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Hard Drive Qs/Dilemma on Raptors and Sata (II)

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July 15, 2006 12:55:40 PM

Hi all,

I am looking to upgrade my system in the near future, and probably to Conroe, as it is now obvuiosly King of the Hill.

However I have not got enough money to a complete rehall of my system just at this moment (3500+ venice, asus a8n-sli deluxe, 6200TC GPHX, 1gb gskill ram ddr400).

So I think I am going to upgrade in steps with components that will be surported on both rigs.

First I think I would benefit the most from upgrading my IDE 160gb Seagate Barracuda to maybe a Raptor and a big sata hard drive?

The speed applications open, and windows boot, is very important to me, so I think a Raptor is the only way.

I am not sure which to get, it will be for all application and windows, so I doubt Ill actually use much more than 20-25gb. These are my following thoughts:

The 36gb Raptor seems to be the oldest without recent revision and seems to be regarded as the noisest and worst as its one of the first Raptors? Although its still offers great performance, the more recent raptors are probably better?
The 74gb seems more recent and is not much more expensive? Also it will be a little quicker because I will use up a smaller % of the space?
The 150gb Raptor X thing seems great, and is the newest one, (and the windowed ones look damn cool!). I'm semi tempted to possibly get this and do away with any other hard drive and maybe store my bulk media and stuff on DVDs and stuff or maybe an external drive. . .I'm not sure though. I don't thnk I can justifiy the cost though, and I do access my media and stuff often. . I couldnt afford this and another hard drive as well.

Backing Up is no problem for me – (so I dont really want Raid 1, or have a problem with just 1 hard drive) – as I have a 'syncronisation' type setup in which the important 'my documents 'folder is the same on my Laptop, so if either crashed I would have the other one – a bit like Raid 1. (I use the program 'Allway Sync' by the way incase anyones interested.)

I currently have around £600 for another computer, so I can't go to Conroe and afford things just yet.(got monitor) So I don't want to spend too much now. .on the hard drive part.

With regards to my current hard drive – a 160gb IDE Seagate barracuda 7200.9 7200rpm, is it worth selling this and moving to SATA II or something? I could do with no chunky IDE cable that is affecting my air flow and cable tidyness. Would I see performance gain with a similar sized Sata?

So my questions:

1.Which Raptor is the best value for money and the best for me?
2.Should I sell my IDE Seagate hd, and go for a newer Sata one?
3.In a system with an Antec Smartpower II 500w, two fans, and a passively cooled video card, will the raptors be noisier enough to be heard?

Thanks for any advice,
Hope I'm not being stupid on the subject :) 
July 17, 2006 3:31:08 PM

I just created a "personal server" for myself to use for whatever I can come up with, and put in 2-74 gb Raptor drives in RAID 0. In my Lian-Li case (which is totally silent with 2-12 cm fans) I can't hear my hard drives working at all, which is saying something since the system is quiet to start. The entire system is silent, quieter than a quiet ceiling fan.

1. The 150 gb version is no faster performance wise than the 74, and you only want to use 20-25 gb anyway so I would go with a 74 gb version - the $100+ difference could get you a 250gb+ storage drive.
2. The IDE drive would be fine, but upgrading to SATAI/II would lessen the number of IDE devices/channels you need (a plus, since they are slowly but surely going away). And getting a 74gb Raptor would let you add a 250gb+ SATA drive.
3. As per what I originally wrote, you shouldn't be able to hear the Raptors - I can't hear the *2* in my silent system. If you do heavily hard-disk intensive things such as video encoding, you may hear it working, but typical day to day applications you shouldn't notice it.
July 17, 2006 4:47:41 PM

Quote:
I just created a "personal server" for myself to use for whatever I can come up with, and put in 2-74 gb Raptor drives in RAID 0. In my Lian-Li case (which is totally silent with 2-12 cm fans) I can't hear my hard drives working at all, which is saying something since the system is quiet to start. The entire system is silent, quieter than a quiet ceiling fan.

1. The 150 gb version is no faster performance wise than the 74, and you only want to use 20-25 gb anyway so I would go with a 74 gb version - the $100+ difference could get you a 250gb+ storage drive.
2. The IDE drive would be fine, but upgrading to SATAI/II would lessen the number of IDE devices/channels you need (a plus, since they are slowly but surely going away). And getting a 74gb Raptor would let you add a 250gb+ SATA drive.
3. As per what I originally wrote, you shouldn't be able to hear the Raptors - I can't hear the *2* in my silent system. If you do heavily hard-disk intensive things such as video encoding, you may hear it working, but typical day to day applications you shouldn't notice it.


