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Metamerism - do Canon printers suffer?

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Anonymous
May 6, 2005 12:17:07 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

My Epson R200 prints seem to suffer terrible metamerism - do Canon printers
suffer too?

Si.
Anonymous
May 6, 2005 12:17:08 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

I haven't seen any significant metamerism with the 200 when used on
suitable papers and with the correct settings for the target paper.
Which doesn't seem surprising given that the 200 uses dye and not
pigment inks. I have seen situations where the gradation to the
darkest blacks doesn't look smooth until the inks are fully dry, and
I've seen very bad results with cheap papers used with high volume ink
settings, but I still wouldn't call either of them 'metamerism'.
Anonymous
May 6, 2005 3:28:43 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

"missingdata" <clayschn@fast.net> wrote in message
news:1115326474.061484.11310@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>I haven't seen any significant metamerism with the 200 when used on
> suitable papers and with the correct settings for the target paper.
> Which doesn't seem surprising given that the 200 uses dye and not
> pigment inks. I have seen situations where the gradation to the
> darkest blacks doesn't look smooth until the inks are fully dry, and
> I've seen very bad results with cheap papers used with high volume ink
> settings, but I still wouldn't call either of them 'metamerism'.
>

R200, Epson premium glossy - horrible magenta cast when viewed under
tungsten. Fine in daylight - held at the window.

Si.
Related resources
Anonymous
May 6, 2005 4:59:38 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

"Si." <dontbother@spammingthis.address> wrote in message
news:D 5e6lk$bnu$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> "missingdata" <clayschn@fast.net> wrote in message
> news:1115326474.061484.11310@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> >I haven't seen any significant metamerism with the 200 when used on
> > suitable papers and with the correct settings for the target paper.
> > Which doesn't seem surprising given that the 200 uses dye and not
> > pigment inks. I have seen situations where the gradation to the
> > darkest blacks doesn't look smooth until the inks are fully dry, and
> > I've seen very bad results with cheap papers used with high volume ink
> > settings, but I still wouldn't call either of them 'metamerism'.
> >
>
> R200, Epson premium glossy - horrible magenta cast when viewed under
> tungsten. Fine in daylight - held at the window.
>
> Si.
>
>

R200, Epson premium glossy -- absolutely no cast under tungsten, fluorescent or
daylight, even in jet black areas of the prints. Are you sure it is 'real'
epson premium glossy? [and are you sure it's printed on the side that doesn't
say 'EPSON'??]
Anonymous
May 6, 2005 3:18:55 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

It is quite rare that dye colorant inks suffer from metamerism,
especially these days. Can you describe what is happening. I think you
may be confusing the term.

Which colors are being altered, and under what conditions exactly?

Art

Si. wrote:

> My Epson R200 prints seem to suffer terrible metamerism - do Canon printers
> suffer too?
>
> Si.
>
>
Anonymous
May 6, 2005 3:32:54 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

What you have described is not metamerism, what you state is color
shifting. ALL prints show some color shifting, because the components
of the "white" light you are using as your source for illumination
differ. Tungsten lamps give off a lot of red (yellow and magenta if you
please) and so the red is more obvious.

I have noticed that some Epson papers take a few hours/even a day to
settle down, and for the magenta to fully integrate into the surface,
depending upon the paper.

Does it only seem to occur with Premium glossy? What about photo glossy
for instance? If it is specific to one paper, you should speak to Epson
about it. Is it in a certain density within the print, or over all
ranges? I would try slightly backing off on the magenta in the density
area it is most distasteful. Just be ware that all prints respond to
differing lighting, and unless you know you are printing for viewing
under a specific light spectrum, you may never find perfection.

Art


Si. wrote:

> "missingdata" <clayschn@fast.net> wrote in message
> news:1115326474.061484.11310@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
>>I haven't seen any significant metamerism with the 200 when used on
>>suitable papers and with the correct settings for the target paper.
>>Which doesn't seem surprising given that the 200 uses dye and not
>>pigment inks. I have seen situations where the gradation to the
>>darkest blacks doesn't look smooth until the inks are fully dry, and
>>I've seen very bad results with cheap papers used with high volume ink
>>settings, but I still wouldn't call either of them 'metamerism'.
>>
>
>
> R200, Epson premium glossy - horrible magenta cast when viewed under
> tungsten. Fine in daylight - held at the window.
>
> Si.
>
>
Anonymous
May 6, 2005 3:56:52 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

I was wondering if the OP sees the magenta cast in white areas with no
ink as well... it could be a failure of the "whitening"/UV agents in
the paper. Or maybe there are 3rd party inks involved?

