Metamerism - do Canon printers suffer?

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

My Epson R200 prints seem to suffer terrible metamerism - do Canon printers
suffer too?

Si.
19 answers Last reply
More about metamerism canon printers suffer
  1. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    I haven't seen any significant metamerism with the 200 when used on
    suitable papers and with the correct settings for the target paper.
    Which doesn't seem surprising given that the 200 uses dye and not
    pigment inks. I have seen situations where the gradation to the
    darkest blacks doesn't look smooth until the inks are fully dry, and
    I've seen very bad results with cheap papers used with high volume ink
    settings, but I still wouldn't call either of them 'metamerism'.
  2. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    "missingdata" <clayschn@fast.net> wrote in message
    news:1115326474.061484.11310@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
    >I haven't seen any significant metamerism with the 200 when used on
    > suitable papers and with the correct settings for the target paper.
    > Which doesn't seem surprising given that the 200 uses dye and not
    > pigment inks. I have seen situations where the gradation to the
    > darkest blacks doesn't look smooth until the inks are fully dry, and
    > I've seen very bad results with cheap papers used with high volume ink
    > settings, but I still wouldn't call either of them 'metamerism'.
    >

    R200, Epson premium glossy - horrible magenta cast when viewed under
    tungsten. Fine in daylight - held at the window.

    Si.
  3. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    "Si." <dontbother@spammingthis.address> wrote in message
    news:d5e6lk$bnu$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk...
    >
    > "missingdata" <clayschn@fast.net> wrote in message
    > news:1115326474.061484.11310@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
    > >I haven't seen any significant metamerism with the 200 when used on
    > > suitable papers and with the correct settings for the target paper.
    > > Which doesn't seem surprising given that the 200 uses dye and not
    > > pigment inks. I have seen situations where the gradation to the
    > > darkest blacks doesn't look smooth until the inks are fully dry, and
    > > I've seen very bad results with cheap papers used with high volume ink
    > > settings, but I still wouldn't call either of them 'metamerism'.
    > >
    >
    > R200, Epson premium glossy - horrible magenta cast when viewed under
    > tungsten. Fine in daylight - held at the window.
    >
    > Si.
    >
    >

    R200, Epson premium glossy -- absolutely no cast under tungsten, fluorescent or
    daylight, even in jet black areas of the prints. Are you sure it is 'real'
    epson premium glossy? [and are you sure it's printed on the side that doesn't
    say 'EPSON'??]
  4. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    It is quite rare that dye colorant inks suffer from metamerism,
    especially these days. Can you describe what is happening. I think you
    may be confusing the term.

    Which colors are being altered, and under what conditions exactly?

    Art

    Si. wrote:

    > My Epson R200 prints seem to suffer terrible metamerism - do Canon printers
    > suffer too?
    >
    > Si.
    >
    >
  5. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    What you have described is not metamerism, what you state is color
    shifting. ALL prints show some color shifting, because the components
    of the "white" light you are using as your source for illumination
    differ. Tungsten lamps give off a lot of red (yellow and magenta if you
    please) and so the red is more obvious.

    I have noticed that some Epson papers take a few hours/even a day to
    settle down, and for the magenta to fully integrate into the surface,
    depending upon the paper.

    Does it only seem to occur with Premium glossy? What about photo glossy
    for instance? If it is specific to one paper, you should speak to Epson
    about it. Is it in a certain density within the print, or over all
    ranges? I would try slightly backing off on the magenta in the density
    area it is most distasteful. Just be ware that all prints respond to
    differing lighting, and unless you know you are printing for viewing
    under a specific light spectrum, you may never find perfection.

    Art


    Si. wrote:

    > "missingdata" <clayschn@fast.net> wrote in message
    > news:1115326474.061484.11310@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
    >
    >>I haven't seen any significant metamerism with the 200 when used on
    >>suitable papers and with the correct settings for the target paper.
    >>Which doesn't seem surprising given that the 200 uses dye and not
    >>pigment inks. I have seen situations where the gradation to the
    >>darkest blacks doesn't look smooth until the inks are fully dry, and
    >>I've seen very bad results with cheap papers used with high volume ink
    >>settings, but I still wouldn't call either of them 'metamerism'.
    >>
    >
    >
    > R200, Epson premium glossy - horrible magenta cast when viewed under
    > tungsten. Fine in daylight - held at the window.
    >
    > Si.
    >
    >
  6. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    I was wondering if the OP sees the magenta cast in white areas with no
    ink as well... it could be a failure of the "whitening"/UV agents in
    the paper. Or maybe there are 3rd party inks involved?

