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SATA II: 3Gbs?

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June 29, 2006 6:06:37 AM

what application or what point is sata II running at this speed?
I have 2 300g seagate 7200rpm sata II and haven't been able to notice if things are running as they should.I am riding the short bus so keep responses simple for my I.Q. THANKS ALOT!!

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June 29, 2006 1:56:04 PM

Quote:
I am riding the short bus so keep responses simple for my I.Q. THANKS ALOT!!


Not for sure about an answer to your question, but that is funny!!!
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a b B Homebuilt system
June 29, 2006 1:57:32 PM

"what application or what point is sata II running at this speed?" Huh? I have no idea what your asking. If I had to guess, you are wondering if there is anyway to test your setup to see if everything is transfering at SATAII speeds. Even if you could find a program that does that, from what I understand no harddrive can fill the bandwith provided by ATA100/ATA133. SATA is 150, while SATAII is 300. The thing to remember about this is this is the "speed limit" of the highway your harddrive uses. If the "car" (ie the harddrive) can't go any faster then 80mbps, then why use the 300 lane? Just use ATA100/SATA150. (If you find a way to get the short bus up to 175, let me know...)
June 29, 2006 2:40:15 PM

Quote:
what application or what point is sata II running at this speed?
I have 2 300g seagate 7200rpm sata II and haven't been able to notice if things are running as they should.I am riding the short bus so keep responses simple for my I.Q. THANKS ALOT!!


The difference is theoretical. The data rates to and from the platters max out about 90 mb today. That doesn't even fully utilize Sata 1 at 150 mb. Until the data transfer rates are improved, Sata 2 at 300 mb is nothing more than an interesting number. Better to invest in a faster drive, 10,000 rpm, if you want faster performance.

Kind of like the car example. If a VW can go down the highway at the speed limit, what good does it do to have a Ferrari that can go much faster, but is limited to the same speed limit as the VW. OK, the Ferrari will probably attract more girls.
a b B Homebuilt system
June 29, 2006 6:34:28 PM

No offence, but there is a problem with your analogy. In your example, cars can do the speedlimit, but in reality, harddrives can't fill the bandwith provided by the ATA/SATA specs. A better example would involve taking mack trucks on the autobahn. Such a truck would not be able to drive fast enough for that road.
June 29, 2006 7:17:47 PM

Quote:
No offence, but there is a problem with your analogy. In your example, cars can do the speedlimit, but in reality, harddrives can't fill the bandwith provided by the ATA/SATA specs. A better example would involve taking mack trucks on the autobahn. Such a truck would not be able to drive fast enough for that road.


No offense taken. Perhaps it depends on what you define for the speed limit, the bandwidth or the data rate transfer. I was thinking of the data rate transfer being the limiting factor, or speed limit. Whichever way you look at it, until things change, SATA 2 offers no real advantage.
June 29, 2006 8:01:45 PM

An automotive-related example I often use for the SATA 150 vs. SATA 300 is dump trucks. Imagine you have a 4 lane highway, capable of passing 150 trucks per second. Then there's another highway that has 8 lanes and can support 300 trucks per second.

Sounds great, but the current speed of the quarry that loads up the trucks is only filling up 50 to 80 trucks per second, and while it's increasing, it's doing so at a very slow rate (about 5 years ago the limit was about 30-50 trucks per second). Sometimes there are bursts where the full capacity of a 150 truck-per-second of the four-lane, but this burst only lasts a fraction of a second since the bursts are depended upon building up some trucks before sending them out or having some pre-loaded trucks in a fixed-sized parking lot.

As such, even though the capacity for performance is much, much better with the 8 lane highway, the reality is that you won't see much difference if you choose the 4 lane or the 8 lane anytime in the future.

Hope this can clear some stuff up
a b B Homebuilt system
June 29, 2006 8:42:46 PM

Wow, perfect. If you can't understand that, you are in the back of the short bus....
June 29, 2006 9:21:07 PM

Will the new perpendicular drives increase this data rate any since the data takes up less space on the platters? Or does this just have to do w/ the amount that can be stored?
June 29, 2006 10:19:02 PM

Very good. You did a much better job then I did at explaining it. Now if only some way was found to increase the loading rate of the trucks.
June 29, 2006 10:30:29 PM

Both. With perpendicular storage technology, the areal (or surface) density is much increased, which means more data is fit into a smaller area. When the rotational speed of the drive remains the same, linear reads of data become faster as more data passes the heads with the same rotational speed.

About the only negative effect of the newer technology is a slightly higher-than-average access time (time required to locate a specific sector on the disk, this is the cause of the sound you hear when hard drives write data, the head moving around finding specific sectors) Here's a video that visually shows that proccess. However, the improvement in performance (at this point in time at least) is modest at best. There's a recent THG article that tests the 750 GB perpendicular drive against the standard drives of today.
June 29, 2006 10:33:25 PM

Aye, there's the rub! Currently, the only real options are to send trucks to more than one quarry (RAID's) and the modest gains seen with all this perpendicular jazz. Hard drives are one of the few areas of computing that just hasn't changed radically in a very long time.
June 29, 2006 10:37:36 PM

Before I begin, great analogy. Is it OK if I use it? (With proper credit to you, if I can remeber, lol.)

