Chrome GPUs and the 3rd Graphics compedator

MatTheMurdera

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so it may have been a while ago but as i understand there is a 3rd (or at least 3rd visable) Graphics company that released the S3 Chrome. It may have performed badly but does anyone think they might be able to get in on the game? I personaly hope they dont, heres my reasoning: in a multi-company market, producing durable goods that typicaly advance technologicly often, the best type would be a duel monopoly. if there were more than 2 then each company would lose profits to the others, this may mean its better for us in that we have cheaper products, but they would advance in complexaty much slower due to smaller funds to invest in making better products. look at motherboard companies they are razor thin on profits and dont realy do that much without help from nvidia or intel or whatever. in say producing fans however, several dozen companies are very good they are forced to make the products cheaper than the competetion, without signifigant loss in quality to the consumer. anyway thats my 2 cents. (sorry about grammer, me laze)
 

cleeve

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S3 has played this story out at least 3 times in recent memory, they make a passable GPU and then can't market it to anyone.

I don't see that situation changing anytime soon.
 
S3 has played this story out at least 3 times in recent memory, they make a passable GPU and then can't market it to anyone.

From what I've seen the chromes are very good at 2D video (EvenHD) where they usually fall just short of nV's purevideo, better in some respects worse in others. 3D gaming, pretty much only 'better than Intel'.

Their future products are supposed to focus primarily on HTPCs from what I see.
 
I also disagree withthe best type would be a duel monopoly.
which makes me think of the oil industry. (Exxon Mobile anyone?) :?

Well it depends on how you look at an industry and it's factors.

The very best is a benevolent monopoly, the very worst is a selfish monopoly. Now the first is hard to comprehend, although think of government services, and more specifically utilities, it's supposed to act like a benevlolent monopolist to reach maximum efficiency through economies of scale. This sometimes works, and sometimes not, but those reasons are usually political (like Unions).

I think Matts looking at it from the perspective that a Duopoly allows for enough sustained profitiability that the necessary expenses (like R&D) are covered to move the industry ahead quickly. That the rivals are large, and are close means that there is still some level of competition, and if we believe no collusion it should amount to near perfect competition with the ability to factor in such large expenses like high level R&D.

IF there were 10 companies all cutting each other to shreds over pennies and have little left over for truely intensive market or risky steps.

Your comparsion is a Duopoly in a LOCAL marktet who is only part of the supply chain not the exclusive controls of it and not a Duopoly on the world stage, despite being large players. They have limited power as single players and even as colluding 'partners' at the time (more power in the governments involved than the corporation [baring the buddy-buddy Bush admins]). The threat of other large companies entering their market was enough to keep them in check pricing wise, which is why they aren't as bad as they could be. You think it's bad but the rest of the world looks at US prices and laughs at the complaints, if anything large players in oil have benifited things. This is not yourt father's Standard Oil, if you get my meaning.

I doubt we'd be as far ahead in graphics if we had 4 relatively even players. Both ATi and nV can stumble now (and both have recently) and not fear being knocked out permanently.
 

MatTheMurdera

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the problem with that is that the oil companies are limited artificaly by how much oil they can drill from the US (damn greenpeace, the oil companies arnt stupid, they arnt going to let there profits spill onto the ground if they can help it) and by the fact it is a comodity that is REQUIRED by everyone day to day(eg. someone says: thats horrid pricing! and buys it anyway to get to work). also what TGGA said.
 

Anoobis

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Touché. My intent was not to offend with that comment, more of a joke.

You can take the recent developments in Physics as a small example.

Aegia will most likely go the way of the Dodo, but they've helped speed up the gaming industry's drive for physics. I have no doubt that NV and ATI would've gotten around to developing better physics and that they will likely become key players in the future world of gaming physics. However, not much was heard from them (much less M$) on the subject until Aegia hit the scene. Suddenly they realize that they need to do something fast in this area or they could get bested by the "little guy" Aegia. So they start working on ideas and start diverting more resources to this issue. Then along comes M$ jumping in on it with a DirectX solution to physics. Now we have several companies working on this issue because there's money to be made here.

I'm not saying Aegia is the reason physics are the next big thing but they've played a large part of getting other companies to wake up and start doing something about it as opposed to getting around to it when they feel like it.
 

