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Epson admits that using their tanks will void your warranty!

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Anonymous
May 10, 2005 8:32:46 PM

Archived from groups: 24hoursupport.helpdesk,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

Just spoken to Epson TS because I believe the red nozzle in the printhead is
dead.

Epson: - Welcome to Epson's eTalk. My name is X. How may I help you?
Me: - I have an R800 and I believe the red nozzle is dead. I've wasted two
sets of tanks cleaning
Epson: - What make of cartridges are you using?
Me: - OEM
Epson: - You should always use genuine Epson. The use of OEM cartridges will
void your warranty.

By this point I was pissing myself. OK, I was annoyed about my printer, but
an OEM that doesn't know what OEM stands for? This was too much...

Me: - You do know what OEM stands for, don't you?
Epson: - The only OEM I know is non-Epson.

I did a quick scan of printer companies to see if I could unearth one using
the initials OEM. I couldn't.

Me: - OEM stands for Original Equipment Manufacturer. How can that be
anything other than genuine Epson?
Epson: - No it doesn't. OEM cartridges aren't genuine Epson.
Me: - What are they then? Name me a manufacturer of OEM cartridges.
Epson: - /silence/
Me: - Well?
Epson: - JetTec. Many people use JetTec.
Me: - That's a third party manufacturer
Epson: - No they're OEM
Me: - No, they're third-party

He started getting snotty at this point insisting that I didn't know
anything. I terminated the conversation. I'm going to call them tomorrow,
and see if I get someone who does know the correct meaning of OEM.








--
In memory of MS MVP Alex Nichol: http://www.dts-l.org/
May 10, 2005 8:32:47 PM

Archived from groups: 24hoursupport.helpdesk,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

Miss Perspicacia Tick wrote:

> Just spoken to Epson TS because I believe the red nozzle in the printhead is
> dead.
>
> Epson: - Welcome to Epson's eTalk. My name is X. How may I help you?
> Me: - I have an R800 and I believe the red nozzle is dead. I've wasted two
> sets of tanks cleaning
> Epson: - What make of cartridges are you using?
> Me: - OEM
> Epson: - You should always use genuine Epson. The use of OEM cartridges will
> void your warranty.
>
> By this point I was pissing myself. OK, I was annoyed about my printer, but
> an OEM that doesn't know what OEM stands for? This was too much...
>
> Me: - You do know what OEM stands for, don't you?
> Epson: - The only OEM I know is non-Epson.
>
> I did a quick scan of printer companies to see if I could unearth one using
> the initials OEM. I couldn't.
>
> Me: - OEM stands for Original Equipment Manufacturer. How can that be
> anything other than genuine Epson?
> Epson: - No it doesn't. OEM cartridges aren't genuine Epson.
> Me: - What are they then? Name me a manufacturer of OEM cartridges.
> Epson: - /silence/
> Me: - Well?
> Epson: - JetTec. Many people use JetTec.
> Me: - That's a third party manufacturer
> Epson: - No they're OEM
> Me: - No, they're third-party
>
> He started getting snotty at this point insisting that I didn't know
> anything. I terminated the conversation. I'm going to call them tomorrow,
> and see if I get someone who does know the correct meaning of OEM.

OEM does *not* signify that it has to be the company that made the
printer. The Original isn't a reference to the printer, it's a reference
to who made the cartridge. So in this case, even though the tech may
have been somewhat dense, they were correct. The opposite of OEM is VAR
or value added reseller. A VAR could take a JetTec cartridge and put
Bud's Ink brand on it and resell it.
Anonymous
May 10, 2005 8:32:47 PM

Archived from groups: 24hoursupport.helpdesk,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

My WindowsXP Pro is OEM.

That means that it is a genuine Microsoft product that does not include
Microsoft support. It is intended to be distributed by Original Equipment
Manufacturers and is not for sale to the general public. Support for this
product is the responsibility of the supplier.

I would expect that this is the context of the phrase 'OEM' taken by the
Epson tech.

So you could argue that the Cartridges that were supplied with the printer
were OEM since they were supplied by the Original Equipment Manufacturer (in
this case Epson) and, therefore, according to the Epson Tech, invalidated
your warranty the first time you used the printer.

I would agree that jettec is a third party manufacturer and not OEM. They do
not make Epson Printers or Epson Cartridges. They do make Epson Compatible
Cartridges.

--
Mick Doherty
http://dotnetrix.co.uk/nothing.html


"Miss Perspicacia Tick" <test@test.com> wrote in message
news:Fu4ge.34540$a25.4744@fe06.highwinds-media.phx...
> Just spoken to Epson TS because I believe the red nozzle in the printhead
> is dead.
>
> Epson: - Welcome to Epson's eTalk. My name is X. How may I help you?
> Me: - I have an R800 and I believe the red nozzle is dead. I've wasted two
> sets of tanks cleaning
> Epson: - What make of cartridges are you using?
> Me: - OEM
> Epson: - You should always use genuine Epson. The use of OEM cartridges
> will void your warranty.
>
> By this point I was pissing myself. OK, I was annoyed about my printer,
> but an OEM that doesn't know what OEM stands for? This was too much...
>
> Me: - You do know what OEM stands for, don't you?
> Epson: - The only OEM I know is non-Epson.
>
> I did a quick scan of printer companies to see if I could unearth one
> using the initials OEM. I couldn't.
>
> Me: - OEM stands for Original Equipment Manufacturer. How can that be
> anything other than genuine Epson?
> Epson: - No it doesn't. OEM cartridges aren't genuine Epson.
> Me: - What are they then? Name me a manufacturer of OEM cartridges.
> Epson: - /silence/
> Me: - Well?
> Epson: - JetTec. Many people use JetTec.
> Me: - That's a third party manufacturer
> Epson: - No they're OEM
> Me: - No, they're third-party
>
> He started getting snotty at this point insisting that I didn't know
> anything. I terminated the conversation. I'm going to call them tomorrow,
> and see if I get someone who does know the correct meaning of OEM.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> In memory of MS MVP Alex Nichol: http://www.dts-l.org/
>
Related resources
Anonymous
May 10, 2005 8:56:55 PM

Archived from groups: 24hoursupport.helpdesk,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

You guys are just as dense as that Epson tech. If you bought a brand new
Epson printer it is going to come with an Epson ink cartridge not a Jettec
or anybody else's.

--


The best live web video on the internet http://www.seedsv.com/webdemo.htm
Sharpvision simply the best http://www.seedsv.com



"Michael Doherty"
<EXCHANGE#WITH@AND.REMOVE.SQUAREBRACKETS.[mdaudi100#ntlworld.com]> wrote in
message news:D Y4ge.601$Nt.586@newsfe4-gui.ntli.net...
> My WindowsXP Pro is OEM.
>
> That means that it is a genuine Microsoft product that does not include
> Microsoft support. It is intended to be distributed by Original Equipment
> Manufacturers and is not for sale to the general public. Support for this
> product is the responsibility of the supplier.
>
> I would expect that this is the context of the phrase 'OEM' taken by the
> Epson tech.
>
> So you could argue that the Cartridges that were supplied with the printer
> were OEM since they were supplied by the Original Equipment Manufacturer
> (in this case Epson) and, therefore, according to the Epson Tech,
> invalidated your warranty the first time you used the printer.
>
> I would agree that jettec is a third party manufacturer and not OEM. They
> do not make Epson Printers or Epson Cartridges. They do make Epson
> Compatible Cartridges.
>
> --
> Mick Doherty
> http://dotnetrix.co.uk/nothing.html
>
>
> "Miss Perspicacia Tick" <test@test.com> wrote in message
> news:Fu4ge.34540$a25.4744@fe06.highwinds-media.phx...
>> Just spoken to Epson TS because I believe the red nozzle in the printhead
>> is dead.
>>
>> Epson: - Welcome to Epson's eTalk. My name is X. How may I help you?
>> Me: - I have an R800 and I believe the red nozzle is dead. I've wasted
>> two sets of tanks cleaning
>> Epson: - What make of cartridges are you using?
>> Me: - OEM
>> Epson: - You should always use genuine Epson. The use of OEM cartridges
>> will void your warranty.
>>
>> By this point I was pissing myself. OK, I was annoyed about my printer,
>> but an OEM that doesn't know what OEM stands for? This was too much...
>>
>> Me: - You do know what OEM stands for, don't you?
>> Epson: - The only OEM I know is non-Epson.
>>
>> I did a quick scan of printer companies to see if I could unearth one
>> using the initials OEM. I couldn't.
>>
>> Me: - OEM stands for Original Equipment Manufacturer. How can that be
>> anything other than genuine Epson?
>> Epson: - No it doesn't. OEM cartridges aren't genuine Epson.
>> Me: - What are they then? Name me a manufacturer of OEM cartridges.
>> Epson: - /silence/
>> Me: - Well?
>> Epson: - JetTec. Many people use JetTec.
>> Me: - That's a third party manufacturer
>> Epson: - No they're OEM
>> Me: - No, they're third-party
>>
>> He started getting snotty at this point insisting that I didn't know
>> anything. I terminated the conversation. I'm going to call them tomorrow,
>> and see if I get someone who does know the correct meaning of OEM.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> In memory of MS MVP Alex Nichol: http://www.dts-l.org/
>>
>
>
Anonymous
May 10, 2005 9:16:34 PM