    Art

    SamSez wrote:

    > "Si." <dontbother@spammingthis.address> wrote in message
    > news:d5e6lk$bnu$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk...
    >
    >>"missingdata" <clayschn@fast.net> wrote in message
    >>news:1115326474.061484.11310@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
    >>
    >>>I haven't seen any significant metamerism with the 200 when used on
    >>>suitable papers and with the correct settings for the target paper.
    >>>Which doesn't seem surprising given that the 200 uses dye and not
    >>>pigment inks. I have seen situations where the gradation to the
    >>>darkest blacks doesn't look smooth until the inks are fully dry, and
    >>>I've seen very bad results with cheap papers used with high volume ink
    >>>settings, but I still wouldn't call either of them 'metamerism'.
    >>>
    >>
    >>R200, Epson premium glossy - horrible magenta cast when viewed under
    >>tungsten. Fine in daylight - held at the window.
    >>
    >>Si.
    >>
    >>
    >
    >
    > R200, Epson premium glossy -- absolutely no cast under tungsten, fluorescent or
    > daylight, even in jet black areas of the prints. Are you sure it is 'real'
    > epson premium glossy? [and are you sure it's printed on the side that doesn't
    > say 'EPSON'??]
    >
    >
  7. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    "SamSez" <samtheman@verizon.net> wrote in message
    news:_jzee.18443$yd1.2141@trndny01...
    > R200, Epson premium glossy -- absolutely no cast under tungsten,
    > fluorescent or
    > daylight, even in jet black areas of the prints. Are you sure it is
    > 'real'
    > epson premium glossy? [and are you sure it's printed on the side that
    > doesn't
    > say 'EPSON'??]
    >
    >

    Oh, it's a good job my belt's done up tighlty - I might have split my sides
    laughing.

    Si.
  8. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    "Arthur Entlich" <e-printerhelp@mvps.org> wrote in message
    news:GBIee.69048$3V3.17567@edtnps89...
    > What you have described is not metamerism, what you state is color
    > shifting. ALL prints show some color shifting, because the components of
    > the "white" light you are using as your source for illumination differ.
    > Tungsten lamps give off a lot of red (yellow and magenta if you please)
    > and so the red is more obvious.
    >
    > I have noticed that some Epson papers take a few hours/even a day to
    > settle down, and for the magenta to fully integrate into the surface,
    > depending upon the paper.
    >
    > Does it only seem to occur with Premium glossy? What about photo glossy
    > for instance? If it is specific to one paper, you should speak to Epson
    > about it. Is it in a certain density within the print, or over all ranges?
    > I would try slightly backing off on the magenta in the density area it is
    > most distasteful. Just be ware that all prints respond to differing
    > lighting, and unless you know you are printing for viewing under a
    > specific light spectrum, you may never find perfection.
    >
    > Art
    >

    Thanks for the more serious response Art. I tend to stick with premium
    glossy because I find it gives the best print overall, except that is for
    the colour shift. I used the term metamerism after reading the article here
    http://www.fineartgicleeprinters.org/metamerismEpsoninkjetprinters/greenish_metamerismproblems.htm

    Si.
  9. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    "Arthur Entlich" <e-printerhelp@mvps.org> wrote in message
    news:zoIee.69047$3V3.34354@edtnps89...
    > It is quite rare that dye colorant inks suffer from metamerism, especially
    > these days. Can you describe what is happening. I think you may be
    > confusing the term.
    >
    > Which colors are being altered, and under what conditions exactly?
    >
    > Art
    >

    Tend to notice it a lot in blues which take on a magenta cast under
    tungsten, which then disappears if I take the print to a window and view it
    in daylight.....