FAT_ALBERT

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Green peace, riiiigggghhhhtttt. Did you know that only 3% of the worlds oil is under the U.S. soil, and less then % is protected by law. Since we have a Capotalist market the drilling of these areas would not change oil prices at all.
 

Anoobis

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M$ sells Windows, which DirectX runs on and which game developers and hardware manufacturers work with when designing their products. M$ sees an opportunity to make their product (Windows) more attractive to developers and hardware manufacture by supporting this feature. The more developers and hardware suppliers use this feature, the more people stay with and use Windows, the more money M$ makes. Like I said, there is money to be made here and M$ knows this.

I consider physics to be a part of the gaming industry the same as I consider graphics cards to be a part the gaming industry.

Like I said earlier, the post was more of a joke. I didn't necessarily mean that you do not know economics.

I will agree that your idea makes sense but you have to factor in the cause and effect that more competition from other companies brings. Yes ATI and NV probably would have gotten around to it, but Aegia sort of forced their (ATI & NV) hands and they have to respond whether it is convenient for them or not. This in turn speeds the competition up as opposed to waiting around for the big two to get to it when they want to. In addition to that, M$ turns it's head to see what all the commotion is about and sees an opportunity and takes it. In this case, more than two companies is a good thing.
 
Well it could also be said that Ageia forced themselves and ATi & nV into the market TOO SOON, long before there was a need, thus hurting them and the consumer in the process.

I think the push would've come anyways, but being ahead of the cevelopers doesn't really help much, so I'm not sure there's yet a benifit to this new entrant/market.
 

Herr_Fritz

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But not only the GPU companies are looking at physics. AMDs forecast of a direct connect to the HT bus (?) with sockets/slots/whatever - adding specific coprocessors to a mobo depending on the need with fast access to the CPU's. They alluded to physics / number crunching / etc. I forget what they call this research, but because they directly mentioned the Ageia chip as a possible candidate for this, it seems that this small company's efforts even caught the eye of the CPU maker.

I have no idea if this will go anywhere for desktops, but we'll prolly see some play in servers / workstations.
 

MatTheMurdera

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supply up=price down, so dont tell me that it wouldnt make a difference. I have a close friend in the oil biz and he knows how much oil that the US is deneying the oil industry.
 

MatTheMurdera

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Well MS is basicly the center of Computers, it brings hardware and software together. Granted it may be a monopoly but in this case this is good, because of widespred standardization of products (directX for GPUs etc.) it makes it much easier (altho more expensive) for the consumer. Thing is it isnt accualy SELLING GPUs or soundcards or whatever, it just has its fingers in their pie, so to speak.

"I will agree that your idea makes sense but you have to factor in the cause and effect that more competition from other companies brings. Yes ATI and NV probably would have gotten around to it, but Aegia sort of forced their (ATI & NV) hands and they have to respond whether it is convenient for them or not."- you

I understand where you are coming from but I was talking about established industries, in this case lots of competion until there are only 2 companies left is a good thing, sort of an economic darwinisem if you will. Altho I beleive it would be better for ageia and another physics only company, an ATI vs Nvidia would work, not as well as above example but still well enough, the increased profits from the Physics "factor" in marketing their Video cards would help to cover the costs of developing better drivers for running Physics (aka more Realistic phyisics). Developing a better Physics card would be unecisary as just developing a new Video card would cover both bases.
 

Frank_M

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so it may have been a while ago but as i understand there is a 3rd (or at least 3rd visable) Graphics company that released the S3 Chrome.
heres my reasoning: in a multi-company market, producing durable goods that typicaly advance technologicly often, the best type would be a duel monopoly.
anyway thats my 2 cents.
(sorry about grammer, me laze)
Well, well, what do we have here :lol:
preparing for my economics complex exam, this made me make some interesting faces...
S3 has been around for a good couple of years. I think I even had one of their cards many moons ago - iirc, my pentium1 system.
When you have just one company tending to the market, it's monopoly; if there are two, it is called duopoly.
The theory of duopoly has long been researched, microeconomics has two models for them, the Cournot- and the Stackelberg-duopoly.
The whole thing burns down to this: to make optimal use of their situation (highest profits), oligopolistic formations produce less goods at a given price; in pure theory, a monopoly produces 1/2, a Cournot-type duopoly 2/3 and a Stackelberg-type 3/4 of a perfectly competitive market.
While this is not exactly so in real life, as there are many other specific factors to consider, but they do produce less.
Keep your two cents for funding your economics studies, or at least your grammar correction :p
 
Dude, I live in the Oil patch and deal with Patch-Kids all the time and about a third of the economic references in my grad classes are oil based, and the reality is that the amount being denyed is insignificant compared to what could be saved by changing regulations. CAFe standards and even moving from oil generation plants to other modes, heck even conservation on power transmission would all have more impact than the small amount of oil being denied.

