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One final AGP upgrade. Any advice?

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June 22, 2006 11:08:38 PM

So I'm looking to do one final upgrade to the current machine I'm running with before eventually building a new system. The computer runs fine, but the games are starting to drag (i.e. Q4, CS:S, WoW, etc.). This computer will be a hand-me-down once I build a new machine, so I'd like it to basically be as good as it can get.

Here's the current setup:

Motherboard: Intel D845GBV
Processor: Intel P4 2.5GHz
RAM: 1GB DDR PC2100
Video: ATI Radeon 9800 PRO 128MB

I'm only looking to upgrade the video card, so here's what I've found so far.

eVGA GeForce 6800XT 128MB ($150)
http://www.mwave.com/mwave/viewspec.hmx?scriteria=AA471...

eVGA GeForce 7800GS CO 256MB ($280)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E1681...

Diamond Radeon X1600PRO 512MB ($175)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E1681...

Crucial Radeon X1600PRO 512MB ($200)
http://www.crucial.com/store/partspecs.Asp?IMODULE=CTVX...

So those are my options so far. I'm not sure if the 7800GS would really be worth it because I've heard that my CPU/Mobo will probably be the bottleneck so I wouldn't be able to get everything out of that card anyway. Might make more sense just to buy the 6800XT.

And the two X1600 cards, well, I've only read about the Diamond one here on Tom's Hardware. I happened to come across the Crucial one today, so I thought I'd throw it up there in case anyone knows anything good or bad about that card.

Any help would be greatly appreciated. And if you know of any other cards that might be better, I'd be happy to hear about them. Thanks everyone!
June 22, 2006 11:19:59 PM

Since you said you want it to be as good as it can get and since you're interested in the rigs gaming performance the choice is simple: 7800GS hands down.
Avoid the 6800XT, definitely not worth it
The X1600PRO will be passable for gaming but I wouldn't expect it to be better than the 9800Pro. Only go for it if you're interested in video encoding/decoding in which case it will be better than even the 7800GS (because of the AVIVO engine)
Another option would be the X800GTO: a decent card for gaming (better than the X1600PRO) and quite affordable
June 23, 2006 1:54:48 AM

Definitely not the 6800XT, like the other guy said.

X1600 Pro is overpriced... pathetic for the price ($200 is WAY too much for it).

And the 7800 GS is too much to just make a final AGP upgrade... AGP's days are numbered, so getting a high-end card for it wouldn't be a smart choice.

But here's one I think would suit you quite nicely:

http://shop.ati.com/product.asp?sku=2984012

$120 for a card that will own the 6800XT and X1600 Pro, and occasionally get as much as 90% of the performance of the 7800 GS. Now that's a good card for that price! I reccomend you buy it.
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a b U Graphics card
June 23, 2006 2:11:20 AM

For one last AGP hoorah, 7800GS all the way, don't settle for anything less! Believe that!

Also, if you can find one, the 6800GT Ultra is still an excellent choice!

Check Ebay for a decent deal on either card.

Good luck!
June 23, 2006 2:57:51 AM

I have an old dell with a P4 @2.4ghz and an intel 845pe motherboard and decided to upgrade to an x800 gTO. VERRRRYYY GGOOOD CARRD!! It will give you the extra boost you want in games and come at a cheaper price than the 7800gs..

If you have the money and want to spend the $$ on a 7800gs, then go for it. But keep in mind that after that, you will have to get a pci-e setup because new agp cards are not going to be brought out. And if you save money on the card, you could put that towards a new system!! :D 
June 23, 2006 4:50:18 AM

Thanks for all the advice everyone! The X800 GTO is looking a bit more promissing now, but I was always under the impression that the original X line of ATI cards weren't all that great compared to the nVidia GF 6 series. Was the GTO a later card?

I do realize that AGP is on it's way out, and yes, my next computer will be PCI-e with SLI and all that jazz. Like I said, I just want to do one final hoorah on this box so that the next user will enjoy it that much more than their current computer (which is about a year older).

I had a feeling a lot of people would suggest the 7800GS, but I'm still a bit skeptical as to if my computer can push it as hard as a new box might be able to? I mean, am I basically only going to get a 6800's worth of performance out of the 7800? Does that make sense? :) 

Thanks again!
June 23, 2006 5:42:39 AM

Quote:
Thanks for all the advice everyone! The X800 GTO is looking a bit more promissing now, but I was always under the impression that the original X line of ATI cards weren't all that great compared to the nVidia GF 6 series. Was the GTO a later card?

I do realize that AGP is on it's way out, and yes, my next computer will be PCI-e with SLI and all that jazz. Like I said, I just want to do one final hoorah on this box so that the next user will enjoy it that much more than their current computer (which is about a year older).

I had a feeling a lot of people would suggest the 7800GS, but I'm still a bit skeptical as to if my computer can push it as hard as a new box might be able to? I mean, am I basically only going to get a 6800's worth of performance out of the 7800? Does that make sense? :) 

Thanks again!


The X800 and X850 series cards were quite competative with the 6800 series cards. I will also vouch for the X800GTO for AGP. I have a Sapphire AGP GTO which I also got as an upgrade from a 9800Pro. My 3DMark05 score went up about 60% at stock clock speeds. After I unlocked the card to X800XL specs and overclocked it my score increased to about 85% of the stock speed score.