Art

SamSez wrote:

> "Si." <dontbother@spammingthis.address> wrote in message
> news:D 5e6lk$bnu$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
>>"missingdata" <clayschn@fast.net> wrote in message
>>news:1115326474.061484.11310@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>>I haven't seen any significant metamerism with the 200 when used on
>>>suitable papers and with the correct settings for the target paper.
>>>Which doesn't seem surprising given that the 200 uses dye and not
>>>pigment inks. I have seen situations where the gradation to the
>>>darkest blacks doesn't look smooth until the inks are fully dry, and
>>>I've seen very bad results with cheap papers used with high volume ink
>>>settings, but I still wouldn't call either of them 'metamerism'.
>>>
>>
>>R200, Epson premium glossy - horrible magenta cast when viewed under
>>tungsten. Fine in daylight - held at the window.
>>
>>Si.
>>
>>
>
>
> R200, Epson premium glossy -- absolutely no cast under tungsten, fluorescent or
> daylight, even in jet black areas of the prints. Are you sure it is 'real'
> epson premium glossy? [and are you sure it's printed on the side that doesn't
> say 'EPSON'??]
>
>
Anonymous
May 7, 2005 3:38:49 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

"SamSez" <samtheman@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:_jzee.18443$yd1.2141@trndny01...
> R200, Epson premium glossy -- absolutely no cast under tungsten,
> fluorescent or
> daylight, even in jet black areas of the prints. Are you sure it is
> 'real'
> epson premium glossy? [and are you sure it's printed on the side that
> doesn't
> say 'EPSON'??]
>
>

Oh, it's a good job my belt's done up tighlty - I might have split my sides
laughing.

Si.
Anonymous
May 7, 2005 3:43:32 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

"Arthur Entlich" <e-printerhelp@mvps.org> wrote in message
news:GBIee.69048$3V3.17567@edtnps89...
> What you have described is not metamerism, what you state is color
> shifting. ALL prints show some color shifting, because the components of
> the "white" light you are using as your source for illumination differ.
> Tungsten lamps give off a lot of red (yellow and magenta if you please)
> and so the red is more obvious.
>
> I have noticed that some Epson papers take a few hours/even a day to
> settle down, and for the magenta to fully integrate into the surface,
> depending upon the paper.
>
> Does it only seem to occur with Premium glossy? What about photo glossy
> for instance? If it is specific to one paper, you should speak to Epson
> about it. Is it in a certain density within the print, or over all ranges?
> I would try slightly backing off on the magenta in the density area it is
> most distasteful. Just be ware that all prints respond to differing
> lighting, and unless you know you are printing for viewing under a
> specific light spectrum, you may never find perfection.
>
> Art
>

Thanks for the more serious response Art. I tend to stick with premium
glossy because I find it gives the best print overall, except that is for
the colour shift. I used the term metamerism after reading the article here
http://www.fineartgicleeprinters.org/metamerismEpsonink...

Si.
Anonymous
May 7, 2005 3:45:30 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

"Arthur Entlich" <e-printerhelp@mvps.org> wrote in message
news:zoIee.69047$3V3.34354@edtnps89...
> It is quite rare that dye colorant inks suffer from metamerism, especially
> these days. Can you describe what is happening. I think you may be
> confusing the term.
>
> Which colors are being altered, and under what conditions exactly?
>
> Art
>

Tend to notice it a lot in blues which take on a magenta cast under
tungsten, which then disappears if I take the print to a window and view it
in daylight.....

