President for a day, or a week

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Hi All,

It's far too easy to be wise after the event.

So here's a pro-active challenge - what should be done to address the
aftermath of Katrina, including all aviation matters?

Regards,
John Ward

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

On Fri, 2 Sep 2005 16:20:31 +1000, "John Ward"
<johnrmward@optusnet.com.au> wrote:

>Hi All,
>
> It's far too easy to be wise after the event.
>
> So here's a pro-active challenge - what should be done to address the
>aftermath of Katrina, including all aviation matters?
>
>Regards,
>John Ward

I'll let others address the "emergency" need (S&R, taking care of
people who've been displaced, etc.)

The first thing that needs to be done is to fix the levees to
control the inflow of water into New Orleans. I understand that
they've got one breach almost sealed.

Once that happens, they can start pumping water.

The next thing is infrastructure--roads, rail, water/sewer, and
electricity. The transportation links in and throughout the area need
to be a priority, because without them, it's very difficult to get all
the people and "stuff" you need in to do what needs to be done. It
appears that MSY can handle flights (not passenger flights, but relief
flights), and that there wasn't a lot of damage at the airport.
However, you can't fly in enough stuff to rebuild a large part of a
city. You _can_ keep a city supplied (ie the Berlin Airlift) but it
doesn't do any good to get a weeks worth of supplies for 100,000
people into the airport if you can't get it out to the people who need
it.

I don't know the legalities involved, but I would certainly look at
the possibility of having a plan for a Dunkirk-like evacuation by air
(no plane leaves the area without a full compliment of passengers, any
plane not grounded for maintenence issues and not already leaving is
commandeered for the evacuation, etc.) A more realistic option might
be to use any available AMC (formerly MATS) planes. Get people out of
the immediate area as quickly as possible, and then transport them (by
bus or by rail) to more settled locations.

I would also look at the feasibility of coming up with a way to
drain some of the water out of Lake Ponchetrain into the Gulf (the
eastern part of the lake is not far from the Gulf of Mexico). You
wouldn't be able to drain it dry, but every cubic foot of water you
get out of the lake would be one less cubic foot to deal with.

I'd also want to know what it would take to rebuild the levees to
withstand a Cat V storm.

take care,
Scott

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Scott Stevenson" <almostfm.AMSPAY@UCKSAY.comcast.net> wrote in message
news:43192ec5.667586875@news.giganews.com...
> On Fri, 2 Sep 2005 16:20:31 +1000, "John Ward"
> <johnrmward@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
>
>
> I'd also want to know what it would take to rebuild the levees to
> withstand a Cat V storm.
>

Indeed! Presumably from a political standpoint, cost wouldn't enter into the
argument now.
If it is possible it should be done unless you want a repeat episode.
Even us Brits managed to build the Thames Barrier many years ago at
significant cost and while it has been raised a few times it has never had
to deal with the scenario for which it was built. The consequences of a
flooded London made it a 'no brainer'.

Chris

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Ibby (The Artist Formerly Known as Chris) wrote:
> Sorry should have read 'Kyoto Treaty'

That's okay....George W. can't pronounce it. <g>

"Ladies 'n Gents, dellow fellagates 'n such....I think it's time to
sign
that coyote treatment...can I get a hrmpff, a yeehaaaaaa and a Hoo-Ah?"


Marcel

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

The Road Runner is Vice President!!

Ibby

"Marcel Kuijper" <zoepetier@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1125672502.593208.47910@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
>
> Ibby (The Artist Formerly Known as Chris) wrote:
>> Sorry should have read 'Kyoto Treaty'
>
> That's okay....George W. can't pronounce it. <g>
>
> "Ladies 'n Gents, dellow fellagates 'n such....I think it's time to
> sign
> that coyote treatment...can I get a hrmpff, a yeehaaaaaa and a Hoo-Ah?"
>
>
> Marcel
>

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Wait a minute... why should the rest of us pay for levee improvements,
via
our Federal Income Tax, in a city we don't live in?
And for one built below sea level? If people and businesses wanted to
live
and do business there then should it not fall upon them to protect
themselves?
Funny that New Orleans could find the money to build a Superdome,
convention
center and a host of other magnificent facilities - yet were not able to
tax
themselves for proper levee maintenance! The finger pointing needs to
start
with the locally elected officials, not our Federal Government. Bush
bashing is way off topic in this forum and a cheap shot to boot.