As far as the 7800GS goes, you will see higher peak frame rates but your minimum frame rate will be limited by your CPU/Motherboard/Memory combo. Personally I wouldn't spend the money that a 7800GS costs on a system as old as yours. I'm not even sure that I would spend it on my system if I had that much to spend. I have a Pentium 4 2.8c overclocked to 3.5GHz with Intel 865PE chipset and dual channel DDR400.

I think that the X800GTO is a good way to prolong the life of an older AGP system. The Sapphire cards seem to have a high success rate at unlocking too. Though it doesn't give a huge increase to performance it does add a little.
June 23, 2006 7:22:07 AM

Quote:
So I'm looking to do one final upgrade to the current machine I'm running with before eventually building a new system. The computer runs fine, but the games are starting to drag (i.e. Q4, CS:S, WoW, etc.). This computer will be a hand-me-down once I build a new machine, so I'd like it to basically be as good as it can get.

Here's the current setup:

Motherboard: Intel D845GBV
Processor: Intel P4 2.5GHz
RAM: 1GB DDR PC2100
Video: ATI Radeon 9800 PRO 128MB

I'm only looking to upgrade the video card, so here's what I've found so far.

eVGA GeForce 6800XT 128MB ($150)
http://www.mwave.com/mwave/viewspec.hmx?scriteria=AA471...

eVGA GeForce 7800GS CO 256MB ($280)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E1681...

Diamond Radeon X1600PRO 512MB ($175)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E1681...

Crucial Radeon X1600PRO 512MB ($200)
http://www.crucial.com/store/partspecs.Asp?IMODULE=CTVX...

So those are my options so far. I'm not sure if the 7800GS would really be worth it because I've heard that my CPU/Mobo will probably be the bottleneck so I wouldn't be able to get everything out of that card anyway. Might make more sense just to buy the 6800XT.

And the two X1600 cards, well, I've only read about the Diamond one here on Tom's Hardware. I happened to come across the Crucial one today, so I thought I'd throw it up there in case anyone knows anything good or bad about that card.

Any help would be greatly appreciated. And if you know of any other cards that might be better, I'd be happy to hear about them. Thanks everyone!
Yes, an x800GTO, or 6800GS would be a nice upgrade without draining your wallet. Both perform similarly, and have potential to be unlocked if you get a "lucky" one. 6800 XT is no good, and 7800GS is too much money. GL :) 
June 23, 2006 1:00:43 PM

Check around for better prices. I paid $135 at newegg for my 1600Pro 512 almost 2 months ago. A better choice would be a 6800GS for $180 if TigerDirect still has them. I wouldn't spend more than that though.
June 23, 2006 2:47:52 PM

The best financial bet when upgrading AGP, IMHO, is still the used market.

A used X800 XL or 6800 GT should be able to provide roughly 90% of the performance of the 7800 GS* for maybe $150 on ebay.

The 7800 GS only makes sense if you're really into overclocking and are chained to the AGP standard. Otherwise it's kind of overpriced, since a PCIe system upgrade doesn't cost all that much, and a cheapo $175 7600 GT on PCIexpress will perform similarly to the 7800 GS*.


That $120 GTO is a great deal too, though.



* (At stock clockspeeds, of course :wink: )
June 23, 2006 4:43:29 PM

Quote:
The best financial bet when upgrading AGP, IMHO, is still the used market.

A used X800 XL or 6800 GT should be able to provide roughly 90% of the performance of the 7800 GS* for maybe $150 on ebay.

The 7800 GS only makes sense if you're really into overclocking and are chained to the AGP standard. Otherwise it's kind of overpriced, since a PCIe system upgrade doesn't cost all that much, and a cheapo $175 7600 GT on PCIexpress will perform similarly to the 7800 GS*.


That $120 GTO is a great deal too, though.



* (At stock clockspeeds, of course :wink: )


As I already posted, X800 XL for $120, same price as that used GTO... I think that'd be a better deal.

And if the OP is gonna get a new PCI-E system w/ SLI and so on, then going for the 7800 GS would be a bad idea... more than twice as much as some of the options here, and isn't a huge leap over them either.

Once again, I reccomend this X800 XL:

http://shop.ati.com/product.asp?sku=2984012
June 23, 2006 4:44:52 PM

Last year I upgraded my 9800 Pro to an X850 Pro and was very happy with the performance leap. The card cost me $200 at BestBuy at the time. I had no problems overclocking the X850 Pro to X850 XT PE speeds, however I'm still only at 12 pipelines.

I was using 4 year old A8N7X board with an XP 3200 chip. This month I decided to venture into the world of Athlon 64. I was still so much satisfied with the X850 that I bought an AGP motherboard since buying a new video card didn't seem worth it (unless I was willing to spend $500 for 7900something). Unfortunately with how fast CPU sockets are changing, I figure I'll probably be needing a new motherboard the next time I upgrade again anyway.
June 23, 2006 4:53:07 PM

I'm going to run with Cleeve with this one, however, I'm going to recommed the OP stick with NV on this one.

kindageek said this system was still going to be used after he builds a new machine. With that in mind I would search eBay for a used 6800GT. You get a very capable card that supports SM 3.0, which the X800XL does not. Since the system could be in use for awhile, I think it's worth getting this feature on a card that can handle it. As much as I like the X800GTO and X800XL, I think kindageek should be trying to get the best card here with as many features as possible without spending a lot of money.

