Sign in with
Sign up | Sign in
Your question

New FS2004 user

Last response: in Video Games
Share
Anonymous
September 6, 2005 1:02:12 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

I could use some help from anyone who has the patience to help a newcomer to
FS2004. I have version 9.1 and a CH Flight Sim yoke. I know very little
about flying the simulator.

One thing I found difficult was to follow the Rod Machado tutorials. I have
gone through the first 5 or 6. Specifically, I can't get the trim correct
in the time allotted. Is there a better way to learn the basics than the
tutorials provided with the software? Also, should I do anything with the
yoke itself. The computer seems to recognize each of the buttons, but I am
uncertain what the little round wheel does (it is on the main body of the
yoke to the left and sits vertical to the body.) I noticed it affects the
pitch, but is it just for calibration, or does it have a trim function in
the simulator?

Thanks very much in advance for your help.

Regards,

Saul

More about : fs2004 user

Anonymous
September 6, 2005 1:02:13 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Saul Cohen" <sjcohen@cableone.net> wrote in message
news:11hq1lchqh4cq32@corp.supernews.com...
>I could use some help from anyone who has the patience to help a newcomer
>to FS2004. I have version 9.1 and a CH Flight Sim yoke. I know very
>little about flying the simulator.
>
> One thing I found difficult was to follow the Rod Machado tutorials. I
> have gone through the first 5 or 6. Specifically, I can't get the trim
> correct in the time allotted. ...

I don't rely on the trim in the Sim as much as I would in real life, I find
it less frustrating to just fly with my hand on the yoke and a little back
or forward pressure. I do use the trim to relieve some of the pressure, but
I don't try to "set" the trim and then fly hands off, never has worked right
for me. When I want to fly hands off I engage the autopilot. It's not
realistic, but I think it's a compromise I have to make to keep the simming
fun and not frustrating.

-Gary Letona
Anonymous
September 6, 2005 2:22:43 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Marco and Gary,

Thank you both for the help. I really appreciate it. Now if I could just
figure out how to keep the CH Yoke from falling off the computer table. The
company could have done a better job of engineering it. I have a beveled
edge table, and the yoke loosens up in a few minutes.

Regards

Saul


"Gary L." <noone@123.net> wrote in message
news:4YednTaZ8qJxj4DeRVn-qg@comcast.com...
>
> "Saul Cohen" <sjcohen@cableone.net> wrote in message
> news:11hq1lchqh4cq32@corp.supernews.com...
>>I could use some help from anyone who has the patience to help a newcomer
>>to FS2004. I have version 9.1 and a CH Flight Sim yoke. I know very
>>little about flying the simulator.
>>
>> One thing I found difficult was to follow the Rod Machado tutorials. I
>> have gone through the first 5 or 6. Specifically, I can't get the trim
>> correct in the time allotted. ...
>
> I don't rely on the trim in the Sim as much as I would in real life, I
> find it less frustrating to just fly with my hand on the yoke and a little
> back or forward pressure. I do use the trim to relieve some of the
> pressure, but I don't try to "set" the trim and then fly hands off, never
> has worked right for me. When I want to fly hands off I engage the
> autopilot. It's not realistic, but I think it's a compromise I have to
> make to keep the simming fun and not frustrating.
>
> -Gary Letona
>
Related resources
Anonymous
September 6, 2005 3:28:37 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Saul Cohen" <sjcohen@cableone.net> wrote in message
news:11hq1lchqh4cq32@corp.supernews.com...
> I could use some help from anyone who has the patience to help a newcomer
to
> FS2004. I have version 9.1 and a CH Flight Sim yoke. I know very little
> about flying the simulator.
>
> One thing I found difficult was to follow the Rod Machado tutorials. I
have
> gone through the first 5 or 6. Specifically, I can't get the trim correct
> in the time allotted. Is there a better way to learn the basics than the
> tutorials provided with the software? Also, should I do anything with the
> yoke itself. The computer seems to recognize each of the buttons, but I
am
> uncertain what the little round wheel does (it is on the main body of the
> yoke to the left and sits vertical to the body.) I noticed it affects the
> pitch, but is it just for calibration, or does it have a trim function in
> the simulator?
>
> Thanks very much in advance for your help.
>
> Regards,
>
> Saul

That trim button on the main body of the yoke ... I never use it. I don't
think I have ever set it either. I left it where it is. That's the yoke trim
.... not the simulator trim. The sim trim is actually a function of the sim
itself and you can configure any set of buttons for the trim up and trim
down.

Trim is actually vitally important (in some real life planes like the
Cherokee that have one hell of a wimpy elevator it's probably the MOST
important thing you touch before landing, even more that flaps)

In flight sim I configured the swinging switch on the left hand handle (the
grey one to the right of the two red buttons) to be the trim.

Pressing it forward trims down, pressing it backwards trims up. You can set
it up however you want.

THe way you trim both in Flight sim and real life (in my case) is this:

you use the yoke to push the nose of the plane up or down until the plane
doesn't climb anymore. You wait for a few seconds to let the speed adjust
and you move the yoke (again) to adjust for the climbing or descending
tendency.

At that point you trim to relieve the pressure you need to apply to the yoke
until the plane flies level without you having to touch the yoke.

So if you need to push the yoke down, it means that the plane is trimmed up
.... so you you need to trim down. That's where real life separates a bit
from the sim.

In real life I just keep the yoke where it is and I can feel it "relax" in
my hands as I trim. When I feel no back pressure, that's when I trimmed it
where I need it.

In the flight sim, as you trim down the plane's nose will pitch down ... so
you need to start gradually relaxing your pressure and bring the yoke back
into neutral position.

So you trim down a couple of clicks and push a little less and adjust the
yoke to keep the plane level, then you trim down some more and you push even
less and and again, you find the sweet spot.

Then you trim and relax until you can feel that the yoke as at the neutral
position. That's when if you let go of the yoke (same as in real life) the
plane will simply fly straight without you having to touch it.

Ideally ... planes (at least the normal ones ... not aerobatic that is)
should be flown hands off. They fly themselves, when properly trimmed.

