I've realized that I need to get descent headphones if I truly want to enjoy my music and the X-Fi's abilities. I'll likely get more enjoyment out of a good pair of headphones than a midrange set of speakers...but I'm a seriously budget limited Musicphile (I can't afford to be an Audiophile $$).

I'm considering the Sennheiser HD650's ($337 NewEgg) or the Grado SR325's ($295 NeedleDoctor) mated to a HeadRoom Total BitHead ($200).

I'm trying to get reference quality sound (that I can actually hear) out of the X-Fi.

My question is whether or not the HD650 or SR325's + the Total BitHead is worth it for the X-Fi...and listening to MP3's (encoded @ 192 and 320kps) and AAC's from the iTunes store and Apple Lossless encoded AAC's)?

If this isn't the right forum can anyone point me in the right direction?

This all started as I realized these Bose TriPort headphones are not all I expected them to be.

I think if you buy anything other than Bose, your utility goes up a mile.

As for the Sennheisers, the HD580s, 600s, and 650s all use the same drivers, just tested to higher tolerances. The 595s are probably their highgest utility headphones right now, the right blend of price and performance, not to mention newer drivers.

The approach I take on buying headphones is don't buy unless you've listened to them first hand under the conditions you will plan to use them. Or in other words go somewhere that lets you take a listen. It would hurt if you spent $300 online and you didn't like them. Or if you found a pair much less expensive that makes you just as happy. This seems to be what happened with your bose headphones. (Bose hasn't made quality audio equipment since the late 70's IMHO anyways.)

At first glance I think the headphones you are looking at are overkill. For one thing the reproduction of sound can only be as good as the source. In this case your source (for the most part) is compressed audio (aac and mp3's). This is when the law of diminishing returns kicks in. Headphones that good may even instead of making your music sound better, reaveal artifacts and shortcomings in the files.

I would go to an electronics store that specializes in audio and start listening to different headphones. Find one that to you personally is "music to your ears."

Thanks. I'm planning to head on over to Tweeter tomorrow after work and see if they have either the Sennheisers or Grado's to listen to. I don't mind if the headphones reveal how bad a highly compressed source file is, actually, since I can re-rip most of my prized music at lossless quality. I wanted a good set that I would be able to always (or for a long time) use as a reference as I upgrade my various components... As Astral noted, it seems the Senn HD595's are more popular, but I'm wondering if they'll sound as good on really accurate recordings...

I will take a listen before I plunge any funds, I just wanted to know if these 'phones would let me hear any quality (or lack thereof) of the X-Fi pretty accurately, and therefore, act a a good reference. The costs is really not that restrictive when you consider the cost of a good pre-amp, amp, speakers. It seems like a descent entry point into the realm of accurate music.

The real way to take advantage of your X-Fi is to get a pair of bookshelves and an amp. Even the best headphones don't measure anywhere as accurate as a good set of bookshelf speakers. Pure physics. Full range drivers cant compete with specialized (and larger) drivers, smaller dispersion area, lower physical excursion limits.

But I agree, between headphones and PC speakers, headphones do have a head start. Add in bookshelf speakers in that mix, though, then it depends on living circumstances and personal preferences.

Don't get sick, but I like the way the Bose Companion 3s sound as PC speakers. I know they've got Bose's equalization in them and that's prolly enough to make any purist turn over in their grave...and even levitate. ...but given the compromise of cost, size, and sound, and convenience...I like them alright. If I were to go with more accurate bookshelves, I'd need to get another sub-woofer and amp. Can I do all of that inside of $550? ...maybe, if I sacrifice the idea of descent headphones too, but I just need pleasant loudspeakers for my PC...I'm satisfied (for today anyways) with the twisted BC3's especially if it leaves me room to get a nice set of headphones w/in budget. In the Fall I'll focus on a descent non-PC-marketed 5.1 set and a new receiver that I'll send a digital signal to from the X-Fi and give the Bose speakers to the Dell. The Dell's been complaining that it feels left out and it has been neglected as of late.

...but I realize that I do want a good more-accurate headphone reference that can be used too that gives me 1) privacy (I'm in an apartment) 2) flexibility (to move from source to source) ...When I want to listen to Led Zeppelin's Kashmir or Prince's She's Always in My Hair late into the night...a descent set of 'phones coming off of a descent DAC (read: X-Fi) will become a prized possession. I'm really looking forward to being able to hear all the nuances or lack thereof of compressed MP3's and AAC's.