Here's an AGP BFG 6800GT that's looking really nice right about now.

If he must go new, then this would be one of the few instances where I would recommend nothing less than a 7800GS in this case because I think the card has more longevity in it than the other cards mentioned.

I understand that the ATI Shop X800XL is a great deal, but it's also a Pre-Order and has been like that ever since I've seen the link posted on it. There's no telling when the card will be available, if ever.
June 23, 2006 4:54:00 PM

6800XT? Yuck. Take a look at that refurb X800XL for $120 on the ATI website.

EDIT: Here's a link
June 23, 2006 5:01:03 PM

Quote:
6800XT? Yuck. Take a look at that refurb X800XL for $120 on the ATI website.

EDIT: Here's a link


Lol, already posted it :) 
June 23, 2006 5:07:12 PM

7800GS
June 23, 2006 5:17:34 PM

Quote:
6800XT? Yuck. Take a look at that refurb X800XL for $120 on the ATI website.

EDIT: Here's a link


Lol, already posted it :) 

Oops; I didn't notice that.
June 23, 2006 5:51:28 PM

Keep rewriting the end date people........

Posted on Digitimes
http://www.digitimes.com/mobos/a20060619PR207.html

"Nvidia has revised its product roadmap, due to continued strong demand for AGP-based systems and Intel's ongoing shipments of 865 chipsets, sources at Taiwan motherboard makers indicated. The graphics chip vendor plans to launch the AGP version of its GeForce 7600GS/ GT graphics processing units (GPUs) in the third quarter of 2006, according to the sources."
....text......
"Intel's decision was made as a result of massive demand in emerging markets, such as China, the sources noted. In addition, the adoption of AGP-capable graphics cards in the upgrade market has decelerated the complete migration of mainstream graphics cards to PCI Express, the sources indicated."


:lol: 
June 23, 2006 5:56:48 PM

the x1600pro agp on newegg is now only $100

since your processor doesnt have much steam left in it i would buy the cheapest card to keep you going for a few months and save up to build/buy a new computer
June 23, 2006 7:16:28 PM

Quote:
the x1600pro agp on newegg is now only $100

since your processor doesnt have much steam left in it i would buy the cheapest card to keep you going for a few months and save up to build/buy a new computer


X1600 Pro is crap. 'Nuff said.
June 23, 2006 8:11:04 PM

Quote:
X1600 Pro is crap. 'Nuff said.


I dunno about that. Seems to hold up well against the 6600 GT in alot of things. For $100, it's not bad at all... alot of overclocking headroom on the core, too.
June 23, 2006 8:16:15 PM

this is easy, keep what u have, cuz if u get a card over 200 u might as well split it in halfish, 75 for a pci-e mobo and 150 on an x850xt that is only 10% slower than the 7800gs!
June 23, 2006 8:22:09 PM

Quote:
this is easy, keep what u have, cuz if u get a card over 200 u might as well split it in halfish, 75 for a pci-e mobo and 150 on an x850xt that is only 10% slower than the 7800gs!

Right, find the OP a Socket 478 board with PCI-E that he can buy now.
June 23, 2006 10:14:55 PM

Quote:
X1600 Pro is crap. 'Nuff said.


I dunno about that. Seems to hold up well against the 6600 GT in alot of things. For $100, it's not bad at all... alot of overclocking headroom on the core, too.

The $100 range is the area of the x1300. The x1600 would seem to be overpriced given its competition. Did ATi really give this card a chance in the mid-range? (The 512MB version is just a poor attempt at sales) No, the 6600GT is nearly two years old and it still outperforms the x1600 as does the older x700.

Indeed, the 7600GS/GT cards are the expected "rivals" of the x1600 unless there is now a gaping hole in the ATi product line.
a b U Graphics card
June 23, 2006 10:35:31 PM

Quote:
No, the 6600GT is nearly two years old and it still outperforms the x1600 as does the older x700.

The X1600 pro AGP kicked the X700 pro's butt in this review, although contrary to the reviewer's opinion, it's surely a dumb idea to go from X700 pro or even R9800 pro to a X1600 pro. Anyway, it was Just about a clean sweep. And X700 pro is very close to a 6600GT. I wouldn't be surpised if all three cards could take honors in a few games although overall the 6600GT would be the winner.
June 23, 2006 10:37:13 PM

My advice: Wait for the 7600GS in the AGP flavor. But that's just me :) 
June 23, 2006 10:57:02 PM

Quote:
No, the 6600GT is nearly two years old and it still outperforms the x1600 as does the older x700.

The X1600 pro AGP kicked the X700 pro's butt in this review, although contrary to the reviewer's opinion, it's surely a dumb idea to go from X700 pro or even R9800 pro to a X1600 pro. Anyway, it was Just about a clean sweep. And X700 pro is very close to a 6600GT. I wouldn't be surpised if all three cards could take honors in a few games although overall the 6600GT would be the winner.

I mis spoke about the x700 (so sue me) outperfoming the x1600 (of course the x700 never was so overpriced for a midrange card.)

I should have said the 6600GT is nearly two years old and it still outperforms the x1600 as it does the older x700.

