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Wait for DX10 cards or get X1900XT

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June 21, 2006 11:34:22 PM

I am planning to build right after conroe comes out. Should I purchase an X1900XT to last me a year or so until DX10 get straightened out or should i use my x700 (plays almost all games on high or highest) and then get a DX10 right when they come out in the fall?

Also which chipset would you recommend for my mobo do you guys recommend (ati 3200 new version, nvidia 590, or new intel)?
June 21, 2006 11:52:35 PM

I would go ahead and buy the X1900XT. Direct X 10 is only going to be for Win Vista. Now, since games developers know that everyone is not going to jump over to Vista right away, they are not going to make DX10 exclusive games for at least a year after Vista launches.

Even Crytek says they are running Crysis on current DX9 hardware at the moment. So, IF (Big IF), Windows Vista launches on time in January, figure at least a year until DX10 games become a standard sight. My guess, is that most games in the next 18 months, will run DX9, and offer DX10 support through an option or a later patch.

So, the question is how patient do you want to be? The first salvo of the DX10 cards should be announced around September, and hit stores by November of this year, but there won't be a whole lot of software support for them for about 9-12 months after they launch. You want to game pretty now, get the X1900XT. If you can limp buy for another 6-12 months, hold off.

It's up to you.
June 22, 2006 12:20:55 AM

I'm guessing Spring/mid '07 you'll need a DX10 card at the earliest. Maybe go with something like X1800XT instead, to save some money. But the X1900XT would be a great choice.

Also, there are some rumours that next-gen cards could be out in the Fall, so keep your ears open. :wink:
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June 22, 2006 2:40:00 AM

DFI XF3200 or Sapphire 3200.

However the Sapphire board I'm thinking of is white and has a new revision SB480 Southbridge. If not the ULI m1575 (found on the Asus and DFI) board would be your best bet.

Best possible visual experience = 1900XT
Save a little money and still have a nice card = X1800XT
June 22, 2006 3:00:24 AM

Quote:
or should i use my x700 (plays almost all games on high or highest)
Right... Oblivion? F.E.A.R.? Doom3?
June 22, 2006 3:00:50 AM

I already answered that question for myself, and I bought a 1900 xtx. It should last a year and a half, maybe longer, before becoming obsolete. As for DX10 and Vista, who knows when that will happen. Every time Microsoft announces a release date, it then gets delayed. I don't want to play the waiting game to see what happens a year from now, I want to play games now.

Can't recommend which of the motherboards would be best.
a b U Graphics card
June 22, 2006 4:48:39 AM

Quote:
I already answered that question for myself, and I bought a 1900 xtx. It should last a year and a half, maybe longer, before becoming obsolete.


Here's the thing, neither of you should wait for it to become obsolete, check into selling it on eBay and then buying a new card about a month after launch when the good tests are in and an idea of who makes the best of each is beginning to formulate.

Most people trying the new gear sell and buy and it works well, because you old card is worth more the closer it is to the launch of the new card. Consider it, it may end up only being a $100 upgrade from there to top or near top of the line. Many people here have succsfully done that.
June 22, 2006 6:20:20 AM

What is your avatar? I can't even guess.
June 22, 2006 6:30:31 AM

I am betting the early (high-end) DX10 cards will CRUSH even the X1900XTX. I havn't seen any real numbers, but this is usually the case. Then I may need to get another card in late 2007/early 2008 when a more mature card is needed for the titles of that time. At leaset will be slightly ahead of the curve.
As soon as I can play Oblivion at 60+ fps 1900x1200 outdoors at all MAX settings , I will be sold.
Will anyone want my AGP 7800GS in a few months? :twisted:
Thanks..
June 22, 2006 7:52:13 AM

Quote:
or should i use my x700 (plays almost all games on high or highest)
Right... Oblivion? F.E.A.R.? Doom3?

Probably at mobile phone resolutions. And then only with AA and AF turned off :p 
a b U Graphics card
June 22, 2006 8:55:15 AM

Actually, DX10 is not in itself the biggest update coming. They are also working on shader version 4.0. Many cards have the hardware now to run DX10. The biggest changes with DX10 will be resolved with software and video card drivers. Shader 4.0 brings a new set of hardware requirements and will greatly standardize it so there aren't a zillion device capabilities to worry about with everyone's implmentation of the previous shader versions.

I have no clue when shader 4.0 will be standardized or when cards supporting it will be available. It looks cool on paper though.
June 22, 2006 9:14:04 AM

It was on Anandtech review of the Beta2 of Vista -- benchmarks and games took a Frames Per Second hit. As of right now gamers might want to stick with XP. They were not sure if it was the drivers or the OS. SO too early to tell get what you can use now if you are not satisfied with what you currently have. By the time the OS and then the diff revisions of drivers get tweaked then you probably have 2 years out.. By then the physics thing might also be sorted out. How about a dual GPU on the card as well as a Physic Processor with DX10for the price of $599.00.

