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Crossfire - does this work?

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July 11, 2006 5:28:07 PM

Is it useful to crossfire a x1900xtx and a x1600xtx? Or should I just stay with the single x1900xtx? Is there a decent increase in performance?

I'm planning a new rig and dont have money to buy 2 x1900xtx cards. . .

More about : crossfire work

July 11, 2006 5:31:09 PM

Even two X1900s might not be a big difference (over a single X1900).

A single X1900 is very good now. I suggest you get a X1800XT, and save up money for a DX10 card.
July 12, 2006 12:11:01 AM

prozac i think he meant 1x x1900 + 1x x1600...
that is a definate nono. not gonna work
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July 12, 2006 12:30:43 AM

Quote:
Is it useful to crossfire a x1900xtx and a x1600xtx? Or should I just stay with the single x1900xtx? Is there a decent increase in performance?

I'm planning a new rig and dont have money to buy 2 x1900xtx cards. . .


Perhaps you should check out ATI's Crossfire FAQ. It states the following:

Quote:

6. What happens when you pair a 12-pipe CrossFire Edition card with a 16-pipe card?

A. In this scenario both cards will operate as 12-pipe cards while in CrossFire mode.


Now, I've seen the X1900 described as a 16 pipeline card with 48 shader operations. One poster on another thread claimed the above FAQ only dealt with the X800 series cards, but the cards listed in the FAQ refer to the X1600, X1900 and X1600's as well.

You'd be basically buying an X1900 Crossfire card and using it alongside an inexpensive X1600XT. You can't use a regular X1900 XTX because only the X1300 and X1600 cards do Crossfire in software mode, the X1800's and X1900's need a Crossfire card and a Crossfire ready card like the X1800XT or X1900XT or XTX.

You're best bet would be a single X1900XTX now, but if you wanted cheap Crossfire, two X1600XTs in Crossfire mode would work and they can be used for physics when DirectX 10 cards become available. You can then do Crossfire plus physics on a 3 PCIe x16 board. You'd get something around an X1800XL's speed in performance with two X1600XTs. Is it worth it? You decide. I just wouldn't try using an X1900 Crossfire card with an X1600XT.
July 12, 2006 2:18:01 AM

I suggest just using the single X1900 for now. If the X1600 and X1900 both work fine in crossfire mode, one of them (Being the 1900) will actually have to go down in speed to match the X1600.

You would be limiting the X1900's capability because it would have to run slower like the 1600.
a b U Graphics card
July 12, 2006 2:36:44 AM

Quote:

Now, I've seen the X1900 described as a 16 pipeline card with 48 shader operations. One poster on another thread claimed the above FAQ only dealt with the X800 series cards, but the cards listed in the FAQ refer to the X1600, X1900 and X1600's as well.


I never claimed any such thing, but you ignorantly think that the X1600 is the same as an X1800 or X1900, and you don't get the idea of a pipeline versus shader unit.

Seriously, stop posting BS!

As my exact quote is as follows;
Actually you should read the context of the question, that' s 800Pro with and X800XT, not X1600 with X1800/1900.

and

I know what you were attempting, but you're confused, and your first false assumption was the previous line, the second is that ATi is talking about something othe than crossfiring two cards of the same series (ie X800 with X800 ; X1300 with X1300).


And that's what that question was refering to not adding two disimilar design together ie an X1600 with an X1800/1900. In no way did I say it ONLY dealt with the X800.
Perhaps if you actually READ what people wrote, you'd have a better understanding as to why what you are saying, and what the OP is asking for is not a supported function of crossfire.

Quote:
You'd be basically buying an X1900 Crossfire card and using it alongside an inexpensive X1600XT.


And get nothing, because it doesn't work.
Why don't you crossfire it with a RageFuryPro? :roll:

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You can't use a regular X1900 XTX because only the X1300 and X1600 cards do Crossfire in software mode, the X1800's and X1900's need a Crossfire card and a Crossfire ready card like the X1800XT or X1900XT or XTX.


Actually the X1800GTO doesn't need a master card, but you still can't Crossfire it with an X1600.

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I just wouldn't try using an X1900 Crossfire card with an X1600XT.


Yeah I don't think anyone would because without the software support you wouldn't ever be able to render it correctly even with supertiling.