    Si.
  10. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    "Si." <dontbother@spammingthis.address> wrote in message
    news:d5gs1j$g29$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
    >
    > "Arthur Entlich" <e-printerhelp@mvps.org> wrote in message
    > news:zoIee.69047$3V3.34354@edtnps89...
    > > It is quite rare that dye colorant inks suffer from metamerism, especially
    > > these days. Can you describe what is happening. I think you may be
    > > confusing the term.
    > >
    > > Which colors are being altered, and under what conditions exactly?
    > >
    > > Art
    > >
    >
    > Tend to notice it a lot in blues which take on a magenta cast under
    > tungsten, which then disappears if I take the print to a window and view it
    > in daylight.....
    >
    > Si.
    >
    >

    Sorry, I thought you knew what metamerism meant and weren't confused by the fact
    that a white piece of paper doesn't look the same under daylight as it does
    under incandescent.

    And, oh yeah, plonk.
  11. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    In article <d5drdj$as0$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk>,
    "Si." <dontbother@spammingthis.address> wrote:

    > My Epson R200 prints seem to suffer terrible metamerism

    http://tinyurl.com/bp75x
  12. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    I believe there are some error in that article sited.

    Metamorism is, in the most simple form, when two samples of a color look
    the same under one lighting but different in another. For example, you
    take two samples of black fabric to make a suit. In the factory the two
    colors look like the same black color, and your pattern cutter cuts the
    fabric and makes a suit from two bolts of fabric. The suit is ut
    together and it looks greet in the factory, under the factory lighting.

    Then the suits go to Bloomingdales or Sears, or whatever, and the buyer
    is shocked. Randomly, in their offices the left lapel is a neutral gray
    black, but the right lapel looks purple-black.

    That is metamerism.

    In inkjet printers, it is VERY rare to fine it in dye inks. It is
    mainly a pigment colorant issue, and you will notice in the article you
    sited, the printers, the 2000P and the 7500 are both durabrite ink
    (pigment colorant).

    The problem in the Durabrite inks was mainly the yellow ink, which
    tended to go "greenish in some lighting conditions, while showing a
    normal yellow in others.

    It seems to have something to do with the pigment particles and how they
    reflect the different light frequencies back. Epson's first repair was
    to change the dot pattern, which did help. However, ultimately they
    changes the yellow pigment formulation.

    The newer Ultra chrome color inks show very minimal metamorism, again
    the yellow was the problem, and they had to go with a less stable
    pigment to accomlish that, but it lowered the age permanence of the ink set.

    Again, you need to try to identify in which areas of the print, the
    problem occurs, which lighting, which ink density,. is the whole page
    involved or only printed area, etc.

    Again, I have not seen metamorism in dye inks, but perhaps something new
    will come of this.


    Art
  13. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    Take a good look at a blank sheet and see if you notice any differences
    like what you saw before. This may be a case of a bad mix of optical
    brighteners within the paper. Again, keep the print dry well before
    trying any other testing.

    Si. wrote:

    > "Arthur Entlich" <e-printerhelp@mvps.org> wrote in message
    > news:zoIee.69047$3V3.34354@edtnps89...
    >
    >>It is quite rare that dye colorant inks suffer from metamerism, especially
    >>these days. Can you describe what is happening. I think you may be
    >>confusing the term.
    >>
    >>Which colors are being altered, and under what conditions exactly?
    >>
    >>Art
    >>
    >
    >
    > Tend to notice it a lot in blues which take on a magenta cast under
    > tungsten, which then disappears if I take the print to a window and view it
    > in daylight.....
    >
    > Si.
    >
    >
  14. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    Good reference, thanks. I'm keeping a copy on hand.

    Art

    Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:

    > In article <d5drdj$as0$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk>,
    > "Si." <dontbother@spammingthis.address> wrote:
    >
    >
    >>My Epson R200 prints seem to suffer terrible metamerism
    >
    >
    > http://tinyurl.com/bp75x
  15. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    "Arthur Entlich" <e-printerhelp@mvps.org> wrote in message
    news:Wj1fe.39370$vN2.8419@clgrps13...
    > I believe there are some error in that article sited.
    >
    > Metamorism is, in the most simple form, when two samples of a color look
    > the same under one lighting but different in another.

    Hi Arthur,

    While on the subject of definitions...

    Could you also tell us what the technical term is for the variation in gloss
    between printed and unprinted areas? It's usually most noticable on
    black/dark areas. Many people seem to call that Metamerism in error.

    Thanks,

    Colin
  16. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    Typically, it is referred to as "bronzing", because the dark areas tend
    to show up as a bronze or greenish metallic color when viewed on the
    side angle.