The x700 is not close to a 6600GT...If it was I'm sure the review you cite would have included the card, but did not because the 6600GT would come out on top as it did in reviews with the x700.

but don't worry....there is a review of the x700 with a 6600GT.
Review comments below from VR-Zone.com below: GeCubeRadeon X700Pro vs. Nvidia 6600GT May 23, 2005

UT2004
"Still, the X700Pro AGP has no match against the 6600GT AGP. The 6600GT AGP managed to pull 10fps more than the ATi card."

DoomIII
"ATi was traditionally left behind in most Open GL tests, especially in Doom III. The X700Pro AGP had finished the test nearly 20fps slower then the NVIDIA card. Not too surprising, but still quite a disappointing score."

3Dmark03
"In 3dmark 03, NVIDIA's 6600GT scores a near 600 point lead against the X700Pro AGP. It seems that NVIDIA's higher core and memory clock had paid off pretty well."

3Dmark05
"After the publishing of this article, Gecube had immediately responded, with regards to the shockingly low score in 3DMark 05. Gecube had therefore sent us another sample, and this time, we got alot better scores on this card. However, results from the new card still could not outpace the 6600GT."

Conclusion:
"From the results of this test, it seems that ATi had underestimated both themselves and the intended contestant to this mid end card. With almost all aspect losing out to the 6600GT AGP, ATi needs to do something about their mid end products......"

This review was just over a year ago..nice to see somethings never change, eh?
June 23, 2006 10:57:56 PM

Quote:

The $100 range is the area of the x1300. The x1600 would seem to be overpriced given its competition. Did ATi really give this card a chance in the mid-range? (The 512MB version is just a poor attempt at sales) No, the 6600GT is nearly two years old and it still outperforms the x1600 as does the older x700.

Indeed, the 7600GS/GT cards are the expected "rivals" of the x1600 unless there is now a gaping hole in the ATi product line.


We're talking AGP here... and there is no 7600 in AGP...

In AGP, the 6600 GT and X1600 PRO sompete for the sub-$150 market, and the X1600 seems to be cheaper from what I've seen.

There's a gaping hole in AGP, but every vendor has it. Neither offers a compelling $150 to $200 offering, the X800 GTO and 6800 GS aren't all that great - but they're probably the best there is for the price, and the price/performance of the 7800 GS is less than stellar.


In PCIe, the 7600 GT has long since relegated the X1600 to sub-$150 viability, the X850 XT and X1600 XT competes well at about $150, and the X1800 GTO competes with the 7600 GT at the sub-$200 range , a little pricier than the 7600 GT but with much better overclocking prospects.

Where's the gaping hole?


But as far as the x1600 goes, who cares what the intended price range was?

None of this affects the fact that a $100 X1600 PRO is a decent buy in AGP and stands up well to any other $100 offering.
June 23, 2006 11:11:17 PM

Quote:
Since you said you want it to be as good as it can get and since you're interested in the rigs gaming performance the choice is simple: 7800GS hands down.
Avoid the 6800XT, definitely not worth it
The X1600PRO will be passable for gaming but I wouldn't expect it to be better than the 9800Pro. Only go for it if you're interested in video encoding/decoding in which case it will be better than even the 7800GS (because of the AVIVO engine)
Another option would be the X800GTO: a decent card for gaming (better than the X1600PRO) and quite affordable


x1600 was @ 130 last month @ newegg, I know this cuz I got one :p 
June 23, 2006 11:14:54 PM

I would agree Cleeve that as a mail order sale price for $100, the x1600 is a very good upgrade for someone with a significantly older card. Yet I don't know how many people will purchase this cards online. Most potential x1600 buyers I think will shop conventionally.

Retail stores will not be selling the x1600 under $130 on the shelf. Example: in Fry's and BestBuy are both asking $199 (and that's with a $50 rebate) for the x1600Pro 512MB and the 256MB Diamond x1600 is listed for $180 at Comp USA.

again, for the top AGP card that ATi has to offer or as a mid-level PCIe card it is a very poor effort when looking at the 7600 series or even an older 6600GT.
June 23, 2006 11:25:38 PM

For sure I'll agree that retail over $130 would not be reasonable for an X1600, but if we're talking retail alot of the price landscape changes.

This whole discussion kind of hinges on online pricing, if we change the rules to 'retail only', everything we've been discussing pretty much goes out the window.

I'll also heartily agree that the X1600 was indeed a poor effort compared to the 7600 GT, but that's why it was relegated to a lower price point and the X1800 GTO was introduced...
June 23, 2006 11:32:34 PM

Quote:


We're talking AGP here... and there is no 7600 in AGP...

In AGP, the 6600 GT and X1600 PRO sompete for the sub-$150 market, and the X1600 seems to be cheaper from what I've seen.


Again worth mentioning from Digitimes.... :lol: 
"....the AGP version of its GeForce 7600GS/ GT graphics processing units (GPUs) in the third quarter of 2006, according to the sources."

The x1600 should be cheaper than the older 6600GT? Well, it does seem to be the worse performing of the two.......

Quote:
There's a gaping hole in AGP, but every vendor has it. Neither offers a compelling $150 to $200 offering, the X800 GTO and 6800 GS aren't all that great - but they're probably the best there is for the price, and the price/performance of the 7800 GS is less than stellar.


