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June 16, 2006 4:05:08 PM

Deleted all info, some people are 2 biased on certain topics, others are just pathetic morons that like to bash other.





PLEASE CLOSE/LOCK THIS TOPIC

More about : close lock topic

June 16, 2006 4:49:27 PM

I am planning on sticking with XP when Vista comes out, I don't see any reason to change over to it. Of course this is comming from a person who didn't switch from 98se until 2 years ago. (Just because I really liked win98. Had to switch because of hardware.)
June 16, 2006 5:09:26 PM

Quote:
Had to switch because of hardware.)


hmm i think ure going to have to switch to vista, -becuase of hardware

-DX10
-64 bit computing
-whole other stuff to mention


i plan to move to vista , when the time is right





:wink:
Related resources
June 16, 2006 5:18:00 PM

d/l beta 2 as i type.


ill let u guys know how my Mobility X300 preforms when i get vista installed.
June 16, 2006 5:18:42 PM

LOL vista is still in beta stages, and your compairing it to a fully developed XP.

wow someone is off there meds, even windows XP x64 edition isnt 100% ready for games.

Its NOT microsofts falt on the games front, its the drivers that need to be optimized.

*.* I never thought there would be a day when i defended microsoft.... YIKES *.*
June 16, 2006 5:25:55 PM

Man not another one complaining about bugs and performance in software that is supposed to be for TESTING prurposes ONLY. why don't you do us all a favor and stay off these forms until you can figure out somthing intellegent to say or talk about.
June 16, 2006 5:32:58 PM

Seriously. You're comparing XP, a fully developed product with mature drivers for every device, to a completely beta product with no developed drivers.

Quick your bitching and go away until the OS is actually out and ready. I'm not saying I like Vista that much at this point, but I'm not going to complete my judgement on it until its actually ready and in stores.

Retard + beta software = whiny bitch on forums
June 16, 2006 5:40:35 PM

I agree. In addition to XP Pro (32-bit) and Ubuntu x-64 I'll make space for Vista Beta 2. See how it performs on my 7900 GT and 2 GB of RAM (once I buy my new machine, of course) - and I'll be testing with 3DMark, Guild Wars, Doom 3, FEAR, WoW, UT2004, FarCry, etc.
June 16, 2006 5:43:08 PM

Oh, I am sure I will, but not any time soon. I am sure for the next 2 years I will still be with XP. Seeing as how I am a gamer I will probably switch when it is time to upgrade again. I go around every two years give or take a few months.
June 16, 2006 5:46:08 PM

Quote:
Seriously. You're comparing XP, a fully developed product with mature drivers for every device, to a completely beta product with no developed drivers.

Quick your bitching and go away until the OS is actually out and ready. I'm not saying I like Vista that much at this point, but I'm not going to complete my judgement on it until its actually ready and in stores.

Retard + beta software = whiny bitch on forums


Actually, he does have a point. Micro$oft is planning on dropping direct OpenGL support completely from Vista in an effort to make Direct X more popular. It will only support OpenGL by remapping function calls to DirectX. Additionally, I think Vista will completely drop support from OpenGL extensions. What this means is that an application written in OpenGL will either not run or will run at severely reduced frame rates.

What you need to do to determine if this is an OpenGL problem or due to the fact that it is a beta is to run only Direct X benchmarks.

I do agree that with your last comment though.
June 16, 2006 5:57:50 PM

:D 
June 16, 2006 6:03:20 PM

Guess I should have put, "I don't see any reason to change over to it yet."
June 16, 2006 6:36:17 PM

Microsoft had better keep OpenGL support. If it's true that they'll drop it, I may drop Windows completely.

What will they get rid of next? GTK? JRE/SDK? The iPod????

Heaven forbid something works that isn't Microsoft-made.
June 16, 2006 6:36:32 PM

I will wait for service pack 1, maybe even two before I will upgrade. Give them time to work a few bugs out.

Can you imagine installing windows with out a SP?
June 16, 2006 6:37:32 PM

Considering most professional CAD and 3D design software uses OpenGL, I highly doubt Microsoft will have poor support for it. Would alienate them from a huge market and force them over to their competitor Apple.

