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Arstechnica Article: Why AMD-ATI merger/purchase would work

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June 13, 2006 7:16:14 PM

http://arstechnica.com/articles/culture/amd-ati.ars/1

Great article. I'm pleased to see that someone has finally looked at the financial side of this (supposed) deal.

I still think it's very likely to happen. As I said before, AMD needs to grow. The only real way they can do that is to buy another semiconductor company.
June 13, 2006 7:58:29 PM

Quote:
http://arstechnica.com/articles/culture/amd-ati.ars/1

Great article. I'm pleased to see that someone has finally looked at the financial side of this (supposed) deal.

I still think it's very likely to happen. As I said before, AMD needs to grow. The only real way they can do that is to buy another semiconductor company.


I read the article, and it is very interesting. The whole thing does make a lot of business sense, since it can leverage AMD onto the same level as Intel once and for all. I just wonder though if it will ever happen.
June 13, 2006 8:04:07 PM

Quote:
http://arstechnica.com/articles/culture/amd-ati.ars/1

Great article. I'm pleased to see that someone has finally looked at the financial side of this (supposed) deal.

I still think it's very likely to happen. As I said before, AMD needs to grow. The only real way they can do that is to buy another semiconductor company.


i still don't see it. Sure they would then have their own chipset but what happens with nVidia?
The better idea is to stay teh way they are and use 3rd parties. A move like that woud split the PC business in a bad way. If they stay separate it's easier to put pressure on Intel to use cHT. They probably stil wouldn't though.
I would just like to see a nice juicy GPU in a socket
June 13, 2006 8:17:53 PM

Quote:
http://arstechnica.com/articles/culture/amd-ati.ars/1

Great article. I'm pleased to see that someone has finally looked at the financial side of this (supposed) deal.

I still think it's very likely to happen. As I said before, AMD needs to grow. The only real way they can do that is to buy another semiconductor company.


i still don't see it. Sure they would then have their own chipset but what happens with nVidia?
The better idea is to stay teh way they are and use 3rd parties. A move like that woud split the PC business in a bad way. If they stay separate it's easier to put pressure on Intel to use cHT. They probably stil wouldn't though.
I would just like to see a nice juicy GPU in a socket

My thoughts exactly.

I could be way off base here, but the only reason that I can see all this hubbub being made is as a little marketing ploy to put pressure on someone. Sounds a little like what Dell did for some time to Intel. Like I said, I could be way off base, though.
June 13, 2006 8:21:40 PM

Quote:
http://arstechnica.com/articles/culture/amd-ati.ars/1

Great article. I'm pleased to see that someone has finally looked at the financial side of this (supposed) deal.

I still think it's very likely to happen. As I said before, AMD needs to grow. The only real way they can do that is to buy another semiconductor company.


i still don't see it. Sure they would then have their own chipset but what happens with nVidia?
The better idea is to stay teh way they are and use 3rd parties. A move like that woud split the PC business in a bad way. If they stay separate it's easier to put pressure on Intel to use cHT. They probably stil wouldn't though.
I would just like to see a nice juicy GPU in a socket

You guys keep looking at it from a technical stand point. What if this (alleged) merger has nothing to do with technology?

Let me give you an example: the company I work for announced yesterday that we're buying another security company. the purchase has absolutely nothing to do with security technology and in no way will it benefit anyone. the sole reason for purchase is growth. my company simply wants to get bigger. period.
June 13, 2006 8:26:11 PM

Exactly. The problem with that merger is that they would severly piss off Nvidia. The last thing AMD would want to do is piss Nvidia off and have Nvidia stop making chipsets for them. That would eliminate nearly all their best chipsets since all you'd be left with is ATIs 3200 chipset (which is great though). That wouldn't be good for business. Especially with the fight against Conroe coming they need as many solutions as possible.
June 13, 2006 8:31:32 PM

Quote:
http://arstechnica.com/articles/culture/amd-ati.ars/1

Great article. I'm pleased to see that someone has finally looked at the financial side of this (supposed) deal.