Si.
Anonymous
May 7, 2005 4:07:34 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

"Si." <dontbother@spammingthis.address> wrote in message
news:D 5gs1j$g29$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> "Arthur Entlich" <e-printerhelp@mvps.org> wrote in message
> news:zoIee.69047$3V3.34354@edtnps89...
> > It is quite rare that dye colorant inks suffer from metamerism, especially
> > these days. Can you describe what is happening. I think you may be
> > confusing the term.
> >
> > Which colors are being altered, and under what conditions exactly?
> >
> > Art
> >
>
> Tend to notice it a lot in blues which take on a magenta cast under
> tungsten, which then disappears if I take the print to a window and view it
> in daylight.....
>
> Si.
>
>

Sorry, I thought you knew what metamerism meant and weren't confused by the fact
that a white piece of paper doesn't look the same under daylight as it does
under incandescent.

And, oh yeah, plonk.
Anonymous
May 7, 2005 5:18:33 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

In article <d5drdj$as0$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk>,
"Si." <dontbother@spammingthis.address> wrote:

> My Epson R200 prints seem to suffer terrible metamerism

http://tinyurl.com/bp75x
Anonymous
May 7, 2005 3:07:34 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

I believe there are some error in that article sited.

Metamorism is, in the most simple form, when two samples of a color look
the same under one lighting but different in another. For example, you
take two samples of black fabric to make a suit. In the factory the two
colors look like the same black color, and your pattern cutter cuts the
fabric and makes a suit from two bolts of fabric. The suit is ut
together and it looks greet in the factory, under the factory lighting.

Then the suits go to Bloomingdales or Sears, or whatever, and the buyer
is shocked. Randomly, in their offices the left lapel is a neutral gray
black, but the right lapel looks purple-black.

That is metamerism.

In inkjet printers, it is VERY rare to fine it in dye inks. It is
mainly a pigment colorant issue, and you will notice in the article you
sited, the printers, the 2000P and the 7500 are both durabrite ink
(pigment colorant).

The problem in the Durabrite inks was mainly the yellow ink, which
tended to go "greenish in some lighting conditions, while showing a
normal yellow in others.

It seems to have something to do with the pigment particles and how they
reflect the different light frequencies back. Epson's first repair was
to change the dot pattern, which did help. However, ultimately they
changes the yellow pigment formulation.

The newer Ultra chrome color inks show very minimal metamorism, again
the yellow was the problem, and they had to go with a less stable
pigment to accomlish that, but it lowered the age permanence of the ink set.

Again, you need to try to identify in which areas of the print, the
problem occurs, which lighting, which ink density,. is the whole page
involved or only printed area, etc.

Again, I have not seen metamorism in dye inks, but perhaps something new
will come of this.


Art
Anonymous
May 7, 2005 3:11:19 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

Take a good look at a blank sheet and see if you notice any differences
like what you saw before. This may be a case of a bad mix of optical
brighteners within the paper. Again, keep the print dry well before
trying any other testing.

Si. wrote:

> "Arthur Entlich" <e-printerhelp@mvps.org> wrote in message
> news:zoIee.69047$3V3.34354@edtnps89...
>
>>It is quite rare that dye colorant inks suffer from metamerism, especially
>>these days. Can you describe what is happening. I think you may be
>>confusing the term.
>>
>>Which colors are being altered, and under what conditions exactly?
>>
>>Art
>>
>
>
> Tend to notice it a lot in blues which take on a magenta cast under
> tungsten, which then disappears if I take the print to a window and view it
> in daylight.....
>
> Si.
>
>
Anonymous
May 7, 2005 3:49:16 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

Good reference, thanks. I'm keeping a copy on hand.

Art

Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:

> In article <d5drdj$as0$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk>,
> "Si." <dontbother@spammingthis.address> wrote:
>
>
>>My Epson R200 prints seem to suffer terrible metamerism
>
>
> http://tinyurl.com/bp75x
Anonymous
May 8, 2005 3:00:30 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

"Arthur Entlich" <e-printerhelp@mvps.org> wrote in message
news:Wj1fe.39370$vN2.8419@clgrps13...
> I believe there are some error in that article sited.
>
> Metamorism is, in the most simple form, when two samples of a color look
> the same under one lighting but different in another.

Hi Arthur,

While on the subject of definitions...

Could you also tell us what the technical term is for the variation in gloss
between printed and unprinted areas? It's usually most noticable on
black/dark areas. Many people seem to call that Metamerism in error.