While the discontinued 580 and 600 do share the same drivers, AFAIK the 650 uses different ones.

These headphones are really different. Those Senns have a softer, deeper sound more suited to classical. Grados on the other hand have a brighter, more agressive sound, more suited to various types of rock or metal.
Don't limit yourself to just two brands. You can find AKG K-240S's (the 55 Ohm version S - "Studio" has more bass and is easier to drive out of portables; the 600 Ohm Monitors are harder to drive, but more precise) in many Guitar Centers and lots of other places, they can be as low or even lower than $100, yet sound very nice. I have a pair on it's way to me now - I also own K-340s.

A good forum for headphones I know of is www.head-fi.org

You don't need to break the bank for decent headphone amplifiers if you are not afraid of DIY. The updated PINT and others found here are very good and relatively simple: http://www.tangentsoft.net/audio/
There are some more interesting projects scattered around headwize, too.

That's about it.

Oh, some more:
- if you don't want to bother people around you, then cloesd phones are what you should get. However, they usually sound a bit worse. Some good pairs: Senn HD25 (NOT 25-1!), Beyer DT250, or the very bass-heavy, but fun DT-770, AKG K-271.
- you will notice some difference between 192 or 256 and 1141 ("CD quality, 16bit/44100Hz), but from 320 upwards, the difference is barely noticeable.

Frank, thank you so much. I was considering the AKG K-701's, too. DIY headphone amp, net notion...but...I like that the Total BitHead is cheap and offers an outboard DAC and can be used via USB, should I chose to.

This evening I'm going to hit a couple of shops and see what I can audition. It'd be nice not to have to spend $600 for excellent headphones+amp but given that its such a rare purchase I won't whine. I'm listening to classic rock, Prince (what category is he) and dance music, its not likely that I'll be listening to Bach. Even the low-priced Bose TriPorts have started to reveal things in 192Kbps encoded MP3's that I'd not heard with my crappy Sony V600s and they're not even burned in yet. If the Bose can do that I can't wait to hear what a higher-end front-row type set could do. I'm also eager to listen to the same music coming from an SB Live! vs. the SB X-Fi to see if I can hear audible differences and what exactly those differences may be.

For the type of music I like I'm wondering which I'll prefer (Grado's, Senn's, or AKG's), the HD650's looked to be as close to flat as I've seen...I wanna hear them.

May have to re-rip my music but I can do that in a few weeks.

Glad to be of help.

The K-701s are nice. But so are the 601s. There's also the Beyerdynamic DT880, which is also a very nice pair - natural and quite flat, even range.
For rock and funk (Prince can be considered funk/rock/pop/dance, imo), though, a bit more forward and agressive presentation might be better. The Grado is a good choice for this, so is the K240S. If you say "rock cans", than these are the two most frequent responses you get. However, Grados, as I've heard (unofrtunately hey are not available here ), can be a bit too "high on treeble", and be fatiguing to your ear.

Go 'round and audition a few cans, then fish out the ones you liked most on ebay; or from the fs section of headphone enthusiast forums - they keep them in better condition, have the nice ones and have the habit of trying lots of them, selling of the old ones. You can get good deals, plus they already have burn-in
But remember, what you hear in the shop might not be what you hear through your system. Different source, amp, etc.
One more thing about Senns you mentioned and source: they have a "tube synergy". Many say the 580 and 600 sound better with tube amps. They compliment each other: the Senns add depth, the tubes add some brightness. Just some more things to consider.

One more thing: if you find something you really like, be happy with it. (Come to think of it, these all will be better than your current ones). No need to go overboard with a $200 Cardas upgrade cable, $1000 Bel Canto DAC, or $5000 Meridian CDP. You can have great sound out of a couple hundreds; beyond that, it's quickly diminishing returns, and upgraditis is a bad malady - especially bad for your wallet

Awesome info. Thx. This week I'll have to hunt around for a place that I can listen to these.

