but it will give

ATI/NVIDIA another reason to crank up the prices of video cards. :evil: 
June 1, 2006 11:07:49 AM

Quote:
This was coming for a long time. nVidia and ATI don't want a stupid company factor sales, so they're going to do what I expected. Integrate a PPU into the graphic card/chip, and R.I.P Ageia.



I'm sure Ageia is looking for a buyer.... their only hope is to get bought out.
June 1, 2006 11:11:53 AM

Quote:
One day you wiil buy a vga card with cpu ppu gpu hdd cpu optical everything dude, and the monitor all integrated in vga card.

You just plug the card in the wall and viola.


$2500 80 lb. video card. :D  hehehe

You can almost buy this technology now it's called a PSP, PS2 or XBOX360..... But we don't buy them because we prefer PCs :D 

I really only have one thought on this subject 3DFX, does anyone remember them? I like many other bought a 3DFX card and the same arguements were talked about then. Truth is if you like the latest and greatest you'll soon own of of these cards. When they start intergrating them in standard graphics cards you'll own one of them too....
June 1, 2006 11:14:00 AM

Quote:
One day you wiil buy a vga card with cpu ppu gpu hdd cpu optical everything dude, and the monitor all integrated in vga card.

You just plug the card in the wall and viola.


$2500 80 lb. video card. :D  hehehe

You can almost buy this technology now it's called a PSP, PS2 or XBOX360..... But we don't buy them because we prefer PCs :D 

I really only have one thought on this subject 3DFX, does anyone remember them? I like many other bought a 3DFX card and the same arguements were talked about then. Truth is if you like the latest and greatest you'll soon own of of these cards. When they start intergrating them in standard graphics cards you'll own one of them too....



I'm gonna pass on the PPU. I'm not going to get one until it's integrated and I have no choice.
June 1, 2006 11:15:05 AM

Yeah and the water cooling.
June 1, 2006 11:16:56 AM

Quote:
Yeah and the water cooling.



lol :lol: 
June 1, 2006 11:22:01 AM

hihi :p 

I cant breath.
June 1, 2006 11:29:38 AM

Quote:
hihi :p 

I cant breath.



linux_0 hands vulefu




Can you breathe now?
June 1, 2006 11:48:08 AM

Almoust.

Thanks for the air tho :D 
June 1, 2006 12:04:11 PM

Glad I didn't throw away $300 on one. :lol: 
June 1, 2006 12:05:15 PM

Quote:
Almoust.

Thanks for the air tho :D 



:-D

That's 100% O2 ;-)

Air = 78.084% N2 + 20.946% O2 + 0.9340% Ar + other
June 1, 2006 12:42:03 PM

That is a jet set air.

Im oner to inject that kind of air in me.

Im fine now.

8O
June 1, 2006 12:46:16 PM

Quote:
That is a jet set air.

Im oner to inject that kind of air in me.

Im fine now.

8O



Good to hear you're ok :-D

Live long and prosper!
June 1, 2006 12:50:56 PM

Aegia's downfall is pricing their card 250-300 bucks...I wouldn't pay more than 50-100 bucks tops for something that enhances physics...

Physics board is no more special than Sound Board IMO, and those come integrated in motherboards. I'd prefer ATI's solution.
June 1, 2006 12:57:12 PM

Quote:
That is a jet set air.

Im oner to inject that kind of air in me.

Im fine now.

8O



Good to hear you're ok :-D

Live long and prosper!

U 2!
June 1, 2006 1:04:04 PM

I agree that the price point is set a little high at the moment. The biggest problem for Ageia are the NRE (non-recoverable engineering) costs associated with bringing a completely new product to market. We've seen time and time again that there are games out there that choke the life out of even SLI/CF setups when you turn everything up. Granted a GPU is great at handling parrallelism (sp) but do we really want to sacrifice framerate on games that are already starved for horsepower so that we have more immersion? Although using the second core of a dual-core CPU sounds like a great idea because it allows you to make use of something sitting idle, it really isn't up to the task of tracking all those objects. It's designed differently and doesn't incorporate the level of parrallelism that's required to handle that many objects. If a powerful CPU was good enough to do everything we needed to do, why are there ClearSpeed boards for systems? There is obviously a need for more FLOPS to handle the physics.

The bottom line, IMHO, is that this is a great concept and needs to be refined a little further before it's really ready for primetime. I try to avoid first revisions of a completely new product line because 9 time out of 10, there's plenty of bugs to be worked out and I'm tired of being somebody elses playtester.

If I win a few grand on a scratch-off, then maybe I'll buy one. After the new monitor, after a hardware RAID card, after a XENA LHe card, after a new HDTV, you get the drift....
June 1, 2006 1:12:24 PM

Quote:
Aegia's downfall is pricing their card 250-300 bucks...I wouldn't pay more than 50-100 bucks tops for something that enhances physics...

Physics board is no more special than Sound Board IMO, and those come integrated in motherboards. I'd prefer ATI's solution.



