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local company versus skype

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Anonymous
March 2, 2005 5:48:08 AM

Archived from groups: comp.dcom.voice-over-ip (More info?)

I'm looking at
<http://www.digitalvoice.ca&gt;,<http://www.peopleline.net/&gt; and
<http://www.skype.com/&gt; for making calls to regular phones in
vancouver, BC, canada. I'll gladly accept recomendations :) 

SKYPE: I like the credit idea for SkypeOut, but
<http://moneybookers.com/&gt; is down at the moment.

DIGITAL VOICE: $20/month, first month free, free "Digital Voice phone
adapter," according to a pamphlet. why the hardware, why not just
headset with mic?

PEOPLE LINE/HOME I-LINE: $10/month, nice price, like the flat rate and
not dealing with an intermediary.

I don't quite get where the call originates from as I'm connecting from
an 802.11b network adapter to a router to a (shaw) cable modem...what
number appears on the recipients caller-id?

Mainly I'm looking for advice, over-looked options, different
companies, etc. I need to be able to call "regular" local numbers. At
present I have no need for long-distance or international, so that's
not a factor. What sort of hardware makes sense, just something from
<http://skype.com/store/accessories/&gt;, or does this "Digital Voice
phone adapter" make sense, particularly since it's free?


thanks,

Thufir
Anonymous
March 2, 2005 2:10:43 PM

Archived from groups: comp.dcom.voice-over-ip (More info?)

for me, that's not a bug, that's a feature! ;) 

thanks
Anonymous
March 2, 2005 9:49:58 PM

Archived from groups: comp.dcom.voice-over-ip (More info?)

hawat.thufir@gmail.com wrote:
Snip
|| I don't quite get where the call originates from as I'm connecting
|| from an 802.11b network adapter to a router to a (shaw) cable
|| modem...what number appears on the recipients caller-id?
||
snip

With SkypeOut, "Unknown" appears on the CLID Unit
Related resources
Anonymous
March 2, 2005 10:48:53 PM

Archived from groups: comp.dcom.voice-over-ip (More info?)

dc wrote:
[..]
> I have digital voice, great quality. It uses the sipura phone
adater.
> (www.sipura.com) Your computer doesn't need to be on to have a dial
tone. I
> really like, much cheaper than the phone company.

ahhhhhhh, it's not so much of a benefit for me then, since i'm
connected with 802.11b wirelessly (USB network adapter to router to
cable modem).

currently the phone adapter's connected to the ethernet jack of the
computer, while the 802.11b network adapter (NIC) is connected to a USB
port. if the ethernet NIC is enabled, will that enable the phone
adapter?

the only light blinking on the phone adapter is the power light. the
ethernet light and the lights for both phone jacks are dead, so there's
no traffic on the ethernet NIC.

The phone adapter:
<http://www.linksys.com/products/product.asp?prid=651&sc...;, which
is free for thirty days :) 



thanks,

Thufir
March 3, 2005 12:10:36 AM

Archived from groups: comp.dcom.voice-over-ip (More info?)

> DIGITAL VOICE: $20/month, first month free, free "Digital Voice phone
> adapter," according to a pamphlet. why the hardware, why not just
> headset with mic?

I have digital voice, great quality. It uses the sipura phone adater.
(www.sipura.com) Your computer doesn't need to be on to have a dial tone. I
really like, much cheaper than the phone company.
Anonymous
March 3, 2005 6:00:21 AM

Archived from groups: comp.dcom.voice-over-ip (More info?)

dc wrote:
[..]
> it sounds like it should work the only thing to make sure is that
your using
> a cross-over cable from the phone adapter to the NIC in the PC, and
the NIC
> should probably also be enabled.
> hope it helps.
> dc

I don't follow what you mean by a "cross-over cable," there's an
ethernet cable running from the phone adapter to the ethernet NIC's
jack. The cable is RJ-11, I believe, it looks like a wider phone
connection.

(No luck so far with enabling the ethernet NIC, it seems to disable the
802.11b NIC for some reason. After some more googling I'll take that
to a different group if I can't get it working, since it's tangential
here.)

thanks,

Thufir
March 3, 2005 8:05:23 AM

Archived from groups: comp.dcom.voice-over-ip (More info?)