My instructor loves to say: "Millions of hours of engineering went into your
plane. It knows about flying more than you do. Trim it and leave it alone."

Hope that helps.

Marco

--
The Pilot Lounge Aviation Community and MessageBoard
http://www.thepilotlounge.com
Anonymous
September 6, 2005 9:57:24 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Saul Cohen" <sjcohen@cableone.net> wrote in message
news:11hq6cg6o5c00fa@corp.supernews.com...
> Now if I could just figure out how to keep the CH Yoke from falling off
> the computer table. The company could have done a better job of
> engineering it. I have a beveled edge table, and the yoke loosens up in a
> few minutes.

You have good timing! Read the newsgroup thread "caveat emptor" from
September 4. It has the pictures of the fix made by another user of the
flight yoke who also has a table with a beveled edge.
Anonymous
September 6, 2005 1:53:05 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Gary L." <noone@123.net> wrote in message
news:4YednTaZ8qJxj4DeRVn-qg@comcast.com...
>
> I don't rely on the trim in the Sim as much as I would in real life, I
find
> it less frustrating to just fly with my hand on the yoke and a little back
> or forward pressure. I do use the trim to relieve some of the pressure,
but
> I don't try to "set" the trim and then fly hands off, never has worked
right
> for me. When I want to fly hands off I engage the autopilot. It's not
> realistic, but I think it's a compromise I have to make to keep the
simming
> fun and not frustrating.
>
> -Gary Letona
>
>

That actually brings up a good point.

If I were flying jets I wouldn't really bother with trim. If I am flying
jets (alas only in Flight Sim) I just use the yoke and then switch to
autopilot. If I fly jets that means a good 2 hours at cruise and I am not
going to rely on trimming to set the altitude.

As for trimming the AP takes care of that (the AP actually in jets controls
the trim, not the elevator). So during the landing phase when I land
manually (which i do almost 99% of the time) the plane is already nice and
trimmed for my by the autopilot. I usually use the trim in jets only if it's
wildly off center (in case of missed approach while climbing and cleaning
the plane for example trim needs to be reset) ... but I don't really do it
too precisely. As soon as I can I hand the plane over to the AP.

When I fly GA planes ... well that's different. I use trim all the time
since some of them don't have altitude hold (yes, you can change the panel
manually and altitude hold, lo and behold, magically appears ... sans the
4000 bux it would cost to install it in real life. I wish it was that
simple). I try to fly GA planes as close to the real thing as I can.

Marco

--
The Pilot Lounge Aviation Community and MessageBoard
http://www.thepilotlounge.com
Anonymous
September 6, 2005 8:41:32 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Marco Rispoli" <marcorispoli@hotmail.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:k%gTe.336$wH6.115@fe10.lga...
> "Gary L." <noone@123.net> wrote in message
> news:4YednTaZ8qJxj4DeRVn-qg@comcast.com...
> If I were flying jets I wouldn't really bother with trim. If I am flying
> jets (alas only in Flight Sim) I just use the yoke and then switch to
> autopilot. If I fly jets that means a good 2 hours at cruise and I am not
> going to rely on trimming to set the altitude.
>
Well, trimming is not intended to keep an A/C's altitude ;-) It's sole
purpose is to achieve stable flight conditions and thus no pressure on
whatever steering axis is concerned. For altitude holding indeed a
(reliable) A/P is the only means.

> As for trimming the AP takes care of that (the AP actually in jets
> controls
> the trim, not the elevator). So during the landing phase when I land
> manually (which i do almost 99% of the time) the plane is already nice and
> trimmed for my by the autopilot. I usually use the trim in jets only if
> it's
> wildly off center (in case of missed approach while climbing and cleaning
> the plane for example trim needs to be reset) ... but I don't really do it
> too precisely. As soon as I can I hand the plane over to the AP.
>
Not quite correct. Trim would be way too slow to control the A/C. The servos
usually work directly with the elevator and then trim will be consecutively
used to reduce servo force to zero. Even the FS A/P works like that.
Unfortunately there's a bad glitch in FS' A/P's as you can even operate the
trim while A/P is on. I only know of ONE G/A A/C which would have allowed
that, but never on "big iron". Ohh, and btw, you should ALWAYS trim to
stable conditions before engaging the A/P. FS will mercifully forgive you
but IRL you would scare your passengers as under normal conditions the A/C
would jerk quite nicely... ;-)))

> When I fly GA planes ... well that's different. I use trim all the time
> since some of them don't have altitude hold (yes, you can change the panel
> manually and altitude hold, lo and behold, magically appears ... sans the
> 4000 bux it would cost to install it in real life. I wish it was that
> simple). I try to fly GA planes as close to the real thing as I can.
>
Well, at least ALL the FS G/A A/C (equipped with A/P) that I know are also
equipped with ALT hold function. Did I miss some? ;-)
--
Oskar Wagner
(retired Captain)

Remember, in the great scheme of things, we're all small potatoes....
Anonymous
September 6, 2005 8:41:33 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Oskar Wagner" <rengaw@swissonline.ch> wrote in message
news:D fk9p2$q5j$1@news.hispeed.ch...

> Well, trimming is not intended to keep an A/C's altitude ;-) It's sole
> purpose is to achieve stable flight conditions and thus no pressure on
> whatever steering axis is concerned. For altitude holding indeed a
> (reliable) A/P is the only means.

Well ... I have to disagree here. The best altitude holding device is the
Pilot. As pilot you are responsible for keeping the plane at the altitude
where it belongs. You as a pilot can be quite reliable if you are properly
motivated (not getting yelled at by ATC for example).

I was simplifying by the way ... you don't trim for altitude. You trim for
speed.

It's the altitude and power setting COMBINED that give you a constant
altitude.