Archived from groups: 24hoursupport.helpdesk,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

Rôgêr wrote:

> Miss Perspicacia Tick wrote:
>
>> Just spoken to Epson TS because I believe the red nozzle in the
>> printhead is dead.
>>
>> Epson: - Welcome to Epson's eTalk. My name is X. How may I help you?
>> Me: - I have an R800 and I believe the red nozzle is dead. I've
>> wasted two sets of tanks cleaning
>> Epson: - What make of cartridges are you using?
>> Me: - OEM
>> Epson: - You should always use genuine Epson. The use of OEM
>> cartridges will void your warranty.
>>
>> By this point I was pissing myself. OK, I was annoyed about my
>> printer, but an OEM that doesn't know what OEM stands for? This was
>> too much...
>>
>> Me: - You do know what OEM stands for, don't you?
>> Epson: - The only OEM I know is non-Epson.
>>
>> I did a quick scan of printer companies to see if I could unearth one
>> using the initials OEM. I couldn't.
>>
>> Me: - OEM stands for Original Equipment Manufacturer. How can that be
>> anything other than genuine Epson?
>> Epson: - No it doesn't. OEM cartridges aren't genuine Epson.
>> Me: - What are they then? Name me a manufacturer of OEM cartridges.
>> Epson: - /silence/
>> Me: - Well?
>> Epson: - JetTec. Many people use JetTec.
>> Me: - That's a third party manufacturer
>> Epson: - No they're OEM
>> Me: - No, they're third-party
>>
>> He started getting snotty at this point insisting that I didn't know
>> anything. I terminated the conversation. I'm going to call them
>> tomorrow, and see if I get someone who does know the correct meaning
>> of OEM.
>
>
> OEM does *not* signify that it has to be the company that made the
> printer. The Original isn't a reference to the printer, it's a
> reference to who made the cartridge. So in this case, even though the
> tech may have been somewhat dense, they were correct. The opposite of
> OEM is VAR or value added reseller. A VAR could take a JetTec
> cartridge and put Bud's Ink brand on it and resell it.


In this case it is a VSR a Value Subtracted Reseller.
Anonymous
May 10, 2005 9:18:49 PM

Archived from groups: 24hoursupport.helpdesk,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

Michael Doherty wrote:

>My WindowsXP Pro is OEM.
>
>That means that it is a genuine Microsoft product that does not include
>Microsoft support. It is intended to be distributed by Original Equipment
>Manufacturers and is not for sale to the general public. Support for this
>product is the responsibility of the supplier.
>
>I would expect that this is the context of the phrase 'OEM' taken by the
>Epson tech.
>
>So you could argue that the Cartridges that were supplied with the printer
>were OEM since they were supplied by the Original Equipment Manufacturer (in
>this case Epson) and, therefore, according to the Epson Tech, invalidated
>your warranty the first time you used the printer.
>
>I would agree that jettec is a third party manufacturer and not OEM. They do
>not make Epson Printers or Epson Cartridges. They do make Epson Compatible
>Cartridges.
>
>

They probably do not mfg anything. They most likely are a repacker and
relabeler.
Anonymous
May 10, 2005 9:26:12 PM

Archived from groups: 24hoursupport.helpdesk,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

Who made the cartridges that you have been using?


"Miss Perspicacia Tick" <test@test.com> wrote in message
news:Fu4ge.34540$a25.4744@fe06.highwinds-media.phx...
| Just spoken to Epson TS because I believe the red nozzle in the printhead
is
| dead.
|
| Epson: - Welcome to Epson's eTalk. My name is X. How may I help you?
| Me: - I have an R800 and I believe the red nozzle is dead. I've wasted two
| sets of tanks cleaning
| Epson: - What make of cartridges are you using?
| Me: - OEM
| Epson: - You should always use genuine Epson. The use of OEM cartridges
will
| void your warranty.
|
| By this point I was pissing myself. OK, I was annoyed about my printer,
but
| an OEM that doesn't know what OEM stands for? This was too much...
|
| Me: - You do know what OEM stands for, don't you?
| Epson: - The only OEM I know is non-Epson.
|
| I did a quick scan of printer companies to see if I could unearth one
using
| the initials OEM. I couldn't.
|
| Me: - OEM stands for Original Equipment Manufacturer. How can that be
| anything other than genuine Epson?
| Epson: - No it doesn't. OEM cartridges aren't genuine Epson.
| Me: - What are they then? Name me a manufacturer of OEM cartridges.
| Epson: - /silence/
| Me: - Well?
| Epson: - JetTec. Many people use JetTec.
| Me: - That's a third party manufacturer
| Epson: - No they're OEM
| Me: - No, they're third-party
|
| He started getting snotty at this point insisting that I didn't know
| anything. I terminated the conversation. I'm going to call them tomorrow,
| and see if I get someone who does know the correct meaning of OEM.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| --
| In memory of MS MVP Alex Nichol: http://www.dts-l.org/
|
|
May 10, 2005 9:29:24 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

Read Woe of Epson C62 lower down the listings.

I had a C62 it went faulty during warrenty, they exchanged it and
guess what - that went the same way in about the same amount of time
with the same symptoms

When I got the xchanged unit I thought I would get a new warrenty - NO
no said Epson the warrenty starts from the day of purchase they
said...!

So No more Epsons for me.

I wonder if your's went the same way...... Did it want a nozzle clean,
then more and more nozzle cleans as time went by, I bet like me you
wasted tons of ink.

Some folks say you shouldn't use third party inks - BUT I DIDN't,
whilst under warrenty I ensured I printed regularly and used GENUINE
INKS and from my write up you will find I still had 'clogged heads'
So I say Epsons will clog wheter you use third party inks or genuine
inks - I've prove it

I imagine your problem like mine, got worse over time - be interested
to know out of curiousity.

Davy
Anonymous
May 10, 2005 9:49:59 PM

Archived from groups: 24hoursupport.helpdesk,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

Quote:
pronounced as separate letters) Short for original equipment manufacturer,
which is a misleading term for a company that has a special relationship
with computer producers. OEMs buy computers in bulk and customize them for a
particular application. They then sell the customized computer under their
own name. The term is really a misnomer because OEMs are not the original
manufacturers -- they are the customizers. End Quote.
Have you ever heard such f*****g rubbish..J

"Miss Perspicacia Tick" <test@test.com> wrote in message
news:Fu4ge.34540$a25.4744@fe06.highwinds-media.phx...
> Just spoken to Epson TS because I believe the red nozzle in the printhead
> is dead.
>
> Epson: - Welcome to Epson's eTalk. My name is X. How may I help you?
> Me: - I have an R800 and I believe the red nozzle is dead. I've wasted two
> sets of tanks cleaning
> Epson: - What make of cartridges are you using?
> Me: - OEM
> Epson: - You should always use genuine Epson. The use of OEM cartridges
> will void your warranty.
>
> By this point I was pissing myself. OK, I was annoyed about my printer,
> but an OEM that doesn't know what OEM stands for? This was too much...
>
> Me: - You do know what OEM stands for, don't you?
> Epson: - The only OEM I know is non-Epson.
>
> I did a quick scan of printer companies to see if I could unearth one
> using the initials OEM. I couldn't.
>
> Me: - OEM stands for Original Equipment Manufacturer. How can that be
> anything other than genuine Epson?
> Epson: - No it doesn't. OEM cartridges aren't genuine Epson.
> Me: - What are they then? Name me a manufacturer of OEM cartridges.
> Epson: - /silence/
> Me: - Well?
> Epson: - JetTec. Many people use JetTec.
> Me: - That's a third party manufacturer
> Epson: - No they're OEM
> Me: - No, they're third-party
>
> He started getting snotty at this point insisting that I didn't know
> anything. I terminated the conversation. I'm going to call them tomorrow,
> and see if I get someone who does know the correct meaning of OEM.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> In memory of MS MVP Alex Nichol: http://www.dts-l.org/
>
Anonymous
May 10, 2005 9:50:00 PM

Archived from groups: 24hoursupport.helpdesk,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

Miss P,
Unless I am mistaken, you are in the UK. Have you thought about calling
Epson Technical Support in the USA? I have never been treated in the manner
you have and you are perfectly right to be pissed off. I would call Epson
and insist on speaking with a manager or supervisor and have the text of
your conversation with the snotty tech you spoke with handy. This is what
supervisor are for.

When I called Epson in the US, located in New York as I recall, I was
treated with respect and my issues were dealt with quickly and fairly. I
had a problem with my 820 and a supervisor offered to send me a new R200,
plus a free black cartridge and free shipping with 10% off the website
price.

There was no discussion of semantics involving the meaning of OEM or Genuine
Epson in regards to anything connected with the printer or the cartridges.
I was simply asked if I was using Epson brand cartridges or not.