Sennheiser HD280 Response Curve



Sennheiser HD497 Reponse Curve



Sennheiser HD580 Reponse Curve



Sennheiser HD595 Reponse Curve



Sennheiser HD600 Reponse Curve



Sennheiser HD650 Reponse Curve



I can't comment for in-ear response curves. But balanced loudspeakers (I realize, generally they don't exist in retail form) in this price range (IMO) can do better for accuracy. The critical midrange response (generally 800-8KHz) is a bit shaky past 3KHz. Channel seperation seems like a problem with both models except with the newer 595s. The 580s have the most uneven response amonst the similar headphones.

All the Senns exhibit upper bass humps; or "illusionary bass" that NorthAtlantic/European loudspeakers are often designed with. This makes bass response uneven and harder to integrate with a subwoofer, but gives the sense of more bass at the cost of some distortion.

God bless you both. Astral, did you get these from HeadRoom's website? That frequency response list you've posted is PERFECT for comparison. The research I did today confirms what you'd said earlier...that the HD595's might be the sweetspot of what I'm looking for. I'd love to hear any of these before I buy but I might not have the opportunity, I might have to "pay" to audition them. I'm in Maryland (USA) and I've got to locate a shop that actually caries these cans. I stopped by Tweeter today and the kid didn't know what a "can" was let alone a Grado or AKG K-701...so I hope I don't have to drive 50 miles to audition descent headgear.

Have either you or Frank listened to any Grado's? I keep reading that their a bit uncomfortable but that they might sound really good for the kind of application and music I prefer. ...but the Senn HD595's seemed to be judged well by everyone while the AKG K-701's compete for current show-stopper, world's best. This week I'll do some homework and see where I can listen to these, ...it's a lot of $$ to spend without an audition, just based on reviews, but its worth the trouble.

I just would like to get a really, really good set of cans as a reference so I can move on to proper loud-speakers. ..

I don't remember where I got those, but Headroom does sound about right.

Man, when I first got my HD595s, these totally blew away my Logitech Z-680s. It was kind of a exhilerating epiphany. I had the same experience again when I got my Ascend 170SE bookshelfs, but that's what happens when you switch to a system that's 65-22KHz +/- 1db 8O. Every night I hate having to switch to my Sennheisers, the bookshelves are just clearer in every way. I feel my headphones are now muffled. I'll switch over midsong and suddenly everything sounds like its distortion loaded and bandwidth-challenged. Everything is relative I guess =D

I've heard the Grados before (SR80s), and I would say it's kind of like a Klipsch sound. It's a little more in your face than the Sennheisers, which are warm and laid back. Nothing beats the comfort of the Senns tho, with the velvet and over-the-ear design, rather than headphones that press onto your ears. I get fatigued wearing headphones pretty fast (about half an hour with the Senns). I can barely wear regular headphones for 10 mins, and it sucks if you wear glasses at home, because it adds pressure on the bend around the frame, and my ears are red on the ridges, and red on the outter end too if I were to wear regular headphones. =[ (yar I'm pretty fussy about this stuff).

I think I'm going to order the HD595's today. HeadRoom quoted me $200, which seemed pretty good...if they don't add $15 for shipping. This is a little bit of a risk since I've not actually heard them for myself but its not that much money so I'm not going to whine...they've got to sound superior than these Bose Triport...which are going back as soon as I get the 595's burned in...I'll have a chance to do some comparison. ALL the reviews, especially by people seemingly, in-the-know, are really good for the '595s with most saying they're more up-front than the '600/'650's. ...they've got to blow the Bose's away. ...right? :?

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I'm wondering if the headphone output on the X-Fi Platinum will act as a kind of headphone amp (the bay is powered with floppy drive power connectort) or whether I should actually spring for the HeadRoom BitHead. I've read that some people run their '595's w/out an amp and they sound great and I've read that they sound better with an amp. I'm trying not to be wasteful, but if I need to spend an additional $200 on a BitHead to get the best sound (I'm assuming this means bass) out of them then ...I'll...do...it.

I beg to differ.
Loudspeakers that come close to the accuracy and detail level of headphones cost many times more. In the $100-300 range, where these cans are, I don't believe you can find loudspeakers and amplifier good enough even compared to the most uneven and least flat-response of these.
I don't know what you're smoking.

Loudspeakers in this range have much more uneven frequency response.
Channel separation is similar; and it is a secondary problem altogether.
And then, there are the other factors: you need optimal placement and optimal room conditions for them to sound best. Which is not so in most of the cases.