Actually there are some interesting AGP cards out there. XFX has an AGP variant of the 6800XTreme for $150. The 7800GS thing isn't relevant at this price point. And see the digitimes article about the 7600 AGP comming soon.

snip text

Quote:
Where's the gaping hole?

between the x1600 and the x1800, ATi has a huge gap pricewise in their PCIe lineup.


Quote:
But as far as the x1600 goes, who cares what the intended price range was?

Retail outlets care.

Quote:
None of this affects the fact that a $100 X1600 PRO is a decent buy in AGP and stands up well to any other $100 offering.

Only a "decent" buy in the online world. On the retail shelf this card is an expensive dog. (woof, woof) [/quote]
June 23, 2006 11:45:32 PM

Quote:
For sure I'll agree that retail over $130 would not be reasonable for an X1600, but if we're talking retail alot of the price landscape changes.

This whole discussion kind of hinges on online pricing, if we change the rules to 'retail only', everything we've been discussing pretty much goes out the window.

I'll also heartily agree that the X1600 was indeed a poor effort compared to the 7600 GT, but that's why it was relegated to a lower price point and the X1800 GTO was introduced...


Any discussion of pricing must mention "brick and mortar" stores along with online sales. Each have advantages and disadvantages. I'm certain ATi is counting on the casual gamer to buy this card through CompUSA or BestBuy type places. That was the case when I worked computer softeware retail back in the mid90s.
a b U Graphics card
June 23, 2006 11:49:12 PM

Quote:
6800XT? Yuck. Take a look at that refurb X800XL for $120 on the ATI website.

EDIT: Here's a link


What you said!
a b U Graphics card
June 24, 2006 2:37:33 AM

Quote:
I mis spoke about the x700 (so sue me) outperfoming the x1600 (of course the x700 never was so overpriced for a midrange card.)

No problem, mistakes happen. Yup, the X700 pro was overpriced most of the time.

Quote:
I should have said the 6600GT is nearly two years old and it still outperforms the x1600 as it does the older x700.
Well, I haven't seen too many direct comparisons and while I have owned both cards, I didn't have them at the same time to bench, so maybe you can give me some links that support your conclusion. But anyway, I do feel and did say the 6600GT is IMO the overall winner. Problem is in general for a 2 year old card as you say, 6600GT prices have remained high and the X1600 pro is currently available for less money.

Quote:
The x700 is not close to a 6600G...If it was I'm sure the review you cite would have included the card, but did not because the 6600GT would come out on top as it did in reviews with the x700.
The 6600GT missing from the review has absolutely nothing to do with how the card stacks up. That's an absolute rediculous comment.

Quote:
but don't worry....there is a review of the x700 with a 6600GT.
Review comments below from VR-Zone.com below: GeCubeRadeon X700Pro vs. Nvidia 6600GT May 23, 2005
Ok, that's the umteenth time you have said X700. Lets talk about the X700 pro and not the X700 vanilla or X700XT. Nice missing link to your review, but have no fear...here is an actual link of a 6600GT, 6600GT OC, and X700 pro review where best playable settings are examined and benched. Lets examine the best playable settings shall we:

Doom 3 - 6600GT wins
Farcry - Same
HL2 - X700 pro wins
NFSu2 - Same
Riddick - 6600GT wins
Everquest II - X700 pro wins.

So note, it is only in the two OGL games that they found the 6600GT had better playable settings than the X700 pro, and on top of that both cards win 2 games and tie in the other 3. Looks like you are wrong again and the X700 pro is actually close to the 6600GT just as I stated.
June 24, 2006 3:49:44 AM

Whew, lots of posts. I thought I was getting close to making a decision, but you guys are throwing me for a whirl. :) 

I started leaning more toward the X800, but is the XL or the GTO better? Getting a 6800GS would be nice, but they seem to be really hard to find.

I'm not sure where everyone is seeing the X1600 for only $100. You sure that isn't the PCIe version? Or maybe I didn't realize there was a standard one that isn't the PRO 512MB one? Either way it seems that no one has anything good to say about the X1600 when it comes to gaming, so I think I'll steer clear.

The debate continues...
June 24, 2006 4:00:53 AM

Quote:
We're talking AGP here... and there is no 7600 in AGP...


Ummm...when is it supposed to come out again? There will be a 7600GS AGP card, nvidia confirms it in their driver release notes.

I'm tellin ya man (kindageek), I'd wait for the 7600GS to come out in the AGP flavor before spending money--you'll kick yourself if it ends up being a bargain...
June 24, 2006 4:21:16 AM

Quote:
Whew, lots of posts. I thought I was getting close to making a decision, but you guys are throwing me for a whirl. :) 

I started leaning more toward the X800, but is the XL or the GTO better? Getting a 6800GS would be nice, but they seem to be really hard to find.

I'm not sure where everyone is seeing the X1600 for only $100. You sure that isn't the PCIe version? Or maybe I didn't realize there was a standard one that isn't the PRO 512MB one? Either way it seems that no one has anything good to say about the X1600 when it comes to gaming, so I think I'll steer clear.