"William" <alone@home.com> wrote in message
news:1WXRe.11876$xw1.11557@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
>
> "Chris Curtis" <chris@nospam.net> wrote in message
> news:C8qdnZ2dnZ3x2oLFnZ2dnR7Yhd6dnZ2dRVnyqp2dnZ0@pipex.net...
>> "Scott Stevenson" <almostfm.AMSPAY@UCKSAY.comcast.net> wrote in message
>> news:43192ec5.667586875@news.giganews.com...
>>> On Fri, 2 Sep 2005 16:20:31 +1000, "John Ward"
>>> <johnrmward@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> I'd also want to know what it would take to rebuild the levees to
>>> withstand a Cat V storm.
>>>
>>
>> Indeed! Presumably from a political standpoint, cost wouldn't enter
into
>> the argument now.
>> If it is possible it should be done unless you want a repeat episode.
>> Even us Brits managed to build the Thames Barrier many years ago at
>> significant cost and while it has been raised a few times it has never
>> had to deal with the scenario for which it was built. The consequences
of
>> a flooded London made it a 'no brainer'.
>>
>> Chris
>
> Chris I agree its a no brainer, but when you have a "no brainer" running
> things then we have a problem...sorry for some politics :-)
> read
>
http://www.editorandpublisher.com/ [...] ?vnu_conte
nt_id=1001051313
>
> California better take a look at their situation because there will be
no
> warning like a hurricane
> Bill
>


--
I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users.
It has removed 1034 spam emails to date.
Paying users do not have this message in their emails.
Try www.SPAMfighter.com for free now!

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Dallas" <Cybnorm@spam_me_not.Hotmail.Com> wrote in message
news:eu1Se.5282$Wd7.1711@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> The administration clearly does not understand the importance of moving
> security forces quickly into urban disasters. Baghdad after the fall of
> Sadam and New Orleans day five look pretty much the same to me.

I think in the long run the greatest lesson learnt might simply be humility.
It's easy for us sitting here in our (usually) comfortable western
lifestyles to look at the rest of the world's trouble-spots and consider
ourselves superior and hauty when we see looting, killing and general
disorder on the streets of Mogadishu, Baghdad, or wherever. New Orleans is
a lesson for all that the veil of society is incredibly thin, and every
country is only so far away from anarchic behaviour.

Si

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

>"John Ward" <johnrmward@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
>news:4317ef2b$0$30086$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
>>>> It's far too easy to be wise after the event.
>>
>> So here's a pro-active challenge - what should be done to address the
>> aftermath of Katrina, including all aviation matters?

I've already taken some flack for my opinion (from friends), but what
REALLY ticked me off was what I saw on TV today. A camera was rolling
past one of the centers and hundreds of people were sitting outside
it, doing absolutley nothing (I wish I could underline that). Sitting
in piles of trash, which appeared to be at least partially of their
own making. I realize they are suffering, but it seems that if
nothing else, they could have at least started cleaning up the area
they were in, just for something to do to keep busy and their minds
off their problems till help came. The area around those centers must
have parking lots, the least they could have done is started putting
their trash into a big pile in the street or one of the parking lots -
which would speed up cleanup efforts when the time comes. What I saw
was a bunch of people waiting for someone else to help them, instead
of trying at least a little bit to help themselves. It's their city,
but none of the ones on the film clip seemed to give a hoot, they
appeared to want someone else to clean up the mess for them.