The point is the OS is not yet even close to ready for gaming benchmarks and he's complaining about a drop in frames. There will most likely be a performance hit on DX9 code since it will be emulated through DX10. But the idea is that machines are getting faster and can handle it.

Besides even in the worst case you're still talking about completely playable framerates except for B&W2 but its not playable on the XP machine either. And without 4x AA they got barely higher framerates on Vista than XP.
June 16, 2006 6:44:27 PM

There is no reason for switching yet honestly I am not happy with this beta version and I am running this on a PC that is less then a week old so I would think it would utilise atleast the potention of what I have .. I am sticking with XP until they show me some higher fps in games and real 64bit advantages other then browser upgrades for faster porn surfin...
June 16, 2006 6:50:21 PM

I very rarely agree with any of your post but that made me laugh sooo hard.

Quote:
Retard + beta software = whiny bitch on forums


definitely post of the day :trophy:
June 16, 2006 7:08:45 PM

are u calling me a retard? i would say ur one, im comparing vistas BETA as i said with xin xp info , and to be honest i dotn c anytthing special about vista i think honestly that the hupe about it its way overrated, and buying a new os just because one can have a different visual look of the icons, with some aditional things which can be obtained for free( shareware, freeware) is RETARDED, to be honest i c no point in upgrading to vista, im shoor there will be a way to get dx10 performance on xp somehow (or atleast quite close) i posted the information for those who would like to c hows vista doing, not everyone has the beta installed , and im shoor there are those who would like to know that so far as gaming goes, booting the pc, and other details, vbista is far behind xp, and honestly if i would c any beter results in the beta opposed to xp i would be happy about it, but seeing that its falling behind so mutch even thou it has about waht 4/5 months to be released, i doubt that vista in itselfe (whithout any service packs, and updates) will be such a great product.
June 16, 2006 7:25:19 PM

Quote:
are u calling me a retard? i would say ur one, im comparing vistas BETA as i said with xin xp info , and to be honest i dotn c anytthing special about vista i think honestly that the hupe about it its way overrated, and buying a new os just because one can have a different visual look of the icons, with some aditional things which can be obtained for free( shareware, freeware) is RETARDED, to be honest i c no point in upgrading to vista, im shoor there will be a way to get dx10 performance on xp somehow (or atleast quite close) i posted the information for those who would like to c hows vista doing, not everyone has the beta installed , and im shoor there are those who would like to know that so far as gaming goes, booting the pc, and other details, vbista is far behind xp, and honestly if i would c any beter results in the beta opposed to xp i would be happy about it, but seeing that its falling behind so mutch even thou it has about waht 4/5 months to be released, i doubt that vista in itselfe (whithout any service packs, and updates) will be such a great product.


seriosly dude who cares, if your a hardcore gamer then you should know you never use any software that is beta or alpha becuase you will know there are lots of bugs and defenetly no performance. And you compareing it with XP? how can you compare and unfinished product with a product that has been out for 5 years!. so stop whining
June 16, 2006 7:35:57 PM

Quote:
I very rarely agree with any of your post but that made me laugh sooo hard.

Retard + beta software = whiny bitch on forums


definitely post of the day :trophy:


i 2nd that
June 16, 2006 7:54:21 PM

Quote:
Considering most professional CAD and 3D design software uses OpenGL, I highly doubt Microsoft will have poor support for it. Would alienate them from a huge market and force them over to their competitor Apple.


The point is, is that is exactly what Microsoft intends to do with Vista (ie drop support for OpenGL). That comes straight from Microsoft.

I agree with everybody else, that is is useless to complain about an operating system that is still in Beta. There will be plenty of time to complain about it when it comes out . . . all the way until they have a SP2 for it :D  :D  :D 

hball
June 16, 2006 8:29:46 PM

Quote:
Considering most professional CAD and 3D design software uses OpenGL, I highly doubt Microsoft will have poor support for it. Would alienate them from a huge market and force them over to their competitor Apple.


The point is, is that is exactly what Microsoft intends to do with Vista (ie drop support for OpenGL). That comes straight from Microsoft.