"old jon" <jonbrookes@nospamntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:bv6ge.798$RJ6.764@newsfe1-win.ntli.net...
> Quote:
> pronounced as separate letters) Short for original equipment manufacturer,
> which is a misleading term for a company that has a special relationship
> with computer producers. OEMs buy computers in bulk and customize them for
a
> particular application. They then sell the customized computer under their
> own name. The term is really a misnomer because OEMs are not the original
> manufacturers -- they are the customizers. End Quote.
> Have you ever heard such f*****g rubbish..J
>
> "Miss Perspicacia Tick" <test@test.com> wrote in message
> news:Fu4ge.34540$a25.4744@fe06.highwinds-media.phx...
> > Just spoken to Epson TS because I believe the red nozzle in the
printhead
> > is dead.
> >
> > Epson: - Welcome to Epson's eTalk. My name is X. How may I help you?
> > Me: - I have an R800 and I believe the red nozzle is dead. I've wasted
two
> > sets of tanks cleaning
> > Epson: - What make of cartridges are you using?
> > Me: - OEM
> > Epson: - You should always use genuine Epson. The use of OEM cartridges
> > will void your warranty.
> >
> > By this point I was pissing myself. OK, I was annoyed about my printer,
> > but an OEM that doesn't know what OEM stands for? This was too much...
> >
> > Me: - You do know what OEM stands for, don't you?
> > Epson: - The only OEM I know is non-Epson.
> >
> > I did a quick scan of printer companies to see if I could unearth one
> > using the initials OEM. I couldn't.
> >
> > Me: - OEM stands for Original Equipment Manufacturer. How can that be
> > anything other than genuine Epson?
> > Epson: - No it doesn't. OEM cartridges aren't genuine Epson.
> > Me: - What are they then? Name me a manufacturer of OEM cartridges.
> > Epson: - /silence/
> > Me: - Well?
> > Epson: - JetTec. Many people use JetTec.
> > Me: - That's a third party manufacturer
> > Epson: - No they're OEM
> > Me: - No, they're third-party
> >
> > He started getting snotty at this point insisting that I didn't know
> > anything. I terminated the conversation. I'm going to call them
tomorrow,
> > and see if I get someone who does know the correct meaning of OEM.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > In memory of MS MVP Alex Nichol: http://www.dts-l.org/
> >
>
>
Anonymous
May 10, 2005 10:12:16 PM

Archived from groups: 24hoursupport.helpdesk,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

pcbutts1 wrote:
> You guys are just as dense as that Epson tech. If you bought a brand new
> Epson printer it is going to come with an Epson ink cartridge not a Jettec
> or anybody else's.
>

I agree. Somebody can't understand English.
Original Equipment Manufacture means that it is
what was used in the new item. It doesn't make
any difference if Epson contracted the tanks or
any other part out to other companies, it is what
was in the new item.

The OP error was in getting fancy and saying OEM.
She should have just said Epson tanks.
Anonymous
May 10, 2005 10:33:43 PM

Archived from groups: 24hoursupport.helpdesk,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

Miss Perspicacia Tick wrote:
> Just spoken to Epson TS because I believe the red nozzle in the
> printhead is dead.
>
> Epson: - Welcome to Epson's eTalk. My name is X. How may I help you?
> Me: - I have an R800 and I believe the red nozzle is dead. I've
> wasted two sets of tanks cleaning
> Epson: - What make of cartridges are you using?
> Me: - OEM
> Epson: - You should always use genuine Epson. The use of OEM
> cartridges will void your warranty.
>
> By this point I was pissing myself. OK, I was annoyed about my
> printer, but an OEM that doesn't know what OEM stands for? This was
> too much...
>
> Me: - You do know what OEM stands for, don't you?
> Epson: - The only OEM I know is non-Epson.
>
> I did a quick scan of printer companies to see if I could unearth one
> using the initials OEM. I couldn't.
>
> Me: - OEM stands for Original Equipment Manufacturer. How can that be
> anything other than genuine Epson?
> Epson: - No it doesn't. OEM cartridges aren't genuine Epson.
> Me: - What are they then? Name me a manufacturer of OEM cartridges.
> Epson: - /silence/
> Me: - Well?
> Epson: - JetTec. Many people use JetTec.
> Me: - That's a third party manufacturer
> Epson: - No they're OEM
> Me: - No, they're third-party
>
> He started getting snotty at this point insisting that I didn't know
> anything. I terminated the conversation. I'm going to call them
> tomorrow, and see if I get someone who does know the correct meaning
> of OEM.

See this link for a defination of OEM

http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/O/OEM.html

Brian G
Anonymous
May 10, 2005 11:57:04 PM

Archived from groups: 24hoursupport.helpdesk,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

pcbutts1 wrote:
> You guys are just as dense as that Epson tech. If you bought a brand new
> Epson printer it is going to come with an Epson ink cartridge not a Jettec
> or anybody else's.
>

The response was to a hypothetical situation where Epson trusted a third
party supplier, and delivered their cartridges instead of their own with
the printers. Those cartridges would fall into the category "OEM"
because they're supplied by the manufacturer, the de facto "OEM", as it
were.
Anonymous
May 11, 2005 12:20:05 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

Davy wrote:

>Read Woe of Epson C62 lower down the listings.
>
>I had a C62 it went faulty during warrenty, they exchanged it and
>guess what - that went the same way in about the same amount of time
>with the same symptoms
>
>When I got the xchanged unit I thought I would get a new warrenty - NO
>no said Epson the warrenty starts from the day of purchase they
>said...!
>
>So No more Epsons for me.
>
>I wonder if your's went the same way...... Did it want a nozzle clean,
>then more and more nozzle cleans as time went by, I bet like me you
>wasted tons of ink.
>
>

I understand that this model was not up to snuff. The R series of
printer have improved but I hear they are ink guzzlers. Most of the
people who have clog problems either use 3rd party inks and/or have a
light print load.

>Some folks say you shouldn't use third party inks - BUT I DIDN't,
>whilst under warrenty I ensured I printed regularly and used GENUINE
>INKS and from my write up you will find I still had 'clogged heads'
>So I say Epsons will clog wheter you use third party inks or genuine
>inks - I've prove it
>
>I imagine your problem like mine, got worse over time - be interested
>to know out of curiousity.
>
>Davy
>
>
>
Anonymous
May 11, 2005 12:29:05 AM

Archived from groups: 24hoursupport.helpdesk,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

old jon wrote:

>Quote:
>pronounced as separate letters) Short for original equipment manufacturer,
>which is a misleading term for a company that has a special relationship
>with computer producers. OEMs buy computers in bulk and customize them for a
>particular application. They then sell the customized computer under their
>own name. The term is really a misnomer because OEMs are not the original
>manufacturers -- they are the customizers. End Quote.
>Have you ever heard such f*****g rubbish..J
>
>

The above paragraph made sense.

>"Miss Perspicacia Tick" <test@test.com> wrote in message
>news:Fu4ge.34540$a25.4744@fe06.highwinds-media.phx...
>
>
>>Just spoken to Epson TS because I believe the red nozzle in the printhead
>>is dead.
>>
>>Epson: - Welcome to Epson's eTalk. My name is X. How may I help you?
>>Me: - I have an R800 and I believe the red nozzle is dead. I've wasted two
>>sets of tanks cleaning
>>Epson: - What make of cartridges are you using?
>>Me: - OEM
>>Epson: - You should always use genuine Epson. The use of OEM cartridges
>>will void your warranty.
>>
>>By this point I was pissing myself. OK, I was annoyed about my printer,
>>but an OEM that doesn't know what OEM stands for? This was too much...
>>
>>Me: - You do know what OEM stands for, don't you?
>>Epson: - The only OEM I know is non-Epson.
>>
>>I did a quick scan of printer companies to see if I could unearth one
>>using the initials OEM. I couldn't.
>>
>>Me: - OEM stands for Original Equipment Manufacturer. How can that be
>>anything other than genuine Epson?
>>Epson: - No it doesn't. OEM cartridges aren't genuine Epson.
>>Me: - What are they then? Name me a manufacturer of OEM cartridges.
>>Epson: - /silence/
>>Me: - Well?
>>Epson: - JetTec. Many people use JetTec.
>>Me: - That's a third party manufacturer
>>Epson: - No they're OEM
>>Me: - No, they're third-party
>>
>>He started getting snotty at this point insisting that I didn't know
>>anything. I terminated the conversation. I'm going to call them tomorrow,
>>and see if I get someone who does know the correct meaning of OEM.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>--
>>In memory of MS MVP Alex Nichol: http://www.dts-l.org/
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
May 11, 2005 3:28:56 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

> measekitewrote:
Davy wrote:
>
>
>
>
I understand that this model was not up to snuff. The R series of
printer have improved but I hear they are ink guzzlers. Most of the
people who have clog problems either use 3rd party inks and/or have a

light print load.

To measekite
Davy say's
Perhaps you should read what I have said, I shall repeat. Whilst under
guarantee I ENSURED I used Epson Inks - Genuine Epson inks

AGAIN, I will say Epson ink is LIABLE to clog just as much as third
party inks, have I proved that. The only time I did not use Epson ink
was when the 2nd printer developed the same fault in the same amount
of time OK? That was when I switched to JET-TEC. I also ensured that
the printer never went without use..

