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Review of Epson R1800 complete at photo-i

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Anonymous
March 27, 2005 1:49:27 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

Caitlin wrote:
> Personally I'm lazy - I read the conclusion first :-)
>
> http://www.photo-i.co.uk/Reviews/interactive/Epson%20R1...
>
> I'm saving my pennies....

Sometimes I hate Vincent. I was so wanting him to give it a really poor
write-up so I wouldn't want it.

Damn you, Vincent, damned you to Hades! ;o)


--
In memory of MS MVP Alex Nichol: http://www.dts-l.org/
Anonymous
March 27, 2005 8:03:00 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

In article <tIm1e.28165$ls2.15558@fe06.highwinds-media.phx>, test@test.com
(Miss Perspicacia Tick) wrote:

> Damn you, Vincent, damned you to Hades! ;o)

Rest assured, he's on his way: '... 100+ years on matte media's...".
Arghhhh!

Jon.
Related resources
Anonymous
March 28, 2005 5:31:47 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 16:03 +0100 (BST), Jon@NOonlySPAMbrowsingTHANX.com
(Jon O'Brien) wrote:

>In article <tIm1e.28165$ls2.15558@fe06.highwinds-media.phx>, test@test.com
>(Miss Perspicacia Tick) wrote:
>
>> Damn you, Vincent, damned you to Hades! ;o)
>
>Rest assured, he's on his way: '... 100+ years on matte media's...".
>Arghhhh!
>
I've had my 2100 for 14 months and now I want to ditch it...

--

Hecate - The Real One
Hecate@newsguy.com
Fashion: Buying things you don't need, with money
you don't have, to impress people you don't like...
Anonymous
March 28, 2005 7:51:00 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

In article <s2ke419oi7ukknh1dpfpu40akjh6199uvs@4ax.com>,
hecate@newsguy.com (Hecate) wrote:

> I've had my 2100 for 14 months and now I want to ditch it...

Fair-weather friend! ;-)

Actually, I rather fancy one myself. Did you notice the rear paper guide?
That might solve the dilemma about the advisability of loading heavier
papers through the sheet-feeder.

You may have missed my point, though. It was the use of "media's" I was
screaming about. 'Media' is already the plural and, even if it were the
singular, the greengrocers' apostrophe would be enough to confine him to
Herme's care. Preferably without the fare for the ferry.

Jon.
Anonymous
March 28, 2005 8:00:26 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

the best thing about this is that it uses the 'same' (hopefully) 8-ink
set as the regular sized printer (R800 was it? or R900?) with the
clear-coat.

Following notes for those looking at this printer from the archival end
of things --- since this printer is supposed to make long-lasting prints.

------

That model was tested by Digital Camera magazine in Japan in both indoor
and outdoor conditions. the most recent tests show that this 8-ink
Epson has the lowest color shift of the printers tested (Epson & Canon
latest + Fujifilm Pictrography). This means that hopefully, prints from
the R1800 will last a decent number of months in open display, and
longer (decades) in cold storage. (You never know... but hopefully....)

Most other inkjet printers, forget it - search Yahoo on the POV Image
Epson Inkjet Orange Fading mess that also applies to almost all
non-pigmented inkjet prints made today. basically, dye = fades quickly
because UV + enviromental hazards break the chemical bonds quite easily
and quickly.

http://members.cox.net/rmeyer9/epson/

For archival prints, see also the Epson 2200, and other archival print
products from www.inkjetmall.com.

In the end, don't expect prints to last all that long -- all of the ones
I've printed over the years and stuck up on my work walls have faded in
a few months. Really have to protect them a lot more than most other
medium because these are all water soluble-based inks.

Also, note, in Japan, the same model numbered PX-G5000 notes that it's
30/80/200 years for open display/lighted/album lifespans... but again,
don't expect them to hang around that long!

The optimal display condition lifespans can also be seen at this place
(different set of tests vs Epson)
http://www.wilhelm-research.com/

Keep in mind Wilhelm imaging is also the site that posted a lot of
optimistic numbers for the Epson 870/etc. series before POV Image and
http://members.cox.net/rmeyer9/epson/ appeared and showed that their
tests didn't reflect reality by a dozen or so years (basically, they
said it took years, people saw their prints fading in weeks/months).

Why else would Epson offer a full 100% buyback on the Epson 870s and
others to so many people out there, including myself at that time? They
basically realized that their claims didn't match up with reality, and
the lawyers knew that, too.