On the Perpindicular drive question, no. They are just putting the trucks sideways instead of making more of them come. With the trucks sideways just pack more in the same area. Confusing, but:

Read Rate

Write Rate

Nothing even going over 90MB/s....

~Ibrahim~
June 29, 2006 11:14:39 PM

Quote:
"what application or what point is sata II running at this speed?" Huh? I have no idea what your asking. If I had to guess, you are wondering if there is anyway to test your setup to see if everything is transfering at SATAII speeds. Even if you could find a program that does that, from what I understand no harddrive can fill the bandwith provided by ATA100/ATA133. SATA is 150, while SATAII is 300. The thing to remember about this is this is the "speed limit" of the highway your harddrive uses. If the "car" (ie the harddrive) can't go any faster then 80mbps, then why use the 300 lane? Just use ATA100/SATA150. (If you find a way to get the short bus up to 175, let me know...)


Skip ATA100/PATA/EIDE/whatever else they're marketing it as... as the rumor is that it will cease to be supported in large on future intel chipsets (which points to a probable trend). Anyhow, I've found that the SATA II drives are actually cheaper to buy or the smae price much of the time, no real reason to give SATA a preference over SATA II,just buy the cheapest one.
June 29, 2006 11:22:58 PM

I have a personal preference of SATA over IDE/PATA is because of the much thinner cables and newer boards only have one IDE channel, some thing people reserve for DVD Drives or Dual Drives...

~Ibrahim~
June 30, 2006 2:18:33 PM

Quote:
I have a personal preference of SATA over IDE/PATA is because of the much thinner cables and newer boards only have one IDE channel, some thing people reserve for DVD Drives or Dual Drives...

~Ibrahim~


You know, another funny thing I've found with SATA vs PATA: I had an old 200GB PATA disk in my old machine. I built my new machine, and decided that, since my main "disk" was a hardware RAID0, it'd be great to use the 200GB disk as a backup image disk, the only problem what that, as you mentioned, the motherboard only had 1 IDE channel. I then picked up a couple of SATA Channel <-> PATA disk converters and installed it in my machine. Worked great, I was happy.

I then, on a lark, wanted to test the disk bandwidth and compare it with the bandwidth it had in the old machine. Some stats of the old machine:
older DFI (pre-LAN Party, around the early Athlon period, SDRAM)
1.5 Gig of PC133 (yeah!)
200 GB Seagate 7200RPM, alone on primary

In the old system, it got about 40-43MB/s read speed from the disk (no reading from cache), In the new system, even with a converter in between, it was able to consistenly achieve 55MB/s+ using the same test (hdparm in linux). So, even with a converter in the mix, the performance was better than using it natively!

Just one more reason to never, ever get a PATA HDD if you can help it.
June 30, 2006 2:29:23 PM

Wow, that is nice! I was expecting it the other way around! 2 Points for SATA, nil for PATA, and we are entering the third inning here, folks.

~Ibrahim~
June 30, 2006 8:38:51 PM

Quote:
An automotive-related example I often use for the SATA 150 vs. SATA 300 is dump trucks. Imagine you have a 4 lane highway, capable of passing 150 trucks per second. Then there's another highway that has 8 lanes and can support 300 trucks per second.

Sounds great, but the current speed of the quarry that loads up the trucks is only filling up 50 to 80 trucks per second, and while it's increasing, it's doing so at a very slow rate (about 5 years ago the limit was about 30-50 trucks per second). Sometimes there are bursts where the full capacity of a 150 truck-per-second of the four-lane, but this burst only lasts a fraction of a second since the bursts are depended upon building up some trucks before sending them out or having some pre-loaded trucks in a fixed-sized parking lot.

As such, even though the capacity for performance is much, much better with the 8 lane highway, the reality is that you won't see much difference if you choose the 4 lane or the 8 lane anytime in the future.

Hope this can clear some stuff up


To add to this, SATA does not only bring faster interface, but feature.. so it is like the wider highway has better lighting and signalisation system too..

SATA2, or newer hdd has improved performance due to advance in electronic and mechanic over the year. Look at this like going from the first mechanical fuel injection to the new electronic fuel injection. same engine, but better performance in the latter.
July 1, 2006 3:50:57 AM

Haha, and of course hiring on the new manager to (native command) queue up the trucks for dispatch in a more efficient way.
July 1, 2006 4:06:52 AM

Quote:
Haha, and of course hiring on the new manager to (native command) queue up the trucks for dispatch in a more efficient way.


Don't forget..it takes drivers..
July 1, 2006 4:38:21 AM

Quote:
No offence, but there is a problem with your analogy. In your example, cars can do the speedlimit, but in reality, harddrives can't fill the bandwith provided by the ATA/SATA specs. A better example would involve taking mack trucks on the autobahn. Such a truck would not be able to drive fast enough for that road.


Or, rather, the maximum speed of the truck is not limited by the road.
!