I'm not going to argue the finer points of American politics, but the impact of that small amount of oil would be nothing compared to things like improving Russia's efficiency at recovery, refining or transportation.

Always remember there's two sides to that coin, and really you can't hope to make a dent without a change in consumption which is still sky high despite current 'high' prices. So ^ supply alone will not help if demand outpaces that increase, and currently there is no resource in the US that will stem that tide from production-siders alone.
 
Don't want to mess up your economics exam so read this later, this is for you to think about afterwards, because this will not apply to your exam unless you're doing senior university or grad work, and have already focused exclusively on oligopolies-monopolies or technology economics. So just a heads'up if you're studying I don't want to confuse you.

The whole thing burns down to this: to make optimal use of their situation (highest profits), oligopolistic formations produce less goods at a given price; in pure theory, a monopoly produces 1/2, a Cournot-type duopoly 2/3 and a Stackelberg-type 3/4 of a perfectly competitive market.
While this is not exactly so in real life, as there are many other specific factors to consider, but they do produce less.
Keep your two cents for funding your economics studies, or at least your grammar correction :p

First of all you're missing his point, these are not standardized widgets with a long market lifespan and no development cost, nor even easily interchangeable (otherwise who would care A vs B) in which case your examples would apply, the economic modeling you're describing is very simplistic and is better suited to easy recovery raw materials or very basic goods and services and great ease of entry/exit from the market. The models you use exclude exogenous changes, whereas this market is all about incorporating exogenous change as a strategy, and heavily influencing endogenous factors (hence the relationships with developers, M$, etc). It just doesn't translate well from strict static model at all, especially since your argument is more concerned with resource allocation than innovation. You're not wrong, just applying it incorrectly to try and refute his statements.

His comment is regarding the development of the features and technology not reaching a lower price equilibrium (which sounds like a good goal, but who want a $50 Riva/Rage (down from $100) versus a $50 GF7300/X1300 or $100 GF7600GX/X1600P). In theory what you're saying is correct if the market was driven by little/no differentiation and used price alone as a determinant.

For the graphics industry features are as important as price at at the two extremes almost the only factor, and there is alot of differentiation not only between companies but between products within the companies, and even their application/use.

Companies in a perfectly competitive market involving multiple players all reaching E with the market reaching E as well, this means limited profitability (ie no 'excess profits'), but for something like technology companies this also means two things, a) not enough accumulated wealth to fund extremely expensive R&D that does not usually enter the equation until 2+years into the future; and b) the inability to reach economies of scale where the factors of production (TSMC gives discount on bulk and also moves you to the front of the line if you're a big customer), transportation, distribution are reached to lower fixed and variable cost. The later speaks to your focus, the former to his.

Technology is a strange fish economically, and there are lots and LOTS of factors that make the usual models break down without applying them in stages or in completely revolutionary ways. The problems with simply applying the basic models to such a complex situation is the snapshot static nature of the model versus the realistic dynamic nature of the market. Texas instruments almost single handed developed the forward pricing strategy for chips, and this was something that speak well to your model because it involves a standardized widget (basic calculator chip), what would be considered dumping in just ab out any other market was just in time pricing, because the market is so different. However in the case MatT is trying to express (I got it) the benefits of a duopoly give us those advancements, but protect us from the ills of a monopoly, and I would tend to agree with him that a duopoly or small oligopoly works well in this scenario. I see room for the entrance of one or maybe two more major players, but not much more than that if we wish to keep the pace of technology high. In reality there are already 3 big players, but the biggest producer plays the truely 'widget' sales games, and it's maintenance of that role in graphics is a completely unrelated factor which wouldn't fit into any simple model, and would imply that no matter what factors in the graphics industry you include you'll only be able to describe and model partial equilibrium because theinfluence of Intel is huge, and their main reason for success involves their MoBo and CPUs sales, whose influence would be impossible to model correctly, you could only describe the influence at the most basic levels. We can guess that with the more 'effective' GMA965/3000 coming out that Intel will likely only increase their market share from what they currently have, but alot of that increase is bound to be due to the return to Intel from AMD due to Conroe, not because of the graphics industry itself.