I bought a X1900XTX ($550.00 compusa) and 2 Gig ram (DDR) @ FRYS around Christmas. I am going to stick it out untill the Conroe/AM2 or AM3 clears because I also want to use my ram as long as possible in this gane machine. I figure that wil be Christmas 2007 or there abouts.

Since the video card is the most time sensitive part, get it when it first is introduced. When you wait there is a big dilemma of time/price/performance. Yeah the price will go down but you get the full enjoyment. And actually you are on top of the development curve, not worring about the next big thing that might get announced the next week.

Bottom line if YOU ae satisfied with the performance then WAIT until it all comes together to your liking.

my humble opinion
June 22, 2006 10:13:22 AM

If the new DX10 video cards will run DX9 faster than Ati Radeon 1900XTX or Geforce 7950 GX2 and without any problems, it might be better to get one of those.
June 22, 2006 12:04:31 PM

in my opinion i wouldnt even go for a X1900XT. Simply because it would not be wise because of the time dilemma, in about a month or 2 the new G80 core will hit market and I guarantee you that it will desimate all the current gen cards.
Instead just get like a 200$ - 250$ card like a 7600GT or X1800GTO. It will save you heaps, then after the new DX10 cards hit the market buy one and enjoy the full glory of games like Crysis with DX10 effects.
Some of you said because its a new API and it wont have alot of support...thats a load of rubbish, they would have to support it fully because its new.

Btw those 200 - 250$ cards are AMAZING in performance, dont believe go check the benchmarks.
a b U Graphics card
June 22, 2006 2:53:41 PM

Quote:
Actually, DX10 is not in itself the biggest update coming. They are also working on shader version 4.0.


What do you think DX10 is? DX10 includes SM4.0.

However it also includes all the other goodies like Direct Audio, etc.
So DX10 is the big update, and the way it's being implemented is also a big thing.

The next gen cards all support SM4.0, but not all support all the feature in DX10.

Some of the cards that are confirmed to be be fully SM4.0 capable (and DX10 compliant) are Intel's GMA965, ATI's R600 & RS700, nV's G80, SiS's Mirage4, and XGI's XG60.
a b U Graphics card
June 22, 2006 3:03:04 PM

Quote:
in my opinion i wouldnt even go for a X1900XT. Simply because it would not be wise because of the time dilemma, in about a month or 2 the new G80 core will hit market and I guarantee you that it will desimate all the current gen cards.


That's a pretty safe bet, but the thing we don't know is the pricing, if it's near a GF7800GTX-512, it could be wise to buy and X1900XT, and then resell once the 2nd tier top end of the generation comes out. Also it'll depend on whether ATi and nV get products to market somewhat simultaneously, if not there is bound to be an initial premium on these cards.

Quote:
Instead just get like a 200$ - 250$ card like a 7600GT or X1800GTO.


Except that the X1800XT can be had for $220 and the X1900XT for $300, so the difference isn't that much, an resale will be much better on those two. Of course the GF7600GT and X1800GTO can be had for less than $200, so depending on finances all of them are good options. I'd still prefer the other two options though if I was looking for top end performance now and during the transition.
June 22, 2006 3:03:32 PM

Get the X1900XT now. When you can afford it get ATIs DX10 card(which actually fully DX10 compliant unlike Nvidias). Then use the X1900XT as a physics chip. Its a win win.

I'm still thinking that its possible for the X1900 series to run DX10 code since ATI is doing it themselves.
June 22, 2006 3:05:14 PM

Your tips have been very useful.. from your ideas it seems as though waiting for the first line of DX10 cards is better than wasting money on a soon to be obselete X1900XT.

To all of you people ripping on my x700 256mb of ram. I checked what my FEAR settings are CPU is on HIGH and graphics are on MAXIMUM (without turning of AA or AF). It runs smoothly and looks great. *X700 is OC'ed a bit*

Oblivion is another story, I played with very high settings in the beginning, but then once I got outside I was glitching like mad.

BF2 runs perfectly at the *unknown ULTRA_HIGH level* (If anyone wants to know how to do this, let me know)

*** I AM NOT ONE TO LIE ABOUT MY STATS ***


Thank You All
a b U Graphics card
June 22, 2006 3:27:25 PM

Quote:
(which actually fully DX10 compliant unlike Nvidias).


Just FYI, you mean capable, both will be compliant, but only the R600 will take advantage of the Unified section which isn't a 'requirement' but a 'supported feature'.