> Not quite correct. Trim would be way too slow to control the A/C. The
servos
> usually work directly with the elevator and then trim will be
consecutively
> used to reduce servo force to zero. Even the FS A/P works like that.
> Unfortunately there's a bad glitch in FS' A/P's as you can even operate
the
> trim while A/P is on. I only know of ONE G/A A/C which would have allowed
> that, but never on "big iron". Ohh, and btw, you should ALWAYS trim to
> stable conditions before engaging the A/P. FS will mercifully forgive you
> but IRL you would scare your passengers as under normal conditions the A/C
> would jerk quite nicely... ;-)))

Humm ... interesting. That doesn't match with what I know ... in 737s the AP
controls trim and the pilot controls the elevator. In fact in theory the
pilot can push the elevator down while the horizontal stabilizer is
travelling up. A 737 pilot told me that he usually "tunes up" the climb with
minimal elevator pressure while "Otto" (that's the way the call the AP)
takes care of trimming.

If you fight too much with the elevator Otto disengages but it allows you a
little bit of play first.

I can ask to confirm ... maybe the elevator is controlled by both the pilot
and the AP but that would be strange.


> Well, at least ALL the FS G/A A/C (equipped with A/P) that I know are also
> equipped with ALT hold function. Did I miss some? ;-)

Well yeah, you actually missed a bunch. On avsim you can download plenty of
AC with no autopilot at all ... Cessna 120, Cessna 140, 185 and there's
payware that doesn't have altitude hold either ... (the Carenado 182 RG
IIRC).


--
The Pilot Lounge Aviation Community and MessageBoard
http://www.thepilotlounge.com
Anonymous
September 6, 2005 10:17:40 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Marco Rispoli" <marcorispoli@hotmail.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:BfiTe.4527$Rd7.3672@fe11.lga...
> "Oskar Wagner" <rengaw@swissonline.ch> wrote in message
> news:D fk9p2$q5j$1@news.hispeed.ch...
>
>> Well, trimming is not intended to keep an A/C's altitude ;-) It's sole
>> purpose is to achieve stable flight conditions and thus no pressure on
>> whatever steering axis is concerned. For altitude holding indeed a
>> (reliable) A/P is the only means.
>
> Well ... I have to disagree here. The best altitude holding device is the
> Pilot. As pilot you are responsible for keeping the plane at the altitude
> where it belongs. You as a pilot can be quite reliable if you are properly
> motivated (not getting yelled at by ATC for example).

Sorry, I don't want to go too much into a discussion about flying
techniques. But to be straightforward: this is bullshit! (sorry again for
this somewhat rude expression..) If you had ever tried to fly a jet manually
for prolonged time and keep the altitude within +/- 30 ft (even at M.82 at
FL350) then you would know what you are talking about. I do..... And don't
tell me about responsabilities of a pilot. After a career of 25+ years in
airline operation I think I should pretty well know...:-))

> I was simplifying by the way ... you don't trim for altitude. You trim for
> speed.
>
> It's the altitude and power setting COMBINED that give you a constant
> altitude.

Mhh, again wrong as long as it is for cruise altitude. You set a specific
criuse power and keep the A/C level. The speed is resulting. And btw, flying
manually at a precise altitude becomes even more a nuisance if you use
Autothrottle which continuously chases speed.

>> Not quite correct. Trim would be way too slow to control the A/C. The
> servos
>> usually work directly with the elevator and then trim will be
> consecutively
>> used to reduce servo force to zero. Even the FS A/P works like that.
>> Unfortunately there's a bad glitch in FS' A/P's as you can even operate
> the
>> trim while A/P is on. I only know of ONE G/A A/C which would have allowed
>> that, but never on "big iron". Ohh, and btw, you should ALWAYS trim to
>> stable conditions before engaging the A/P. FS will mercifully forgive you
>> but IRL you would scare your passengers as under normal conditions the
>> A/C
>> would jerk quite nicely... ;-)))
>
> Humm ... interesting. That doesn't match with what I know ... in 737s the
> AP
> controls trim and the pilot controls the elevator. In fact in theory the
> pilot can push the elevator down while the horizontal stabilizer is
> travelling up. A 737 pilot told me that he usually "tunes up" the climb
> with
> minimal elevator pressure while "Otto" (that's the way the call the AP)
> takes care of trimming.

No, it's just not true. If you would have a look at the yoke you would
observe that the yoke is responding to the corrections and the trim will
just run to ADJUST.

> If you fight too much with the elevator Otto disengages but it allows you
> a
> little bit of play first.

Yes "Otto" (we called him George, different coutries, different names.... )
will indeed disengage. The limiting device is a (electrical) current limiter
on the servos. If you e.g. push on the yoke the A/C will start to descend.
You will feel the servos pulling quite violently on the yoke and
simultaneously the trim will run backwards as the servos try to correct for
a climbing attitude. As you lock the yoke under your forward push the
servo's will continue to try tu pull until they reach their operational
limit. Then A/P will disengage and you will have a heck of a time to correct
the mistrim! I did that quite a few times during acceptance testflights
after heavy maintenance when I was operational test pilot in our airline. So
believe me at least at that point. I know definitely what I'm talking of...
:-)))

> I can ask to confirm ... maybe the elevator is controlled by both the
> pilot
> and the AP but that would be strange.
>
>
>> Well, at least ALL the FS G/A A/C (equipped with A/P) that I know are
>> also
>> equipped with ALT hold function. Did I miss some? ;-)
>
> Well yeah, you actually missed a bunch. On avsim you can download plenty
> of
> AC with no autopilot at all ... Cessna 120, Cessna 140, 185 and there's
> payware that doesn't have altitude hold either ... (the Carenado 182 RG
> IIRC).
>
I told you: FS G/A A/C equipped with A/P.... But I believe you that the
Carenado 182 RG is without alt hold.
--
Oskar Wagner
(retired Captain)

Remember, in the great scheme of things, we're all small potatoes....
Anonymous
September 6, 2005 10:17:41 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"GeoffC" <geoff_noise@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:8843e$431ddaf6$5409c830$19257@allthenewsgroups.com...
> Oskar,
>
> Thanks for the feed back. I have also posted the question on the PMDG site
> because whenever I grab the yoke on my 747-400 the AP disengages which is
> not how CWS works.
>
> Still waiting in anticipation for Marco's reply :-)
>
> Regards
>
> Geoff
>

Sorry for the delay ... got stuck in meetings.