<hawat.thufir@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1109821733.883587.95030@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> dc wrote:
> [..]
> > I have digital voice, great quality. It uses the sipura phone
> adater.
> > (www.sipura.com) Your computer doesn't need to be on to have a dial
> tone. I
> > really like, much cheaper than the phone company.
>
> ahhhhhhh, it's not so much of a benefit for me then, since i'm
> connected with 802.11b wirelessly (USB network adapter to router to
> cable modem).
>
> currently the phone adapter's connected to the ethernet jack of the
> computer, while the 802.11b network adapter (NIC) is connected to a USB
> port. if the ethernet NIC is enabled, will that enable the phone
> adapter?
>
> the only light blinking on the phone adapter is the power light. the
> ethernet light and the lights for both phone jacks are dead, so there's
> no traffic on the ethernet NIC.
>
> The phone adapter:
> <http://www.linksys.com/products/product.asp?prid=651&sc...;, which
> is free for thirty days :) 
>
>
>
> thanks,
>
> Thufir

it sounds like it should work the only thing to make sure is that your using
a cross-over cable from the phone adapter to the NIC in the PC, and the NIC
should probably also be enabled.
hope it helps.
dc
Anonymous
March 3, 2005 10:41:17 AM

Archived from groups: comp.dcom.voice-over-ip (More info?)

hawat.thufir@gmail.com wrote:
> dc wrote:
> [..]
>
>>it sounds like it should work the only thing to make sure is that
>
> your using
>
>>a cross-over cable from the phone adapter to the NIC in the PC, and
>
> the NIC
>
>>should probably also be enabled.
>>hope it helps.
>>dc
>
>
> I don't follow what you mean by a "cross-over cable," there's an
> ethernet cable running from the phone adapter to the ethernet NIC's

Try a "crossover" connection: it allows two NIC to talk to each other.
OR look up the specs for your TA (telephone adapter) and see what is needed.

> jack. The cable is RJ-11, I believe, it looks like a wider phone
> connection.

Yes, That'll be a RJ-45 (looks quite similar, but wider).

> (No luck so far with enabling the ethernet NIC, it seems to disable the
> 802.11b NIC for some reason. After some more googling I'll take that
> to a different group if I can't get it working, since it's tangential
> here.)

First, try it without the wireless connection.
Anonymous
March 3, 2005 2:11:41 PM

Archived from groups: comp.dcom.voice-over-ip (More info?)

Heimo Hetl wrote:
[..]
> Have a look at the Zyxel WLAN IP-Phone <http://www.zyxel.com/product
> P2000W.php>. This will work with any SIP-compliant carrier (which is
more
> or less anybody except skype), give you a convenient cordless phone
in your
> 802.11b network, a local number to receive calls, good rates, and it
will
> work with your PC being switched off.

it'd probably have to connect to the router, to which I don't have
access to.

> Doesn't your WLAN router have a LAN port? You could attach an analog
phone
> adapter there.
[..]

I don't have physical access to the WLAN router, just 802.11b wireless.

thanks,

Thufir
Anonymous
March 3, 2005 2:28:37 PM

Archived from groups: comp.dcom.voice-over-ip (More info?)

Rick Merrill wrote:
[..]
>
> Try a "crossover" connection: it allows two NIC to talk to each
other.
> OR look up the specs for your TA (telephone adapter) and see what is
needed.
[..]

the telephone adapter:
<http://www.linksys.com/products/product.asp?prid=651&sc...;

I don't follow you at all on this "crossover" connection. the 802.11b
NIC is of the external USB type, it plugs into a USB port on the
computer. The ethernet NIC is internal with an RJ-45 (thanks for the
correction) jack. Googling produces this factoid:

" Ethernet crossover cables are most often used in home networks when
connecting two ethernet computers without a hub. An Ethernet crossover
cable has it's send and receive wires crossed. When using a hub or
switch, this is automatically done for you."

I don't see how to connect the two NIC's, although the're both
connected to the same computer. Since the 802.11b NIC plugs into USB,
neither a hub nor a switch would work..?