Quote:
Then use the X1900XT as a physics chip. Its a win win.


Yeah that would be nice, but personally I still say sell the X1900, and then use that to finance the R600/G80 purchase, and then when they finally ship games that use the HavokFX/DirectPhysics implementations then you can re-buy a second card if you so desire (who knows the money you sold the X1900XT for might be enough to buy a better mid-range DX10 card, which may be even better at the physics implementation than the X1900XT, or might be overkill (perhaps an X1600 is enough for most early VPU-physics games).

Quote:
I'm still thinking that its possible for the X1900 series to run DX10 code since ATI is doing it themselves.


Well they said it was emulating it through tweaking which sounds like they were using some work around that used both CPU and VPU reconfiguration to 'emulate' a DX10 card's abilities. Likely the true DX10 cards would be much faster and also likely most developers won't code for that, and even more likely ATi won't expose that option in drivers as it would remove another 'reason to upgrade' which kinda goes against their business model.
June 22, 2006 3:33:56 PM

id stick to the x700 for right now but if your in big need like prozac said x1800xt, x1900gt, 7900gt, 7600gt, x1800gto and unlock it. id stick the any of the gto's or gto2's
June 22, 2006 10:13:38 PM

It seems to me that you favor ATI, which is cool, I do too. I just switched to the Green from the Red this generation due to best card for my price range.

However, if you go with a EVGA card, (They only make Nvidia cards), they have that wonderful 90 Step Up program. So, if you time it right, you could buy a 7900GTX or 7950 GX2 now, and get full value for a trade up to the new cards when they come out. (If they come out in the next 3 months, that is.)

Just a thought.

(I'm taking advantage of the step-up as we speak, as I am in line for upgrading my 7900 GT CO to a GX2, and it's only going to cost me $300!. Yay me!)
a b U Graphics card
June 23, 2006 12:00:14 AM

Quote:
Actually, DX10 is not in itself the biggest update coming. They are also working on shader version 4.0.


What do you think DX10 is? DX10 includes SM4.0.

However it also includes all the other goodies like Direct Audio, etc.
So DX10 is the big update, and the way it's being implemented is also a big thing.

The next gen cards all support SM4.0, but not all support all the feature in DX10.

Some of the cards that are confirmed to be be fully SM4.0 capable (and DX10 compliant) are Intel's GMA965, ATI's R600 & RS700, nV's G80, SiS's Mirage4, and XGI's XG60.

You may be right about this. DX10 includes a lot of architectual changes to how a programmer creates the DirectX device, manages render states and resources, and communicated with the graphics card. One thing that is going away is the lost device problem with previous versions. There is some change regarding the exclusive mode an app has with the device.

It may well be that the new pipeline in DX10 is married to SM4.0. Whereas with the previous versions of DX they were separate. I haven't dug into the documentation that deeply yet, since I can't code in it yet.
June 23, 2006 12:34:38 AM

After doing some more research I believe Knyte has a good idea/point. I can get a evga 7900gt CO for $240 or a evga 7900 KO Superclocked for $275 both great deals. The best benefit though is the step-up program. My plan for my build was within the weeks after conroe comes out. So with the 90day step-up program evga offers, I would have until near the end of October! Hopefully by then some Dx10 cards will have come out by then.

Any other suggestions you guys have.. let me know

Thanks for all of your input
June 23, 2006 3:48:19 AM

Yeah, I was asking myself the same question: Get a x1900XTX or wait for DX10, I don't want to be left with a useless $500 video card in a year.

I just built a 805 OC setup 3 weeks ago and I really thought about waiting for conroe/Am2 + vista and well I am glad I built my system now and didn't wait.

I'd grab the X1900XTX now and like others have said, sell it to someone you know or on eBay if possible.

The 'Big Unknown' is when DX10 required games will come out. Will developers jump on it as soon as possible or still use DX9 since that's what the majority or people will use.

Oh and beware about that 90 stepup program, I read the FAQ and it said:

Q: How long will the Step-Up™ Program take?
A: Once you have submitted your information and you are approved for the Step-Up™ Program, EVGA must receive your card with in 15 days. Once we receive your graphics card it will take 1-3 business days to process your step up submission. At this point any charge overage or underage will be assessed. Once this is completed your new card will be shipped to you.

Q: Does EVGA offer cross shipping for the Step-Up™ Program?
A: No.
EVGA does not offer cross shipping for this program.

Do you really want to go 1-2 weeks without a card and have to pay for shipping both ways?

