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Ati RV560 (X1700) to support AGP

Last response: in Graphics & Displays
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July 12, 2006 9:29:32 PM

Wow, one last stab at the AGP market:

http://www.theinquirer.org/default.aspx?article=32987

Looks like it'll be quicker than a stock 7800 GS... this should make the AGPers happy a bit longer.
a b U Graphics card
July 12, 2006 9:30:43 PM

BA$$TURDZ!

AGP SUCKS! DIE Die die ! :twisted:
a b U Graphics card
July 12, 2006 9:33:05 PM

Long Live the King! :p 
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a b U Graphics card
July 12, 2006 9:34:24 PM

Good deal; thankums for the link. This explains the X8xx AGP dumping that has started on shop ATI.
a b U Graphics card
July 12, 2006 9:38:17 PM

Quote:
This explains the X8xx AGP dumping that has started on shop ATI.


NAh, they're dumping cause.... AGP SUX! :twisted:
July 12, 2006 9:53:40 PM

WOOOO!!!

PCI GRAPHICS OWNZ!!
a b U Graphics card
July 12, 2006 9:56:19 PM

you sir are too cruel. :evil: 

Wonder what a 7800GS equivilent or better one of these puppies will cost. close to a X1900XT? :roll:
July 12, 2006 9:57:49 PM

Quote:


Looks like it'll be quicker than a stock 7800 GS...

Where did it say that?

If anything, I believe it will be pointing it's sights at the 7600GT, what with it's 128bit memory bus and all.

Good news I think regardless of a certain someones negativity in this thread :evil:  :roll: :wink:
July 12, 2006 10:00:16 PM

Quote:
This explains the X8xx AGP dumping that has started on shop ATI.


NAh, they're dumping cause.... AGP SUX! :twisted:

I'm with APE AGP = Die Then were gonna hear it in February. "Why wont ATI make an AGP X2000????" ---/cry me a river


That aside, one last hurrah I see. I wonder if this card will be an actual contender, or a flop?
July 12, 2006 10:09:48 PM

Quote:


Looks like it'll be quicker than a stock 7800 GS...

Where did it say that?

If anything, I believe it will be pointing it's sights at the 7600GT, what with it's 128bit memory bus and all.

Didn't say it anywhere, I figured it out on my lonesome.

I think it's a 12 TMU/36 shader part... even with the 128-bit disadvantage, with decent memory I believe it's clockspeeds will beat out a stock 7800 GS in the AGP arena. But you're right, in PCIe it'll probably be taking on the 7600 GT, I'd reckon beating it, too.

But that's stock... overclocked the 7800 GS has the 256-bit interface that might keep it at the top spot, making very little incentive for overclockers like yourself to migrate. It'll be an interesting battle, I'll see if I can review 'em. :wink:
a b U Graphics card
July 12, 2006 10:10:32 PM

Quote:

Good news I think regardless of a certain someones negativity in this thread :evil:  :roll: :wink:


ARGH! Crazy AGP users, where's the sense of adventure! :twisted:

You have a board with AGP and PCIe your next upgrade better be to a PCIe G80/ER600 or I'm gonna send you a PCupgrading book... after reading it myself of course. :mrgreen:

Long live ISA! :twisted:

Anywhoo, if I'm gonna bump this might as well have some fun with it, not like my PCIe MRX700 would come close to your GF7800GS. But haha I can shut down lanes when I don't need them, try that on your AGP! Power conservation! I moving to Intel Extreme graphics to become more efficient. :tongue:

Ok, can you tell the N2O from the dentist is still in effect? :lol: 
a b U Graphics card
July 12, 2006 10:12:23 PM

I hope they are shooting for the (North American) AGP crown here and not just a cheaply manufactured attractive AGP alternative. Sounds like with 128-bit they may be trying to squeeze the 7800GS in price rather than outright beat it in performance. who knows, the 7600GT impressed us with 128-bit, but it's still leaves a sour taste, at least a little bit anyway. I'll be dissapointed in less than 7800GS/X850XTpe level performance. If it's clocked near it's limits just to edge out a 7800GS, I know it won't be on your wish/recommend list. I can almost picture the 128-bit no OC potential comments already. :wink:
a b U Graphics card
July 12, 2006 10:14:01 PM

I think it's going to be a tough call, the stock GF7800GS is kinda slow compared to what it could be (heck if they put the GDDR4 on the X1700 then it might have the same bandwidth),

But the Oc'ed GF7800GS and the Gainward beauties are another story.

Alot of this will come down to price IMO.