Thanks,

Colin
Anonymous
May 8, 2005 4:25:27 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

Typically, it is referred to as "bronzing", because the dark areas tend
to show up as a bronze or greenish metallic color when viewed on the
side angle.

It only occurs with dye inks (or pigments which have a dye component added).

HP has done a great deal of scientific research into this phenomenon and
come up with some formulations to lessen it. It is in part due to the
difficulty in making a truly black dye. Most are mixes of several deep
colors which are balanced, so for instance a deep red and a deep green
might be used together to make a fairly neutral "black". In general,
the reflection tends to be a dichroic color of the transmissive color.
There is actually a far amount of complex physics involved in how the
light is filtered and passes back through the surface. A dark blue dye
might have a golden yellow reflection, for instance.

Art

CWatters wrote:

> "Arthur Entlich" <e-printerhelp@mvps.org> wrote in message
> news:Wj1fe.39370$vN2.8419@clgrps13...
>
>>I believe there are some error in that article sited.
>>
>>Metamorism is, in the most simple form, when two samples of a color look
>>the same under one lighting but different in another.
>
>
> Hi Arthur,
>
> While on the subject of definitions...
>
> Could you also tell us what the technical term is for the variation in gloss
> between printed and unprinted areas? It's usually most noticable on
> black/dark areas. Many people seem to call that Metamerism in error.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Colin
>
>
Anonymous
May 8, 2005 5:42:00 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

CWatters wrote:

>"Arthur Entlich" <e-printerhelp@mvps.org> wrote in message
>news:Wj1fe.39370$vN2.8419@clgrps13...
>
>
>>I believe there are some error in that article sited.
>>
>>Metamorism is, in the most simple form, when two samples of a color look
>>the same under one lighting but different in another.
>>
>>
>
>Hi Arthur,
>
>While on the subject of definitions...
>
>Could you also tell us what the technical term is for the variation in gloss
>between printed and unprinted areas? It's usually most noticable on
>black/dark areas. Many people seem to call that Metamerism in error.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Colin
>
>

More noticeable on Epson pigmented printers. That is why the newer ones
have a gloss optomizer.

>
>
>
Anonymous
May 8, 2005 8:53:18 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

"Arthur Entlich" <e-printerhelp@mvps.org> wrote in message
news:Xynfe.1277367$8l.1187142@pd7tw1no...
> Typically, it is referred to as "bronzing", because the dark areas tend
> to show up as a bronze or greenish metallic color when viewed on the
> side angle.
<snip>

Thanks. I've not noticed a colour tint just a different surface gloss. Right
now I'm using an Epson 2100 (Pigment ink) to print onto TDK glossy photo
paper. I get a reasonably uniform gloss finish except on blank (eg white)
areas. White areas appear slightly less gloss than the printed areas.

I shouldn't really complain though because the results as so good otherwise
and it isn't very noticable. I must do more research to find out what
technology TDK use. I'm planning to do my own life test comparison (vs
Epson) because the print quality has been so good..

Colin
Anonymous
May 11, 2005 9:31:21 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

I'm sorry, I misunderstood your description, and that was my error. What
I referred to was bronzing, but what you refer to is a dulling of the
surface from pigmented inks. It is the reason the 2200 offers two types
of black ink, one for glossy and one for matte applications.

And why Epson came up with a gloss coating for their new Ultrachrome
inks for the R800 and R1800.

I don't know that that this phenomena has a name.


CWatters wrote:

> "Arthur Entlich" <e-printerhelp@mvps.org> wrote in message
> news:Xynfe.1277367$8l.1187142@pd7tw1no...
>
>>Typically, it is referred to as "bronzing", because the dark areas tend
>>to show up as a bronze or greenish metallic color when viewed on the
>>side angle.
>
> <snip>
>
> Thanks. I've not noticed a colour tint just a different surface gloss. Right
> now I'm using an Epson 2100 (Pigment ink) to print onto TDK glossy photo
> paper. I get a reasonably uniform gloss finish except on blank (eg white)
> areas. White areas appear slightly less gloss than the printed areas.
>
> I shouldn't really complain though because the results as so good otherwise
> and it isn't very noticable. I must do more research to find out what
> technology TDK use. I'm planning to do my own life test comparison (vs
> Epson) because the print quality has been so good..
>
> Colin
>
>
!