> First, try it without the wireless connection.

under "Network and Dial-up Connections":

NIC #1:
Local Area Connection LAN enabled SMC EZ Connect Wireless
USB Adapter (2662W)

NIC #2:
Local Area Connection2 LAN Network cable unplugged SiS900
PCI Fast Ethernet Adapter

So, I should remove the 802.11b NIC first? I'll give that a go.


thanks,

Thufir

(note: I have a virtually identical thread "enable second NIC for
VOIP" in microsoft.public.win2000.networking)
Anonymous
March 3, 2005 4:28:02 PM

Archived from groups: comp.dcom.voice-over-ip (More info?)

Miguel Cruz wrote:
> hawat.thufir@gmail.com <hawat.thufir@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Heimo Hetl wrote:
> >> Have a look at the Zyxel WLAN IP-Phone
<http://www.zyxel.com/product
> >> P2000W.php>. This will work with any SIP-compliant carrier (which
is more
> >> or less anybody except skype), give you a convenient cordless
phone in
> >> your 802.11b network, a local number to receive calls, good rates,
and it
> >> will work with your PC being switched off.
> >
> > it'd probably have to connect to the router, to which I don't have
> > access to.
>
> These phones don't require any physical connection; they use wifi
(that's
> sort of the point).
>
> However, I haven't heard from many people who were terribly thrilled
with
> their performance.
>
> miguel
> --
> Hit The Road! Photos from 35 countries on 5 continents:
http://travel.u.nu
> Latest photos: Malaysia, Israel, Palestine, Austria, Thailand


oh, i see. i wasn't reading very carefully, it's like a cordless phone,
but the base station is the 802.11b router, or something. that's not
up my alley, i'm trying to do without any fancy hardware. sounds
intrigueing, though.

Thufir
Anonymous
March 3, 2005 6:20:56 PM

Archived from groups: comp.dcom.voice-over-ip (More info?)

hawat.thufir@gmail.com <hawat.thufir@gmail.com> wrote:
> Heimo Hetl wrote:
>> Have a look at the Zyxel WLAN IP-Phone <http://www.zyxel.com/product
>> P2000W.php>. This will work with any SIP-compliant carrier (which is more
>> or less anybody except skype), give you a convenient cordless phone in
>> your 802.11b network, a local number to receive calls, good rates, and it
>> will work with your PC being switched off.
>
> it'd probably have to connect to the router, to which I don't have
> access to.

These phones don't require any physical connection; they use wifi (that's
sort of the point).

However, I haven't heard from many people who were terribly thrilled with
their performance.

miguel
--
Hit The Road! Photos from 35 countries on 5 continents: http://travel.u.nu
Latest photos: Malaysia, Israel, Palestine, Austria, Thailand
Anonymous
March 3, 2005 10:18:27 PM

Archived from groups: comp.dcom.voice-over-ip (More info?)

hawat.thufir@gmail.com wrote:

> ahhhhhhh, it's not so much of a benefit for me then, since i'm
> connected with 802.11b wirelessly (USB network adapter to router to
> cable modem).

Have a look at the Zyxel WLAN IP-Phone <http://www.zyxel.com/product
P2000W.php>. This will work with any SIP-compliant carrier (which is more
or less anybody except skype), give you a convenient cordless phone in your
802.11b network, a local number to receive calls, good rates, and it will
work with your PC being switched off.

Doesn't your WLAN router have a LAN port? You could attach an analog phone
adapter there.

cheers
Heimo


--
l'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux.
Anonymous
March 4, 2005 4:22:15 AM

Archived from groups: comp.dcom.voice-over-ip (More info?)

Heimo Hetl wrote:
> hawat.thufir@gmail.com wrote:
[..]
> If you want to use your PC (with headset) as a phone, have a look at
X-Lite
> from <http://www.xten.com&gt; It's a free softphone for Win/Mac/Linux
which I
> tried on Win2000 and MacOS X. Both worked fine. It does SIP, so you
can use
> it with any SIP provider that suits your taste. (I'm in Vienna,
Austria/EU,
> so I don't know the companies you mentioned, nor any alternative
providers
> in Canada...) Generally, I would recommend going with SIP rather than
a
> proprietary protocol like skype, because this leaves you with a
choice of
> both service providers and handsets.