So maybe I'm a heartless jerk, but I'd be a lot more sympathetic to
their situation if I saw them trying to do something instead of just
sitting.

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Hi again,

On Fri, 2 Sep 2005 22:26:59 +0100, "Simon Robbins"
<simon@NOSPAMsjrobbins.demon.co.uk> wrote:>
>Have you ever gone four days with food and little water, in 90 degree heat?

I spent 356 days in Viet Nam in 1969/70, if that tells you anything
(and I wasn't on a scenery tour).
But I didn't expect most people to agree with my view, so that's ok.
My point is this - in that situation, I'd rather be doing something
then just sitting around, feeling sorry for myself.

I guess this is what happens when a Flightsim forum gets off topic.
Bye bye.

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Hi Jim,

Reports here, in Australia, this morning, are indicating that armed
looters are still on the streets, there has been some rioting, the relief
problems are not yet properly addressed or effective, and that the total
bill may even go as high as $100 billion.

Pretty flabbergasting stuff, but there's no way to know how accurate any
of the reporting is, of course.

Regards,
John Ward
"Jim" <BozAir@REMOVETHISchartermi.net> wrote in message
news:vdfhh154jdpk9ot3up5p7pse7mfi9r01tm@4ax.com...
> >"John Ward" <johnrmward@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
>>news:4317ef2b$0$30086$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
>>>>> It's far too easy to be wise after the event.
>>>
>>> So here's a pro-active challenge - what should be done to address the
>>> aftermath of Katrina, including all aviation matters?
>
> I've already taken some flack for my opinion (from friends), but what
> REALLY ticked me off was what I saw on TV today. A camera was rolling
> past one of the centers and hundreds of people were sitting outside
> it, doing absolutley nothing (I wish I could underline that). Sitting
> in piles of trash, which appeared to be at least partially of their
> own making. I realize they are suffering, but it seems that if
> nothing else, they could have at least started cleaning up the area
> they were in, just for something to do to keep busy and their minds
> off their problems till help came. The area around those centers must
> have parking lots, the least they could have done is started putting
> their trash into a big pile in the street or one of the parking lots -
> which would speed up cleanup efforts when the time comes. What I saw
> was a bunch of people waiting for someone else to help them, instead
> of trying at least a little bit to help themselves. It's their city,
> but none of the ones on the film clip seemed to give a hoot, they
> appeared to want someone else to clean up the mess for them.
>
> So maybe I'm a heartless jerk, but I'd be a lot more sympathetic to
> their situation if I saw them trying to do something instead of just
> sitting.

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

First things first. Having survived Ivan, the first thing you want is for
someone to fly a C-130 over and kick a pallet of bottled water and a pallet
of food (actually, the MRE's were quite good) out of the back. Ice is nice
too. If they get time, a return trip with a pallet of generators and
window-unit air conditioners would REALLY be special, but that's asking too
much.

I'm tired of hearing about the problem of delivery when we've had the
capability to make low level parachute drops from the beginning... And
there's still enough open and unused interstate to drop it off... Hell,
Canal Street (counting the bus lanes) is over ten lanes wide... If you want
to be really careful, drop some leaflets first "Where dropping a bunch of
food and water, if it hits you it's gonna hurt. Get everyone to move to the
side." If I'd been Bush after the tsunami, I'd have fired whoever came up
with the "it takes time to get the logistics in place" excuse and told the
next guy in line that I wanted a C-130 full of water and another full of
food and some guy in the back throwing it out the door in six hours or he
was going to be the guy in back in 12 hours....

BTW - anyone know how much runway they got open at Moisant (now "Louis
Armstrong Int'l" ) I got a friend with a plane.... Maybe with help I could
find the rest of the old Charity Hospital Ambulance crew from the early
80's... "I'm putting the band back together... we're on a mission from God".