Myself, I'm undecided, I have a 7600 GT OC and it's pretty good. I dunno, I could buy a X1900XTX, a XBOX360 or a 20 inch LCD monitor. Hmmmm.
June 23, 2006 12:53:48 PM

Quote:
or should i use my x700 (plays almost all games on high or highest)
Right... Oblivion? F.E.A.R.? Doom3?

I just got the ati 1900xtx an upgrade over my 7800gtx and man, I love Oblivion now...yea i speant 500 dollars on a card to play a game but thats why I consider pc gaming a hobby now
June 24, 2006 3:22:23 AM

Quote:

Oh and beware about that 90 stepup program, I read the FAQ and it said:

Q: How long will the Step-Up™ Program take?
A: Once you have submitted your information and you are approved for the Step-Up™ Program, EVGA must receive your card with in 15 days. Once we receive your graphics card it will take 1-3 business days to process your step up submission. At this point any charge overage or underage will be assessed. Once this is completed your new card will be shipped to you.

Q: Does EVGA offer cross shipping for the Step-Up™ Program?
A: No.
EVGA does not offer cross shipping for this program.

Do you really want to go 1-2 weeks without a card and have to pay for shipping both ways?


But, due keep in mind, that the trade off is that you get the FULL retail value of your current card, as opposed to the used rate you could e-bay it for. As it stands right now, it looks like the average going price for a x1900xtx on E-bay is around $400.00, and that price is only going to drop as time ticks on. And, the cheapest you can buy a x1900xtx right now is $475.00, so that's all ready $75.00 lost.
June 24, 2006 4:38:09 AM

buy a cheap 100-$150 graphics card to keep you going until dx10, sell that, then get a 8) dx10 8) card
June 25, 2006 1:09:56 AM

i use to have a x700 AGP for my dell(then it overheated and burned the F**K out! I was so pissed then. um back to your question. If u tweak your x700 a bit, you should be able to hold off until DX10 comes out.
June 25, 2006 11:17:51 PM

I am seriously considering getting a 7950 GX2 so I can play Oblivion on high settings now. Does anyone think that once DX10 cards come out you could use the 7950 and the DX10 card together? Or is that just my ignorance with high tech speaking? I am building a gaming comp here in a few weeks and I want to play every game out there right now as well as possible. I would like to think the 575$ 7950 will not be obsolete for at least a year and a half to two years. I don't know, this is my first custom build and I have been reading tons of stuff for the past week and it sucks how much conflicting info there is.
June 26, 2006 3:47:50 AM

Well, the main thing to remember is that unlike privious versions of Direct X, 10 is going to be "Vista Exclusive", so that means that game companies are not going to be making a lot of DX10-only games until Vista has taken over as the dominate OS. It just wouldn't make sense buisness wise to make and release a game that ran on a OS that hardly anyone had.

I think this time, more so than ever, people are going to hold off on Vista, until it can prove itself to be stable, secure, and nessicary before they upgrade. I mean, personally, DX10 is the ONLY reason I am interested to upgrade to Vista. Other than that, nothing about really impresses me that much. I am sure with time, and with newer hardware releases that take advantage of the OS, I will see more reason to upgrade. As far as I am concerned, why switch OS's, when XP is finally stable and mostly bug-free?
June 26, 2006 4:17:06 AM

I think this has been talked a lot before.
The 7950 GX2 and X1900XTX are fast for now and can play Oblivion 30+ fps outdoors all MAX settings.
These are DX9 "sm 3" cards and will never be full DX10 cards. (no matter what kind of driver you install)
Usually the next-gen cards are much faster then the previous gen cards, have more bandwith, pipes, ram, efficient, etc etc etc,. I expect a high-end DX10 card able to play Oblivion twice as fast as any current DX9 card and have full DX 10 sm4 support. (Maybe even have unified shaders)
Ths might be necessary if the 7950 only gets 10 fps on FarCry2. There may be DX9 capatability mode that allows fairly good performance with a DX9 card.
June 26, 2006 4:47:07 AM

Quote:
I think this has been talked a lot before.
The 7950 GX2 and X1900XTX are fast for now and can play Oblivion 30+ fps outdoors all MAX settings.
These are DX9 "sm 3" cards and will never be full DX10 cards. (no matter what kind of driver you install)
Usually the next-gen cards are much faster then the previous gen cards, have more bandwith, pipes, ram, efficient, etc etc etc,. I expect a high-end DX10 card able to play Oblivion twice as fast as any current DX9 card and have full DX 10 sm4 support. (Maybe even have unified shaders)
Ths might be necessary if the 7950 only gets 10 fps on FarCry2. There may be DX9 capatability mode that allows fairly good performance with a DX9 card.


just like cod2 running in dx7 mode, i kno a bunch of ppl playing with gf4 cards getting around 60fps, they will definatly support dx9 for sometime
!