I only have the phone adapter free for one month, so around April 1st
I'll switch to another company. thanks for the tip on xten and SIP,
i'll look into those :) 

> In case you do want some external IP phone or analog phone adapter
box, you
> will have to set up your Win2000 PC as a router between the WLAN NIC
and
> the Ethernet NIC. I am sure someone in the Windows-related newsgroups
will
> be able to help you with that.

ahhh, thank you for stating the problem. Yes, I'll google on making
the PC act as a router between the NIC's; I don't think I stated the
problem very well.

> As for cabling, you may or may not need a crossover cable, depending
on your
> Ethernet NIC. If your NIC is autosensing you won't need it, but it
won't
> hurt. So, if you get one anyway, you're on the safe side.
[..]

I don't see where the crossover cable comes into play here: where does
it plug in? the 802.11b NIC doesn't have an RJ-45 port and the phone
adapter only has one RJ-45 port, which connects to the ethernet NIC,
presumabely.

thanks for clearing some stuff up :) 


-Thufir
March 4, 2005 9:21:31 AM

Archived from groups: comp.dcom.voice-over-ip (More info?)

<hawat.thufir@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1109847621.448181.320340@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> dc wrote:
> [..]
> > it sounds like it should work the only thing to make sure is that
> your using
> > a cross-over cable from the phone adapter to the NIC in the PC, and
> the NIC
> > should probably also be enabled.
> > hope it helps.
> > dc
>
> I don't follow what you mean by a "cross-over cable," there's an
> ethernet cable running from the phone adapter to the ethernet NIC's
> jack. The cable is RJ-11, I believe, it looks like a wider phone
> connection.
>
> (No luck so far with enabling the ethernet NIC, it seems to disable the
> 802.11b NIC for some reason. After some more googling I'll take that
> to a different group if I can't get it working, since it's tangential
> here.)
>
> thanks,
>
> Thufir


See: http://www.duxcw.com/digest/Howto/network/cable/cable5....
this is how you can make cross over cables. when you connect to a hub, it
does the crossing over for you. but when you are going fron nic to nic you
need a cross over cable for it to work. I am sure that this will get you up
and running.
Anonymous
March 4, 2005 12:55:42 PM

Archived from groups: comp.dcom.voice-over-ip (More info?)

hawat.thufir@gmail.com wrote:

> oh, i see. i wasn't reading very carefully, it's like a cordless phone,
> but the base station is the 802.11b router, or something.

that's it, exactly.

> that's not
> up my alley, i'm trying to do without any fancy hardware. sounds
> intrigueing, though.

well, as for real-world performance, i've yet to try one myself. Currently I
use a Grandstream ATA486 which is hooked up to a RJ45 port on my LAN hub
(behind my cable modem and firewall/router) in connection with a cheapo
Motorola DECT cordless, and it works perfectly, just like a plain old
telephone should.

If you want to use your PC (with headset) as a phone, have a look at X-Lite
from <http://www.xten.com&gt; It's a free softphone for Win/Mac/Linux which I
tried on Win2000 and MacOS X. Both worked fine. It does SIP, so you can use
it with any SIP provider that suits your taste. (I'm in Vienna, Austria/EU,
so I don't know the companies you mentioned, nor any alternative providers
in Canada...) Generally, I would recommend going with SIP rather than a
proprietary protocol like skype, because this leaves you with a choice of
both service providers and handsets.

In case you do want some external IP phone or analog phone adapter box, you
will have to set up your Win2000 PC as a router between the WLAN NIC and
the Ethernet NIC. I am sure someone in the Windows-related newsgroups will
be able to help you with that.

As for cabling, you may or may not need a crossover cable, depending on your
Ethernet NIC. If your NIC is autosensing you won't need it, but it won't
hurt. So, if you get one anyway, you're on the safe side.

cheers
Heimo


--
l'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux.
Anonymous
March 5, 2005 12:04:01 AM

Archived from groups: comp.dcom.voice-over-ip (More info?)

so instead of using a regular cable to connect the phone adapter and
ethernet NIC, it's a crossover cable?

ok...I'll check this out.