I agree with everybody else, that is is useless to complain about an operating system that is still in Beta. There will be plenty of time to complain about it when it comes out . . . all the way until they have a SP2 for it :D  :D  :D 

hball

Hmm first ATI processor in Xbox now microsoft is getting rid of opengl... nvidia's most prised possesion.
Looks to me like ATI made a deal with the devil.
June 16, 2006 8:30:28 PM

Quote:
Considering most professional CAD and 3D design software uses OpenGL, I highly doubt Microsoft will have poor support for it. Would alienate them from a huge market and force them over to their competitor Apple.


Here is a quote from the article in Tom's Hardware:

Article

Quote:
We are still very concerned about the future security of OpenGL products, in conjunction with the upcoming operating system Windows Vista. Microsoft made the political decision to no longer directly support the OpenGL interface - Vista only maps the OpenGL functions using a DirectX emulator, which could mean a considerable loss in performance. Moreover, the range of functions is restricted to OpenGL 1.4, while today's standard is already 2.0, and manufacturer-specific extensions will no longer be taken into account. Even if ATi and Nvidia were to kowtow to the pressure from Microsoft, it is not exactly useful to them unless the developers of professional applications play along.

June 16, 2006 8:40:08 PM

Quote:
The point is, is that is exactly what Microsoft intends to do with Vista (ie drop support for OpenGL). That comes straight from Microsoft.
From the article linked to in the first post:
Quote:
It's also worth noting that with our OpenGL title, Doom 3, we did not encounter any issues other than the normal performance slowdown. There had been some concern earlier about how using a full OpenGL client driver will force Vista to disable the desktop compositing engine since OpenGL takes full control of the GPU, and that GPU makers may switch to a slower OpenGL wrapper for Direct3D to keep the compositing engine working. While firing up Doom 3 did indeed disable the DCE, it's not a problem since Doom 3 is a full screen game that doesn't even normally allow Alt+Tabbing. OpenGL engines may not be as popular as they once were (largely in part to the slower adoption of the Doom 3 engine), but between the gaming market and the professional workstation market, both of which desire a full-performance OpenGL implementation, it doesn't seem like OpenGL is going to suffer on Vista as much as earlier feared.
So it seems to me that it is up to the GPU makers to make the OpenGL decisions and write the drivers. Microsoft themselves may not support OpenGL, as is evident by the lack of an OpenGL compositing engine, but that doesn't mean they are stopping anyone from writing drivers that understand OGL and can run such programs. I don't know what the GPU vendors will do when it comes to windowed OpenGL apps that require maximum speed, but I also don't personally care too much. Anything I run that is both OpenGL and requires speed is full screen anyway.

Finally, as you pointed out it is a beta, and so are the drivers for it. Especially the x64 drivers. It's going to take some serious work out of the ATI and Nvidia driver teams to significantly improve performance.
June 16, 2006 8:43:54 PM

Yes and that was before. Since the February CTP of Vista, OpenGL is now able to run without going through D3D. The only thing is that it will not be able to use the Aeroglass effects for programs run in windowed mode. This does not effect games unless they can be run in windowed mode and even then, who gives a crap.

Proof:

http://www.mcadonline.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=149&Itemid=73

http://blogs.msdn.com/kamvedbrat/archive/2006/02/22/537624.aspx

http://www.gamedev.net/columns/events/gdc2006/article.asp?id=233


No actual information here just several references to the fact itself.
http://www.opengl.org/news/categories/C1/
June 16, 2006 8:54:27 PM

Quote:
are u calling me a retard? i would say ur one, im comparing vistas BETA as i said with xin xp info , and to be honest i dotn c anytthing special about vista i think honestly that the hupe about it its way overrated, and buying a new os just because one can have a different visual look of the icons, with some aditional things which can be obtained for free( shareware, freeware) is RETARDED, to be honest i c no point in upgrading to vista, im shoor there will be a way to get dx10 performance on xp somehow (or atleast quite close) i posted the information for those who would like to c hows vista doing, not everyone has the beta installed , and im shoor there are those who would like to know that so far as gaming goes, booting the pc, and other details, vbista is far behind xp, and honestly if i would c any beter results in the beta opposed to xp i would be happy about it, but seeing that its falling behind so mutch even thou it has about waht 4/5 months to be released, i doubt that vista in itselfe (whithout any service packs, and updates) will be such a great product.