LOL... does this mean i just stumbled in the "tough guy" of the group?

Every group has one... well, nice to meet you Oskar!

can imagine all of you guys standing in a circle going "Fight! Fight!"

hehe

--
The Pilot Lounge Aviation Community and MessageBoard
http://www.thepilotlounge.com
Anonymous
September 6, 2005 10:17:41 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

On Tue, 6 Sep 2005 19:18:47 +0200, Oskar Wagner wrote:

>From the Douglas line I only know about DC10's being
> equipped with CWS. I still hear our MD11 pilots complaining about this
> missing goodie after transition from DC10 :-)

Not surprisingly, CWS is finally coming of age in GA a/c as well. The
Liberty XL2's new autopilot will feature CWS... Sweet! ;) 

Bill
Anonymous
September 6, 2005 10:17:42 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

On Tue, 6 Sep 2005 15:32:34 -0400, Marco Rispoli wrote:

> LOL... does this mean i just stumbled in the "tough guy" of the group?

Not at all... just someone who's been around for a very long time and is
well-respected, has established (and verified) bona-fides, and has provided
a wealth of interesting, accurate information over the year(s).

Bill
Anonymous
September 6, 2005 11:47:51 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

On Tue, 6 Sep 2005 19:07:41 +0100, GeoffC wrote:

> Still waiting in anticipation for Marco's reply :-)

Yeah....me too. ;-)

--

Marcel (SAG-21)
(Mmmmmm.....beer and doughnuts. - Homer Simpson)
September 7, 2005 1:27:31 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

>
> Every group has one... well, nice to meet you Oskar!
>
> can imagine all of you guys standing in a circle going "Fight! Fight!"
>
> hehe

LOL, not at all Marco :) 

Good thread, I always have problems with trim.
Anonymous
September 7, 2005 1:27:32 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Welcome, Marco. Oskar is not the tough guy -- we have other guys for
that. It's pretty obvious from your exchange, though, that he knows
more than you do about airplanes. No shame in that -- that was his job,
after all. (I dare say you're good at your job, too.) Can't say what he
was like in the cockpit, but on the forum he's been a real gentleman.
Search the archives and see -- if nothing else, you'll find a great
tutorial on how to land an airliner.

_________________________________________________________
Posted via the -Web to Usenet- forums at http://forums.simradar.com
Visit www.simradar.com and try our Flight Simulation Search Engine!
Anonymous
September 7, 2005 1:58:27 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

> LOL... does this mean i just stumbled in the "tough guy" of the group?

No, Dallas would probably qualify for this as he is completely 'unbeatable'
I qualify as the little guy who hangs around the edges...


sincerely,
Quilljar

http://www.quilljar.btinternet.co.uk/edart.html
Anonymous
September 7, 2005 1:58:28 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

___| reply |__________________________________________________________

I qualify as the little guy who hangs around the edges...


sincerely,
Quilljar

http://www.quilljar.btinternet.co.uk/edart.html

_____________________________________________________________________
He says, modestly. But check out that list of books and articles! At
long last, the meaning of "Quilljar" is revealed!

_________________________________________________________
Posted via the -Web to Usenet- forums at http://forums.simradar.com
Visit www.simradar.com and try our Flight Simulation Search Engine!
Anonymous
September 7, 2005 3:18:44 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Don't worry Marco, I'm not that picky! ;-)))) And no, I don't know
EVERYTHING ;-) Sometimes I really have to slap my forehead to put my brain
into high gear for long term memory access :-)))))
--
Oskar Wagner
(retired Captain)

Remember, in the great scheme of things, we're all small potatoes....

"Marco Rispoli" <marcorispoli@hotmail.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:BZlTe.11816$OT1.5487@fe09.lga...
> "GeoffC" <geoff_noise@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:8843e$431ddaf6$5409c830$19257@allthenewsgroups.com...
>> Oskar,
>>
>> Thanks for the feed back. I have also posted the question on the PMDG
>> site
>> because whenever I grab the yoke on my 747-400 the AP disengages which is
>> not how CWS works.
>>
>> Still waiting in anticipation for Marco's reply :-)
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Geoff
>>
>
> Sorry for the delay ... got stuck in meetings.
>
> LOL... does this mean i just stumbled in the "tough guy" of the group?
>
> Every group has one... well, nice to meet you Oskar!
>
> can imagine all of you guys standing in a circle going "Fight! Fight!"
>
> hehe
>
> --
> The Pilot Lounge Aviation Community and MessageBoard
> http://www.thepilotlounge.com
>
>
Anonymous
September 7, 2005 12:43:43 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Hi David Wilson-Okamura,

Not only that - Quilljar is a very talented photographer, and has many
other skills, too!

Quite an amazing man, IMHO.

A fairly unique individual! ( I just put that bit in to bait Quilljar )
:-)))

Regards,
John Ward
"David Wilson-Okamura" <David Wilson-Okamura@forums.simradar.com> wrote in
message news:1126045585.32503@forums.simradar.com...
>
> ___| reply |__________________________________________________________
>
> I qualify as the little guy who hangs around the edges...
>
>
> sincerely,
> Quilljar
>
> http://www.quilljar.btinternet.co.uk/edart.html
>
> _____________________________________________________________________
> He says, modestly. But check out that list of books and articles! At
> long last, the meaning of "Quilljar" is revealed!
>
> _________________________________________________________
> Posted via the -Web to Usenet- forums at http://forums.simradar.com
> Visit www.simradar.com and try our Flight Simulation Search Engine!
Anonymous
September 7, 2005 1:02:46 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Hi Quilljar,

Hmmmm - that raises one obvious question, mate: Why don't we see if we
can beat Dallas?? ( aka The Varmit, aka Danger Puppy, aka Dallasita, aka
.......)