    It only occurs with dye inks (or pigments which have a dye component added).

    HP has done a great deal of scientific research into this phenomenon and
    come up with some formulations to lessen it. It is in part due to the
    difficulty in making a truly black dye. Most are mixes of several deep
    colors which are balanced, so for instance a deep red and a deep green
    might be used together to make a fairly neutral "black". In general,
    the reflection tends to be a dichroic color of the transmissive color.
    There is actually a far amount of complex physics involved in how the
    light is filtered and passes back through the surface. A dark blue dye
    might have a golden yellow reflection, for instance.

    Art

    CWatters wrote:

    > "Arthur Entlich" <e-printerhelp@mvps.org> wrote in message
    > news:Wj1fe.39370$vN2.8419@clgrps13...
    >
    >>I believe there are some error in that article sited.
    >>
    >>Metamorism is, in the most simple form, when two samples of a color look
    >>the same under one lighting but different in another.
    >
    >
    > Hi Arthur,
    >
    > While on the subject of definitions...
    >
    > Could you also tell us what the technical term is for the variation in gloss
    > between printed and unprinted areas? It's usually most noticable on
    > black/dark areas. Many people seem to call that Metamerism in error.
    >
    > Thanks,
    >
    > Colin
    >
    >
  17. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    CWatters wrote:

    >"Arthur Entlich" <e-printerhelp@mvps.org> wrote in message
    >news:Wj1fe.39370$vN2.8419@clgrps13...
    >
    >
    >>I believe there are some error in that article sited.
    >>
    >>Metamorism is, in the most simple form, when two samples of a color look
    >>the same under one lighting but different in another.
    >>
    >>
    >
    >Hi Arthur,
    >
    >While on the subject of definitions...
    >
    >Could you also tell us what the technical term is for the variation in gloss
    >between printed and unprinted areas? It's usually most noticable on
    >black/dark areas. Many people seem to call that Metamerism in error.
    >
    >Thanks,
    >
    >Colin
    >
    >

    More noticeable on Epson pigmented printers. That is why the newer ones
    have a gloss optomizer.

    >
    >
    >
  18. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    "Arthur Entlich" <e-printerhelp@mvps.org> wrote in message
    news:Xynfe.1277367$8l.1187142@pd7tw1no...
    > Typically, it is referred to as "bronzing", because the dark areas tend
    > to show up as a bronze or greenish metallic color when viewed on the
    > side angle.
    <snip>

    Thanks. I've not noticed a colour tint just a different surface gloss. Right
    now I'm using an Epson 2100 (Pigment ink) to print onto TDK glossy photo
    paper. I get a reasonably uniform gloss finish except on blank (eg white)
    areas. White areas appear slightly less gloss than the printed areas.

    I shouldn't really complain though because the results as so good otherwise
    and it isn't very noticable. I must do more research to find out what
    technology TDK use. I'm planning to do my own life test comparison (vs
    Epson) because the print quality has been so good..

    Colin
  19. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    I'm sorry, I misunderstood your description, and that was my error. What
    I referred to was bronzing, but what you refer to is a dulling of the
    surface from pigmented inks. It is the reason the 2200 offers two types
    of black ink, one for glossy and one for matte applications.

    And why Epson came up with a gloss coating for their new Ultrachrome
    inks for the R800 and R1800.

    I don't know that that this phenomena has a name.


    CWatters wrote:

    > "Arthur Entlich" <e-printerhelp@mvps.org> wrote in message
    > news:Xynfe.1277367$8l.1187142@pd7tw1no...
    >
    >>Typically, it is referred to as "bronzing", because the dark areas tend
    >>to show up as a bronze or greenish metallic color when viewed on the
    >>side angle.
    >
    > <snip>
    >
    > Thanks. I've not noticed a colour tint just a different surface gloss. Right
    > now I'm using an Epson 2100 (Pigment ink) to print onto TDK glossy photo
    > paper. I get a reasonably uniform gloss finish except on blank (eg white)
    > areas. White areas appear slightly less gloss than the printed areas.
    >
    > I shouldn't really complain though because the results as so good otherwise
    > and it isn't very noticable. I must do more research to find out what
    > technology TDK use. I'm planning to do my own life test comparison (vs
    > Epson) because the print quality has been so good..
    >
    > Colin
    >
    >
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