What are we suppose to do - GO AWAY ON HOLIDAY AND BUY A NEW EPSON
WHEN WE RETURN? AND WHY IS THERE NO ADVICE IN THEIR USER MANUAL
REGARDING THIS MATTER.

I apologise for hi-jacking this post but have to respond to people who
can not comprehend what is being said.
May 11, 2005 3:39:36 AM

Archived from groups: 24hoursupport.helpdesk,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

"Miss Perspicacia Tick" <test@test.com> wrote in message
news:Fu4ge.34540$a25.4744@fe06.highwinds-media.phx...
> Just spoken to Epson TS because I believe the red nozzle in the printhead
> is dead.
>
> Epson: - Welcome to Epson's eTalk. My name is X. How may I help you?
> Me: - I have an R800 and I believe the red nozzle is dead. I've wasted two
> sets of tanks cleaning
> Epson: - What make of cartridges are you using?
> Me: - OEM
> Epson: - You should always use genuine Epson. The use of OEM cartridges
> will void your warranty.
>
> By this point I was pissing myself. OK, I was annoyed about my printer,
> but an OEM that doesn't know what OEM stands for? This was too much...
>
> Me: - You do know what OEM stands for, don't you?
> Epson: - The only OEM I know is non-Epson.
>
> I did a quick scan of printer companies to see if I could unearth one
> using the initials OEM. I couldn't.
>
> Me: - OEM stands for Original Equipment Manufacturer. How can that be
> anything other than genuine Epson?
> Epson: - No it doesn't. OEM cartridges aren't genuine Epson.
> Me: - What are they then? Name me a manufacturer of OEM cartridges.
> Epson: - /silence/
> Me: - Well?
> Epson: - JetTec. Many people use JetTec.
> Me: - That's a third party manufacturer
> Epson: - No they're OEM
> Me: - No, they're third-party
>
> He started getting snotty at this point insisting that I didn't know
> anything. I terminated the conversation. I'm going to call them tomorrow,
> and see if I get someone who does know the correct meaning of OEM.
>
>
>
>
Hi there.

This sort of thing is becoming more and more common, it is not confined to
Epson .

The problem is "Call Centres".

When you phone any big company nowadays, you get through to one of these
places. They ask certain questions, and while doing so put the answers into
the Computer, and depending on the answers another question is asked.

Just exactly like using the Troubleshooter in Windows.

And the person you are speaking to, knows as little about the subject, and
sometimes a lot less than you do.

So whoever it was would not have clue what O.E. M. meant. The computer would
not have an explanation of those initials either, so the conversation was
bound to deteriorate.

Asking for a supervisor or manager is no help, they are probably only "Call
Centre" orientated, and know nothing about the product.

If you think the OP experience is bad, I would suggest that you never try
phoning the Bank of Scotland (HBOS) or Scottish Gas.

Roy G
Anonymous
May 11, 2005 3:44:13 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

It seems like Epson UK is really Epson Anal and that is different from
Epson US who appears to take care of their customers. Anyway I told
you that the problem is mostly likely restricted to that particular
Model. But in general Epsons do have clogging problems but from the
posts I read more so with aftermarket than 3rd party inks but it does
happen with both more than other brands because of their pezio design.

Davy wrote:

>>measekitewrote:
>>
>>
>Davy wrote:
>
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>I understand that this model was not up to snuff. The R series of
>printer have improved but I hear they are ink guzzlers. Most of the
>people who have clog problems either use 3rd party inks and/or have a
>
>light print load.
>
>To measekite
>Davy say's
>Perhaps you should read what I have said, I shall repeat. Whilst under
>guarantee I ENSURED I used Epson Inks - Genuine Epson inks
>
>AGAIN, I will say Epson ink is LIABLE to clog just as much as third
>party inks, have I proved that. The only time I did not use Epson ink
>was when the 2nd printer developed the same fault in the same amount
>of time OK? That was when I switched to JET-TEC. I also ensured that
>the printer never went without use..
>
>What are we suppose to do - GO AWAY ON HOLIDAY AND BUY A NEW EPSON
>WHEN WE RETURN? AND WHY IS THERE NO ADVICE IN THEIR USER MANUAL
>REGARDING THIS MATTER.
>
>I apologise for hi-jacking this post but have to respond to people who
>can not comprehend what is being said.
>
>
>
May 11, 2005 4:03:13 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

Just the facts, no nasty posts please - you don't use Epsons or third party
inks. Data from Tony who repairs these printers indicates that there are
pretty much equal clogs from OEM and non-OEM inks. Arthur Entlich, from
what I have seen in his posts, is pretty much an expert on Epsons and uses
them with both OEM and non-OEM inks. He has not reported substantially more
problems with non-OEM inks. I appreciate that you know about the two
printers you use, but I would rely on people with hands-on experience for
Epson information.

"measekite" <measekite@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:hHbge.1028$3%4.648@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...
> It seems like Epson UK is really Epson Anal and that is different from
> Epson US who appears to take care of their customers. Anyway I told you
> that the problem is mostly likely restricted to that particular Model.
> But in general Epsons do have clogging problems but from the posts I read
> more so with aftermarket than 3rd party inks but it does happen with both
> more than other brands because of their pezio design.
>
> Davy wrote:
>
>>>measekitewrote:
>>>
>>Davy wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>I understand that this model was not up to snuff. The R series of printer
>>have improved but I hear they are ink guzzlers. Most of the people who
>>have clog problems either use 3rd party inks and/or have a
>>
>>light print load.
>>
>>To measekite
>>Davy say's
>>Perhaps you should read what I have said, I shall repeat. Whilst under
>>guarantee I ENSURED I used Epson Inks - Genuine Epson inks
>>
>>AGAIN, I will say Epson ink is LIABLE to clog just as much as third
>>party inks, have I proved that. The only time I did not use Epson ink
>>was when the 2nd printer developed the same fault in the same amount
>>of time OK? That was when I switched to JET-TEC. I also ensured that
>>the printer never went without use..
>>
>>What are we suppose to do - GO AWAY ON HOLIDAY AND BUY A NEW EPSON WHEN WE
>>RETURN? AND WHY IS THERE NO ADVICE IN THEIR USER MANUAL
>>REGARDING THIS MATTER.
>>
>>I apologise for hi-jacking this post but have to respond to people who
>>can not comprehend what is being said.
>>
>>
Anonymous
May 11, 2005 5:11:00 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

In article <b9840$4280ef74$455da0d2$28871@allthenewsgroups.com>,
davecoe@blueyonder.co-dot-uk.no-spam.invalid (Davy) wrote:

> So I say Epsons will clog wheter you use third party inks or genuine
> inks - I've prove it

You've proved that your C62s clogged, which is not the same thing.

For the Nth time: many people have used Epson inkjet printers for years
without having more than the occasional blockage which is easily cleared
by running a head cleaning cycle. I'm one of them.

Jon.
Anonymous
May 11, 2005 5:28:00 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

In article <YCbge.2625$f5.1591@newsfe6-win.ntli.net>,
royphoty@iona-guesthouse.co.uk (Roy) wrote:

> The problem is "Call Centres".

Epson UK support is in-house (at least, it was a short while ago).

That doesn't mean to say that you're wrong about the script or the level
of expertise but you can get to speak to a supervisor or manager who does
know what they're talking about.

Jon.
May 11, 2005 10:28:30 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

while this isn't really on the original topic, it may be of use to
some...

I am investigating a few different cleaning fluids for my suite of
Epson printers. The main reason is that not all are in continuous
use, but when we need them, they must work within a reasonable amount
of time. And, we are not in the habit of making throw-away prints to
keep the heads going.

The reason I bring this up is that it may solve many problems... the
idea is to soak the 'sponge' in the dock with cleaning fluid and let
the heads sit over night. I admit I don't know the actual terms for
the parts, but it shouldn't be hard to figure out. The trick, then,
is to use just enough fluid in a clean sponge to break up the clogs
without using so much that the head is damaged. After soaking, run a
few cleaning cycles.

This appears to work with both Epson and 3rd party inks, but I highly
recommend *careful* testing on your own. We've done this on two
9600s, two 2200s, a 7600 and seen it done on a 4000. None had
problems.
May 11, 2005 10:28:30 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

oh yeah... the fluids I've tried are about $35US/litre. Kind of
expensive, but we only use 1/2 oz or so at a shot. That lasts quite a
long time. My current source is a local vendor with no web site, but
I'm sure a little time w/ Google will get the needed information on
supplies.
Anonymous
May 11, 2005 11:30:48 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

"Davy" <davecoe@blueyonder.co-dot-uk.no-spam.invalid> wrote in message
news:b9840$4280ef74$455da0d2$28871@allthenewsgroups.com...
> Read Woe of Epson C62 lower down the listings.
>
> I had a C62 it went faulty during warrenty, they exchanged it and
> guess what - that went the same way in about the same amount of time
> with the same symptoms
>
> When I got the xchanged unit I thought I would get a new warrenty - NO
> no said Epson the warrenty starts from the day of purchase they
> said...!
>
> So No more Epsons for me.
>

Name a manufacturer that does supply a full new warranty with replacement
equipment? As far as I know none of them do.
Anonymous
May 11, 2005 3:45:14 PM

Archived from groups: 24hoursupport.helpdesk,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

I think that tech is wrong at Epson. I am sure they strongly recommend
Epson cartridges but it doesn't void the warranty if you use aftermarket
ink. Call and ask someone else.