Anyone up for the challenge? :-))

Regards,
John Ward
"Quilljar" <wykehill-flightsim@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:D fl3e3$h3v$1@nwrdmz01.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
>> LOL... does this mean i just stumbled in the "tough guy" of the group?
>
> No, Dallas would probably qualify for this as he is completely
> 'unbeatable'
> I qualify as the little guy who hangs around the edges...
>
>
> sincerely,
> Quilljar
>
> http://www.quilljar.btinternet.co.uk/edart.html
>
September 8, 2005 8:23:49 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Quilljar"
> LOL... does this mean i just stumbled in the "tough guy" of the group?
> No, Dallas would probably qualify for this as he is completely
'unbeatable'

I find it amazing you nominated me for this position... I wouldn't have put
me in the top 5. :-)

1) Dudley would be number 1.
2) Leaming doesn't take anything off of anybody.
3) Tie between Peter and our new nominee, Oskar.

Dallas
Anonymous
September 8, 2005 12:50:13 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

> I find it amazing you nominated me for this position... I wouldn't have
> put
> me in the top 5. :-)
>
> 1) Dudley would be number 1.
> 2) Leaming doesn't take anything off of anybody.
> 3) Tie between Peter and our new nominee, Oskar.
>
> Dallas

I nominated you as 'tough guy' not aviation expert, because I doubt if you
could be beaten in an argument :-)

Quilly
September 8, 2005 8:39:03 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Quilljar"
> I nominated you as 'tough guy' not aviation expert, because I doubt if you
> could be beaten in an argument :-)

Oh great... now everybody's gonna wanna argue with me.

:-)

Dallas
Anonymous
September 8, 2005 9:49:14 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Dallas wrote:
> "Quilljar"
>> I nominated you as 'tough guy' not aviation expert, because I doubt
>> if you could be beaten in an argument :-)
>
> Oh great... now everybody's gonna wanna argue with me.
>
> :-)
>
> Dallas

Yeah, and you know you love it :-)


--
sincerely,
Quilljar

http://www.quilljar.btinternet.co.uk/edart.html
Anonymous
September 9, 2005 4:22:27 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Oskar Wagner" <rengaw@swissonline.ch> wrote in message
news:D fl11o$b2m$1@news.hispeed.ch...
> Don't worry Marco, I'm not that picky! ;-)))) And no, I don't know
> EVERYTHING ;-) Sometimes I really have to slap my forehead to put my brain
> into high gear for long term memory access :-)))))
> --
> Oskar Wagner
> (retired Captain)
>
> Remember, in the great scheme of things, we're all small potatoes....
>

Oskar,

If I know I am wrong, I admit it.

I can see you know a lot, and (on top of that) you have class.

Sorry for my rude comments.

Marco

--
The Pilot Lounge Aviation Community and MessageBoard
http://www.thepilotlounge.com
Anonymous
September 9, 2005 10:28:16 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Hi Varmit,

I disagree with that!

Do you have any solid evidence to back up your claim?

Regards,
John Ward
"Dallas" <Cybnorm@spam_me_not.Hotmail.Com> wrote in message
news:HOZTe.7449$4P5.2023@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
> "Quilljar"
>> I nominated you as 'tough guy' not aviation expert, because I doubt if
>> you
>> could be beaten in an argument :-)
>
> Oh great... now everybody's gonna wanna argue with me.
>
> :-)
>
> Dallas
>
>
September 9, 2005 10:52:53 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Marco Rispoli"
> Oskar, If I know I am wrong, I admit it.
> I can see you know a lot, and (on top of that) you have class.


Apparently, so do you Marco.

:-)

Dallas
September 9, 2005 1:10:11 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

On Wed, 7 Sep 2005 09:02:46 +1000, "John Ward"
<johnrmward@optusnet.com.au> brought the following to our attention:

>Hi Quilljar,
>
> Hmmmm - that raises one obvious question, mate: Why don't we see if we
>can beat Dallas?? ( aka The Varmit, aka Danger Puppy, aka Dallasita, aka ......)
>
> Anyone up for the challenge? :-))

How do you propose to do that John? First let's look at the Stats:


http://groups.google.com/group/alt.games.microsoft.flig...

see in the right-side area.. the `top posters'. Likely you'll reply:
"post lots of spreadsheet charts and flight performance data." Some
would be most interested however many would yawn terribly!!

cheers,

-G

>Regards,
>John Ward
>"Quilljar" <wykehill-flightsim@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
>
>>> LOL... does this mean i just stumbled in the "tough guy" of the group?
>>
>> No, Dallas would probably qualify for this as he is completely 'unbeatable'
>> I qualify as the little guy who hangs around the edges...
>>
>>
>> sincerely,
>> Quilljar
>>
September 9, 2005 2:04:00 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

On Tue, 6 Sep 2005 18:17:40 +0200, "Oskar Wagner"
<rengaw@swissonline.ch> brought the following to our attention:

>"Marco Rispoli" <marcorispoli@hotmail.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
>
>> "Oskar Wagner" <rengaw@swissonline.ch> wrote in message
>>
>>
>>> Well, trimming is not intended to keep an A/C's altitude ;-) It's sole
>>> purpose is to achieve stable flight conditions and thus no pressure on
>>> whatever steering axis is concerned. For altitude holding indeed a
>>> (reliable) A/P is the only means.
>>
>> Well.. I have to disagree here. The best altitude holding device is the
>> Pilot. As pilot you are responsible for keeping the plane at the altitude
>> where it belongs. You as a pilot can be quite reliable if you are properly
>> motivated (not getting yelled at by ATC for example).
>
>Sorry, I don't want to go too much into a discussion about flying
>techniques. But to be straightforward: this is bullshit! (sorry again for
>this somewhat rude expression..) If you had ever tried to fly a jet manually
>for prolonged time and keep the altitude within +/- 30 ft (even at M.82 at
>FL350) then you would know what you are talking about. I do..... And don't
>tell me about responsabilities of a pilot. After a career of 25+ years in
>airline operation I think I should pretty well know...:-))
>
>> I was simplifying by the way ... you don't trim for altitude. You trim for speed.
>>
>> It's the altitude and power setting COMBINED that give you a constant altitude.
>
>Mhh, again wrong as long as it is for cruise altitude. You set a specific
>criuse power and keep the A/C level. The speed is resulting. And btw, flying
>manually at a precise altitude becomes even more a nuisance if you use
>Autothrottle which continuously chases speed.