Thanks for the info.

Ok, I've kinda decided on 1 Raptor WD-740GD but am not sure about choosing which specs -

The WD740GD-00FLC0 seems clearly the best revision, but now 16mb of cache ones are out. . I am in the UK and can only really find one 16mb of cache one that doesnt seem to be too expensive. .it will be the newest model if its 16mb of cache won't it?

here:

http://www.scan.co.uk/Products/Prod...roductID=410986

This seem good?

And can I just check that my 500W Antec Smartpower II will be fine with the following -

Asus A8N-SLI Deluxe MB
Athlon 3500+ Venice @2.53ghz
1x 1gb G-Skill 3,3,3,8 @220mhz
Seagate Barracuda 160gb 7200rpm 7200.9
1x Raptor 74gb 16mb Cache
Creative Sound Blaster Live 5.1 Digital
Geforce 6200TC
USB - A memory card reader, wireless optical mouse, and a printer
NEC ND3540a DVD+-RW

Probably in the wrong place, but would my psu be fine for that? Its fine for what ive got currently but im yet to get the Raptor obviously.

I probably will sell my IDE Seagate and go for a Sata to help with case tidyness .. .
Related resources
July 17, 2006 5:15:29 PM

From my experience, the 16 mb cache versions are cheaper than the 8 mb cache... at least it was when I bought mine 4 weeks ago. Your link doesn't work, doesn't look to be the complete address... I don't know $->English pound translation, but around $170 is a good price for a Raptor (pulled that off Newegg.com).

500W is overkill for a heck of a lot of systems - unless you are doing Dual graphics the highest end graphics, or combine a lot of stuff with a Pentium 4 or Pentium D, you should be perfectly fine with that.

I have an Antec Neohe and run 2 Raptors, 2 slim DVD+/-RW/DL/RAM's, a floppy drive (stupid thing), 2 gigs of Corsair XMS2 PC2 5300, a PCI RAID controller, a Gigabyte 7600GT w/ Silent pipe technologoy, and a Core Duo 2.16 ghz processor. So yeah, I have a fair bit of stuff powered by a 500w PSU. Most people probably wouldn't say this, but for your system I would bet you could use a 250 watt psu.... At least that is what I would personally use (successfully I might add to anyone who doubts me. My parents computer has a 150 watt psu and it runs perfectly).
July 17, 2006 5:28:01 PM

ok, thanks for the info about the psu - I didn't realise I had that much wattage to play with. .

The 16mb cache raptors are cheaper? Does that mean they're worse. . ?

Any review links. . .?

Thanks
July 17, 2006 6:00:15 PM

All I can give you for advice is this:
Do NOT buy water cooling kits wich have quick-lock or similar hose fittings.
Or Push-on, like Asetek has.

They need to be proper bolted or tightened on with a screw of some sort.
Takes more time to build but it's Definitely worth it, trust me, I had Asetek, never again... -_-

Also, push-on requires stiff hosing, wich tends to be a problem in itself.
July 17, 2006 6:08:22 PM

500 watts is plenty. Never to much power only to much money. 8)
July 17, 2006 6:08:23 PM

Quote:
All I can give you for advice is this:
Do NOT buy water cooling kits wich have quick-lock or similar hose fittings.
Or Push-on, like Asetek has.

They need to be proper bolted or tightened on with a screw of some sort.
Takes more time to build but it's Definitely worth it, trust me, I had Asetek, never again... -_-

Also, push-on requires stiff hosing, wich tends to be a problem in itself.


DId you post that in the right thread? :) 

http://www.scan.co.uk/Products/ProductInfo.asp?WebProdu... - that should work this time - does it look ok? So it will be the newest revision?
July 17, 2006 6:10:21 PM

Quote:
All I can give you for advice is this:
Do NOT buy water cooling kits wich have quick-lock or similar hose fittings.
Or Push-on, like Asetek has.

They need to be proper bolted or tightened on with a screw of some sort.
Takes more time to build but it's Definitely worth it, trust me, I had Asetek, never again... -_-

Also, push-on requires stiff hosing, wich tends to be a problem in itself.