"Miss Perspicacia Tick" <test@test.com> wrote in message
news:Fu4ge.34540$a25.4744@fe06.highwinds-media.phx...
> Just spoken to Epson TS because I believe the red nozzle in the printhead
> is dead.
>
> Epson: - Welcome to Epson's eTalk. My name is X. How may I help you?
> Me: - I have an R800 and I believe the red nozzle is dead. I've wasted two
> sets of tanks cleaning
> Epson: - What make of cartridges are you using?
> Me: - OEM
> Epson: - You should always use genuine Epson. The use of OEM cartridges
> will void your warranty.
>
> By this point I was pissing myself. OK, I was annoyed about my printer,
> but an OEM that doesn't know what OEM stands for? This was too much...
>
> Me: - You do know what OEM stands for, don't you?
> Epson: - The only OEM I know is non-Epson.
>
> I did a quick scan of printer companies to see if I could unearth one
> using the initials OEM. I couldn't.
>
> Me: - OEM stands for Original Equipment Manufacturer. How can that be
> anything other than genuine Epson?
> Epson: - No it doesn't. OEM cartridges aren't genuine Epson.
> Me: - What are they then? Name me a manufacturer of OEM cartridges.
> Epson: - /silence/
> Me: - Well?
> Epson: - JetTec. Many people use JetTec.
> Me: - That's a third party manufacturer
> Epson: - No they're OEM
> Me: - No, they're third-party
>
> He started getting snotty at this point insisting that I didn't know
> anything. I terminated the conversation. I'm going to call them tomorrow,
> and see if I get someone who does know the correct meaning of OEM.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> In memory of MS MVP Alex Nichol: http://www.dts-l.org/
>
Anonymous
May 11, 2005 3:55:40 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

"Safetymom123" <safetymom123@prodigy.net> wrote:

> I think that tech is wrong at Epson. I am sure they strongly
> recommend Epson cartridges but it doesn't void the warranty if
> you use aftermarket ink. Call and ask someone else.

Duh!

I do belive Miss Perspicacia Tick understands. ;-)

> "Miss Perspicacia Tick" <test@test.com> wrote in message
> news:Fu4ge.34540$a25.4744@fe06.highwinds-media.phx...
>> Just spoken to Epson TS because I believe the red nozzle in the
>> printhead is dead.

-snip-


>> He started getting snotty at this point insisting that I didn't
>> know anything. I terminated the conversation. I'm going to call
>> them tomorrow, and see if I get someone who does know the
>> correct meaning of OEM.
Anonymous
May 11, 2005 6:15:18 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

After seeing all of these headaches with Epson printers I am glad I did
not get one.

lokki wrote:

>while this isn't really on the original topic, it may be of use to
>some...
>
>I am investigating a few different cleaning fluids for my suite of
>Epson printers. The main reason is that not all are in continuous
>use, but when we need them, they must work within a reasonable amount
>of time. And, we are not in the habit of making throw-away prints to
>keep the heads going.
>
>The reason I bring this up is that it may solve many problems... the
>idea is to soak the 'sponge' in the dock with cleaning fluid and let
>the heads sit over night. I admit I don't know the actual terms for
>the parts, but it shouldn't be hard to figure out. The trick, then,
>is to use just enough fluid in a clean sponge to break up the clogs
>without using so much that the head is damaged. After soaking, run a
>few cleaning cycles.
>
>This appears to work with both Epson and 3rd party inks, but I highly
>recommend *careful* testing on your own. We've done this on two
>9600s, two 2200s, a 7600 and seen it done on a 4000. None had
>problems.
>
>
>
Anonymous
May 11, 2005 6:15:52 PM

Archived from groups: 24hoursupport.helpdesk,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

Let's explore the term OEM a little more shall we.

I have been building and upgrading my own PC's for several years now.
Whenever I buy a new component I always try to buy an OEM model. So exactly
what is it that I get? It is not a third party or compatible product, but a
component built by an original equipment manufacturer, and then sold on via
a third party distributor.
Usually the component comes in plain packaging with no manual or "free
software", other than that it is exactly the same product as the genuine
resale product.

I have never purchased an OEM product that was made by a third party
manufacturer.

I'll agree that in a lot of cases the Brand name is not the manufacturer,
but in all cases that I have ever come accross, an OEM product is the same
product as the genuine product, but packaged for bulk buy rather than
resale.

--
Mick Doherty
http://dotnetrix.co.uk/nothing.html


"George E. Cawthon" <GeorgeC-Boise@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:4Q6ge.199515$cg1.11417@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> pcbutts1 wrote:
>> You guys are just as dense as that Epson tech. If you bought a brand new
>> Epson printer it is going to come with an Epson ink cartridge not a
>> Jettec or anybody else's.
>>
>
> I agree. Somebody can't understand English. Original Equipment
> Manufacture means that it is what was used in the new item. It doesn't
> make any difference if Epson contracted the tanks or any other part out to
> other companies, it is what was in the new item.
>
> The OP error was in getting fancy and saying OEM. She should have just
> said Epson tanks.
Anonymous
May 11, 2005 6:27:25 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

"measekite" <measekite@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Wroge.15418$J12.10571@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com...
> After seeing all of these headaches with Epson printers I am glad I did
> not get one.
>

You should join a few of the printer / digital photography forurms, and see
all the problems people are having with Canon printers.....
Anonymous
May 11, 2005 6:37:42 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

Ivor Floppy wrote:

>"measekite" <measekite@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:Wroge.15418$J12.10571@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com...
>
>
>>After seeing all of these headaches with Epson printers I am glad I did
>>not get one.
>>
>>
>>
>
>You should join a few of the printer / digital photography forurms, and see
>all the problems people are having with Canon printers.....
>
>
About 1 Canon for every 20 Epsons. And that is jsut a rough count.

>
>
>
Anonymous
May 11, 2005 6:59:02 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

"measekite" <measekite@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:WMoge.15424$J12.2641@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com...
>
>
> Ivor Floppy wrote:
>
>>"measekite" <measekite@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>news:Wroge.15418$J12.10571@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com...
>>
>>>After seeing all of these headaches with Epson printers I am glad I did
>>>not get one.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>You should join a few of the printer / digital photography forurms, and
>>see all the problems people are having with Canon printers.....
> About 1 Canon for every 20 Epsons. And that is jsut a rough count.
>
Perhaps you should have a read of
http://www.stevesforums.com/forums/view_forum.php?id=40 - just as an
example.




Now, can you provide me with evidence that shows 20 Epson problems for every
1 Canon problem?

No, I thought not.
May 11, 2005 9:26:57 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

> Jon O'Brienwrote:
In article
<b9840$4280ef74$455da0d2$28871@allthenewsgroups.com>,
>
> You've proved that your C62s clogged, which is not the same thing.
>
> For the Nth time: many people have used Epson inkjet printers for
years
> without having more than the occasional blockage which is easily
cleared
> by running a head cleaning cycle. I'm one of them.
>
> Davy replies:
> Proves it beyond a shadow of a doubt, you like to quote but without
any explanation so what is not the same thing....?
>
> Is a head clog not an head clog then, yes I agree there's alot of
Epson's about and don't have the trouble that I HAVE EXPERIENCED, but
there are complaints about Epsons clogging and not just C62's you only
need to look around
>
> T he problems arose using GENUINE EPSON INK's so am I right again in
saying that original inks are as liable to clog than any other ink? So
what is not the same then?
Anonymous
May 11, 2005 9:58:59 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

Oh, now I understand what you are complaining about Davy.

You think that when you get a warranty replacement item, the warranty
starts all over again? Well, let me see, you buy a new car, and the
computer in it fails at 20,000 miles into your second year. Do you
think the whole car now starts with a new warranty as if it was a new
car? Or that, the computer in the car now gets a new 36 month 40,000
mile warranty?

Epson, rather than repairing your printer, which might takes weeks to
do, and does an over the counter exchange. Often it is someone else's
printer that was repaired which you will get. Just like your printer
should have been repaired and provided to someone else, rather than
tossed in the bin.

So, in effect, they fixed "something" since the whole printer wasn't
dysfunctional, only one or a few parts. Just like the car, your printer
continues to have the remainder of your warranty, usually if your
printer is almost out of warranty and it is repaired they give a 90 day
warranty even if the printer is out of warranty.

VERY few companies provide a new warranty when they repair or replace a
product. It is a continuation of your previous warranty.

Have you not dealt with warranty services before?