I still think it's very likely to happen. As I said before, AMD needs to grow. The only real way they can do that is to buy another semiconductor company.


i still don't see it. Sure they would then have their own chipset but what happens with nVidia?
The better idea is to stay teh way they are and use 3rd parties. A move like that woud split the PC business in a bad way. If they stay separate it's easier to put pressure on Intel to use cHT. They probably stil wouldn't though.
I would just like to see a nice juicy GPU in a socket

You guys keep looking at it from a technical stand point. What if this (alleged) merger has nothing to do with technology?

Let me give you an example: the company I work for announced yesterday that we're buying another security company. the purchase has absolutely nothing to do with security technology and in no way will it benefit anyone. the sole reason for purchase is growth. my company simply wants to get bigger. period.


No i'm looking at it from an industry standpoint. nVidia is closer to AMD than ATi is and that make for some hard feelings. does AMD then say they need to limit the amount of nVidia chipsets? if they do how will the partners like DFI (100% AMD with mostly nVidia chipsets) react to losing the money?

I think it would be great if it wasn't so invasive and even damaging to the industry as a whole and that's Intel's job.
Ars putit in a great light and it would be slightly beneficial to AMD but from a PARTNER point of view that is exactly the opposit direction AMD wants ot go in.

It'll be easier to promote cHT if two sepaprate GPU comapnies are pushing it. By merging that woul dleave one GPU maker and -despite the opinions t the contrary - not help much with Intel. AMD basically has a platform now with the nVidia business platform and that maybe what Dell is extending its sales to.

I;m sure ATi will produce a platform soon also for AMD so they don't need to join. I do see where you're coming from though.
June 13, 2006 8:32:34 PM

Quote:
Exactly. The problem with that merger is that they would severly piss off Nvidia. The last thing AMD would want to do is piss Nvidia off and have Nvidia stop making chipsets for them. That would eliminate nearly all their best chipsets since all you'd be left with is ATIs 3200 chipset (which is great though). That wouldn't be good for business. Especially with the fight against Conroe coming they need as many solutions as possible.



Yeah AMDs word of the day is

PARTNERS
June 13, 2006 9:11:28 PM

Quote:
The problem with that merger is that they would severly piss off Nvidia.


No it wouldn't. nVidia might be disappointed, but it's not going to piss anyone off. This is business.

Besides, a vast majority of nVidia's chipset sales are AMD based. nVidia can't afford to squawk about it. The smartest thing they can do is kiss AMD's ass and hope AMD continues to throw the scraps at them.

And despite what ya'll might think, nVidia will never have a big piece of Intel chipset market share because they won't let them. Intel won't cut off their own noses.
June 13, 2006 9:36:54 PM

I hope the deal goes through with ATI as I like where they are heading with their DX10 architecture. Nvidia's approach seems to be brute force rather than developing a smart architecture. I've read that G80 will simply be 2 48 fixed pipe GPU's fused together with some geometry shader's thrown int0 the mix whereas ATI has already started to move toward the trend giving cards more shader power rather than just upping the pipe's.
Either way if this deal goes through I could see AMD making a platform with real potentional while still retaining the vid card buisness as a seperate entity(although the name may change). This could all come together with a 3rd 300 mm Fab and some good marketing and agressive pricing.
June 13, 2006 10:18:16 PM

Quote:
The problem with that merger is that they would severly piss off Nvidia.


No it wouldn't. nVidia might be disappointed, but it's not going to piss anyone off. This is business.

Besides, a vast majority of nVidia's chipset sales are AMD based. nVidia can't afford to squawk about it. The smartest thing they can do is kiss AMD's ass and hope AMD continues to throw the scraps at them.

And despite what ya'll might think, nVidia will never have a big piece of Intel chipset market share because they won't let them. Intel won't cut off their own noses.
Exactly. Nvidia will have no place to go and whine too. Even if Nvidia did go to Intel, who do you think would get the better end of that deal? I'll give you a clue, it won't be Nvidia. Nvidia would be better off on it's own and continue working with both companies than allow itself to get swallowed up by Intel.
June 13, 2006 10:33:11 PM

Quote:
The problem with that merger is that they would severly piss off Nvidia.