DId you post that in the right thread? :) 

Lewl, no, that was for another guy :p 
July 17, 2006 6:10:29 PM

Quote:
All I can give you for advice is this:
Do NOT buy water cooling kits wich have quick-lock or similar hose fittings.
Or Push-on, like Asetek has.

They need to be proper bolted or tightened on with a screw of some sort.
Takes more time to build but it's Definitely worth it, trust me, I had Asetek, never again... -_-

Also, push-on requires stiff hosing, wich tends to be a problem in itself.


What the heck? That post doesn't even relate to this thread dude. If I needed help I'd search first and/or ask one of the more knowledgeable people in this forum, not find some random information in the wrong thread. The owner of this topic would probably say the same thing too.
July 17, 2006 6:12:56 PM

Quote:
500 watts is plenty. Never to much power only to much money. 8)


Lol, 500watts = more possibility to spend more money on both electric bills and new computer components :wink:
The 150watt psu was "borrowed" (with permission from my Cisco teacher hahaha) from a school computer that had died when my parent's psu kicked the bucket.
July 17, 2006 6:13:58 PM

Quote:
All I can give you for advice is this:
Do NOT buy water cooling kits wich have quick-lock or similar hose fittings.
Or Push-on, like Asetek has.

They need to be proper bolted or tightened on with a screw of some sort.
Takes more time to build but it's Definitely worth it, trust me, I had Asetek, never again... -_-

Also, push-on requires stiff hosing, wich tends to be a problem in itself.


What the heck? That post doesn't even relate to this thread dude. If I needed help I'd search first and/or ask one of the more knowledgeable people in this forum, not find some random information in the wrong thread. The owner of this topic would probably say the same thing too.


Gee, cool down little man, I hit reply on the wrong page by mistake..
Sheesh.
July 17, 2006 7:43:37 PM

Dude :) 

You seem a bit confused about HD performances. I have (3) original "baby" Raptors (36 GB) and they are in no way as noisy as some have said, and faster than any drives I've ever had. I cannot "hear" my drives accessing. My system, Antec P160 case w/front 120mm 1500 RPM fan and rear 120mm 2200RPM fan, Antec TruePowerII 550 PS w/120mm fan, plus a 2COOLPC interior fan/air distribution unit w/92mm fan, and or course the OC'd ATI X800GTO w/ Artic Cooler and Athlon64 3200 OC'd CPU with HSF ALL running at max RPM via Antec TrueControl generate far more noise than the Raptors. When not gaming I throttle back all fans to approx. 50% and even then, I cannot hear the Raptors. As for speed of loading apps, I use DisKeeper 10 Premium for defrag (made noticable difference in loading Win2K SR4) to keep all Raptors transferring as fast as possible.

Your notion of selling your Seagate IDE "just to replace the ribbon cable" IMO lacks common sense! If your concern is interior air flow-cooling glom a 2COOLPC unit http://www.2coolpc.com/ for $20 USD which, in my experience works simply great, and it's movable from case to case. As for the IDE cables they are easily folded and taped out of the way, while still 100% speed functional.

A single 36 GB Raptor @ $105 http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=101221 (8 mb cache is $27 cheaper than 16 mb cache model and you, as a human, will never ever "see" nor "feel" the difference in speed) will do ya' quite nicely. As for WD's engineering betweeen 36-74-150 GB units, well grok this dude, the number of platters is the difference! Go read this and check the numerous performance curves ... the baby Raptor more than holds its own against its bigger brothers! http://www.tomshardware.com/2006/02/06/wd1500ad_raptor_xtends_performance_lead/

All in all you can do your upgrade for minimal $$ provided you get yore head straight :D  :D 
July 17, 2006 8:05:57 PM

If you use NTFS, there is not a lot of need to defragment, or even worse BUY some program to defrag (windows can do this for you). All of my NTFS drives have "defragged" themselves with use by reordering the applications and such based on how I used them - putting more used apps closer to the outer rim of the magnetic media. I check how fragmented my files are from time to time and unless I've downloaded a really big image on my main drive or move a lot of files around/create a lot of files, it isn't fragmented much.

You are right about the 36 gb Raptors, he could easily go with 2 of those. I wanted the NCQ capability + RAID on mine so I had to get the RAID controller card to get it, which adds money (between 40 and 80 bucks). For me, there was no point in getting them if I didn't have NCQ.