If they can sell these for under $249 as a launch price, then there'll still be an attraction, beyond that I think we'll be back to our 'better to get a new mobo and PCIe card instead' depending on the setup the person has at the time. IMO GW should still get a G80/R600, but then again there may be a new MAtrox or XGI by then. :twisted:
July 12, 2006 10:27:02 PM

But.....this is from theinquirer?????
July 12, 2006 10:36:26 PM

Whats the X1700 based on? Downgraded 1800 or upgraded 1600 or what..?
a b U Graphics card
July 12, 2006 10:48:26 PM

New chip, but should resemble an X1900GT in design somewhat.
July 13, 2006 2:56:58 AM

So I guess there's a suspicious gap for a 8 pipeline, 24 shader part. I still can't tell what the RV550 is, although it's suppose to have full HDMI support along with the RV570. Why the RV560 doesn't have it when it's basically just a RV570 with a 128-bit memory interface is beyond me.

Anyways, where are those new 80nm mobile parts? A RV560 would also make a great mid-range AIW card which I would also be interested in.
a b U Graphics card
July 13, 2006 5:18:42 AM

Well if you think about how they are going to implement HDCP/HDMI in this round, there's nothing saying it can't have it if the Board partners want to add the required hardware.

Look at the X1600, didn't launch with it but now has it.

As for mobile parts, that'd be great, also be nice if it can get 1080P acceleration, which isn't supported in the X1600 with AVIVO.
July 13, 2006 5:24:41 AM

I'm going to switch it up and stir the pot a little bit here...

More info from our good friends @ the Inq.

http://theinq.com/default.aspx?article=32901


EDIT: Dual internal bridges for Crossfire perhaps?

Its a single slot solution, thats taking a huge guess by browsing @ the layout of the card. But I dont think thats our 80nm part...Digital PMW....I've been wrong many a times before. But like I said, I dont think were going to be seeing the die shrink as quickly as we'd all like to think we are.

2nd EDIT: Grape, Cleeve, data, Pauldh...I'm no where near tired, so somebody has to stay up and begin to theorize with me on this one....come on fellas...get a can of redbull and stay awake damnit :lol:  :lol:  :lol: 

Just doing some more offhand thinking...does anybody remember the Post R300 strike force?

It was ATI's new 3 card lineup. Basically to refresh the R9, 96 and 9700.
So what I'm thinking is this...ATI has two big weak area's....the X1600 and the X1900GT in terms of its production costs and performance.

So I think the RV570 will be the X1700 both AGP and PCI-E.
So think of it like this.... 9000-->9200 9500--->9600

Hellfire 1 and Hellfire 2

The RV570 will pick up where the X1600 fails and the RV+ will phase out the expensive (R580 based) X1900GT...

So Im guessing, a new chip design X1900GT line, and an AGP & PCI-E X1700.....makes sense looking @ ATI's history.
July 13, 2006 5:58:38 AM

I have failed you sir.

Off to bed. :) 
July 13, 2006 5:59:51 AM

Cleeve!! Damn you!!!

No soup for you one year!!! :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol: 


Well: I'm not going to sleep, but I'm sure as hell not going to stay here.
I'm heading out for some fun, we'll discuss this later fellas...peace.
a b U Graphics card
July 13, 2006 6:28:49 AM

Quote:

EDIT: Dual internal bridges for Crossfire perhaps?


Dual 'INERNAL' bridges? Wouldn't that be 'external'?

Quote:
Its a single slot solution, thats taking a huge guess by browsing @ the layout of the card. But I dont think thats our 80nm part...Digital PMW....I've been wrong many a times before. But like I said, I dont think were going to be seeing the die shrink as quickly as we'd all like to think we are.


Well here's the thing, you really can't tell by chip alone, but they've been talking about volumes at TSMC and UMC so really one would except the new chips to be 80nm, although if it's the same size as an R580, and they haven't added any special tweaks then really it's unlike that it'd be a move to 80nm for that part since it should be less transistors without something 'extra'.

Quote:
It was ATI's new 3 card lineup. Basically to refresh the R9, 96 and 9700.
So what I'm thinking is this...ATI has two big weak area's....the X1600 and the X1900GT in terms of its production costs and performance.


Well that would be the area the X1700 was intended to target.
But if the chip is about the same size as an R580 then you won't reduce production costs much unless you have greatly improved yields.

Quote:
So I think the RV570 will be the X1700 both AGP and PCI-E.
So think of it like this.... 9000-->9200 9500--->9600


Except the inverse where the R9500P was the one that encroached on the top cards performance, whereas this new chip may outperform the X1800 series.

Quote:
The RV570 will pick up where the X1600 fails and the RV+ will phase out the expensive (R580 based) X1900GT...


Yes the RV570 should finally offer what people expected of the X1600 and got from the GF7600, but like I mentioned if the chips is still almost as big, there won't be much costs savings.