No it wouldn't. nVidia might be disappointed, but it's not going to piss anyone off. This is business.

Besides, a vast majority of nVidia's chipset sales are AMD based. nVidia can't afford to squawk about it. The smartest thing they can do is kiss AMD's ass and hope AMD continues to throw the scraps at them.

And despite what ya'll might think, nVidia will never have a big piece of Intel chipset market share because they won't let them. Intel won't cut off their own noses.

Beleive me I know nVidia won't get closer to Intel since Intel make stheir own chipsets and sometims even graphics cards. WHen you consider that nVidia bought ULi and cut off some ATi mobo makers from the SB, it's no impossible that AMD would have problems with it.

I admit it woul dbe a good thing and that AMD and ATi may have thought about it but I don't see it because of AMDs desire to keep ALL partners happy.
June 13, 2006 11:12:53 PM

Quote:
http://arstechnica.com/articles/culture/amd-ati.ars/1

Great article. I'm pleased to see that someone has finally looked at the financial side of this (supposed) deal.

I still think it's very likely to happen. As I said before, AMD needs to grow. The only real way they can do that is to buy another semiconductor company.


BULLSHIT.
This won't happen.
June 13, 2006 11:18:50 PM

Bunch of BS. ATi stands to loose half it's market, as now they are much preferred for Intel systems where nvidia is crap. It would hurt Intel and ATi too much to be practical. The only good is the use of AMD fabs.

I could tear that article apart and flame it, but it's not worth it. Time will tell if it's true. I hope not!
June 13, 2006 11:30:07 PM

It makes more sense for AMD to acquire Nvidia and leave crappy ATI for intel.
June 13, 2006 11:35:02 PM

ATI may be the cheaper of the two possible targets, but nVidia is a much juicier morsel. It would make more sense (to me) for AMD to buy a controlling share in nVidia to cement the ties between them, and then do a full buyout after a few years when they have built up enough cash reserves. In the chipset buisiness, the nVidia brand name is quality, the ATI brand is not. AMD could leverage nVidia against Intel by denying high end chipsets to the Intel platforms, siphoning off the enthusiast crowd.

Also, a deal with nVidia would not damage any of AMD's critical partnerships, while an ATI deal could sour relations between AMD and nVidia, and therefor with the motherboard manufacturers who turn to nVidia for high end chipsets.
June 13, 2006 11:37:14 PM

Quote:
I hope the deal goes through with ATI as I like where they are heading with their DX10 architecture. Nvidia's approach seems to be brute force rather than developing a smart architecture. I've read that G80 will simply be 2 48 fixed pipe GPU's fused together with some geometry shader's thrown int0 the mix whereas ATI has already started to move toward the trend giving cards more shader power rather than just upping the pipe's.
Either way if this deal goes through I could see AMD making a platform with real potentional while still retaining the vid card buisness as a seperate entity(although the name may change). This could all come together with a 3rd 300 mm Fab and some good marketing and agressive pricing.


Just because nVidia hasn't unified their shaders doesn't mean they rely on "brute force." MS is not he authority on HW programming. They already have a platform from nVidia that s ONLY - for now - AMD based. It will probably be in the next round of HP desktops.

And added to that is the fact that then AMD would have to either share space for X1000 or continue to pay out for FAB usage. Anyway you look at it, Charlie Demerejian(sp) the man who started this rumor on The Inquirer also said Dell wouldn't go with Opteron. I'm sure this won't be the best thing for Intel - even as a rumor - but I don't think it'll go farther than rumors.
June 13, 2006 11:37:39 PM

Quote:
It makes more sense for AMD to acquire Nvidia and leave crappy ATI for intel.

Nvidia is better for AMD, for sure. ATi is good, good enough to beat nvidia on all top spots of the ORB. Look at XS news, or dig a hole and hide from the fact Conroe+Crossfire=Benchmark Domination.

I hope to buy a RD600 mobo, but if a merger is comming it's 975 for me. If nvidia can do better than the junk they have made I might go their way, but I can't see it yet.
June 13, 2006 11:44:48 PM

Quote:
Bunch of BS. ATi stands to loose half it's market, as now they are much preferred for Intel systems where nvidia is crap. It would hurt Intel and ATi too much to be practical. The only good is the use of AMD fabs.