Tru64!
June 1, 2006 1:16:00 PM

Quote:
I agree that the price point is set a little high at the moment. The biggest problem for Ageia are the NRE (non-recoverable engineering) costs associated with bringing a completely new product to market. We've seen time and time again that there are games out there that choke the life out of even SLI/CF setups when you turn everything up. Granted a GPU is great at handling parrallelism (sp) but do we really want to sacrifice framerate on games that are already starved for horsepower so that we have more immersion? Although using the second core of a dual-core CPU sounds like a great idea because it allows you to make use of something sitting idle, it really isn't up to the task of tracking all those objects. It's designed differently and doesn't incorporate the level of parrallelism that's required to handle that many objects. If a powerful CPU was good enough to do everything we needed to do, why are there ClearSpeed boards for systems? There is obviously a need for more FLOPS to handle the physics.

The bottom line, IMHO, is that this is a great concept and needs to be refined a little further before it's really ready for primetime. I try to avoid first revisions of a completely new product line because 9 time out of 10, there's plenty of bugs to be worked out and I'm tired of being somebody elses playtester.

If I win a few grand on a scratch-off, then maybe I'll buy one. After the new monitor, after a hardware RAID card, after a XENA LHe card, after a new HDTV, you get the drift....


Pretty good summary... I think I'll add my opinion now.

The fact is Ageia is a pioneer, its not a big company. Its trying to fill in a growing niche in games, and its attempt at it has somewhat missed the target slightly. Why? Overpricing and trying to get increased physics immersion... over a standard PCI slot. If they had thought of using a PCi-e 1x slot (of which I have plenty of free), then the lag experienced when calculating dynamic physics effects would have been dramatically reduced. But then there's the job of the graphics card, rendering all these extra effects. Of course, doing so will add extra strain on the card, but such is the price for immersion.

I think ATI/Nvidia are only trying to make sure the graphics business in firmly within their grasp, so if they try to weed out Ageia, then there's not much you can do about it. However, Ageia has done something that ATI and Nvidia cannot ignore anymore. Ageia has brought in physics like nothing people have seen before, and now people want it, though naturally not at a premium. What we need now is for more companies to try to push out a product that can compete with ATI/Nvidia's offerings, and also for a DirectX-like standard to be developed for physics.
June 1, 2006 1:17:55 PM

Yep, It was way too expensive, and dropped frames, and it was released too soon. Thats three strikes in the gaming world. I wonder what people who bought it are saying to themselfs now? :wink:

It was that DAMN PCI SLOT! :D 
June 1, 2006 1:32:41 PM

I agree with most everything everyone has said... but does anyone know what exactly AGEIA was expecting? Come on... those benchmarks were TERRIBLE (to say the least) Did they really think we'd all rush out to buy a $250 card to drop our FPS? I definitely fall under the "Crap, not another card in my system" category... but I still expected to see some gains from this much-hyped card... a couple of extra pieces of debris?!? That's all you could provide?!? Bah. Good riddance AGEIA.
June 1, 2006 1:40:36 PM

I wouldn't consider the AGEIA PhysX unless it was in a PCIe 1x form.
June 1, 2006 2:11:46 PM

Everyone has too many of those in their computer anyway, with no use. I hear, however, that PCIe x1 has alot of lag, so maybe an x4 slot?
June 1, 2006 2:50:48 PM

PCIe 1x is faster than PCI.
June 1, 2006 3:13:03 PM

I agree with you. I hope Ageia stays around a bit longer. Because they
will be pushing the physics world. FPS is not everything! If it was, we would all be all running 800x600 resolution. We want it all, speed + eye candy! So I agree with all of you, the PCI is too slow.
I'm a big HL2 fan. If it supported ageia in a big way, it would be in my system. Hell, HL2 fans, upgraded their systems, just to enjoy it more.
June 1, 2006 3:36:01 PM

Quote:
One day you wiil buy a vga card with cpu ppu gpu hdd cpu optical everything dude, and the monitor all integrated in vga card.

You just plug the card in the wall and viola.
Didn't they call that the Apple Macintosh?

Mike.
June 1, 2006 3:40:15 PM

The preproduction cars had both PCI and PCIe X1 connections (it was flipped 180 degrees and the bracket was removable). I figured they should have just left the retail card this way if they are going to chard $300 for the card. I'd pay $150 for the PCI one, but $300 for it is crazy, don't know what they were thinking there. In the future it would also be interesting to see the SLI bridge changed to accomodate a third card. Honestly though, the have already licensed their software engine to PS3 and many other companies, that should be were the money comes in from. As consumers, they have to make us want this product, so far, no dice.
June 1, 2006 4:41:13 PM

Quote:
I agree with you. I hope Ageia stays around a bit longer. Because they
will be pushing the physics world. FPS is not everything! If it was, we would all be all running 800x600 resolution. We want it all, speed + eye candy! So I agree with all of you, the PCI is too slow.
I'm a big HL2 fan. If it supported ageia in a big way, it would be in my system. Hell, HL2 fans, upgraded their systems, just to enjoy it more.