Quote:
So Im guessing, a new chip design X1900GT line, and an AGP & PCI-E X1700.....makes sense looking @ ATI's history.


True, although I'm still a bit surprised that they are going AGP, this will offer a final solution for people waiting for their Conroe/AM2 system, etc.
But if this comes out in October it's unlikely to have many 'must have' users left who are waiting to upgrade something else.

If they do make an X1900GT+ level performer then you could easily say you have a competing part with the GF7800GS and no longer have a hole in your lineup, but just like X850Xfire IMO it would simply be a 'PR part' meant to fill a gap that may be exploited with system builders and OEM partners.
July 14, 2006 3:12:58 AM

ATI does literally have a strike force planned. The cores they are working on right now include the

RV505CE 80nm X1300 die shrink 64-bit memory interface
RV505 80nm X1300 die shrink 128-bit memory interface
RV516 90nm? UMC produced X1300 128-bit memory interface
RV535 80nm X1600 die shrink 128-bit memory interface RV550,
RV550 80nm? super X1600 or crippled RV560, HDMI/HDCP support
RV560 80nm 12 pipelines/36 PS 128-bit memory interface
RV570 80nm 12 pipelines/36 PS 256-bit memory interface
R580+ 90nm X1900 tweak with GDDR4 support

Needless to say, combined with the current RV515, R520, RV535, and R580 cores and all their derivatives ATI's product line is very comprehensive and a mess.

What I can say is that the X1800GTO will be replaced by the RV560. The RV560 will presumably be the X1700. The X1800XL and 256MB X1800XT will be replaced by the RV570XL. The 512MB X1800XT and X1900GT will be replaced by the RV570XT. I'm not quite sure why the RV570XT is speculated to be called the X1900GT when the product already exists.

As you mentioned compared to the R580 core in the X1900GT, the RV570 core doesn't appear much smaller. That's probably because although they cut out 4 pipelines, they had to integrate the Crossfire controller and extra HDMI features.

I think I've mentioned this before but I'd like to see the cores named as follows for clarity:

RV580+ X1950 replace X1900
RV570XT X1850XT replace X1900GT/X1800XT
RV570XL X1850XL replace X1800XL
RV560 X1750 replace X1800GTO
RV535 X1650 replace X1600
RV505 X1350 replace X1300
RV505CE X1250 replace X1300HM, hopefully X300 also

Essentially, all the new cores use the X1x50 notation so that they can be easily identified. The only exceptions are the RV550 and the RV516. The RV516 appears to be exactly the same as the RV515 X1300, just produced by UMC so they can maintain the X1300 name. The RV550 is news to me and kind of throws the system out of wack. It could be the X1700 if it's really a big enough family with many variants. If it's just one model, it can be a X1750GT or maybe vanilla X1750 with the RV560 being the Pro and XT variants (seeing that XL isn't used in the mainstream parts).

In regards to AGP cards, the highest will probably be the RV560 as The Inquirer reports. Personally, I would have like to see ATI use the remaining R520 X1800 cores in a more "limited edition" AGP release instead of wasteing them all in crippled X1800GTO configurations. I suppose they could do that with the remaining R580 cores once the R580+ is out.

In terms of AIW parts, I'd like to see a RV505 solution for the low-end replacing the AIW 2006 Edition, a RV560 solution for a new mid-range part, and a R580+ solution replacing the X1900 AIW. Hopefully they don't clock it so low this time which was the case for both the AIW 2006 Edition and the X1900 AIW.

For Mobile, I'd like to see a RV505 derivative to be the Mobility X1350, and Mobility X1450 (replace Mobility X1300 and Mobility X1400), a RV535 derivative to be the Mobility X1650 (replace Mobility X1600), a RV560 derivative to be the Mobility X1750 (replace Mobility X1800), and a R580+ derivative to be the Mobility X1950 (replace Mobility X1800XT).

In terms of power, the Mobility X1750 really aught to be a 8 pipeline/24 shader part instead of the 12 pipeline/36 shader part in order to conserve power. There doesn't seem to be a 8 pipelie/24 shader planned for the desktop market though.

I should note that although the RV560 and RV570 look like great parts with lots of shaders, I'm still concerned about their weakness in TMUs. Unless ATI has further tweaked their TMUs, I can't see the RV570XT beating the X1800XT on average for instance just as the current X1900GT doesn't do it now. I'm thinking that the RV570 will also have fewer VS, probably 6 instead of 8, and smaller buffers than the R580 X1900GT, which will further make it more difficult to outperform the X1800XT. That said the RV570XT looks to have very high core clock speeds at 650MHz, but is reported to have lower memory clock speeds at 1100MHz (compared to the X1900GT), so it's hard to tell.

Anyways, there's the speculation that you wanted. I ended being a day late though.
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