Seriously stop posting on this issue, you don't know what you're talking about and cut & paste bits and pieces to make a collage of the impossible BS. :roll:
a b U Graphics card
July 12, 2006 2:57:31 AM

Quote:
I suggest just using the single X1900 for now. If the X1600 and X1900 both work fine in crossfire mode, one of them (Being the 1900) will actually have to go down in speed to match the X1600.


Wanna post something to suport that claim.
ATi specifically states that they must be the same series, ie X1600 with X1600 , X1800 with X1800, X1900 with X1900.

Quote:
You would be limiting the X1900's capability because it would have to run slower like the 1600.


The cards don't have to run slower they have to disable functional units to perform the same, however they do not do this to allow cross generational gaps, gotta be the same kind of card. Even then you can't Xfire some cards like the AllInWonder series.

Their 'unupdated' (no mention of X1800GTO) list show this basic principal;
July 12, 2006 3:00:50 AM

and with Crossfire systems, both cards operate at individual MHz speed, they do not have to downspeed, so the slower card of the same series does not drag performance down... :roll:
a b U Graphics card
July 12, 2006 3:14:00 AM

Exactly they both operate at their stock speeds.

The other thing I find freakin' hillarious is think of what they are suggesting.

The X1900 would dsiable 3/4 of it's shader units & 'pipelines' in or to double the performance of an X1600 (essentially acting like 2 x1600s). So in effect by adding 1 card you can more than halve your performance. BRILLIANT! :roll:

Next they're gonna put it with and X1300HM in order to 1/4 the memory and 1/12th the performance. :twisted:
July 12, 2006 3:19:18 AM

The only card you can use in a Crossfire configuration with a 1900XTX is a Crossfire 1900. But I don't think its worthwhile, myself,
July 12, 2006 3:21:55 AM

Quote:

The X1900 would dsiable 3/4 of it's shader units & 'pipelines' in or to double the performance of an X1600 (essentially acting like 2 x1600s). So in effect by adding 1 card you can more than halve your performance. BRILLIANT! :roll:


No, no, that's what I was trying to say about the "speed". I know they both would still run at their own individual core / memory speeds, but the X1900 would be bottlenecked essentially and wouldn't perform to it's full potential.
July 13, 2006 12:26:34 AM

Quote:

I never claimed any such thing, but you ignorantly think that the X1600 is the same as an X1800 or X1900, and you don't get the idea of a pipeline versus shader unit.

Seriously, stop posting BS!

As my exact quote is as follows;
Actually you should read the context of the question, that' s 800Pro with and X800XT, not X1600 with X1800/1900.


The context of the question, just read the FAQ, does not state that the specific comment relates to the X800 series. It's simply part of the overall ATI FAQ. My point of view is that people can read the information linked and weigh it in comparison to other articles and take any off the cuff explanation on a message board with a grain of salt, mine, yours and everyone else's included.

I did not claim that an X1600 is the same as an X1800. I said it was derived from the X1800 core and not the X1900. The X1900 seems more unique in handling shaders, sort of a step towards unified architecture that we'll actually see on DX10 compliant cards.

I do know the difference between shader quads and pipelines. yet the four quad units on the X1800XT equal 16 pixel shader pipelines and are reported as such. I felt you were being needlessly technical. It's not just sites selling the cards, but Neoseeker's table describes it as such:

Quote:

X1600XT:

Architecture: RV530
Pipelines: 12


The X1300 has 4 pixel pipelines, not the X1600 Pro or XT. Yes, I know the article continues a discussion of the X1000 series architecture (using an X1800 class card as an example:

Quote:

· Shader Model 3 Support
· 8 vertex shaders, up from 6 in the RADEON X850 XT PE
· 4 Pixel Shading Quads for a total of 16 pixel pipelines
· 16 Texture Units
· 16 Render Back Ends (not shown on the diagram)


For all practical purposes, this is effectively described as 16 pixel pipelines in tech articles, while ATI's website calls it 12 shader operators. It's very much like a discussion of Intel's quad pumped FPS which describes an 800fsb instead of a 200 quad pumped. When 4 pixel shading quads equal 16 pipelines on the X1800XT, then what's your problem?

You did not link to articles. You simply trolled, which means you threatened to come over and blah blah blah. That's so typical of the internet. I don't mind learning from the more technically savvy than I am but I refuse to learn from an idiot who does not back up their claim.