"John Ward" <johnrmward@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:4317ef2b$0$30086$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
> Hi All,
>
> It's far too easy to be wise after the event.
>
> So here's a pro-active challenge - what should be done to address the
> aftermath of Katrina, including all aviation matters?
>
> Regards,
> John Ward
>

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Tom Orle"
> You're already paying for a $270million bridge going to an uninhabited
> island in Alaska.

Oh no... you're wrong. That island is not uninhabited, Gravina Island has a
population of around 50.

It will connect to the megalopolis of Ketchikan (pop. 8,000). The bridge
will be nearly as long as the Golden Gate and higher than the Brooklyn
Bridge. They really need it because they get really tired paddling their
canoes across in the summer.

Dallas

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"William" <alone@home.com> wrote in message
news:1WXRe.11876$xw1.11557@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
>
> "Chris Curtis" <chris@nospam.net> wrote in message
> news:C8qdnZ2dnZ3x2oLFnZ2dnR7Yhd6dnZ2dRVnyqp2dnZ0@pipex.net...
>> "Scott Stevenson" <almostfm.AMSPAY@UCKSAY.comcast.net> wrote in message
>> news:43192ec5.667586875@news.giganews.com...
>>> On Fri, 2 Sep 2005 16:20:31 +1000, "John Ward"
>>> <johnrmward@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> I'd also want to know what it would take to rebuild the levees to
>>> withstand a Cat V storm.
>>>
>>
>> Indeed! Presumably from a political standpoint, cost wouldn't enter into
>> the argument now.
>> If it is possible it should be done unless you want a repeat episode.
>> Even us Brits managed to build the Thames Barrier many years ago at
>> significant cost and while it has been raised a few times it has never
>> had to deal with the scenario for which it was built. The consequences of
>> a flooded London made it a 'no brainer'.
>>
>> Chris
>
> Chris I agree its a no brainer, but when you have a "no brainer" running
> things then we have a problem...sorry for some politics :-)
> read
> http://www.editorandpublisher.com/ [...] 1001051313
>
> California better take a look at their situation because there will be no
> warning like a hurricane
> Bill

Good site. Thanks Bill

Chris

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Dallas" <Cybnorm@spam_me_not.Hotmail.Com> wrote:

>
>"Tom Orle"
>> You're already paying for a $270million bridge going to an uninhabited
>> island in Alaska.
>
>Oh no... you're wrong. That island is not uninhabited, Gravina Island has a
>population of around 50.
>
>It will connect to the megalopolis of Ketchikan (pop. 8,000). The bridge
>will be nearly as long as the Golden Gate and higher than the Brooklyn
>Bridge. They really need it because they get really tired paddling their
>canoes across in the summer.
>
>Dallas
>

Wow - are the 4 lanes of the proposed bridge enough to handle all that
traffic? :-)

Seriously though - I just quoted a news report where they did say it
was uninhabited. And you know how reliable these reports are;-(

I hadn't even heard of that pork project passed in the bill.

-=tom=-

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

and I think you're right!

"David Wilson-Okamura" <David Wilson-Okamura@forums.simradar.com> wrote in
message news:1125771578.1996@forums.simradar.com...
>
> ___| reply |__________________________________________________________
> If I'd been Bush after the tsunami, I'd have fired whoever came up
> with the "it takes time to get the logistics in place" excuse and told
> the
> next guy in line that I wanted a C-130 full of water and another full
> of
> food and some guy in the back throwing it out the door in six hours or
> he
> was going to be the guy in back in 12 hours....
>
> _____________________________________________________________________
>
> My first prediction, based on what happened to the former CIA director
> George Tenet: a year from now, "whoever came up with the 'it takes time
> to get the logistics in place' excuse" will get the presidential Medal
> of Freedom, for his service to the people of Louisiana and Mississippi.
>
>
> My second prediction, based on the big give-away that rolled through
> both houses of Congress this summer: in six weeks, someone is going to
> sponsor a second major energy bill, which will offer additional tax
> incentives to oil companies that upgrade or expand their existing
> refineries. We, the taxpayers, will make this sacrifice "for the sake
> of national security."
>
> _________________________________________________________
> Posted via the -Web to Usenet- forums at http://forums.simradar.com
> Visit www.simradar.com and try our Flight Simulation Search Engine!