And if he wants to upgrade his motherboard then it does make some sense to go with SATAII, since some motherboards are limiting their IDE channels as more devices come out for SATA. Most Core Duo m/b only have 1 IDE channel now.

That 2coolpc looks like a P.O.S., and the price of a computer does not easily reach $2000 for most people. Use regular case fans, the bigger the better. Bigger = less rotation + more air flow + less noise.
July 17, 2006 8:22:22 PM

ccstooge Dude :) 

You are operating under a total misconception if you "believe" that NTFS doesn't require defragging ... frequently ... because of Windows "piggy" use of the swap files. The "built-in" Win2k/XP defrag is licensed from Diskeeper, and does not, cannot, defrag your MFT's (master file table) on each drive. As you add, delete and/or move progs from drive to drive you frag up the MFT, thus slower prog load times.

As for Sammy tic-tac's original questions :roll:, I'd recommend a single Raptor, 36 GB, with the OS and applications loaded on it. Use the 160 GB Seagate for "data" ... all apps can redirect their data storage to a diff HD from the app code itself. As your app code rarely changes - except for MS updates - you minimize boot HD fragging, while "using" the hdwe ya' already paid for. :D 
July 17, 2006 8:40:30 PM

DON'T GET A RAPTOR!!!!!!!!

I'm not completely sure how much space you really need in a hard drive.. but you should take a look at the reviews on the Seagate 7200.10 750gb hd (perpendicular recording). It comes in a 250, 300, and 750gb size. In many tests the 750 outpaces the 74gig raptor, and is almost dead silent.

I am also planning on building a computer, originally I had thought of getting a raptor and a 7200rpm drive. However, at months of research I now realize that a 7200.10 320gb Seagate is the way to go (FAST, LOTS OF ROOM, and most of all Quiet). All of the raptors fit under only one of those categories, FAST.

Its your call

That's my 2 cents
July 17, 2006 9:07:36 PM

I have to say that while IDE is going to disappear (just like DDR ram) most motherboards have to have at least one IDE port for optical drives and unless you run two optical drives you can still run an IDE hdd from that.

There is no speed increase from using sata over IDE, the interface is faster but the speed of the hard drive is the limiting factor.

Save your money and just get a rounded IDE cable such as

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.asp?N=2010010317+1217713099&Submit=ENE&SubCategory=317
July 17, 2006 9:47:02 PM

Quote:
DON'T GET A RAPTOR!!!!!!!!

I'm not completely sure how much space you really need in a hard drive.. but you should take a look at the reviews on the Seagate 7200.10 750gb hd (perpendicular recording). It comes in a 250, 300, and 750gb size. In many tests the 750 outpaces the 74gig raptor, and is almost dead silent.

I am also planning on building a computer, originally I had thought of getting a raptor and a 7200rpm drive. However, at months of research I now realize that a 7200.10 320gb Seagate is the way to go (FAST, LOTS OF ROOM, and most of all Quiet). All of the raptors fit under only one of those categories, FAST.

Its your call

That's my 2 cents


So what if the 750 outpaces the 74 gb Raptor? DUH, of course it can in some tests, it has a much higher density. But you are relying on ONE hard drive to do everything then, and what if that hard drive fails or windows on it crashes to the point you have to format and reinstall? Not everyone is able to take out a drive and copy information somewhere else (especially with a drive that size).

Did you realize that the 750 gb seagate is also around $499? For that cost, you could MAKE a faster hard drive system (with less space, true, but more performance).

And I hate to burst your bubble, but Raptors are VERY FAST (especially in RAID 0), have MORE THAN ENOUGH space for programs/OS (which is one of the best reasons for them) and the are QUIET also. For the most performance you do not want to put programs, data, etc etc on the same hard drive. EVEN IF you partition it, you lose performance by doing so.

So be careful of what you recommend when you don't think about all the factors.

On a side note, round cables are a good idea if you stick with that IDE drive.
July 17, 2006 11:42:14 PM

However, at months of research I now realize that a 7200.10 320gb Seagate is the way to go (FAST, LOTS OF ROOM, and most of all Quiet). All of the raptors fit under only one of those categories, FAST.

Never once did I say get the 750gb.. I was just using that as a benchmark reference.

I know its good to have two drives for safety precautions.