Am a late-comer to this thread and catching up with all the
interesting discussion. As already stated I have no real flying
experience but wanted to reflect on two items above.

First.. If the engines are modelled correctly, and as stated by
experienced captain, one can set the cruise power (in FS) and
the plane will `run up' to speed. Its thrilling [to me] when with Sim
performs just like the FMs.. and the Boeing charts (Econ Cruise,
M0.8, M0.84) are tacked on the wall right here next to PC!!

Secondly.. the issue of speed chasing or `throttle hunting' is
confirmed by experienced captain.

So it's important to model the `engine set'.. i.e. TBLs 1502-1507 in
the AIR file accurately. Every day emails run back and forth across
the web with LOTS of technical discussion on how better to model the
engines. Inbox is swamped and hopelessly buried in Tech-notes. Implied
here is that `glider' portion of FDE is correct before-hand.

having fun as usual,

-Gregory

>>> Not quite correct. Trim would be way too slow to control the A/C. The servos
>>> usually work directly with the elevator and then trim will be consecutively
>>> used to reduce servo force to zero. Even the FS A/P works like that.
>>> Unfortunately there's a bad glitch in FS' A/P's as you can even operate the
>>> trim while A/P is on. I only know of ONE G/A A/C which would have allowed
>>> that, but never on "big iron". Ohh, and btw, you should ALWAYS trim to
>>> stable conditions before engaging the A/P. FS will mercifully forgive you
>>> but IRL you would scare your passengers as under normal conditions the A/C
>>> would jerk quite nicely... ;-)))
>>
>> Humm ... interesting. That doesn't match with what I know ... in 737s the AP
>> controls trim and the pilot controls the elevator. In fact in theory the
>> pilot can push the elevator down while the horizontal stabilizer is
>> travelling up. A 737 pilot told me that he usually "tunes up" the climb with
>> minimal elevator pressure while "Otto" (that's the way the call the AP)
>> takes care of trimming.
>
>No, it's just not true. If you would have a look at the yoke you would
>observe that the yoke is responding to the corrections and the trim will
>just run to ADJUST.
>
>> If you fight too much with the elevator Otto disengages but it allows you a
>> little bit of play first.
>
>Yes "Otto" (we called him George, different coutries, different names.... )
>will indeed disengage. The limiting device is a (electrical) current limiter
>on the servos. If you e.g. push on the yoke the A/C will start to descend.
>You will feel the servos pulling quite violently on the yoke and
>simultaneously the trim will run backwards as the servos try to correct for
>a climbing attitude. As you lock the yoke under your forward push the
>servo's will continue to try tu pull until they reach their operational
>limit. Then A/P will disengage and you will have a heck of a time to correct
>the mistrim! I did that quite a few times during acceptance testflights
>after heavy maintenance when I was operational test pilot in our airline. So
>believe me at least at that point. I know definitely what I'm talking of... :-)))
>
>> I can ask to confirm ... maybe the elevator is controlled by both the pilot
>> and the AP but that would be strange.
>>
>>> Well, at least ALL the FS G/A A/C (equipped with A/P) that I know are also
>>> equipped with ALT hold function. Did I miss some? ;-)
>>
>> Well yeah, you actually missed a bunch. On avsim you can download plenty of
>> AC with no autopilot at all ... Cessna 120, Cessna 140, 185 and there's
>> payware that doesn't have altitude hold either ... (the Carenado 182 RG IIRC).
>>
>I told you: FS G/A A/C equipped with A/P.... But I believe you that the
>Carenado 182 RG is without alt hold.
September 9, 2005 2:11:33 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

John Ward wrote:
> Hi Varmit,
>
> I disagree with that!
>
> Do you have any solid evidence to back up your claim?
>


Watch it JW, if he can't win with facts, he'll just wear ya down till ya
give up......
:-D
Anonymous
September 9, 2005 3:06:28 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

On Fri, 09 Sep 2005 09:10:11 -0400, Gregory wrote:

>> Hmmmm - that raises one obvious question, mate: Why don't we see if we
>>can beat Dallas?? ( aka The Varmit, aka Danger Puppy, aka Dallasita, aka ......)
>>
>> Anyone up for the challenge? :-))
>
> How do you propose to do that John? First let's look at the Stats:
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.games.microsoft.flig...
>
> see in the right-side area.. the `top posters'. Likely you'll reply:
> "post lots of spreadsheet charts and flight performance data." Some
> would be most interested however many would yawn terribly!!

OMG!

All time top posters
3678 n...@nospam.com
3537 n...@attbi.com <=== This is my OLD email address
2857 johnrmw...@optusnet.com.au
2680 n...@comcast.net <=== This is my NEW email address

Add both numbers together:

6217 !!!!!

<THUD!> Goodness, no WONDER my fingers are tired... ;) 

Bill
Anonymous
September 9, 2005 6:43:13 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Hi Marco Rispoli,

Hey, that takes class to make a post like yours! Good on you, mate. :-)

We're very lucky having Oskar participating here, and if there's
anything you want to know, or discuss - just bounce it off Oskar, he knows
plenty (whereas I know nothing )!