I could tear that article apart and flame it, but it's not worth it. Time will tell if it's true. I hope not!



I don't think ATi has crap and nVidia probably wouldn't want to do it. As the article states it would cost a lot more to acquire nVidia and that would alienate ATi.

Again, I doubt it.
June 13, 2006 11:49:11 PM

Quote:
Bunch of BS. ATi stands to loose half it's market, as now they are much preferred for Intel systems where nvidia is crap. It would hurt Intel and ATi too much to be practical. The only good is the use of AMD fabs.

I could tear that article apart and flame it, but it's not worth it. Time will tell if it's true. I hope not!



I don't think ATi has crap and nVidia probably wouldn't want to do it. As the article states it would cost a lot more to acquire nVidia and that would alienate ATi.

Again, I doubt it.
June 13, 2006 11:57:01 PM

Is the fourm slow, or do you have fast fingers? Click, Click. :lol: 
June 14, 2006 12:07:45 AM

Quote:
It makes more sense for AMD to acquire Nvidia and leave crappy ATI for intel.

Nvidia is better for AMD, for sure. ATi is good, good enough to beat nvidia on all top spots of the ORB. Look at XS news, or dig a hole and hide from the fact Conroe+Crossfire=Benchmark Domination.

I hope to buy a RD600 mobo, but if a merger is comming it's 975 for me. If nvidia can do better than the junk they have made I might go their way, but I can't see it yet.


Except that Core 2 (965) doesn't support Crossfire.
June 14, 2006 12:08:57 AM

The forum is slow. I go to another page befor clicking twice.
June 14, 2006 12:14:01 AM

Sort of odd they even did that article since its been debunked and all. And I don't want ATi to be dragged down by AMD, ugh.
June 14, 2006 12:35:10 AM

Quote:
The problem with that merger is that they would severly piss off Nvidia.


No it wouldn't. nVidia might be disappointed, but it's not going to piss anyone off. This is business.

Besides, a vast majority of nVidia's chipset sales are AMD based. nVidia can't afford to squawk about it. The smartest thing they can do is kiss AMD's ass and hope AMD continues to throw the scraps at them.

And despite what ya'll might think, nVidia will never have a big piece of Intel chipset market share because they won't let them. Intel won't cut off their own noses.

Still within the same speculative mood and considering an AMD/ATi merger/aquisition, I agree that ATi would still be able to sell GPU/PPU through the retail/consumer markets; it's also mentioned in the ARS article (that would depend upon both parties agreement, of course). That, together with the merger/aquisition common platform products, would certainly make both companies shine & give AMD a unified platform, à la Intel.
What I fail to see is nVidia hurting badly, function of such a m/a. One of the possible drawbacks is that it could backfire, in creating such a specific & proprietary platform.
Apparently, AMD/ATi would seem a perfect combination: Top-of-the-line CPUs, GPUs/PPUs in a coherent HyperTransport interconnect. And, I believe this to be one of the issues (letting aside all the potential technical advantages cHT could bring), since it would sort of close the door to PCIe: Who would buy PCIe while having cHT?!
Another issue would be the proprietary nature of the platform itself: cHT slot(s)/mainboard/GPU/PPU/ASIC and CPUs, of course. Intel will not support Crossfire in its chipsets; will nVidia?! Intel still sets the standards, where standards are concerned: mainboard layout, form factor, chipset specs, PCIe implementation & upgrades, just to name a few [decisive] ones. This fact alone, could bring nVidia still closer to Intel, dragging third party manufacturers & letting more & more isolated a shiny but proprietary solution.

Well, playing Devil's Advocate & just speculating!


Cheers!
June 14, 2006 1:09:00 AM

nVidia makes its living off the high-end and enthusiast chipsets. AMD/ATI merger would involve using ATI to make consumer, mainstream based whole platforms, you know the type of systems you see in Best Buy and Circuit City. So no way would nVidia be hurt by this merger, as they'd only lose out on the platform market, which is a small percentage of sales with AMD systems, since Intel still dominates that market with there whole platform solutions. The merger has more benefits for both companies then it has disadvantages. The one platform ATI couldn't help AMD with, is using in house chipsets in the Server market, where ATI has no chipsets and nVidia makes really good ones.