If you would be so kind.. could you please give me a link to the decibel noise levels of both the 74gig raptor and the seagate 320gb 7200.10 (I think you will be surprised)
July 18, 2006 1:41:51 AM

I don't have a link to describe the decibal noise, I have 2 RAID'ed Raptors in my new computer. I won't sit here and lie and say "running full bore they are whisper quiet" but on average they are very quiet. I care more about how loud the rest of the system is (in no particular order, fan's - the biggest, dvd drives, hard drives). I'm infamous for having loud butt fans in a computer (which make it cool, but make a lot of noise) and this is my second truly quiet pc - first being my laptop.

I like hearing the background noise, can't stand total silence. So if my hard drive's tick a little, I will 1 - know they are working and say "sha-wing" or "what the #*@# are they doing" and 2 - get a break from silence. If that ticking got on my nerves, I would treat it like a car and add sound-deadening material to the sides. Even better, I can sit across the room and use the remote from the AOpen board and turn it off :D  .

It's nice you disregarded the entire part about the 3 factors that "raptors only have one", which is not true. They do have lots of room for what they are really needed for, holding/hosting, launching applications on demand. Only a fool would spend so much on these drives just for storage, unless they were connected to a gigabit wan/lan line and used the entire bandwidth of the drives (in which case they would use something even better to host).
July 18, 2006 1:53:51 AM

Quote:
I won't sit here and lie and say "running full bore they are whisper quiet" but on average they are very quiet.
I like hearing the background noise, can't stand total silence.

It's nice you disregarded the entire part about the 3 factors that "raptors only have one", which is not true. They do have lots of room for what they are really needed for, holding/hosting, launching applications on demand. Only a fool would spend so much on these drives just for storage, unless they were connected to a gigabit wan/lan line and used the entire bandwidth of the drives (in which case they would use something even better to host).


Im not here to argue.. but here is my defense..

In your response you led me to believe that you don't care about noise.. saying that your fans are beastly loud and you hate silence. That shouldn't give you the right to judge the noise level of a raptor.

Finally, I did not ignore the 3 factors, 1 of which the raptor has. Raptors do have speed. But they seem to be quiet/loud, depending on who you talk to. And third, 150gigs is not that much space, when you can get an almost as equally as fast 250gig 7200.10 seagate for half the price.
July 18, 2006 3:04:44 AM

On my car forum, we have a word for those who simply restate what has been posted - post whore (of which I am somewhat guilty on that forum, hahaha) :p 

That said, I tend to agree with another thread that stated bad things about using rubber bands to decrease noise, but increases vibration. It is exactly the same as getting a blister on your heel when running - if you want to avoid a blister wear snug/somewhat tight fitting shoes and every day socks! Well, if you are worried about vibration then tighten the screws. Since when do properly tightened down hard drives vibrate a case? IMO that is one shoddy case, or one dieing hard drive. If the screws are snug into the hard drive/cd drive/whatever, and if you have a cage it should be securely mounted as well. that will cause fewer problems and sound.

I whole heartidly agree with the sound dampening of the case though. Material similar to Dynamat (I haven't searched for case dampening yet, though I will) can be used - the general principle is you add mass to whatever you want to reduce noise (in this case, a desktop case), which reduces vibrations and also slows sound from soaking through the metal/plastic/whatever to the outside. I'm actually about to try this on my car to reduce road noise, and will do it to the sides of my case too. Note, however, that it will increase the inside operating temps slightly, or significantly (depending), since it removes that area from direct heat contact and transfer (what is the technical term? Convection? I can't recall right now) from inside to out and vice versa.

Lastly, I do care about noise - I said previously I had beastly fans (small ones that were loud), but now I have a quiet case. I'm not judging all Raptors, which can be and probably are different noise levels as all products can differ. BUT, the ones I have seen have been relatively quiet. I don't consider a soft "tick, tick tick tick, tick tick" to be loud or obnoxious. It is better than a constant whir of a fan or other object, no? I don't remember the benchmarks of the Seagate drives.
You aren't paying for space when you buy a Raptor, you are paying for speed - which the Raptor succeeds in, whether it is one drive, two (where it really starts to shine) or more. Personally almost hate that I have ~150 gb for my system drive, because i'll never use 1/3 of that space. Everything will be put on a storage drive, so I don't take away from its performance.
July 18, 2006 11:11:13 AM

i understand...


what type of car are you putting the material in.. and where in the car?
!