About the only thing I'm sure Oskar isn't sure about, is how his
daughter, and her friend, are going to go on their impending visit to
Australia!! Evil Grin :-)))

Regards,
John Ward

"Marco Rispoli" <marcorispoli@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:jW7Ue.36874$U63.978@fe12.lga...
> "Oskar Wagner" <rengaw@swissonline.ch> wrote in message
> news:D fl11o$b2m$1@news.hispeed.ch...
>> Don't worry Marco, I'm not that picky! ;-)))) And no, I don't know
>> EVERYTHING ;-) Sometimes I really have to slap my forehead to put my
>> brain
>> into high gear for long term memory access :-)))))
>> --
>> Oskar Wagner
>> (retired Captain)
>>
>> Remember, in the great scheme of things, we're all small potatoes....
>>
>
> Oskar,
>
> If I know I am wrong, I admit it.
>
> I can see you know a lot, and (on top of that) you have class.
>
> Sorry for my rude comments.
>
> Marco
>
> --
> The Pilot Lounge Aviation Community and MessageBoard
> http://www.thepilotlounge.com
>
>
September 9, 2005 6:43:14 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"John Ward"
> About the only thing I'm sure Oskar isn't sure about, is how his
> daughter, and her friend, are going to go on their impending visit to
> Australia!! Evil Grin :-)))

JayDub.. you stay away from those girls...

:-)

Dallas
Anonymous
September 9, 2005 6:43:15 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Hmmm, if I would publish pictures (they both are photomodel style....!!) my
mailbox would be flooded by our australian mates.. :-))))) (evil grin too)
Actually my only concern is how to get those hooks onto their feet so that
they can walk downunder....
--
Oskar Wagner
(retired Captain)

Remember, in the great scheme of things, we're all small potatoes....

"Dallas" <Cybnorm@spam_me_not.Hotmail.Com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:9laUe.7724$4P5.3433@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
> "John Ward"
>> About the only thing I'm sure Oskar isn't sure about, is how his
>> daughter, and her friend, are going to go on their impending visit to
>> Australia!! Evil Grin :-)))
>
> JayDub.. you stay away from those girls...
>
> :-)
>
> Dallas
>
>
Anonymous
September 9, 2005 8:46:47 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Well Gregory, it's half the game if power output is modeled correctly. The
second half - equally important - is whether A/C drag curve is modeled
properly. If those two correlate then you will have a realsitic power/speed
relation. To be honest I never tried that as in cruise I always use A/T. I
personally don't rely on N1 or EPR settings of the default FS A/C.
Nevertheless it would be interesting to do a test pattern to verify PWR/N1
relation but I'm afraid it would be quite time consuming ;-)
--
Oskar Wagner
(retired Captain)

Remember, in the great scheme of things, we're all small potatoes....

"Gregory" <flightsim.maps@bkwds.comcast.net> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:5k23i1dfiffp6obughtootr1ibdq551cud@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 6 Sep 2005 18:17:40 +0200, "Oskar Wagner"
> <rengaw@swissonline.ch> brought the following to our attention:
>
>>"Marco Rispoli" <marcorispoli@hotmail.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
>>
>>> "Oskar Wagner" <rengaw@swissonline.ch> wrote in message
>>>
>>>
>>>> Well, trimming is not intended to keep an A/C's altitude ;-) It's sole
>>>> purpose is to achieve stable flight conditions and thus no pressure on
>>>> whatever steering axis is concerned. For altitude holding indeed a
>>>> (reliable) A/P is the only means.
>>>
>>> Well.. I have to disagree here. The best altitude holding device is the
>>> Pilot. As pilot you are responsible for keeping the plane at the
>>> altitude
>>> where it belongs. You as a pilot can be quite reliable if you are
>>> properly
>>> motivated (not getting yelled at by ATC for example).
>>
>>Sorry, I don't want to go too much into a discussion about flying
>>techniques. But to be straightforward: this is bullshit! (sorry again for
>>this somewhat rude expression..) If you had ever tried to fly a jet
>>manually
>>for prolonged time and keep the altitude within +/- 30 ft (even at M.82 at
>>FL350) then you would know what you are talking about. I do..... And don't
>>tell me about responsabilities of a pilot. After a career of 25+ years in
>>airline operation I think I should pretty well know...:-))
>>
>>> I was simplifying by the way ... you don't trim for altitude. You trim
>>> for speed.
>>>
>>> It's the altitude and power setting COMBINED that give you a constant
>>> altitude.
>>
>>Mhh, again wrong as long as it is for cruise altitude. You set a specific
>>criuse power and keep the A/C level. The speed is resulting. And btw,
>>flying
>>manually at a precise altitude becomes even more a nuisance if you use
>>Autothrottle which continuously chases speed.
>
> Am a late-comer to this thread and catching up with all the
> interesting discussion. As already stated I have no real flying
> experience but wanted to reflect on two items above.
>
> First.. If the engines are modelled correctly, and as stated by
> experienced captain, one can set the cruise power (in FS) and
> the plane will `run up' to speed. Its thrilling [to me] when with Sim
> performs just like the FMs.. and the Boeing charts (Econ Cruise,
> M0.8, M0.84) are tacked on the wall right here next to PC!!
>
> Secondly.. the issue of speed chasing or `throttle hunting' is
> confirmed by experienced captain.
>
> So it's important to model the `engine set'.. i.e. TBLs 1502-1507 in
> the AIR file accurately. Every day emails run back and forth across
> the web with LOTS of technical discussion on how better to model the
> engines. Inbox is swamped and hopelessly buried in Tech-notes. Implied
> here is that `glider' portion of FDE is correct before-hand.
>
> having fun as usual,
>
> -Gregory
>
>>>> Not quite correct. Trim would be way too slow to control the A/C. The
>>>> servos
>>>> usually work directly with the elevator and then trim will be
>>>> consecutively
>>>> used to reduce servo force to zero. Even the FS A/P works like that.
>>>> Unfortunately there's a bad glitch in FS' A/P's as you can even operate
>>>> the
>>>> trim while A/P is on. I only know of ONE G/A A/C which would have
>>>> allowed
>>>> that, but never on "big iron". Ohh, and btw, you should ALWAYS trim to
>>>> stable conditions before engaging the A/P. FS will mercifully forgive
>>>> you
>>>> but IRL you would scare your passengers as under normal conditions the
>>>> A/C
>>>> would jerk quite nicely... ;-)))
>>>
>>> Humm ... interesting. That doesn't match with what I know ... in 737s
>>> the AP
>>> controls trim and the pilot controls the elevator. In fact in theory the
>>> pilot can push the elevator down while the horizontal stabilizer is
>>> travelling up. A 737 pilot told me that he usually "tunes up" the climb
>>> with
>>> minimal elevator pressure while "Otto" (that's the way the call the AP)
>>> takes care of trimming.
>>
>>No, it's just not true. If you would have a look at the yoke you would
>>observe that the yoke is responding to the corrections and the trim will
>>just run to ADJUST.
>>
>>> If you fight too much with the elevator Otto disengages but it allows
>>> you a
>>> little bit of play first.
>>
>>Yes "Otto" (we called him George, different coutries, different
>>names.... )
>>will indeed disengage. The limiting device is a (electrical) current
>>limiter
>>on the servos. If you e.g. push on the yoke the A/C will start to descend.
>>You will feel the servos pulling quite violently on the yoke and
>>simultaneously the trim will run backwards as the servos try to correct
>>for
>>a climbing attitude. As you lock the yoke under your forward push the
>>servo's will continue to try tu pull until they reach their operational
>>limit. Then A/P will disengage and you will have a heck of a time to
>>correct
>>the mistrim! I did that quite a few times during acceptance testflights
>>after heavy maintenance when I was operational test pilot in our airline.
>>So
>>believe me at least at that point. I know definitely what I'm talking
>>of... :-)))
>>
>>> I can ask to confirm ... maybe the elevator is controlled by both the
>>> pilot
>>> and the AP but that would be strange.
>>>
>>>> Well, at least ALL the FS G/A A/C (equipped with A/P) that I know are
>>>> also
>>>> equipped with ALT hold function. Did I miss some? ;-)
>>>
>>> Well yeah, you actually missed a bunch. On avsim you can download plenty
>>> of
>>> AC with no autopilot at all ... Cessna 120, Cessna 140, 185 and there's
>>> payware that doesn't have altitude hold either ... (the Carenado 182 RG
>>> IIRC).
>>>
>>I told you: FS G/A A/C equipped with A/P.... But I believe you that the
>>Carenado 182 RG is without alt hold.
>
Anonymous
September 10, 2005 2:57:36 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Hi Oskar,