The debate continues...

buy a x800GTO for 140$ unlockable to 16 pipelines. I think that it will kick both 6600GT and x1600pro in most games even though it does nt support sm 3.0.
June 24, 2006 6:02:34 AM

Quote:
We're talking AGP here... and there is no 7600 in AGP...


Ummm...when is it supposed to come out again? There will be a 7600GS AGP card, nvidia confirms it in their driver release notes.

I'm tellin ya man (kindageek), I'd wait for the 7600GS to come out in the AGP flavor before spending money--you'll kick yourself if it ends up being a bargain...If he's gonna wait, he may as well wait for the rumored 7600GT(assuming they don't neuter it too badly for AGP)The 7600GS is castrated also, but i don't think the OP really wants to wait for
Q3 '06.
June 24, 2006 9:49:36 AM

I am getting ready for x800 pro vivo AGP card from e-bay, but when i went to a local store to get prices, the sales guy said to better get a 6600 nvidia card. The one im trying to get from ebay is already moded to 16 pipes, it has bios flashed, and prise is arround $160. What do you guys think?
June 24, 2006 11:28:19 AM

go with the 7800GS. Very nice card and performs like a 7800GT. With EVGA's lifetime warranty on that card you really can't go wrong with this perchase.
June 24, 2006 5:45:39 PM

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Whew, lots of posts. I thought I was getting close to making a decision, but you guys are throwing me for a whirl. :) 

I started leaning more toward the X800, but is the XL or the GTO better? Getting a 6800GS would be nice, but they seem to be really hard to find.

I'm not sure where everyone is seeing the X1600 for only $100. You sure that isn't the PCIe version? Or maybe I didn't realize there was a standard one that isn't the PRO 512MB one? Either way it seems that no one has anything good to say about the X1600 when it comes to gaming, so I think I'll steer clear.

The debate continues...


I've already said it before, but the X800 XL is much better than the X800 GTO (at stock clock speeds). And $120 is quite an awesome price for the card.

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buy a x800GTO for 140$ unlockable to 16 pipelines. I think that it will kick both 6600GT and x1600pro in most games even though it does nt support sm 3.0.


Getting an X800 GTO for OCing means you're taking a chance: if you get an R430 chip, then you won't get a whole lot out of it. If it's R423/R480, then you'll probably get the extra quad and a hell of a lot of OCing. Risky business there... and again, it's $20 more than that X800 XL.

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go with the 7800GS. Very nice card and performs like a 7800GT. With EVGA's lifetime warranty on that card you really can't go wrong with this perchase.


No, the 7800 GS does not perform at the level of a 7800 GT. It's basically a 7800 GT with lower clock speeds, pipelines, etc. It actually performs quite a bit worse then a 7800 GT (at stock clock speeds). Sure, the lifetime warranty is nice, but if you plan to OC it, then what's the point?
a b U Graphics card
June 24, 2006 9:58:26 PM

Just in case you see Radeon X8xx AGP's at what seems to be a good price, here is their performance pecking order from best to worst:

X850XTpe
X800XTpe/X850XT
X800XT
X800XL/X850 pro
X800 pro/X800GTO 256MB
X800/X800GTO 128MB (slower memory clocks than 256MB versions)

Anway, all of these are better performers than the X1600 pro, yet the X1600 pro is newer, has Avivo, and SM3.0. Personally priced the same I'd take a 128MB X800 SM2.0B card over a slower X1600 pro SM3.0.

You can find X800XTpe AGP for under $200 on EBAY brand new. It's clocked a tad over the non platinum X850XT, but basically the same performance. That's the best $200 AGP available IMO with only the higher priced 7800GS and X850XTpe being better. I have this card and it's about the same level of performance or a bit faster(in most of my games) than a 6800U OC.
June 25, 2006 6:23:49 AM

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I mis spoke about the x700 (so sue me) outperfoming the x1600 (of course the x700 never was so overpriced for a midrange card.)

No problem, mistakes happen. Yup, the X700 pro was overpriced most of the time.

take my full comment next time without splicing. Guess I know you are not going to include any citiations of your own here.

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I should have said the 6600GT is nearly two years old and it still outperforms the x1600 as it does the older x700.
Well, I haven't seen too many direct comparisons and while I have owned both cards, I didn't have them at the same time to bench, so maybe you can give me some links that support your conclusion. But anyway, I do feel and did say the 6600GT is IMO the overall winner. Problem is in general for a 2 year old card as you say, 6600GT prices have remained high and the X1600 pro is currently available for less money.

Again, where is your reference? 6600GT prices are starting at or around $130 and go up from there. Considering it is a stronger card than a x1600, which is touted as the mid range equivalent to the 7600. ATi has some work to do. The 6600GT is generally thought of as the benchmark card for the midrange "best bang for the buck". The 7600GT is its logical replacement.

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The x700 is not close to a 6600G...If it was I'm sure the review you cite would have included the card, but did not because the 6600GT would come out on top as it did in reviews with the x700.
The 6600GT missing from the review has absolutely nothing to do with how the card stacks up. That's an absolute rediculous comment.