Learn grammar and I might take you seriously. Go to Penny Arcade and read their comics on Mr. Period.

And your own statement that you are comparing Vistas Beta with XP makes you look stupid since one does not compare a beta product with a fully released and mature product. Do you play beta games and determine how well the final game is going run and look based on what you see? No.

Yes. Vista is going to consume vastly more resources and disk space than XP. I'm not happy about it either. But it does have several improvements. Multiple users are actually decently implemented, security in IE is tightened, and DX10 will allow for better usage of the available hardware than DX9. Plus the media center functionality is integrated into the OS which is also nice. And the fact is that its still a beta so the disk space requirements and the memory usage probably will go down a bit since theres a lot of debug code running in there.

And keep hoping that DX10 will be on XP. Its not going to be. Its Microsoft.
June 16, 2006 9:20:02 PM

this isnt aimed at anyone, but wont the DX10 vid cards fill that void and fix the problem of the drop in fps?

it makes sense to me to see a drop in FPS when comparing win XP and a DX9 card to a Beta Version and a non dx10 card.
June 16, 2006 11:27:13 PM

You can run DX9 on Vista. Just run the latest December DX9.0c installer and install it.

The issue is more that Vista increases system load from all the crap running on it. A lot of that will still be there once Vista's released but a good amount of it is also just debug code to detect problems and report back to Microsoft so they can fix it.

With a DX10 card, its going to be emulating DX9 through DX10 so there might be a performance hit but the cards should be fast enough to make up for it. With OpenGL there shouldn't be any performance hit, except from extra system load, as long as its implemented properly.
June 16, 2006 11:52:15 PM

I'm sure if you took the time to turn off all the aeroglass and unnecessary services vista would run much better. Lets hope.
June 17, 2006 1:44:22 AM

Quote:
Hmm first ATI processor in Xbox now microsoft is getting rid of opengl... nvidia's most prised possesion.
Looks to me like ATI made a deal with the devil.


Good point. nVidia's OpenGL advantage is what keeps it overpowering ATI (in general) in games based on the Quake/Unreal engine.

Now, it would have been a scarier coincidence if instead of PowerPC CPUs in the 360 there were Intel cores - think about overheating issues then. They'd be unusable.
June 17, 2006 3:44:50 AM

In that case it could be a game system and a toaster in one unit.
June 17, 2006 8:18:08 AM

Quote:
d/l beta 2 as i type.


ill let u guys know how my Mobility X300 preforms when i get vista installed.

The Xpress 200 chipset outperforms the X300. Sad, I know.
June 17, 2006 4:24:35 PM

ATI...shudder...

Good cards, usually, but they hate the penguin. DO YOU HATE THE PENGUIN????!!!!?!?!?

Ok, I'm done.
June 17, 2006 4:53:45 PM

lol yea thats rite.......since the vista beta dosnt perform great, lets all jus stay on xp and forget about it, we dont even need to test the retail release or the drivers for vista, if the beta is bad everything is ruined..........

honestly ur a moron, if the performance of the retail versions of the os and drivers sucks u can bitch, but not now
June 17, 2006 5:19:52 PM

Quote:

With a DX10 card, its going to be emulating DX9 through DX10 so there might be a performance hit but the cards should be fast enough to make up for it. With OpenGL there shouldn't be any performance hit, except from extra system load, as long as its implemented properly.


DX10 cards just have additional hardware features to offer more programmability. There is no emulation going on. It's up to the software and drivers to map Direct X 9.0 functionality to Direct X 10.0.
June 17, 2006 5:23:48 PM

Quote:
Had to switch because of hardware.)


hmm i think ure going to have to switch to vista, -becuase of hardware

-DX10
-64 bit computing
-whole other stuff to mention


i plan to move to vista , when the time is right.

I beg to differ.

(1) DX10 - this is software related and actually nothing to do with hardware. Yes, cards can provide software driver support for direct x 10, but this wont change the hardware itself, just the driver for windows.