On the other hand, it's not to say you can't have prints that'll last --
here, i've got prints goign all the way back to the HP Paintjet days
(10+ years ago) stored in a folder in cold storage in my room, and they
all look very good/great! Basically, stop air & light (UV/IR) from
attacking the print surface, and you'll be fine! (ie. treat it like the
Mona Lisa or Constitution stored under whatever they use and you'll be okay)
March 28, 2005 8:42:31 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

Hecate wrote:

> On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 16:03 +0100 (BST), Jon@NOonlySPAMbrowsingTHANX.com
> (Jon O'Brien) wrote:
>
>
>>In article <tIm1e.28165$ls2.15558@fe06.highwinds-media.phx>, test@test.com
>>(Miss Perspicacia Tick) wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Damn you, Vincent, damned you to Hades! ;o)
>>
>>Rest assured, he's on his way: '... 100+ years on matte media's...".
>>Arghhhh!
>>
>
> I've had my 2100 for 14 months and now I want to ditch it...
>
> --
>
>


So you going to buy a Canon then?
Anonymous
March 29, 2005 5:38:38 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 16:42:31 +1000, Rob <mesa@mine.com> wrote:


>So you going to buy a Canon then?

No I'd like to be able to print something this year and not have to
print it again before the year's out...

--

Hecate - The Real One
Hecate@newsguy.com
Fashion: Buying things you don't need, with money
you don't have, to impress people you don't like...
Anonymous
March 29, 2005 5:41:54 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 15:51 +0100 (BST), Jon@NOonlySPAMbrowsingTHANX.com
(Jon O'Brien) wrote:

>In article <s2ke419oi7ukknh1dpfpu40akjh6199uvs@4ax.com>,
>hecate@newsguy.com (Hecate) wrote:
>
>> I've had my 2100 for 14 months and now I want to ditch it...
>
>Fair-weather friend! ;-)

<g>

>Actually, I rather fancy one myself. Did you notice the rear paper guide?
>That might solve the dilemma about the advisability of loading heavier
>papers through the sheet-feeder.

Yes. Especially after what we've been discussing in mail :) 

>You may have missed my point, though. It was the use of "media's" I was
>screaming about. 'Media' is already the plural and, even if it were the
>singular, the greengrocers' apostrophe would be enough to confine him to
>Herme's care. Preferably without the fare for the ferry.
>
Oh I know. It really irritates me as well. Did you read "Eats, Shoots
and Leaves"? Brilliant ;-)

Which reminds of a joke that shouldn't be repeated for a family
audience... ;-D

--

Hecate - The Real One
Hecate@newsguy.com
Fashion: Buying things you don't need, with money
you don't have, to impress people you don't like...
Anonymous
March 29, 2005 4:19:00 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

In article <us8h411n65avuof3g798a5rjunm0utfv27@4ax.com>,
hecate@newsguy.com (Hecate) wrote:

> Did you read "Eats, Shoots and Leaves"?

Yes, and I've given copies to several people I thought might benefit from
reading it!

> Which reminds of a joke that shouldn't be repeated for a family
> audience... ;-D

My first thought when I saw the book. I wouldn't be at all surprised to
find that that's where she got the idea for the title.

Jon.
Anonymous
March 30, 2005 1:21:55 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

"David Chien" <chiendh@uci.edu> wrote in message
news:D 2a5qg$nuo$1@news.service.uci.edu...
> the best thing about this is that it uses the 'same' (hopefully) 8-ink set
> as the regular sized printer (R800 was it? or R900?) with the clear-coat.
>
> Following notes for those looking at this printer from the archival end of
> things --- since this printer is supposed to make long-lasting prints.
>
> ------
>
> That model was tested by Digital Camera magazine in Japan in both indoor
> and outdoor conditions. the most recent tests show that this 8-ink Epson
> has the lowest color shift of the printers tested (Epson & Canon latest +
> Fujifilm Pictrography). This means that hopefully, prints from the R1800
> will last a decent number of months in open display, and longer (decades)
> in cold storage. (You never know... but hopefully....)
>
> Most other inkjet printers, forget it - search Yahoo on the POV Image
> Epson Inkjet Orange Fading mess that also applies to almost all
> non-pigmented inkjet prints made today. basically, dye = fades quickly
> because UV + enviromental hazards break the chemical bonds quite easily
> and quickly.
>
> http://members.cox.net/rmeyer9/epson/
>
> For archival prints, see also the Epson 2200, and other archival print
> products from www.inkjetmall.com.
>
> In the end, don't expect prints to last all that long -- all of the ones
> I've printed over the years and stuck up on my work walls have faded in a
> few months. Really have to protect them a lot more than most other medium
> because these are all water soluble-based inks.
>
> Also, note, in Japan, the same model numbered PX-G5000 notes that it's
> 30/80/200 years for open display/lighted/album lifespans... but again,
> don't expect them to hang around that long!
>
> The optimal display condition lifespans can also be seen at this place
> (different set of tests vs Epson)
> http://www.wilhelm-research.com/
>
> Keep in mind Wilhelm imaging is also the site that posted a lot of
> optimistic numbers for the Epson 870/etc. series before POV Image and
> http://members.cox.net/rmeyer9/epson/ appeared and showed that their tests
> didn't reflect reality by a dozen or so years (basically, they said it
> took years, people saw their prints fading in weeks/months).
>
> Why else would Epson offer a full 100% buyback on the Epson 870s and
> others to so many people out there, including myself at that time? They
> basically realized that their claims didn't match up with reality, and the
> lawyers knew that, too.
>
> On the other hand, it's not to say you can't have prints that'll last --
> here, i've got prints goign all the way back to the HP Paintjet days (10+
> years ago) stored in a folder in cold storage in my room, and they all
> look very good/great! Basically, stop air & light (UV/IR) from attacking
> the print surface, and you'll be fine! (ie. treat it like the Mona Lisa
> or Constitution stored under whatever they use and you'll be okay)