Also, you mentioned (paraphrased) 'just get a couple of X1800GTOs". I was not aware that they were capable of Crossfire software operation like the X1300 and X1600 (the X1600XT is IMHO, the lowest end viable Crossfire as reports equate it to a single X1800XL). ATI's page on the X1800GTO mentions it has 12 pixel shaders.

Edited to add that I did more research and ATI does not make it as clear on their FAQ. Bit Tech says that the X1800GTO does not need a Crossfire card. ATI needs to update their FAQ info.

Quote:

From Bit Tech:

The Radeon X1800GTO is essentially a crippled R520 - it has the same eight vertex shaders, but only three of the four quads of pixel shaders are enabled. This means that there are only twelve functional pipelines along with twelve pixel output engines. The card comes with 256MB of memory connected to R520's 256-bit memory interface (eight 32-bit channels) running at 990MHz DDR. Incidentally, the X1800GTO's core speed is the same as the Radeon X1800XL's, too.

Despite the reduction in the number of quads being used, the Radeon X1800GTO still runs hot to the touch. Hopefully, ATI's board partners will steer away from the cooling solution on this card - the frequent change of pitch is annoying enough to leave a bad taste in the mouth. It could also prove to be even noisier when two Radeon X1800GTO's are running side by side in CrossFire mode. X1800GTO CrossFire will not require an external dongle or a special CrossFire edition master card either, when ATI releases Catalyst 6.5. Another thing to note is that the card is considerably larger than the GeForce 7600 GT and requires supplementary power, too.


Anandtech reports that the X1900GT can also communicate over the PCIe bus and does not need a Master card or a dongle, but both the X1800GTO and X1900GT take a mild performance hit:
Quote:

Also interesting to note is that two X1900 GT cards can be run in CrossFire mode using the PCI Express bus to transmit data between the cards. This does result in a performance penalty relative to the dongle cable of the higher end CrossFire configurations, but the lower prices are certainly a plus.


My biggest disappointment is that the X1800XL AIW and the X1900 AIW are not Crossfire ready. That would be my preferred solution. One All in Wonder card and a regular gaming version of the same generation. Perhaps by DX10.

I think the argument over pipelines as reported is academic. If cards are sold and reviewed (ie at Tom's, Anandtech etc) as 12 or 16 pixel pipelines. The reference on so many sites seems to be a holdover from the days before GPUs, when pipelines, and clockspeed, were much more important than they are today when things are more programmable.
July 13, 2006 4:46:42 AM

Quote:
It's not just sites selling the cards, but Neoseeker's table describes it as such:


X1600XT:

Architecture: RV530
Pipelines: 12


The X1300 has 4 pixel pipelines, not the X1600 Pro or XT.


Neoseeker is wrong.

The X1600 has 4 TMUs and 12 Pixel processors. It is not a 12-pipeline card, it is not a 4 pipeline card, as a 'pipeline' is a Pixel shader dedicated to a TMU.

The X1600 is somewhere in between, which is why in reality it performs closer to an 8-pipe card than anything else... but it's not a 12-pipe card, even though it's constantly mis-referred to as such, even by 'reliable' sources.
a b U Graphics card
July 13, 2006 6:07:26 AM

Quote:

I did not claim that an X1600 is the same as an X1800. I said it was derived from the X1800 core and not the X1900.


It's not derived from the X1800 core, they are completely different designs.
And like I said in the other thread, if anything is more close to the X1900 in design with the 'unbalanced' design, which has nothing to do with DX10, and if you're trying to go there, it has nothing to do with a unified design either.

Quote:
I felt you were being needlessly technical.


When you're wrong I'm sure you would feel that way.

Quote:
It's not just sites selling the cards, but Neoseeker's


Like cleeve mentoned they're wrong. Few early reviews understood the way the design worked. It unbalanced so it can give more ops with less transistors, and really until the R580 came out few people understood how that worked, and even then many reviews mistakenly called them 48 pipelines, even THG.

Quote:
For all practical purposes, this is effectively described as 16 pixel pipelines in tech articles, while ATI's website calls it 12 shader operators. It's very much like a discussion of Intel's quad pumped FPS which describes an 800fsb instead of a 200 quad pumped. When 4 pixel shading quads equal 16 pipelines on the X1800XT, then what's your problem?