(2) 64 bit computing - Let me see, just about every other OS in the world also supports 64bit. You certainly don't need windows to get 64 bit. Try linux instead.

(3) whole other stuff to mention - Unless you are a die hard windows fan, there isn't really anything interesting in vista. It's just some new eye candy with the same old kernel.

If you really want to stick with windows, stay with XP. It's faster and more mature (better drivers etc). However if you are looking for an upgrade path for XP, you would do just as well to take a look at something like ubuntu linux.
June 17, 2006 6:02:53 PM

Quote:

I beg to differ.

(1) DX10 - this is software related and actually nothing to do with hardware. Yes, cards can provide software driver support for direct x 10, but this wont change the hardware itself, just the driver for windows.

(2) 64 bit computing - Let me see, just about every other OS in the world also supports 64bit. You certainly don't need windows to get 64 bit. Try linux instead.

(3) whole other stuff to mention - Unless you are a die hard windows fan, there isn't really anything interesting in vista. It's just some new eye candy with the same old kernel.

If you really want to stick with windows, stay with XP. It's faster and more mature (better drivers etc). However if you are looking for an upgrade path for XP, you would do just as well to take a look at something like ubuntu linux.


I beg to differ with your last statement. If you have alot invested in windows software, switching to linux would be the worst switch you can make. Even with windows elimulators for linux, they don't offer the same speed. The best bet is 64-bit windows, but even there you have driver and software issues in some cases.
June 17, 2006 6:23:58 PM

Quote:

I beg to differ.

(1) DX10 - this is software related and actually nothing to do with hardware. Yes, cards can provide software driver support for direct x 10, but this wont change the hardware itself, just the driver for windows.

(2) 64 bit computing - Let me see, just about every other OS in the world also supports 64bit. You certainly don't need windows to get 64 bit. Try linux instead.

(3) whole other stuff to mention - Unless you are a die hard windows fan, there isn't really anything interesting in vista. It's just some new eye candy with the same old kernel.

If you really want to stick with windows, stay with XP. It's faster and more mature (better drivers etc). However if you are looking for an upgrade path for XP, you would do just as well to take a look at something like ubuntu linux.


I beg to differ with your last statement. If you have alot invested in windows software, switching to linux would be the worst switch you can make. Even with windows elimulators for linux, they don't offer the same speed. The best bet is 64-bit windows, but even there you have driver and software issues in some cases.

That depends what software you are talking about. If it's office/productivity software, then most of the popular ones run under wine. Wine isn't an emulator, it's an implementation of the win32 api ontop of linux, mapping windows functions to native linux ones. In some cases it can actually run faster than windows.

For most other software you can use xen/vmware. With dual core hardware accelerated virtualization on it's way to most peoples system, it should run almost as fast as native.
June 17, 2006 10:18:48 PM

Gaming isnt bad at all on vista.


I have an MX440 AGP along with vista it ran CSS perfectly fine
June 17, 2006 11:43:02 PM

Quote:
There is no reason for switching yet honestly I am not happy with this beta version and I am running this on a PC that is less then a week old so I would think it would utilise atleast the potention of what I have .. I am sticking with XP until they show me some higher fps in games and real 64bit advantages other then browser upgrades for faster porn surfin...


But let's be serious for a minute, do most people actually use a computer for anything other than porn surfing? I submit that they do not. 64-bit RULES!
June 18, 2006 12:32:50 AM

Quote:
i am wondering how linux is doing these days,do you still need to learn to program in order to have the functionality of windows and mac os's?


If by "program" you mean use the command line, yes.
June 18, 2006 12:42:32 AM

Vista will never be as fast as XP if the hardware is equal. XP was never as fast as Win 98 SE, however in time there was no support for 9x. It will be the same for Vista.

Also XP64 is slower then regular XP though only by a small amount.

As for Xp dropping Open GL they also tried to drop AVI support back in the day and found themselves loosing market share. I suspect that it will be the same for Open GL.