Art

Davy wrote:

> Read Woe of Epson C62 lower down the listings.
>
> I had a C62 it went faulty during warrenty, they exchanged it and
> guess what - that went the same way in about the same amount of time
> with the same symptoms
>
> When I got the xchanged unit I thought I would get a new warrenty - NO
> no said Epson the warrenty starts from the day of purchase they
> said...!
>
> So No more Epsons for me.
>
> I wonder if your's went the same way...... Did it want a nozzle clean,
> then more and more nozzle cleans as time went by, I bet like me you
> wasted tons of ink.
>
> Some folks say you shouldn't use third party inks - BUT I DIDN't,
> whilst under warrenty I ensured I printed regularly and used GENUINE
> INKS and from my write up you will find I still had 'clogged heads'
> So I say Epsons will clog wheter you use third party inks or genuine
> inks - I've prove it
>
> I imagine your problem like mine, got worse over time - be interested
> to know out of curiousity.
>
> Davy
>
Anonymous
May 11, 2005 10:00:40 PM

Archived from groups: 24hoursupport.helpdesk,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

I believe Epson US's head offices are still located in Torrence
California, but you got the right country! ;-)

Art


Kevin wrote:


>
> When I called Epson in the US, located in New York as I recall, I was
> treated with respect and my issues were dealt with quickly and fairly. I
> had a problem with my 820 and a supervisor offered to send me a new R200,
> plus a free black cartridge and free shipping with 10% off the website
> price.
>
Anonymous
May 11, 2005 10:02:02 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

One more thing that may explain part of this disagreement.

Epson has admitted there has been a large problem with counterfeit ink
cartridges that they themselves cannot detect from the outSide box are
not their own.

If Epson can't tell without opening the cartridge or examining the ink,
how can anyone be positive they have an Epson cartridge? Any smaller
store that buys through a jobber, my have non-epson "Epson" cartridges.


Art

Jon O'Brien wrote:

> In article <b9840$4280ef74$455da0d2$28871@allthenewsgroups.com>,
> davecoe@blueyonder.co-dot-uk.no-spam.invalid (Davy) wrote:
>
>
>>So I say Epsons will clog wheter you use third party inks or genuine
>>inks - I've prove it
>
>
> You've proved that your C62s clogged, which is not the same thing.
>
> For the Nth time: many people have used Epson inkjet printers for years
> without having more than the occasional blockage which is easily cleared
> by running a head cleaning cycle. I'm one of them.
>
> Jon.
Anonymous
May 11, 2005 10:19:46 PM

Archived from groups: 24hoursupport.helpdesk,comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

This post certainly brought a lot of waffle out, but for most sane people
the Original Equipment Manufacturer sure means, The Manufacturer who
Originally made the Equipment. The bulk buyers are just firms who Mod them
and rebadge them..J

"Miss Perspicacia Tick" <test@test.com> wrote in message
news:Fu4ge.34540$a25.4744@fe06.highwinds-media.phx...
> Just spoken to Epson TS because I believe the red nozzle in the printhead
> is dead.
>
> Epson: - Welcome to Epson's eTalk. My name is X. How may I help you?
> Me: - I have an R800 and I believe the red nozzle is dead. I've wasted two
> sets of tanks cleaning
> Epson: - What make of cartridges are you using?
> Me: - OEM
> Epson: - You should always use genuine Epson. The use of OEM cartridges
> will void your warranty.
>
> By this point I was pissing myself. OK, I was annoyed about my printer,
> but an OEM that doesn't know what OEM stands for? This was too much...
>
> Me: - You do know what OEM stands for, don't you?
> Epson: - The only OEM I know is non-Epson.
>
> I did a quick scan of printer companies to see if I could unearth one
> using the initials OEM. I couldn't.
>
> Me: - OEM stands for Original Equipment Manufacturer. How can that be
> anything other than genuine Epson?
> Epson: - No it doesn't. OEM cartridges aren't genuine Epson.
> Me: - What are they then? Name me a manufacturer of OEM cartridges.
> Epson: - /silence/
> Me: - Well?
> Epson: - JetTec. Many people use JetTec.
> Me: - That's a third party manufacturer
> Epson: - No they're OEM
> Me: - No, they're third-party
>
> He started getting snotty at this point insisting that I didn't know
> anything. I terminated the conversation. I'm going to call them tomorrow,
> and see if I get someone who does know the correct meaning of OEM.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> In memory of MS MVP Alex Nichol: http://www.dts-l.org/
>
May 12, 2005 11:52:51 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

Davy,

100% IPA will attack many poly plastics, iirc. Storebought stuff (here
in the US) is generally 91%, and seems to be pretty kind to most
surfaces. I haven't thought about it much, but I don't see why it
wouldn't work to remove ink. The cleaning fluids we are using tend to
have small amounts of glycerin and a lower vapor pressure so they
don't evaporate as quickly.

I'm a little hesitant to try it, though, as the thinner IPA might wick
(capillary action) into the ink well - not sure about that, though.

aside - I see you are in Manchester. I'm guessing you *don't* work for
the AWE, given this recent article:

http://www.manchester.gov.uk/news/2005/april/nuclear.ht...

:) 
May 12, 2005 4:51:51 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

"lokki" <lokki@act-1-dot-net.no-spam.invalid> wrote in message
news:cc828$42830b53$455da0d2$7682@allthenewsgroups.com...
> Davy,
>
> 100% IPA will attack many poly plastics, iirc. Storebought stuff (here
> in the US) is generally 91%, and seems to be pretty kind to most
> surfaces. I haven't thought about it much, but I don't see why it
> wouldn't work to remove ink. The cleaning fluids we are using tend to
> have small amounts of glycerin and a lower vapor pressure so they
> don't evaporate as quickly.
>
> I'm a little hesitant to try it, though, as the thinner IPA might wick
> (capillary action) into the ink well - not sure about that, though.

I use IPA from my local chemist (92% I think) for general cleaning inside
and outside my printers and it hasn't attacked any of the plastics.

For cleaning the nozzles and under the heads I follow Art's recipe for Epson
printers and it works brilliantly.

Mike
Anonymous
May 12, 2005 7:49:00 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

In article <7c3d8$42824061$455da0d2$636@allthenewsgroups.com>,
davecoe@blueyonder.co-dot-uk.no-spam.invalid (Davy) wrote:

> Jon O'Brienwrote:
> In article
> <b9840$4280ef74$455da0d2$28871@allthenewsgroups.com>,
>
> You've proved that your C62s clogged, which is not the same thing.
>
> For the Nth time: many people have used Epson inkjet printers for
> years without having more than the occasional blockage which is easily
> cleared by running a head cleaning cycle. I'm one of them.
>
> Davy replies:
> Proves it beyond a shadow of a doubt, you like to quote but without
> any explanation so what is not the same thing....?

Sorry, I though it was self-evident. There's plenty of doubt.

You said:

> So I say Epsons will clog wheter you use third party inks or genuine
> inks - I've prove it

That implies that you've proved that all Epson printers clog, whatever ink
is being used. You haven't. All you've 'proved' (we'll gloss over the fact
that no one here has seen any actual proof, we've only read your version
of events, which doesn't even _prove_ that you've ever owned a printer) is
that you had clogging problems with several C62s. You can't use your
limited experience of Epson printers to extrapolate to all models and all
users. It could be that: a) there's something about the way you used the
printers that caused the clogging. b) there's something in the environment
where your printers were kept that caused the clogging (dust, low
humidity, etc). c) some C62s clog and all the ones you had were in this
group. d) there was a problem with the C62 design which made it
susceptible to clogging (which I think someone here suggested may be the
case).

> Is a head clog not an head clog then, yes I agree there's alot of
> Epson's about and don't have the trouble that I HAVE EXPERIENCED, but
> there are complaints about Epsons clogging and not just C62's you only
> need to look around

I'm aware of the reports but, as you have pointed out, there are plenty of
people that don't experience the problem, which makes your statement
'Epsons will clog' a sweeping generalisation which can be proved false. To
use your own words: 'I've prove it'.

> The problems arose using GENUINE EPSON INK's so am I right again in
> saying that original inks are as liable to clog than any other ink?

It supports the experience of others that Epsons can clog, no matter what
ink formulation is used. It doesn't prove, one way or the other, that they
are '...as liable to clog...'. However, it ignores the fact that some
people /never/ have serious clogging problems, regardless of which inks
they use.

What you're saying is equivalent to arguing that the common factor amongst
people who are killed crossing the road is that they were crossing the
road at the time, therefore crossing the road kills you. It can, but it
doesn't always and more people die whilst not crossing a road than die
crossing one. What's more likely is that some were being careless, some
were drunk, some were hit by a careless driver, some weren't actually
crossing the road but fell or were pushed into it, etc.

Clogging may be due to:

- A badly designed printer/print head.
- How often the printer is used.
- The kind of ink being used.
- How the printer is used (E.g. paper that produces lots of dust).
- Where the printer is used (E.g. low-humidity environment, direct
sunlight).
- Some other cause, of which I'm unaware.

Until you've carried out tests which rule out every possibility, you
haven't _proved_ anything.