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

In article <df9ct1$ck$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com>,
chris@mwapartnershipNOSPAM.co.uk says...
> Maybe time for Bush to finally sign the Kyoyo Treaty and reduce emissions
> leading to global warming!!

Wrong.

> The hurricans etc are getting worse by the month
> around the Gulf of Mexico.

And wrong. Try looking at the history of hurricanes beyond just the
past decade or two.

> Its a pity we haven't invented a giant
> 'waterpistol' or 'squirtgun' aircraft that can jettison the rising tides
> into outerspace or is that being too sci-fi orientated.
>
> Ibby
>
> "John Ward" <johnrmward@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
> news:4317ef2b$0$30086$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
> > Hi All,
> >
> > It's far too easy to be wise after the event.
> >
> > So here's a pro-active challenge - what should be done to address the
> > aftermath of Katrina, including all aviation matters?
> >
> > Regards,
> > John Ward
> >
>
>
>

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

___| reply |__________________________________________________________

> Maybe time for Bush to finally sign the Kyoyo Treaty and reduce
emissions
> leading to global warming!!

Wrong.

> The hurricans etc are getting worse by the month
> around the Gulf of Mexico.

And wrong. Try looking at the history of hurricanes beyond just the
past decade or two.

_____________________________________________________________________
I don't think anyone here believes that the president can create
hurricanes. But something is changing, and a brand-new study of
long-term trends confirms it. If you've been reading the newspaper or
listening to the radio lately, you may know that Kerry Emanuel, a
professor of atmospheric science at MIT, has just published an article
in the journal Nature, which shows that the duration and force of
hurricanes have increased 50% over the last three decades. Google
"Kerry Emanuel" for details; or read the "executive summary" at
National Geographic:
http://news.nationalgeographic.com [...] urricanewa
rming.html

_________________________________________________________
Posted via the -Web to Usenet- forums at http://forums.simradar.com
Visit www.simradar.com and try our Flight Simulation Search Engine!

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

On Mon, 5 Sep 2005 23:09:13 +1200, "donbutts"
<remove.donneybutts@hotmail.com> wrote:

>JW from Australia started all this spin.. then grabbed a can of ale and back
>under the shade of the gum tree. Came back once and fed the fire and back
>under the gum tree again.
>OK, my observation from the TV reports showed the utter chaos and despair of
>the people of New Orleans and then a switch to a President in a very neat
>grey suit and tie saying ah know yer'all suffrin but we're comin' to help.
>A repeat of a similar scene the next day. Nice man nice suit.
>I know he would probably be useless on location but to see the President in
>rough gear (water tight waders or whatever ) climbing into a military
>aircraft on day one and heading south would have been an inspiration to
>many. Mind you he may have done so so I stand to be corrected
>Butts
>
>


Trust me, they are probably better without Bubba Bush getting in the
way. He would only screw things up worse than they already are......

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Probably cause most security forces are in far off places fighting a war!

Ibby

"Dallas" <Cybnorm@spam_me_not.Hotmail.Com> wrote in message
news:eu1Se.5282$Wd7.1711@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
> "John Ward"
>> So here's a pro-active challenge - what should be done to address the
>> aftermath of Katrina, including all aviation matters?
>
> The administration clearly does not understand the importance of moving
> security forces quickly into urban disasters. Baghdad after the fall of
> Sadam and New Orleans day five look pretty much the same to me.
>
>
> Dallas
>
>

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Capt Bob wrote:
>
> Trust me, they are probably better without Bubba Bush getting in the
> way. He would only screw things up worse than they already are......