Microsoft released the beta to the public just like a drug pusher, in the hopes that you will get addicted to it, and get some cheap testers. I think it 's fair to make comparisons with the understanding that it's not a finished product. Microsoft would encourage this as well and while I would expect improvements don't expect it to be much faster.
June 18, 2006 1:05:26 AM

God help the n00b that d/ls software like the Vista beta and actually gives feedback. Feedback that just makes an O/S worse.

Play around with your new toy, but please don't report anything back - then the rest of us will get a better O/S for the future.
June 18, 2006 1:15:37 AM

Quote:
LOL vista is still in beta stages, and your compairing it to a fully developed XP.

wow someone is off there meds, even windows XP x64 edition isnt 100% ready for games.

Its NOT microsofts falt on the games front, its the drivers that need to be optimized.

*.* I never thought there would be a day when i defended microsoft.... YIKES *.*


il second that
June 18, 2006 1:24:27 AM

whats with all the bashing? to be honest i doubt that vista will have mutch more to offer than xp (expect maby the eye candy (which i think is useless...thats my opinion), "more" secure ie...maby, it depends all on the "more secure" part :wink: , on dx10 might be quite a step up, but im shoor that the new dx9l(or d) or whatever it is planned to be called will be also quite a bit of an improvement over the dx wer using nowedays, and to be honest i have had quite a bit of experience with beta softwware, and so far i have to say that usually when the betas were bugged, and had some issues in general they honestly didnt change mutch for the releases (ok some major problems were ususally resulved...but still others did persist)... and i think that atleast 2 sp's or other updates will be needed to achieve the full compatibility/performance/and other important aspects that a "beter" os should have. But till then i will stick with xp, and wait and c :wink:
June 18, 2006 2:44:40 AM

Quote:
whats with all the bashing? to be honest i doubt that vista will have mutch more to offer than xp (expect maby the eye candy (which i think is useless...thats my opinion), "more" secure ie...maby, it depends all on the "more secure" part :wink: , on dx10 might be quite a step up, but im shoor that the new dx9l(or d) or whatever it is planned to be called will be also quite a bit of an improvement over the dx wer using nowedays, and to be honest i have had quite a bit of experience with beta softwware, and so far i have to say that usually when the betas were bugged, and had some issues in general they honestly didnt change mutch for the releases (ok some major problems were ususally resulved...but still others did persist)... and i think that atleast 2 sp's or other updates will be needed to achieve the full compatibility/performance/and other important aspects that a "beter" os should have. But till then i will stick with xp, and wait and c :wink:



you are a dumbass.




anyways, vista is fine i d/l it and it runs perfect games run perfect although it doesnt support really old games, i didnt expect it to w/o a patch
June 18, 2006 2:51:20 AM

don't be so sure...
June 18, 2006 2:55:57 AM

Wikipedia Vista info


Other benefits of upgrading to Vista will be a more widespread push to implement IPv6 since it is enabled by default (I know it is included in XP but few bother to enables it). Vista also is updating it its permissions so things just don't go installing without asking. According to Toms Hardware 500 hour test run of Vista, if the computer gets infected with malware, fixing it should be as easy as deleting the infected account and making a new one (I'll believe it when I see it). Also if SuperFetch, ReadyBoost, and ReadyDrive work as well as they say, Vista should be an incredibly responsive OS when using hybrid hard drives and flash memory. With all of Microsoft's previous OS sucking at security I think it is safe to bet their main focus is locking down security first then worrying about getting the FPS up in games later. :wink:
June 18, 2006 3:53:10 AM

Oh trust me it asks you before it does ANYTHING. You want to delete a file on an Administrator account (not THE Administrator account), you have to confirm it. You want to open the task manager, you have to confirm it. You want to open the registry, you have to confirm it. Nearly everything takes two clicks.

But yes user accounts are vastly improved over XP. You can actually run as a Standard User now (the new Limited account but it has more permissions which should eliminate a lot of the problems of running on a Limited account). If you're running on a Standard account in Vista, you can do pretty much anything. And anything you can't do, you are prompted to enter the admin password to let you do it. So no more switching between accounts to do anything. So you have the security of not having permissions to change major settings unrestricted (more secure) but the flexibility to change them when you want to.
!