Yeah, FPS isn't everything. There's a reason why I have a X1900XT and an AMD 4200+, and its not for pure FPS. Its for graphical immersion, at the cost of potential FPS. Sure, I want to make sure I get above 30 frames a sec, but I also want to enjoy some serious eye candy. Ageia probably came into the idea of hardware accelerated physics for providing just that, eye candy, which in itself ain't a bad thing. I just think their strategy for just opting to accelerate physics through a PCI slot and making it $300 for just that a bit iffy. If Ageia were to change their strategy a little, I reckon it would take a lot more from ATI and Nvidia to knock them out of the PPU business. I just hope ATI and Nvidia's solutions can provide the immersion Ageia is offering, because I want proper interactive physics, not just smoke and mirrors.
June 1, 2006 4:45:40 PM

Quote:
One day you wiil buy a vga card with cpu ppu gpu hdd cpu optical everything dude, and the monitor all integrated in vga card.

You just plug the card in the wall and viola.




Just Buy a Mac



haha
June 1, 2006 4:58:36 PM

I'd rather just use a second core on the CPU for that physics.
Most games don't even flood my 2.4ghz opteron (dual core but forcing one)
Ghost Recon Advanced Warfighter is a grade A example.
The physics engine could most likely run at full precision even with just one cpu.
Putting the Physics into the GPU seems pretty worthless to me too.
Meqon was built for low cpu intensive, but realistic, cpu based physics to start off with.

Had this Physics generation come say, 3-4 years ago, and the Ageia addon card at that time, it'd be an instant hit.

We're getting Quad core next year fcol, I can't even begin to fantizise about how completely useless all that cpu power will be for 99,9% of all the mainstream, but it's damn cool....
June 1, 2006 5:10:55 PM

What a lot of people seem to miss is that integrating thngs into other products inevitably drives the costs up. And that means higher retail prices.

I for one would rather have the extra card for less overall cost.

Having said that, there IS the option to offload the physics (and indeed other eye-candy effects) onto the second, under utilised core of a dual core/proc system. This would certainly be an advantage, but I feel not enough people have a dual core system yet to make it worthwhile programming.

The same could be said for an SLI/CrossFire setup. Not everyone has one, in fact I'd be inclined to say only around 20% of gamers have such a setup, maximum. Its in these situations that a PPU card would make the most sense.

100% agreed on the use of at least a PCIE 1x slot, PCI wasnt the brightest idea.

The biggest problem I see though, HAS to be the pricing. Even a 256Meg card should only be around 175, at the most. If this Ageia wants to make inroads into the market, prepare to sell cheap for the first run or so, THEN increase the cost when the cards are more worthwhile to purchase.

Finally, it IS interesting to see the big GFX companies racing to integrate physics into their GPUs now. why didnt they come up with this solution before? It does seem daft that, although physics and graphics are considered inseperable in some cases, that no-one thought to even try and implement this before. Before some smart-arse comes along and says anything about the costs, why wouldnt they release a top level card with it built in? If you have the clout, which both nVidia and ATI have, then getting support for your new technology is a piece of cake.

Kudos to Ageia, for moving the market technologies forward, but points deducted for the godawful business plan and implementation. Better luck in round 2 (If they ever make it that far)
June 1, 2006 5:24:43 PM

Perhaps in the gaming market going forward. But if Autocad and a few other 3D/CAD vendors would support it there are a lot of CAD users that would be willing to shell out $300 for ithe card and buy the software and skip the next $1000 plus graphics card upgrade. We generally feel like we get the shaft from Nvidia and ATI especially and wouldn't mind a 3rd party card that puts some heat on them to be reasonable. I have played with it on a Fire GL X2-256t and it boosts performance well beyond the Fire GL X3. That is without proper software support. If AutoCad would integrate support They could sell me a new version of AutoCad and I could skip the next two iterations of Workstation cards and save on having to go to a PCI-Emotherboard.
June 1, 2006 5:34:16 PM

Hmmm, so a CPU is inferior to a dedicated PPU? I wouldnt have guessed :D 

But seriously, with the speed of todays cores, utilising a spare CPU for even the partial processing of physics would be an advantage, and with the ability to directly pass the required data straight to the other core for final rendering, it should be possible to achieve some sort of improved realism, without a major performance loss.

Having said that, a PPU and a CPU working in tandem over the PCI-E would probably be the best thing. It would be the sheer amount of coding that holds that particular combo back, I think.

Another idea... somewhat vendor specific implementation (IE. nVidia for now), but maybe the concept would work if you could 'piggy-back' the PPU card right into the GFX card, kinda like the old MPEG accelerator cards used to do years ago? It could be possible via the SLI connector, then again it might not.

Still, it was 30 seconds worth of thought, so dont take it to heart too seriously guys :) 
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