Brown Bomber VS The Butterfly!

Popped into the local for a couple of pints last night and got into a discussion with a local bloke who's a bit of a boxing aficionado -- hardcore fanatic, more like it -- and I told him I thought Joe Louis was the best the world had seen because of his all-round capabilities in the ring; (I've watched quite a bit of boxing's best bouts and taken the time to read about some of the classics that went on before tv).

This bloke fired up! Called me a wanka with no idea and insisted that Ali was the greatest and would have had Joe's arse beat any day of the week -- even if both men were in their prime.

I called him a wanka back and I thought the bloke might take a shot but then his mate came over and realised that the bloke was only fooling; (and thank fock too because he looked like he'd seen his fair share of scraps.)

We sat down and kept on talking and it turns out that this bloke trains a very prominent Aussie boxer over here and as such he was able to give a very good account of why he thought Ali was the best, (even after I countered suggesting that Ali's defense was ordinary, this bloke insisted that nobody needs defense when you could move as fast as Ali).

Dont get me wrong, I think Ali was a superb craftsman in the ring -- but I still cant come at him being better than a young Joe Louis.

So, have a vote and put down a few comments on your "best of the best".

Fair point, except that I dont rate Mike in my top 5, although he would probably make my top 10.

The Tyson V Hollyfield bouts were tremendous and I took much from the Lennox Lewis onslaught that saw Mike bobbing and weaving but to no avail.

If I'd put Mike in then I'd have to put in Ken Norton and Leon Spinks and the like and I could never come at rating them the best the sport's ever seen.

Know who I want to see in a boxing ring?

Ali G & Mike Tyson. Now THAT will be entertaining...

I'm telling you Brett, Ali was the greatest fighter ever!!!!!!!

When Casis Clay won the Olympic Gold, he was the fastest heavyweight ever to walk into the ring..... Nobody could hit him!!!!! He would hit you from every angle, repeatedly & they couldn't touch him!!!! Fast????? I've never seen speed like that out of a Heavyweight!!!! He was light for a heavyweight at that time though..... Weighed in at 190 for most fights back than.....

Casis Clay's first fights as a pro were some of the greatest fights I've seen.... He was bad & didn't mind telling anyone he was a bad man!!!!! He alone turned the heavyweight division upside down.... He totally revolutionized the heavyweight division...... It was never the same before & after Ali, it's never been the same since.... For a pro to completely change the sport single handedly, you've got to be dam awful good!!!!!

Then the down time came for Casis..... He changed his name & got caught up in the Nam era..... He didn't go into the military & took his lumps for it.... He served his time & was done with it.......

Now he breaks back into the fight game as Mohamed Ali!!!!! He's still plenty fast, but has put on some weight..... He now weighs in at 210 to 220..... His punch is even more devastatingly than ever before..... He can take you out with either hand now...... Yea, he's slower, but his ring prowess is beyond compare.... He actually owns the ring!!!!! He predicts the round that his opponents are going down & delivers on it!!!!

Now for every great heavyweight there has to be a rival to bring out the best in a Champ!!!! Joe Frasier was that Man!!!! The greatest fights of Ali's career were against Joe Frasier.... Ali would stand in front of Joe & go toe to toe with him..... Course Joe was punching wind & Ali was scoring big punches!!!!! I always felt Joe Frasier was the second greatest fighter of all times.....

Ali more than likely took one too many fight.... His last outing was his worst beating in the ring...... His speed was gone along with his power..... I felt sorry for Ali in that fight!!!!! Such a great Man with all of it going & age, takes it away...... I still can't get that image out of my head, all these years later!!!!!!

Yea, Ali was the greatest heavyweight that has ever stepped into the ring!!!

I once posted about my going to Ali's training camp in the day.... I don't know if a search will find that thread or not..... Lets just say Ali was even bigger & badder up close & personal....... He was a showman at his training camps..... I will never, ever, forget the show Ali put on that day!!!!!

I haven't followed the heavyweights since..... Larry Holmes could have never beat Ali..... Larry was Ali's sparring partner & that was about it!!!!! I've felt that the heavyweights since Ali, couldn't have carried his jock strap!!!!

Totally Agree!

I'm talking from a purists perspective and that is technical ability in the ring.