Jon.
Anonymous
May 12, 2005 7:49:01 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

Jon O'Brien wrote:

>In article <7c3d8$42824061$455da0d2$636@allthenewsgroups.com>,
>davecoe@blueyonder.co-dot-uk.no-spam.invalid (Davy) wrote:
>
>
>
>>Jon O'Brienwrote:
>>In article
>><b9840$4280ef74$455da0d2$28871@allthenewsgroups.com>,
>>
>>You've proved that your C62s clogged, which is not the same thing.
>>
>>For the Nth time: many people have used Epson inkjet printers for
>>years without having more than the occasional blockage which is easily
>>cleared by running a head cleaning cycle. I'm one of them.
>>
>>Davy replies:
>>Proves it beyond a shadow of a doubt, you like to quote but without
>>any explanation so what is not the same thing....?
>>
>>
>
>Sorry, I though it was self-evident. There's plenty of doubt.
>
>You said:
>
>
>
>>So I say Epsons will clog wheter you use third party inks or genuine
>>inks - I've prove it
>>
>>
>
>That implies that you've proved that all Epson printers clog, whatever ink
>is being used. You haven't. All you've 'proved' (we'll gloss over the fact
>that no one here has seen any actual proof, we've only read your version
>of events, which doesn't even _prove_ that you've ever owned a printer) is
>that you had clogging problems with several C62s. You can't use your
>limited experience of Epson printers to extrapolate to all models and all
>users. It could be that: a) there's something about the way you used the
>printers that caused the clogging. b) there's something in the environment
>where your printers were kept that caused the clogging (dust, low
>humidity, etc). c) some C62s clog and all the ones you had were in this
>group. d) there was a problem with the C62 design which made it
>susceptible to clogging (which I think someone here suggested may be the
>case).
>
>
>
>>Is a head clog not an head clog then, yes I agree there's alot of
>>Epson's about and don't have the trouble that I HAVE EXPERIENCED, but
>>there are complaints about Epsons clogging and not just C62's you only
>>need to look around
>>
>>
>
>I'm aware of the reports but, as you have pointed out, there are plenty of
>people that don't experience the problem, which makes your statement
>'Epsons will clog' a sweeping generalisation which can be proved false. To
>use your own words: 'I've prove it'.
>
>
>
>>The problems arose using GENUINE EPSON INK's so am I right again in
>>saying that original inks are as liable to clog than any other ink?
>>
>>
>
>It supports the experience of others that Epsons can clog, no matter what
>ink formulation is used. It doesn't prove, one way or the other, that they
>are '...as liable to clog...'. However, it ignores the fact that some
>people /never/ have serious clogging problems, regardless of which inks
>they use.
>
>

All of everything said in this post is true. However, very generally it
is known that Epson printers as a class have a greater tendency to clog
than Canon and that Canon, while much smaller, will have a greater
propensity to clog over an HP with cart and head together. While it is
generally true it is equally true that many people have had the right
mix of usage that they did not experience any clogs or just an
occassional one. It is also true, as admitted by the Epson Factory Rep I
spoke with that Epson goes through numerous unasked for cleaning cycles
and uses more ink.

>What you're saying is equivalent to arguing that the common factor amongst
>people who are killed crossing the road is that they were crossing the
>road at the time, therefore crossing the road kills you. It can, but it
>doesn't always and more people die whilst not crossing a road than die
>crossing one. What's more likely is that some were being careless, some
>were drunk, some were hit by a careless driver, some weren't actually
>crossing the road but fell or were pushed into it, etc.
>
>Clogging may be due to:
>
>- A badly designed printer/print head.
>- How often the printer is used.
>- The kind of ink being used.
>- How the printer is used (E.g. paper that produces lots of dust).
>- Where the printer is used (E.g. low-humidity environment, direct
>sunlight).
>- Some other cause, of which I'm unaware.
>
>Until you've carried out tests which rule out every possibility, you
>haven't _proved_ anything.
>
>Jon.
>
>
Anonymous
May 12, 2005 9:28:00 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

In article <BcKge.1674$Y81.957@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com>,
measekite@yahoo.com (measekite) wrote:

> ...very generally it is known that Epson printers as a class have a
> greater tendency to clog than Canon...

That may be true but without verified figures showing how many experience
clogging as a percentage of units sold it's only speculation. I believe
Epson sells more inkjet printers than Canon in most world markets.

Whatever the truth may be, suggesting that all Epson printers clog is
misleading. More helpful would be to say that clogging in Epson printers
seems, generally, to be unrelated to ink formulation and to pass on to
trying to discover what factors are truly significant. Perspective buyers
can then decide whether or not to buy an Epson based on their projected
usage, environment, etc.

Jon.
Anonymous
May 12, 2005 9:28:01 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

Jon O'Brien wrote:

>In article <BcKge.1674$Y81.957@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com>,
>measekite@yahoo.com (measekite) wrote:
>
>
>
>>...very generally it is known that Epson printers as a class have a
>>greater tendency to clog than Canon...
>>
>>
>
>That may be true but without verified figures showing how many experience
>clogging as a percentage of units sold it's only speculation. I believe
>Epson sells more inkjet printers than Canon in most world markets.
>
>Whatever the truth may be, suggesting that all Epson printers clog is
>misleading. More helpful would be to say that clogging in Epson printers
>seems, generally, to be unrelated to ink formulation
>

Yes but more people who are not using Epson inks appear to be doing more
complaining about clogs.

>and to pass on to
>trying to discover what factors are truly significant. Perspective buyers
>can then decide whether or not to buy an Epson based on their projected
>usage, environment, etc.
>
>Jon.
>
>
Anonymous
May 13, 2005 2:09:24 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

The message <memo.20050512172831.2156A@blue.compulink.co.uk>
from Jon@NOonlySPAMbrowsingTHANX.com (Jon O'Brien) contains these words:

> In article <BcKge.1674$Y81.957@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com>,
> measekite@yahoo.com (measekite) wrote:

> > ...very generally it is known that Epson printers as a class have a
> > greater tendency to clog than Canon...

> That may be true but without verified figures showing how many experience
> clogging as a percentage of units sold it's only speculation. I believe
> Epson sells more inkjet printers than Canon in most world markets.

Hi just found this group and topic.
Can one 'unclog' an Epson printer? Has anyone tried? Had any success?
I've tried the nozzle clean etc many times but without success.
Appreciate your thoughts.
Cheers
Jim
PS A Stylus color 440 and a Stylus Color lls
Anonymous
May 13, 2005 3:44:17 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

On Thu, 12 May 2005 22:09:24 +0100, J L Williams
<j.l.williams@zetnet.co.uk> wrote:

>The message <memo.20050512172831.2156A@blue.compulink.co.uk>
>from Jon@NOonlySPAMbrowsingTHANX.com (Jon O'Brien) contains these words:
>
>> In article <BcKge.1674$Y81.957@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com>,
>> measekite@yahoo.com (measekite) wrote:
>
>> > ...very generally it is known that Epson printers as a class have a
>> > greater tendency to clog than Canon...
>
>> That may be true but without verified figures showing how many experience
>> clogging as a percentage of units sold it's only speculation. I believe
>> Epson sells more inkjet printers than Canon in most world markets.
>
>Hi just found this group and topic.
>Can one 'unclog' an Epson printer? Has anyone tried? Had any success?
>I've tried the nozzle clean etc many times but without success.
>Appreciate your thoughts.
>Cheers
>Jim
>PS A Stylus color 440 and a Stylus Color lls

Find a post by Arthur Entlich. Write to him and he'll send you a
manual by email for free on how to unclog.

--

Hecate - The Real One
Hecate@newsguy.com
Fashion: Buying things you don't need, with money
you don't have, to impress people you don't like...
May 13, 2005 4:28:20 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

Bottom line - Many people love their Epson printers and the photos they
produce. If they have eventually clogged with OEM or non-OEM inks the good
news is that nearly all head clogs can be completely cleared.
Unfortunately, the user manual only suggests the cleaning cycles from their
software. Luckily we have Arthur Entlich's cleaning manual as a resource
for going beyond clicking the head cleaning button, and almost all Epson
(and many other printers) can be restored to excellent function with very
little effort or time expended. Instead of bemoaning the potential for
clogs we should focus on these simple maintenance steps to keep our printers
functioning. BTW, my Epson Stylus 900 clogged occasionally and I only use
OEM inks in this printer. Easily fixed. My Canon i960 with non-oem
(carefully selected) inks has not clogged yet with almost a year of use.
When it does, I have learned from people who post to this and other forums
how to solve the problem.