Anywhoo, needless to says it's kinda complex and not just selling widgets. And while I understand where you're coming from from a theory standpoint, the market is much more complex than that and really it benefits from less competition than more. It still requires some, because without at least a duopoly there will be little/no motivation to innovate, and even with what many perceived to be a highly competitive duopoly in the discrete market, there was a statement 2 years ago by both of calming the pace of technology and not pushing each other to launch new cards as often, which would amount to collusion and really negate some of the benefits of the limited competition. In the end is all about balance, but not just equilibrium. :mrgreen:
 

Frank_M

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Don't want to mess up your economics exam so read this later, this is for you to think about afterwards, because this will not apply to your exam unless you're doing senior university or grad work, and have already focused exclusively on oligopolies-monopolies or technology economics. So just a heads'up if you're studying I don't want to confuse you.


The whole thing burns down to this: to make optimal use of their situation (highest profits), oligopolistic formations produce less goods at a given price; in pure theory, a monopoly produces 1/2, a Cournot-type duopoly 2/3 and a Stackelberg-type 3/4 of a perfectly competitive market.
While this is not exactly so in real life, as there are many other specific factors to consider, but they do produce less.
Keep your two cents for funding your economics studies, or at least your grammar correction :p


And while I understand where you're coming from from a theory standpoint, the market is much more complex than that and really it benefits from less competition than more.

No, you're not confusing me.
I'm well aware of all this.
As one of my teachers said, the first two years we spend learning the basics of micro- and macro-economics, then after that we learn why they don't work in real life.
I just gave him a little run down of the "official theory" involving duopoly, to counter "his theories" about economics. That's why I wrote "pure theory" and "other factors of real life".
These are just the theories and their overly simplified models (that's why they are models) and ideal and abstract constitutions, like the perfectly competitive market - which is quite far from reality. In fact, none of the perfectly competitive market's conditions work in real life; posessing full information in a world of R&D costs or assuming homogenous demand is especially invalid in this sector, as you pointed out.
 
Coolio, just didn't want to confuse things, heck I coul discuss this for hours, Nash-equilibrium wouldn't even come close to covering it without explaining the 'rationality' of negative seemingly irrational activities.

Truely one of the most cut-throat markets out there and there's and bad to that (they undercut each other, but can only afford to do so because of their 'excess profits' , and they act a predatory pricers to restrict new entrants success, but since Intel is still the largest producer and theyare themselves fiercely competative ATi&nV could never be taken to task for it. It's a very weird example especially since Intel is somewhat subdued in it's activities and doesn't really take advantage of it's dominant position unlike what I'd expect from ATi & nV.

Just as a point of discussion, it could be argued that online trading (currency market, futures, and to a lesser extent equities) is as close as you get to perfect competition, instant access to information, instant transactions, instantly updated prices, quantities and order fulfillement.
The funniest part is that there is no 'real' product being produced and it's just a question of manipulating resource (including capital) allocation, not the resources themselves.
 

FITCamaro

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you can't hope to make a dent without a change in consumption which is still sky high despite current 'high' prices.

Thats the key. The fact is despite high gas prices here in the US (and the rest of the world), Americans are still buying huge SUVs they don't fing need. Now I'm not a nature or environmental activist but I don't see the need for a damn 7 seater SUV when you:

1) have 1 or no kids, or
2) have no boat or anything else to tow, or
3) don't go offroading or anything.

Same with people who are driving around F250s, F350s, 2500 series, 3500 series, etc. The only reason is as a status symbol to either show that you have money or want people to think you do. I don't know how many people I see that look like they are barely above the poverty line but they're rolling around in an Expedition with 22s on it and a 4000W sound system.

As long as people keep buying those vehicles the gas companies see us as not truly giving a shit so they can keep the prices high. Yes emerging markets in China and India are another big cause for the high prices though.