Curious to know what you mean when you say cold storage? In the Archive work
this generally means sub-zero (Celsius). Do you store your prints in a
freezer in your room? 'Fine' is relative of course. Some photos you might
want to keep for a hell of a lot longer than 10 years!
Anonymous
March 30, 2005 1:21:56 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

> Curious to know what you mean when you say cold storage? In the Archive work
> this generally means sub-zero (Celsius). Do you store your prints in a
> freezer in your room? 'Fine' is relative of course. Some photos you might
> want to keep for a hell of a lot longer than 10 years!

oops, should say cool storage. been working in the lab too long =P

Basically, any moderate humidity and temperature environment (eg.
indoors, in a shaded room, in a bookshelf with books on both sides) will
do fine. Any location where there isn't any air circulation going on
and no direct light exposure on the paper surface. Sandwich prints in a
folder in a bookshelf, and they'll last for decades.

Longer than that, you'd have to look at archival methods libraries
use, in addition to how they encased the Constitution (if you really,
really want it to last).

http://www.archives.gov/preservation/
http://www.archives.gov/media_desk/press_kits/charters_...


---

More fading test results (various printers & ink sets):
http://inkjetmall.com/store/info/1000-hours.html
Anonymous
March 31, 2005 5:23:51 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

David Chien's comments here should be taken with a very large grain of
MSG. He has (and probably intentionally) taken numerous statements out
of context, and exaggerated those as well.

Epson did indeed have a problem with a failure of their light cyan dye
ink in a series of ink formulations, and also indeed Wilhelm's tests did
not reveal the problem. However, it should also be noted that the vast
majority of people who bought and used those printers and their inks had
NO problems whatsoever with this fading, and that is why it was missed
by Wilhelm. There is still not absolute consensus on what caused the
cyan failure, although it appears to have been related to high humidity
and air flow while the print dried during the first 24-48 hours, and the
use of microporous papers. The 4 color dye printers did not manifest
this problem, and even the 6 color models that did, kept some people up
at night trying to figure out HOW to make the ink fade. In other words,
the problem was hardly universal, and that is indeed why it got missed.

Personally, although I have done no tests, I suspect their are other
environmental issue than simply air movement and humidity involved. AT
one point, some suggested ozone levels might been the culprit, but I
believe that has since been put into the "unlikely" category.

However, more importantly, the problem has been resolved through
reformulation of the inks and papers, and again, these were dye inks.
No one has found Epson's pigment color inks to fail prematurely,
including the Durabrite and Ultrachrome inks. Those inks are used in
most of the C and CX printers (the early C6X series didn't), and the
2200/2100, and in the R800, R1800 and some RX printers.

Also, there are dozens if not more pigment and hybrid inks that are
available as 3rd party inks that work in Epson printers.

The newer HP dye inks have good fade resistance if used with swellable
polymer papers. Epson found the same thing, and introduced Colorlife
paper using the same technology for their dye printers, for those
wishing that technology, but it is vulnerable to wet. On the other
hand, some of the microporous papers Epson produces makes their dye inks
waterproof, or very nearly so, once dry.