A rediculous comment? How so? Simply an observation. Rediculous in that avoiding a comparison with an older Nvida card that would be faster in all aspects? yeah, totally rediculous. :lol: 

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but don't worry....there is a review of the x700 with a 6600GT.
Review comments below from VR-Zone.com below: GeCubeRadeon X700Pro vs. Nvidia 6600GT May 23, 2005
Ok, that's the umteenth time you have said X700. Lets talk about the X700 pro and not the X700 vanilla or X700XT. Nice missing link to your review, but have no fear...here is an actual link of a 6600GT, 6600GT OC, and X700 pro review where best playable settings are examined and benched. Lets examine the best playable settings shall we:

Doom 3 - 6600GT wins
Farcry - Same
HL2 - X700 pro wins
NFSu2 - Same
Riddick - 6600GT wins
Everquest II - X700 pro wins.

So note, it is only in the two OGL games that they found the 6600GT had better playable settings than the X700 pro, and on top of that both cards win 2 games and tie in the other 3. Looks like you are wrong again and the X700 pro is actually close to the 6600GT just as I stated.

unmpteenth time???? were you counting? I think you double or triple counted some of those instances. :wink:

oooh talk about editing a card review. 8O
I looked at the XFX 6600GT used in your cited review. A bit overgeneralizing the results weren't you? (tisk, tisk)

You forgot to mention the following:
In FarCry....."After the 77 second mark, however, the 6600 GT-based video cards take the lead due to their support of Shader Model 3.0. At the 77 second mark."
In addition, the 6600GT enjoys a higher average fps (43.9 to 38.7)

"In Half-Life 2, we found that all three GeForce 6600 GT-based video cards were playable at 1024x768 with 4XAA and 8XAF. We did try 1280x1024 with 2XAA and 8XAF, especially on the XFX GeForce 6600 GT Gamer Edition video card, but, unfortunately, there were too many instances where fps performance dropped to the lower 20s. You may find it playable in some situations, but since we take the highest playable settings throughout the entire game, we had to stick with 1024x768 at 4XAA and 8XAF to enjoy every scenario in the game. The Sapphire X700 PRO with Catalyst 5.1, on the other hand, played well at 1280x1024 with 2XAA and 8XAF throughout the game."

staying at 1024x768 the 6600GT again outperformed the x700pro in max fps (175 to 165) and avg. fps (80.4 to 62.3)

NeedForSpeed2
"Just like FarCry, we found all four cards to perform similarly at the same playable settings. We found that 1024x768 with no AA and 16XAF was the highest playable setting." ...."We saw no differences in image quality between the X700 PRO and the GeForce 6 series cards."
and yet again the XFX card came out wiith higher max fps(54 to 52) and avg. (45.8 to 41.7)
So if you want, I guess this round was a draw.

Everquest (aka Evercrack)
althought playable at heigher res. The x700 pro still gave up max fps and avg fps at the 1024x768 res.

So lets retally your scorecard:

Doom 3 - 6600GT wins
Farcry - 6600GT wins
HL2 - 6600GT wins
NFSu2 - Same
Riddick - 6600GT wins
Everquest II - X700 pro wins

hmmmmm. 4 wins 1draw and 1loss favors the 6600GT... thanks for playing

as the reviewer oif the article concluded "All three GeForce 6600 GT-based video cards we tested today will provide you with a great gameplay experience, and they really are the best value in the mainstream video card category." and one of those cards was AGP...hmmmm and it is recommended over a PCIe based x700Pro ? (gasp) 8O

since I was taking about the x700 in general you didn't need to get your undies in a bunch. Sheesh. :? I guess if I wanted I could fish for a review of the BFG 6600GT that would lay waste to your x700pro, but I quite frankly don't really care too much. :D  they're both past their prime. As other posters have said, the 7600GT is a very attractive buy.

I do agree that the x800/850 series is a far superior lineup, (for a mid-range alternative to Nvidia) which is very sad to see how ATi abandoned this design altogether for the x1000 series. The omission of SM3.0 is a small matter given the upcomming SM4.0 and DX10 cards when you think about it.
June 25, 2006 11:14:42 AM

I have an AGP BFG tech 6800gt oc if you like. I have no use for it if your interested.


I works great
a b U Graphics card
June 25, 2006 4:58:11 PM

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take my full comment next time without splicing. Guess I know you are not going to include any citiations of your own here.

? That was your entire paragraph (so to speak). NO splicing whatsoever. I see no need to requote myself.

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Again, where is your reference? 6600GT prices are starting at or around $130 and go up from there.

I paid less than $130 for a 6600GT AGP 1 year ago. Even got them for $100 AR for a brief time. Currently X1600 pro is less. I paid $105 for my last AGP Sapphire. Here is the nice HIS Ice Q model with quiet artic cooler and full version of Flatout for $110 + shipping. That's my basis to go by for the X1600 pro. If you can get a 6600GT for that money, yes it would be a good buy. But as we stand now, 6600GT AGP has been about the same price as the cheapest X800GTO/X800 pro's(Newegg had a brand new X800 pro for $139 recently). Those cards spank the the other two we are talking about, so I don't see the 6600GT offering much right now. The cheapest 6600GT AGP on pricewatch now is $140. Newegg's cheapest is $130 for a prolink with slower mem clocks. BUT, I will say, the current trend is the 6600GT's are dropping in price, and again priced the same as a Sapphire X1600 pro like I have, I'd surely buy the 6600GT instead.

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Considering it is a stronger card than a x1600, which is touted as the mid range equivalent to the 7600. ATi has some work to do. The 6600GT is generally thought of as the benchmark card for the midrange "best bang for the buck". The 7600GT is its logical replacement.