GeoDubya couldn't organize a class picnic without a support staff!! Today
he's headed back for the second time in three days, for another great PHOTO
OP, and to see how many resources he can delay the implementaion of by his
presense, not to mention the ludicrous cost to the taxpayers for his
diversion...

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

___| reply |__________________________________________________________
If there is a 60nm exclusion zone around Air Force One does than that
mean any aid/supplies cannot be flown in/out when he is there?

_____________________________________________________________________

Here's what the main New Orleans paper reported Saturday:

Times-Picayune
Saturday, September 03, 2005
"Bush visit halts food delivery"
By Michelle Krupa, Staff writer

Three tons of food ready for delivery by air to refugees in St. Bernard

Parish and on Algiers Point sat on the Crescent City Connection bridge
Friday afternoon as air traffic was halted because of President Bush’s
visit to New Orleans, officials said.

The provisions, secured by U.S. Rep. Charlie Melancon, D-Napoleonville,
and
state Agriculture Commissioner Bob Odom, baked in the afternoon sun as
Bush
surveyed damage across southeast Louisiana five days after Katrina made

landfall as a Category 4 storm, said Melancon’s chief of staff, Casey
O’Shea.

“We had arrangements to airlift food by helicopter to these folks, and
now
the food is sitting in trucks because they won’t let helicopters fly,”
O’Shea said Friday afternoon.

The food was expected to be in the hands of storm survivors after the
president left the devastated region Friday night, he said.

-- Another story, which is sourced to German TV news (ZDF), "reported
that the president's visit was a completely staged event. Their crew
witnessed how the open air food distribution point Bush visited in
front of the cameras was torn down immediately after the president and
the herd of 'news people' had left and that others which were allegedly
being set up were abandoned at the same time." This is from a blog that
my wife reads, and so far I haven't been able to confirm whether it's
true or not. There may be something about it on the ZDF website
http://www.zdf.de but my German's not good enough to navigate it.

_________________________________________________________
Posted via the -Web to Usenet- forums at http://forums.simradar.com
Visit www.simradar.com and try our Flight Simulation Search Engine!

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

John Ward wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> It's far too easy to be wise after the event.
>
> So here's a pro-active challenge - what should be done to address the
> aftermath of Katrina, including all aviation matters?

I think everything that needs to be done is being done:

President Bush toured the area Friday, showed reporters bars where he
used to drink when he was in college, and told them Trent Lott is
building a new house and it's going to be a doozy and he can't wait to
sit on the porch.

I don't know about you, but I'm greatly relieved.



John

--


Von Herzen, moge es wieder zu Herzen gehen. --Beethoven

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Rick @midsouth.rr.com>
> Wait a minute... why should the rest of us pay for levee improvements,
> via
> our Federal Income Tax, in a city we don't live in?
> And for one built below sea level? If people and businesses wanted to
> live
> and do business there then should it not fall upon them to protect
> themselves?
> Funny that New Orleans could find the money to build a Superdome,
> convention
> center and a host of other magnificent facilities - yet were not able to
> tax
> themselves for proper levee maintenance!

Try learning facts before you post.



John

--


Von Herzen, moge es wieder zu Herzen gehen. --Beethoven

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

John Black wrote:

> Rick, it is a shame that some people will use any occasion to bash Bush.

It's a shame people used any occasion to Clinton Bash, too.

Or was everything, including 9/11, really all his fault?



John

--


Von Herzen, moge es wieder zu Herzen gehen. --Beethoven

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Jim wrote:
> Hi again,
>
> On Fri, 2 Sep 2005 22:26:59 +0100, "Simon Robbins"
> <simon@NOSPAMsjrobbins.demon.co.uk> wrote:>
>
>>Have you ever gone four days with food and little water, in 90 degree heat?
>
>
> I spent 356 days in Viet Nam in 1969/70, if that tells you anything

No, it doesn't. Oh, I know you think that means your experience is
comparable, but maybe it wasn't.



John

--


Von Herzen, moge es wieder zu Herzen gehen. --Beethoven