MY problem is you don't understand what you're talking about, and you're telling people they can Xfire an X1600 with an X1800 and X1900, which ATi says you can't (and there's no benifit to it). That's my problem. Your inability to understand that to comprise a 'pipeline' in the old term you need a texture unit for each one, and while I will cal them 4 pipes 4 brevity, Cleeve is right there's really no such thing anymore. But even if using the old terminology the X1600 is 12 shaders units and 4 pipes, not the 12 pipes you keep calling it.

Quote:
You did not link to articles.



I already did that in the previous thread, and you still didn't get the point, obviously.

Here they are again, starting with the core designs (X1600 does not resemble X1800 in balancing units);
http://www.tomshardware.com/2005/10/06/ati_enters_the_x...

"Radeon X1000 architecture de-couples components of the rendering pipeline."

B3D goes on to explain in detail the mistake of most people with regards to the X1600;

http://www.beyond3d.com/reviews/ati/r580/

"It wasn't until RV530 (Radeon X1600) was fully understood did these descriptions become clearer as to their intent; with a configuration signalled on the roadmap as 4-1-3-2 for RV530 it become clear that the numbers represented the number of "pipelines" (even though ATI's engineering didn't like this terminology), the number of texture units per pipeline, parallel shader ALUs per pipeline and the number of Z samples per pipeline."

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You simply trolled, which means you threatened to come over and blah blah blah.


Threatened nothing, simply called you the idjit that you are being, when posting information you obviously know nothing about. You end up giving people false hope telling them you can do things ATi says you can't.

Quote:
That's so typical of the internet. I don't mind learning from the more technically savvy than I am but I refuse to learn from an idiot who does not back up their claim.


You refuse to learn, that's obvious. I back up my claim and you ran from the other thread. You still hold on to the mistakes of other reviewers and never actually learn what people are telling you. I was nice at first, but your resitance to understand that the X1600 has 12 shader units not 12 pipelines show you're not interested in learning you just want to defend your ignorant assumptions about Xfiring an X1600 and 1800/1900.

Also, you mentioned (paraphrased) 'just get a couple of X1800GTOs". I was not aware that they were capable of Crossfire software operation like the X1300 and X1600 (the X1600XT is IMHO, the lowest end viable Crossfire as reports equate it to a single X1800XL). [/quote]

Where are you getting than an X1600XT equates to a single X1800XL. Maybe 2 in Crossfire, but not "it" a singular X1600XT. And the X1800GTO is below an X1800XL, but is capable of dongle-less Xfire.

Quote:
Edited to add that I did more research and ATI does not make it as clear on their FAQ...Bit Tech says that the X1800GTO does not need a Crossfire card. ATI needs to update their FAQ info.
[/url]

Yes, obviously to specifically restate that the same series means no X1300+X1600, no X1600+X1800/1900. Because people like you are imply going to give people hope of doing something that isn't supported, and that's gonna mess people up.

Quote:
The reference on so many sites seems to be a holdover from the days before GPUs, when pipelines, and clockspeed, were much more important than they are today when things are more programmable.


And if you understand how those errors occur, understand why your perpetuating them makes things harder. Even by the old standards, those descrptions don't hold water. It was excuseable in the first few weeks of the X1K series, it's not acceptable now.

Quote:
I think the argument over pipelines as reported is academic. If cards are sold and reviewed (ie at Tom's, Anandtech etc) as 12 or 16 pixel pipelines.


Except it doesn't matter how many times Anand messes up, it's still WRONG! When the R580 review here was misnamed, we fought to correct that error. And there's a reason, because it's wrong, and creates issues when discussing technical aspects as we see with your string of posts and resistance to understand that other people's mistakes and your repeating them could easily cost people money in building expectations that will never occur. Understand one thing, you call me a troll, that's fine, you wrong and ignorant about it, and as long as you keep repeating it I will troll every oneof your posts and drum you out of the forum because what you're doing is detrimental to other readers. Stop perpetuating other peple's mistakes and I'll ignore you like I do many other posters. I'm not going out of my way to harass you but it's targeting your misinformation.
July 14, 2006 8:30:19 AM

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The only card you can use in a Crossfire configuration with a 1900XTX is a Crossfire 1900. But I don't think its worthwhile, myself,


Just want to add a quick thing here, u actually don't need to use a dedicated card because they are producing X1900XTX crossfire ready cards
!