Thufir
Anonymous
March 5, 2005 12:34:20 AM

Archived from groups: comp.dcom.voice-over-ip (More info?)

Christopher from Linksys support says I need to enable the PC as a
router, but that they don't support that.


Thufir
Anonymous
March 5, 2005 2:31:22 AM

Archived from groups: comp.dcom.voice-over-ip (More info?)

dc wrote:
> <hawat.thufir@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1110000860.444550.105910@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > Christopher from Linksys support says I need to enable the PC as a
> > router, but that they don't support that.
> >
> >
> > Thufir
>
> When he says enable as a router, I believe he means set it up for
internet
> connection sharing. Which you should have gone through when
installing the
> second NIC, in your pc.
[..]

What's meant by installing the second NIC? the 802.11b USB NIC utility
and driver were installed from a CD. Are you referring to the internal
ethernet NIC? The ethernet NIC was physically installed prior to the
802.11b NIC.

Thanks,

Thufir
March 5, 2005 5:34:50 AM

Archived from groups: comp.dcom.voice-over-ip (More info?)

> I don't see where the crossover cable comes into play here: where does
> it plug in? the 802.11b NIC doesn't have an RJ-45 port and the phone
> adapter only has one RJ-45 port, which connects to the ethernet NIC,
> presumabely.

the crossover cable would be the cable that goes from the phone adapter into
the ethernet NIC. It would be the same as going from the phone adapter to a
hub then to the ethernet NIC. Think of the crossover cable as a single port
hub. (1 in, 1 out)
March 5, 2005 8:53:14 AM

Archived from groups: comp.dcom.voice-over-ip (More info?)

<hawat.thufir@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1109999041.099152.208920@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> so instead of using a regular cable to connect the phone adapter and
> ethernet NIC, it's a crossover cable?
>
> ok...I'll check this out.
>
> Thufir

that is correct.
March 5, 2005 8:58:11 AM

Archived from groups: comp.dcom.voice-over-ip (More info?)

<hawat.thufir@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1110000860.444550.105910@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Christopher from Linksys support says I need to enable the PC as a
> router, but that they don't support that.
>
>
> Thufir

When he says enable as a router, I believe he means set it up for internet
connection sharing. Which you should have gone through when installing the
second NIC, in your pc.

With this, I believe, that the phone adapter must be configured for NAT
(Network Address Translation)
See: http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/N/NAT.html
March 5, 2005 10:55:13 AM

Archived from groups: comp.dcom.voice-over-ip (More info?)

<hawat.thufir@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1110007882.006412.170530@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> dc wrote:
> > <hawat.thufir@gmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:1110000860.444550.105910@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > > Christopher from Linksys support says I need to enable the PC as a
> > > router, but that they don't support that.
> > >
> > >
> > > Thufir
> >
> > When he says enable as a router, I believe he means set it up for
> internet
> > connection sharing. Which you should have gone through when
> installing the
> > second NIC, in your pc.
> [..]
>
> What's meant by installing the second NIC? the 802.11b USB NIC utility
> and driver were installed from a CD. Are you referring to the internal
> ethernet NIC? The ethernet NIC was physically installed prior to the
> 802.11b NIC.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Thufir


from what I understand in your previous post, the wire less connection goes
into your PC, to provide the internet, then you have the second non-wireless
NIC. The non wireless nic is where the crossover cable would plug in, and
where the internet connection sharing would be setup. Basically I think its
set up by giving it an internal address (192.168.1.1, or something along
those lines) in the Network properties of the NIC.
Anonymous
March 5, 2005 3:33:57 PM

Archived from groups: comp.dcom.voice-over-ip (More info?)

dc wrote:
[..]
> from what I understand in your previous post, the wire less
connection goes
> into your PC, to provide the internet, then you have the second
non-wireless
> NIC. The non wireless nic is where the crossover cable would plug
in, and
> where the internet connection sharing would be setup. Basically I
think its
> set up by giving it an internal address (192.168.1.1, or something
along
> those lines) in the Network properties of the NIC.

yes.



thanks,

Thufir
Anonymous
March 6, 2005 11:39:30 PM

Archived from groups: comp.dcom.voice-over-ip (More info?)

hey, I bought the crossover cable ($14.99 CAD at radioshack), plugged
everything in, enabled ICS and...nothing. Took a nap, woke up,
everything works :) 

thanks for the help, guys!