Yes, ATI will have some work to do, but not because of GF6's. I am hoping the 7600GS AGP will so far outshine these other cards and for the same price, that ATI will be forced to answer back or greatly drop X1600 pro pricing. Anyway, At one time the 6600GT was clearly a best buy, but not now. X700 pro was really never a best buy...overshadowed by the usually cheaper and faster 6600GT.

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A rediculous comment? How so? Simply an observation. Rediculous in that avoiding a comparison with an older Nvida card that would be faster in all aspects? yeah, totally rediculous. :lol: 


You need to go read your comment again and try to see it how I assume everyone else would see it. You are claiming the 6600GT was left out of the review because it would be the winner and implying the 6600GT is faster and that's why it was left out of the review. A card absent from a review can not be declared the winner; that is the rediculous part. I do agree though, it would have been a way more useful review if the 6600GT was included. But their reasons for leaving it out are likely not having the card and/or not wanting to put the time into a more thorough (and useful) review. It should have been there and yes as I have said up higher IMO it would have been the winnner.

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oooh talk about editing a card review. 8O
I looked at the XFX 6600GT used in your cited review. A bit overgeneralizing the results weren't you? (tisk, tisk)

No, lest you forget you claimed the X700 pro wasn't close to a 6600GT. All I needed to prove was that they were as I originally stated close. I gave you a link of their best playable settings in the 7 games they tested. If playable settings are equal, then the cards are clearly close. Nice attempt of spinning the blame around, but so far I have proved you wrong twice with two reviews. The 6600GT and Overclcoked 6600GT edging out the X700 pro is exactly how I stated more than once that I rank the cards. So no need to respond to the next few comments as that part of the review just backs up my opinion that I gave. But you opinions that X700> X1600 pro and X700 pro isn't close to 6600GT have both been proven wong. But good game anyway. ;) 

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since I was taking about the x700 in general you didn't need to get your undies in a bunch. Sheesh. :?

Well, saying X700 changes the whole story and makes you original X700>X1600pro comment even further off. Plus it's you who felt the need to say the X700 PRO I mentioned was not close to the 6600GT. And it's useless to talk about the series as we don't consider 6600 and 6600GT as equals to talk about either. It just adds confusion to compare 6600GT to the X700 series as a whole or the GF6600 series to the X700 pro. Actually I think X700 edges out GF6600 and GF6600GT edges out X700 pro. So IMO, 6600GT>X700pro>X700>GF6600.

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I guess if I wanted I could fish for a review of the BFG 6600GT that would lay waste to your x700pro, but I quite frankly don't really care too much. :D  they're both past their prime. As other posters have said, the 7600GT is a very attractive buy.

LOL, yeah I don't really care either. Wasting time over nothing really. :roll: But no need for the link as I have never made claims that a X700 pro is better than a 6600GT nor has it ever really been a good buy. I agree both cards are past their prime yet until we get a 7600GS priced near them, they are unfortunately among the only AGP cards available in the $100 up to X800GTO/Pro category. So in a way worth talking about for now.

ANyway, I just wanted to show you the link on how good X1600 pro did vs a X700 pro, and then I got a little surprised to be jumped on with a perceived attitude about the X700 pro is close to a 6600GT comment i made. If the attitude wasn't your intention, sorry to respond in such depth. I have no hard feelings and don't think we are far off in our thinking, but I do beleive you spoke up with those two comments without checking/knowing all the facts. And again I just don't know how X1600 pro stacks up to 6600GT. I'd love to see them compared but I do assume the 6600GT would win, just unsure how large a victory it would be. I also don't know if the X1600 pro could consistently beat the X700 pro. I call those two pretty equal with a tie going to the X1600 pro for features. Priced the same I'd buy the 6600GT or HIS Ice Q X1600 pro first, then the plain X1600 pro or X700 Pro Ice Q, and then the plain X700 pro. But that's just my personal pecking order as I like the Ice Q's and the game Flatout.

It' sad, longest reply of the year for me and it's about cards that are struggling at 10x7 medium detials in some of todays games. :lol: 
June 26, 2006 3:10:30 PM

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Any discussion of pricing must mention "brick and mortar" stores along with online sales.


Totally disagree with your there, Mach5.
When discussing best price, there is very little reason to talk 'brick and mortar' from what I have seen.
June 26, 2006 4:56:12 PM

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Any discussion of pricing must mention "brick and mortar" stores along with online sales.


Totally disagree with your there, Mach5.
When discussing best price, there is very little reason to talk 'brick and mortar' from what I have seen.
Agreed, most people who come to these forums do not shop at "brick and mortar" stores. The only time I go to BestBuy is when I feel like getting music the legal way. The only time I step into a PC shop is to go visit my friend who works at one or if I need a part immediately.

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I am getting ready for x800 pro vivo AGP card from e-bay, but when i went to a local store to get prices, the sales guy said to better get a 6600 nvidia card.

This is why I don't like going to "brick and mortar" shops.

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The one im trying to get from ebay is already moded to 16 pipes, it has bios flashed, and prise is arround $160. What do you guys think?

I wouldn't buy a "modded" graphics card from anyone on eBay. There's no telling what you could be getting into.
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