Anyway: this all comes down to personal preference. A totally flat response is good for monitoring purposes in the studio, but for listening to music, it might not be as good as a lively and involving pair, which by definition is uneven. Frequency charts can give you a few ideas and show some details, but beyond that they are useless.

Interesting...so, at this price range you think headphones are a better idea than loudspeakers+amp for accuracy. I guess I was kinda leaning that way when i that some of the best were around $1,000 and I know that a set of Martin-Logan Statement's used to cost up near $100K ...so I just used my little twisted logic to assume I'd get more sound qual. for less $$ with headphones. ...but as I mentioned before, right now headphones seem like a better choice until I've got a better environment (and more $$) for descent loudspeakers.

Frank, I'm not really smoking anything, and there are plenty of loudspeakers in the $200-300 price range hooked up with inexpensive refurbed receivers or Class-D amps, price included, which I have listed over and over again throughout this forum, any easy search on loudspeakers and you will find my favorites, all of which measure very linearly on a wide bandwidth with low distortion. (some examples: SBS, Energy, Ascend, AV123 X-series, Hsu bookshelfs, etc). So, I beg to differ the other way. Everyone has their own opinion, but being polite on online forums does go long way towards civil discourse.

As for placement issues, stereo is supposed to be heard from a front soundstage. When you have cans, the same channels are played from the sides. Now there are crossfeed filters that add calculated delay as well as reverbs to help create the illusion of stereo, so headphone output isn't optimal either.

I'm not sure what you are arguing for, first you say loudspeakers aren't as accurate as cans, and cost much more for the same accuracy, so cans must be better? Then you say that uneven response is "lively" for music, and loudspeakers are more uneven, so loudspeakers are better now?. Then you say measured response is meaningless. What's going on? That's a lot of different thoughts in one paragraph!

Perhaps you mean purchase by taste?--good on my book, if you think a "livelier" speaker with particular peaks and dips to *your preference* makes *your favorite music* rock more, all the better to *you*. However, that doesn't invalidate speaker measurements, or the goal of accurate sound reproduction, especially for those who are interested with what the CD *should* sound like.

While a neutral loudspeaker might not have the flavor you want, it can easily be EQed to a particular taste, and I think that versatility is a gain for the buyer. Maybe a particular curve overcompensates for certain frequencies, and makes certain music fatiguing? Then you can adjust it to what isn't as fatiguing, or you can hear it as waveform accurate, if you just reset the EQ, where you "are" back at neutral, rather than being handcuffed to a "neutral setting" that might be fatiguing in certain situations.
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Halcyon -- Dunno if they'll blow the Bose Triports out of the water, I've heard them before--didn't sound so hot at the Bose store in the mall--but I had no comparative reference then. A lot of Bose products do lean toward A-weighted frequency response curves, rather than a flatter, "more accurate" response curve.

Whether it blows them away should depend on your musical tastes. Some people (older folks) often prefer this type of sound, tending to turn on the "dynamic compression/night mode" on their receiver for movies. Though I suspect, from a distortion standpoint, you have some ways to gain, if the Triports use the normal untreated paper drivers like the rest of the Bose HT line =P.

The headphone out should produce enough current to power the 595 to pretty loud levels. It's a lower impedence load than the 580/600/650s, though the distortion might be audible earlier than with a dedicated amp (then again, the *very audible* distortion shouldn't kick in even on the X-Fi until pretty close to ear-splitting levels).

Experiment and see for yourself I say. You still have a return policy either way, right?

Thanks again for the excellent information. I was quickly wondering if it would be just a good to get an X-Fi Platinum and use the break-out box's headphone out as would to get a HeadRoom Total BitHead. The X-Fi would give me some other features like digital output for use with my receiver, etc. ...but I think I'll try to stay focused and go for the Total BitHead...especially since it's got a DAC, crossfeed filters, and I'll prolly feel *safer*.

Astral, you mentioned earlier that your '595s tend to sound *muddy* compared to your loudspeakers?? Um, I don't want muddy, I want clear, crisp, powerful, personal sound. Is there a likely chance that with this expectation I may be dissappointed with the HD595's? I've read that the Grado SR325's have that in-your-face your-on-stage-with-Metallica type sound ...and that might become fatiquing after a while...but I don't want ...*muddy* either.