Thufir
March 7, 2005 10:12:54 AM

Archived from groups: comp.dcom.voice-over-ip (More info?)

<hawat.thufir@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1110170369.975107.239960@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> hey, I bought the crossover cable ($14.99 CAD at radioshack), plugged
> everything in, enabled ICS and...nothing. Took a nap, woke up,
> everything works :) 
>
> thanks for the help, guys!
>
> Thufir
>

I am glad it worked. I will need to get one too then for when I hook it up
to my PC :D 
Anonymous
March 10, 2005 4:26:36 PM

Archived from groups: comp.dcom.voice-over-ip (More info?)

dc wrote:
[..]
> > hey, I bought the crossover cable ($14.99 CAD at radioshack),
plugged
> > everything in, enabled ICS and...nothing. Took a nap, woke up,
> > everything works :) 
[..]
> I am glad it worked. I will need to get one too then for when I hook
it up
> to my PC :D 

had I known that it, the crossover cable, was required I would've
really pushed for them to substitute the regular cable for a crossover
cable...you might make an argument that the regular cable isn't
sufficient.

-Thufir
March 11, 2005 8:27:59 AM

Archived from groups: comp.dcom.voice-over-ip (More info?)

<hawat.thufir@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1110489996.121304.155020@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> dc wrote:
> [..]
> > > hey, I bought the crossover cable ($14.99 CAD at radioshack),
> plugged
> > > everything in, enabled ICS and...nothing. Took a nap, woke up,
> > > everything works :) 
> [..]
> > I am glad it worked. I will need to get one too then for when I hook
> it up
> > to my PC :D 
>
> had I known that it, the crossover cable, was required I would've
> really pushed for them to substitute the regular cable for a crossover
> cable...you might make an argument that the regular cable isn't
> sufficient.
>
> -Thufir
>

From digital voice, I didn't get a network cable. Network cables aren't
normally included with things.
Anonymous
March 11, 2005 8:28:00 AM

Archived from groups: comp.dcom.voice-over-ip (More info?)

dc <removedeliriou5@shaw.ca> wrote:
> From digital voice, I didn't get a network cable. Network cables aren't
> normally included with things.

With "things"? I guess they are not normally included with toasters, string
cheese, or sans-a-belt slacks, no. But a good share of the networking
hardware I've bought over the years (wireless router, PMCIA ethernet
adapter, Vonage ATA, etc.) has included them.

miguel
--
Hit The Road! Photos from 35 countries on 5 continents: http://travel.u.nu
Latest photos: Malaysia, Israel, Palestine, Austria, Thailand
Anonymous
March 11, 2005 12:43:21 PM

Archived from groups: comp.dcom.voice-over-ip (More info?)

"dc" <removedeliriou5@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:z%9Yd.639714$6l.277966@pd7tw2no...

[snip]

> From digital voice, I didn't get a network cable. Network cables aren't
> normally included with things.

I got one with my Sipura SPA-2000 and with the Grandstream ATA-486 and
with the Netgear DM602 modem/router and.....

Yes they are..!

Ivor

PS I have a reel of bulk cable and usually crimp my own, but they *are*
supplied. Usually anyway.
March 11, 2005 6:41:24 PM

Archived from groups: comp.dcom.voice-over-ip (More info?)

"Miguel Cruz" <mnc@admin.u.nu> wrote in message
news:zdedncNaL-Mu-qzfRVn-pQ@speakeasy.net...
> dc <removedeliriou5@shaw.ca> wrote:
> > From digital voice, I didn't get a network cable. Network cables aren't
> > normally included with things.
>
> With "things"? I guess they are not normally included with toasters,
string
> cheese, or sans-a-belt slacks, no. But a good share of the networking
> hardware I've bought over the years (wireless router, PMCIA ethernet
> adapter, Vonage ATA, etc.) has included them.
>
> miguel

U are right. I am sorry. I did get one with mine. I just forgot I had
given it to a friend becuase I have so many. They do not come with copiers
that can be connected, is what I should have said.
dc
!