Art


Caitlin wrote:

> "David Chien" <chiendh@uci.edu> wrote in message
> news:D 2a5qg$nuo$1@news.service.uci.edu...
>
>>the best thing about this is that it uses the 'same' (hopefully) 8-ink set
>>as the regular sized printer (R800 was it? or R900?) with the clear-coat.
>>
>>Following notes for those looking at this printer from the archival end of
>>things --- since this printer is supposed to make long-lasting prints.
>>
>>------
>>
>>That model was tested by Digital Camera magazine in Japan in both indoor
>>and outdoor conditions. the most recent tests show that this 8-ink Epson
>>has the lowest color shift of the printers tested (Epson & Canon latest +
>>Fujifilm Pictrography). This means that hopefully, prints from the R1800
>>will last a decent number of months in open display, and longer (decades)
>>in cold storage. (You never know... but hopefully....)
>>
>>Most other inkjet printers, forget it - search Yahoo on the POV Image
>>Epson Inkjet Orange Fading mess that also applies to almost all
>>non-pigmented inkjet prints made today. basically, dye = fades quickly
>>because UV + enviromental hazards break the chemical bonds quite easily
>>and quickly.
>>
>>http://members.cox.net/rmeyer9/epson/
>>
>>For archival prints, see also the Epson 2200, and other archival print
>>products from www.inkjetmall.com.
>>
>>In the end, don't expect prints to last all that long -- all of the ones
>>I've printed over the years and stuck up on my work walls have faded in a
>>few months. Really have to protect them a lot more than most other medium
>>because these are all water soluble-based inks.
>>
>>Also, note, in Japan, the same model numbered PX-G5000 notes that it's
>>30/80/200 years for open display/lighted/album lifespans... but again,
>>don't expect them to hang around that long!
>>
>>The optimal display condition lifespans can also be seen at this place
>>(different set of tests vs Epson)
>>http://www.wilhelm-research.com/
>>
>>Keep in mind Wilhelm imaging is also the site that posted a lot of
>>optimistic numbers for the Epson 870/etc. series before POV Image and
>>http://members.cox.net/rmeyer9/epson/ appeared and showed that their tests
>>didn't reflect reality by a dozen or so years (basically, they said it
>>took years, people saw their prints fading in weeks/months).
>>
>>Why else would Epson offer a full 100% buyback on the Epson 870s and
>>others to so many people out there, including myself at that time? They
>>basically realized that their claims didn't match up with reality, and the
>>lawyers knew that, too.
>>
>>On the other hand, it's not to say you can't have prints that'll last --
>>here, i've got prints goign all the way back to the HP Paintjet days (10+
>>years ago) stored in a folder in cold storage in my room, and they all
>>look very good/great! Basically, stop air & light (UV/IR) from attacking
>>the print surface, and you'll be fine! (ie. treat it like the Mona Lisa
>>or Constitution stored under whatever they use and you'll be okay)
>
>
> Curious to know what you mean when you say cold storage? In the Archive work
> this generally means sub-zero (Celsius). Do you store your prints in a
> freezer in your room? 'Fine' is relative of course. Some photos you might
> want to keep for a hell of a lot longer than 10 years!
>
>
Anonymous
April 1, 2005 5:46:07 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

Arthur Entlich wrote:

> David Chien's comments here should be taken with a very large grain of
> MSG. He has (and probably intentionally) taken numerous statements out
> of context, and exaggerated those as well.
>
> Epson did indeed have a problem with a failure of their light cyan dye
> ink in a series of ink formulations, and also indeed Wilhelm's tests did
> not reveal the problem. However, it should also be noted that the vast
> majority of people who bought and used those printers and their inks had

I'd invite anyone who wants to see these problems in real life to
simply come visit me at work where I've got prints from Epsons and
Canons up. The prints always fade within a year, noticable, too. And
feel free to bring in your own prints to post up as well. I'm sure
they'll be fading like the others within a year.

I can also Digital Camera magazine in Japan for months 2&3-2005 have
also written two articles on the same thing - inkjet print fading in a
few months of display, in both direct sunlight and indoor indirect
conditions, along with spectograph scans of the entire color spectrum
and deviation of faded print colors from the original as well.
Here, even the latest Epson 8-color inkjets with pigmented inks and
clearcoats show minor color shifts in a few months (less that the
others, and far different than a 100% no change at all result!).

I'd say if you don't think it's a problem for archival & museum
quality print makers using inkjets today, you'd better be prepared and
open your eyes! It's well known for years (POV Image Epson Orange
fading notes; Epson Japan - they even post and show ads where they
compare their own latest printers to prior models and show the
significant fading of older models; etc.).

----

Now, that's not to say you can have a print last, easily. That's
simple - simply slip it into a album plastic pocket, into a sheet
protector (archival plastics, of course), and keep it closed most of the
time away from direct sunlight exposure and you'll be fine for years and
years -- just like my own prints from dozens of inkjets over the past
10+ years going all the way back to the HP Paintjet that still look fine
being inside a folder all these years.

But certainly don't expect something up on the walls with some
indirect sunlight and air exposure to last long!
!