I could give them lessons!!

No, really, it'd be no trouble at all, mate. :-))

Regards,
John Ward
"Oskar Wagner" <rengaw@swissonline.ch> wrote in message
news:D frqi6$m1p$1@news.hispeed.ch...
> Hmmm, if I would publish pictures (they both are photomodel style....!!)
> my mailbox would be flooded by our australian mates.. :-))))) (evil grin
> too)
> Actually my only concern is how to get those hooks onto their feet so that
> they can walk downunder....
> --
> Oskar Wagner
> (retired Captain)
>
> Remember, in the great scheme of things, we're all small potatoes....
>
> "Dallas" <Cybnorm@spam_me_not.Hotmail.Com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> news:9laUe.7724$4P5.3433@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>>
>> "John Ward"
>>> About the only thing I'm sure Oskar isn't sure about, is how his
>>> daughter, and her friend, are going to go on their impending visit to
>>> Australia!! Evil Grin :-)))
>>
>> JayDub.. you stay away from those girls...
>>
>> :-)
>>
>> Dallas
>>
>>
>
>
Anonymous
September 10, 2005 3:00:02 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Hi Bill,

And that's even with all your time out!

I notice The Varmit didn't make either list! :-)

Regards,
John Ward
"Bill Leaming" <n4gix@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:1i9ivv7ugjuz2.11vo8pqui8s1b$.dlg@40tude.net...
> On Fri, 09 Sep 2005 09:10:11 -0400, Gregory wrote:
>
>>> Hmmmm - that raises one obvious question, mate: Why don't we see if
>>> we
>>>can beat Dallas?? ( aka The Varmit, aka Danger Puppy, aka Dallasita, aka
>>>......)
>>>
>>> Anyone up for the challenge? :-))
>>
>> How do you propose to do that John? First let's look at the Stats:
>>
>> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.games.microsoft.flig...
>>
>> see in the right-side area.. the `top posters'. Likely you'll reply:
>> "post lots of spreadsheet charts and flight performance data." Some
>> would be most interested however many would yawn terribly!!
>
> OMG!
>
> All time top posters
> 3678 n...@nospam.com
> 3537 n...@attbi.com <=== This is my OLD email address
> 2857 johnrmw...@optusnet.com.au
> 2680 n...@comcast.net <=== This is my NEW email address
>
> Add both numbers together:
>
> 6217 !!!!!
>
> <THUD!> Goodness, no WONDER my fingers are tired... ;) 
>
> Bill
Anonymous
September 10, 2005 3:01:51 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Hi CRaSH,

Yeah, good point, mate - maybe I'd better let the idea go.........or
not...... :-)

Regards,
John Ward
"CRaSH" <sorry@aint-here.spam.com> wrote in message
news:D ChUe.212386$E95.201578@fed1read01...
> John Ward wrote:
>> Hi Varmit,
>>
>> I disagree with that!
>>
>> Do you have any solid evidence to back up your claim?
>>
>
>
> Watch it JW, if he can't win with facts, he'll just wear ya down till ya
> give up......
> :-D
>
Anonymous
September 10, 2005 10:01:28 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

On Sat, 10 Sep 2005 11:00:02 +1000, John Ward wrote:
> And that's even with all your time out!
>
> I notice The Varmit didn't make either list! :-)

I guess that means I qualify for the V^4* Award for the last few years...

*Verbose Vendor (of) Vacuuous Verbiage

Bill
Anonymous
September 11, 2005 1:48:33 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Verily, if you say so, mate. :-)

JW
"Bill Leaming" <n4gix@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:108yka9pyu7eu.nf4rem8m64a4.dlg@40tude.net...
> On Sat, 10 Sep 2005 11:00:02 +1000, John Ward wrote:
>> And that's even with all your time out!
>>
>> I notice The Varmit didn't make either list! :-)
>
> I guess that means I qualify for the V^4* Award for the last few years...
>
> *Verbose Vendor (of) Vacuuous Verbiage
>
> Bill
!