I personally would like to see an AMD/nVidia merger since there platforms are synonmously reconized together through out the world, and are practically optimized to run together. BUT the ATI merger as the right price tag, and ATI could use the help to expand themselves. ATI has everything to gain from the merger, AMD gains what they need to become the competition Intel needs to force some more 50% price cuts in the future.
June 14, 2006 2:51:15 AM

It is interesting but I doubt it would happen. People have already mentioned that AMD is much closer to nVidia than it is to ATI. At the same time Intel is a lot closer to ATI than nVidia. Afterall, ATI did allow Intel to have Crossfire support in the i975X chipsets while nVidia was stedfast against the idea. My opinion on the i965 not having Crossfire is that it was more Intel's choice than ATI's since they had to differentiate the slower i975X somehow. The lack of Crossfire support turns out to be a hardware difficiency anyways not ATI denying permission. ATI and Intel have also been working closely together in the last year, with Intel evening selling ATI chipsets much to their embarassement. Even though Intel's own chipset production is finally getting back inline, I believe there is still 1 or 2 ATI partnered chipsets in the works with Conroe support. Given that the GMA X3000 seems to have 8 unified shaders, the first on the PC market, and ATI has unified shaders in the R600, I have a suspect that there was probably some quiet technology sharing on that front. The upcoming RD600 chipset also appears to be the ideal enthousiast platform of Conroe. With Intel relying so much on ATI, it's doubtful that they would sit idlely by and letting AMD acquire it.

On the nVidia side of things, the it's already been mentioned that a large portion of AMD's chipsets are supplied by nVidia. Also AMD's new 4x4 platform is a definite nod to nVidia. The second 4 references quad SLI. It wouldn't make any sense for AMD to develop an exclusive platform with nVidia and then turn around and partner or buy ATI.

Lastly, being a Canadian, I'll have to put my foot down and say this will not and cannot happen. I hope.
June 14, 2006 4:49:58 AM

Quote:
ATI may be the cheaper of the two possible targets, but nVidia is a much juicier morsel. It would make more sense (to me) for AMD to buy a controlling share in nVidia to cement the ties between them, and then do a full buyout after a few years when they have built up enough cash reserves. In the chipset buisiness, the nVidia brand name is quality, the ATI brand is not. AMD could leverage nVidia against Intel by denying high end chipsets to the Intel platforms, siphoning off the enthusiast crowd.


That idea is synonymous with a hostile takeover. AMD has never been in the business of brute force. Only companies who have wack jobs at the helm (like Oracle) do hostile takeovers. And then they end up regretting it down the road because they paid way too much.

But, from a tech standpoint, an AMD-nVidia MERGER makes very, very good sense.
June 14, 2006 1:18:38 PM

Quote:
ATI may be the cheaper of the two possible targets, but nVidia is a much juicier morsel. It would make more sense (to me) for AMD to buy a controlling share in nVidia to cement the ties between them, and then do a full buyout after a few years when they have built up enough cash reserves. In the chipset buisiness, the nVidia brand name is quality, the ATI brand is not. AMD could leverage nVidia against Intel by denying high end chipsets to the Intel platforms, siphoning off the enthusiast crowd.


That idea is synonymous with a hostile takeover. AMD has never been in the business of brute force. Only companies who have wack jobs at the helm (like Oracle) do hostile takeovers. And then they end up regretting it down the road because they paid way too much.

But, from a tech standpoint, an AMD-nVidia MERGER makes very, very good sense.



From AMDZone

AMD invests in Raza

Quote:
"We are extremely pleased to enter into a strategic relationship with AMD and to bring them on as an investor. RMI is continuing to expand its product offerings and customer base, and the acquisition of the Alchemy product family bolsters our portfolio significantly," said Atiq Raza, chairman and chief executive officer, RMI.


So it looks like AMD has it's own plans. All of you should remember where this rumor came from. Charlie already has to wear a bunny suit.
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