"MikeD" <mike.dunstan@nochance.uk.thalesgroup.com> wrote in message
news:D 5vg2m$66t$1@rdel.co.uk...
> "lokki" <lokki@act-1-dot-net.no-spam.invalid> wrote in message
> news:cc828$42830b53$455da0d2$7682@allthenewsgroups.com...
>> Davy,
>>
>> 100% IPA will attack many poly plastics, iirc. Storebought stuff (here
>> in the US) is generally 91%, and seems to be pretty kind to most
>> surfaces. I haven't thought about it much, but I don't see why it
>> wouldn't work to remove ink. The cleaning fluids we are using tend to
>> have small amounts of glycerin and a lower vapor pressure so they
>> don't evaporate as quickly.
>>
>> I'm a little hesitant to try it, though, as the thinner IPA might wick
>> (capillary action) into the ink well - not sure about that, though.
>
> I use IPA from my local chemist (92% I think) for general cleaning inside
> and outside my printers and it hasn't attacked any of the plastics.
>
> For cleaning the nozzles and under the heads I follow Art's recipe for
> Epson
> printers and it works brilliantly.
>
> Mike
>
>
Anonymous
May 13, 2005 6:21:19 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

Burt wrote:

>Bottom line - Many people love their Epson printers and the photos they
>produce. If they have eventually clogged with OEM or non-OEM inks the good
>news is that nearly all head clogs can be completely cleared.
>Unfortunately, the user manual only suggests the cleaning cycles from their
>software. Luckily we have Arthur Entlich's cleaning manual as a resource
>for going beyond clicking the head cleaning button, and almost all Epson
>(and many other printers) can be restored to excellent function with very
>little effort or time expended. Instead of bemoaning the potential for
>clogs we should focus on these simple maintenance steps to keep our printers
>functioning. BTW, my Epson Stylus 900 clogged occasionally and I only use
>OEM inks in this printer. Easily fixed. My Canon i960 with non-oem
>(carefully selected) inks has not clogged yet with almost a year of use.
>When it does, I have learned from people who post to this and other forums
>how to solve the problem.
>
>

When you buy a car you really do not want a maintenance headache. You
want to drive. Well the same should be true about printing. You want
to do photography and enjoy the result; not nursemaid a printer.

>"MikeD" <mike.dunstan@nochance.uk.thalesgroup.com> wrote in message
>news:D 5vg2m$66t$1@rdel.co.uk...
>
>
>>"lokki" <lokki@act-1-dot-net.no-spam.invalid> wrote in message
>>news:cc828$42830b53$455da0d2$7682@allthenewsgroups.com...
>>
>>
>>>Davy,
>>>
>>>100% IPA will attack many poly plastics, iirc. Storebought stuff (here
>>>in the US) is generally 91%, and seems to be pretty kind to most
>>>surfaces. I haven't thought about it much, but I don't see why it
>>>wouldn't work to remove ink. The cleaning fluids we are using tend to
>>>have small amounts of glycerin and a lower vapor pressure so they
>>>don't evaporate as quickly.
>>>
>>>I'm a little hesitant to try it, though, as the thinner IPA might wick
>>>(capillary action) into the ink well - not sure about that, though.
>>>
>>>
>>I use IPA from my local chemist (92% I think) for general cleaning inside
>>and outside my printers and it hasn't attacked any of the plastics.
>>
>>For cleaning the nozzles and under the heads I follow Art's recipe for
>>Epson
>>printers and it works brilliantly.
>>
>>Mike
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
May 13, 2005 7:37:38 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

"measekite" <measekite@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:zaUge.16324$J12.1288@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com...
>
>
> Bvrt wrote:
>
>>Bottom line - Many people love their Epson printers and the photos they
>>prodvce. If they have eventvally clogged with OEM or non-OEM inks the
>>good news is that nearly all head clogs can be completely cleared.
>>Unfortvnately, the vser manval only svggests the cleaning cycles from
>>their software. Lvckily we have Arthvr Entlich's cleaning manval as a
>>resovrce for going beyond clicking the head cleaning bvtton, and almost
>>all Epson (and many other printers) can be restored to excellent fvnction
>>with very little effort or time expended. Instead of bemoaning the
>>potential for clogs we shovld focvs on these simple maintenance steps to
>>keep ovr printers fvnctioning. BTW, my Epson Stylvs 900 clogged
>>occasionally and I only vse OEM inks in this printer. Easily fixed. My
>>Canon i960 with non-oem (carefvlly selected) inks has not clogged yet with
>>almost a year of vse. When it does, I have learned from people who post to
>>this and other forvms how to solve the problem.
>>
>
> When yov bvy a car yov really do not want a maintenance headache. Yov
> want to drive. Well the same shovld be trve abovt printing. Yov want to
> do photography and enjoy the resvlt; not nvrsemaid a printer.

(snip)

Hate to clve yov in on a fact of life, bvt EVERYTHING reqvires some
maintenance and occasional repairs. Even yov and me! Even the most revered
cars with the best Consvmers Union stamp of approval are rated as arriving
with "x" nvmber of defects, and every car I've ever owned, from Porsche to
VW bvg to Honda to Toyota, came with a printed maintenance schedvle and a
dealer with a bvsy repair department. Years back when Jags were plagved
with electrical problems I had friends who continved to bvy and happily
drive them. A few of them were medical professionals who were also skilled
avto mechanics, and they knew exactly what they were bvying and why. Some
additional maintenance was worth the great driving experience to them. To
say nothing of friends who, in spite of the terrible repvtation for
reqviring repairs, loved the way their Ferraris drove and handled. What yov
describe as a headache is, for some, jvst a tradeoff for something they
enjoy vsing. It is the glass half empty vs. the glass half fvll
phylosophy --- yov call it a headache and someone else jvst shrvgs it off as
simple maintenance to vse something they enjoy.

More specifically, my Epson printer only clogged mildly after more than
three years of vse, and an hovr's worth of maintenance at home fixed it.
Not exactly playing nvrsmaid and certainly not a maintenance headache.
Anonymous
May 13, 2005 3:44:09 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

The message <01n781h34cduj521k8a7t532ha1u9jjh1o@4ax.com>
from Hecate <hecate@newsguy.com> contains these words:

> >Hi just found this group and topic.
> >Can one 'unclog' an Epson printer? Has anyone tried? Had any success?
> >I've tried the nozzle clean etc many times but without success.
> >Appreciate your thoughts.
> >Cheers
> >Jim
> >PS A Stylus color 440 and a Stylus Color lls

> Find a post by Arthur Entlich. Write to him and he'll send you a
> manual by email for free on how to unclog.

Thanks very kindly. I'll do just that :) 
Jim
Anonymous
May 13, 2005 5:02:14 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

"measekite" <measekite@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:zaUge.16324$J12.1288@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com...
>
>
> Burt wrote:
>
>>Bottom line - Many people love their Epson printers and the photos they
>>produce. If they have eventually clogged with OEM or non-OEM inks the
>>good news is that nearly all head clogs can be completely cleared.
>>Unfortunately, the user manual only suggests the cleaning cycles from
>>their software. Luckily we have Arthur Entlich's cleaning manual as a
>>resource for going beyond clicking the head cleaning button, and almost
>>all Epson (and many other printers) can be restored to excellent function
>>with very little effort or time expended. Instead of bemoaning the
>>potential for clogs we should focus on these simple maintenance steps to
>>keep our printers functioning. BTW, my Epson Stylus 900 clogged
>>occasionally and I only use OEM inks in this printer. Easily fixed. My
>>Canon i960 with non-oem (carefully selected) inks has not clogged yet with
>>almost a year of use. When it does, I have learned from people who post to
>>this and other forums how to solve the problem.
>>
>
> When you buy a car you really do not want a maintenance headache. You
> want to drive.

So you *never* check the oil, water, tyre pressure, brake fluid levels etc?
I'd hate to be with you when you breakdown.....
Anonymous
May 13, 2005 7:11:57 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

Davy,

You are certainly entitled to your anger and frustration with Epson
products based upon your experience with them. It seems the Epson UK
division you dealt with was less that fair or efficient.

However, I will point out (once again, for the sake of fairness) that
there is hardly ANY company that, when replacing the product under
warranty, starts the warranty fresh again.

A few companies occasionally do this as a good will gesture, but it's
very rare. Items that come with lifetime warranties do it, because the
warranty is supposedly for the lifetime of the owner or potential useful
life of the product.

Almost every guarantee or warranty I have read states that should the
product be replaced or repaired under warranty that the product will
have the remainder of the warranty from the original purchase date or
something like 90 days, which ever is longer.

Did you bother to read the warranty that came with your printer? What
did it say?

Art

Davy wrote:

> Read Woe of Epson C62 lower down the listings.
>
> I had a C62 it went faulty during warrenty, they exchanged it and
> guess what - that went the same way in about the same amount of time
> with the same symptoms
>
> When I got the xchanged unit I thought I would get a new warrenty - NO
> no said Epson the warrenty starts from the day of purchase they
> said...!
>
> So No more Epsons for me.
>
> I wonder if your's went the same way...... Did it want a nozzle clean,
> then more and more nozzle cleans as time went by, I bet like me you
> wasted tons of ink.
>
> Some folks say you shouldn't use third party inks - BUT I DIDN't,
> whilst under warrenty I ensured I printed regularly and used GENUINE
> INKS and from my write up you will find I still had 'clogged heads'
> So I say Epsons will clog wheter you use third party inks or genuine
> inks - I've prove it
>
> I imagine your problem like mine, got worse over time - be interested
> to know out of curiousity.
>
> Davy
>
!