I watched on DVD a full replay of the "rope-a-dope' bout last night and Ali's performance truly was something spectacular. Big George, amazingly enough, did punch himself out and tactically speaking, Ali owned that ring that night like no other before, or after him.

Of course. Its completely subjective.

you only say that because youre black....


[its just a joke so dont get angry over it]

O come on, that should not be necessary here in the other between regulars.

That's the one thing I didn't care for about Ali. He's there to box, not to sit back and let the other person wear themselves out.

What if the other person would just sit there and not throw any punches either?

Every game has its flaws.. and I think that should count against or get a penalty against someone who uses that style.

Delay of game per say.

I'm related to James "Gentleman Jim" Corbett.

Heavyweight back then was pushing 170lbs. They weren't the super athletes of today's day but the fights were amazing and had something today's fights don't.

Watching Snatch lately?

Oh my gosh. That's ludicrous, Rise. Truly ludicrous.

Ali was being pummeled by Foreman. George kept coming and had him on the ropes. Ali was winded, slightly hurt and really feeling his age. Remember, the two of them boxed those first two rounds solidly and then Ali went to the ropes in a show of tactical expertise and the young and inexperienced Foreman went after him.

Its not a "flaw"; its a stroke of genius to outbox his opponent in that fashion. I saw footage of Foreman on the 300lb bag; he was a monster with that thing. Ali took all that and more when Foreman had him on the ropes there.

Sounds like a retreat to me.

John Conteh.[/not in the slightest biased]

He was not only a skilled fighter but a genuine hard man. Black dude in Kirkby in them days had to be.

A tactical withdrawal huh?

# Brave Sir Robin ran away... #

Lies all lies, Kirkby is just like Balamory.[/worst lie ever]

Why, for the life of me, would an army retreat if they're strong?

And before Rise jumps all over me with stories about "deception" , may I remind you fellows that this particular warrior philosophy was, in truth, a Chinese work from 500 bc.

That's fine for archers, sling-shot throwers and cavalry, but I do wonder at the importance sometimes put on these ancient texts and their relevance to post-modern warfare; (or, ridiculously, the business world as one former manager insisted that we read it).

I wonder if Rise uses the text when he's dating...

i dont think the context was caught in that post.

not the whole army...

basically you have an ambush set so with a small group lead them into battle knowing before hand they will retreat to their armys vantage point, causing a trap and then the enemy is at a great disadvantage and more often the not surrounded...


i digress though...

Ah. Fair enough then.

Given your military expertise Phuks, then I happily acquiesce to your greater insight.

Riser using Tzu's work as a dating manual though really cracks me up just thinking about it. But then, I think about where the poor bloke lives and am somewhat not surprised that he feels he needs to master the art of war.

Toledo, Ohio. He constantly and consistently runs the place down.

Why you would think it to be the former is beyond me.

I'm a little testy this morning so you'll have to forgive me. I also have a very strong affiance when it comes to the US and all thats good about it; I've been a consistent supporter of the US etc on and off these boards.

I suppose I thought that if I'd said the "US" that you may have given me a patriotic "up yours Bomber", but I assure you, in thinking of my good mate Rise, I was only running Toledo down because of his own deprecatory remarks made about the place.

Yeah, I dont know what it is, but I'm having a shitty week. Have not been able to sell anything this week of substance. The business is struggling and I've got money concerns like you wouldn't believe (those bets I landed on the NFL playoffs will be needed to buy groceries and I'm off the horses too until the money is back in).

I've done up a budget and am off the booze until I get things rolling again.

I apologise there. I didn't mean to come off raw. To be frank, Turpit's remarks surprised me somewhat. I'm tired of people thinking that I'm a one-show pony, so to speak.

Its like this kid who used to come to the boards. He'd be like, "oh, you're just a boozing womaniser", but 90% of my life never gets put on these boards and he failed to see that it was just fun to talk about the tasty bits.

I dont know; I haven't had such a shitty week like this for ages.

I went on a date last night with an American feminist who is over here doing her doctorate and it went really well. It was the most stimulating conversation I've had in ages but it reminded me of how much I miss my degree's stimulus and the fact that I never made a real go of the knowledge I gained from uni; she made me feel inferior although it was I who was thinking that. She's good looking, smart as a whip and just great and I feel shitty today.