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Trying to get a grasp on new CPU's

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July 17, 2006 3:52:33 AM

OK, let me try to explain what I have learned so far and what I am not understanding. So I know that Intel just released there new Core 2 Duo. There is the E6300 and the E6400. I know AMD is dropping there prices to compete with Intel. So, what will AMD be coming out with to compete with the new E6300? Would it be worth it to grab one of the AMD chips that drop in prices or grab one of the Core 2 Duo's. I will not spend more than $250 on a CPU and I wan't the best for that.

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July 17, 2006 3:57:45 AM

That all depends on how low AMD goes... no one knows for sure what their new prices will be. I would wait until the new prices hit street...
July 17, 2006 4:01:16 AM

Only thing I know that AMDs responce to Conroe, beside lowering prices, is more twards enthusiast, which is the 4x4 platform:

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July 17, 2006 4:01:35 AM

Quote:
OK, let me try to explain what I have learned so far and what I am not understanding. So I know that Intel just released there new Core 2 Duo. There is the E6300 and the E6400. I know AMD is dropping there prices to compete with Intel. So, what will AMD be coming out with to compete with the new E6300? Would it be worth it to grab one of the AMD chips that drop in prices or grab one of the Core 2 Duo's. I will not spend more than $250 on a CPU and I wan't the best for that.



For that price only the mobo cost will matter. I believe the 6300 is $183 and the 4200+ may be as low as that as well. Anands review shows that the two chips are about neck and neck for high res gaming - they trade several wins. If older Intel mobos support as they should then you should just be deciding on brand because price should be overall the same.
July 17, 2006 4:03:09 AM

AMD currently does not have anything to compete with the core 2. They MAY be able to compete with the core 2 when they go to 65nm, but the data so far says probably not. They probably wont be able to compete with the core 2 until they come out with the K8L. This wont come out until sometime between 2H07 and Q108.

Yes, AMD will drop prices. Will AMD drop prices enough that they have a better performance/price ratio? This is debatable, but most people think the answer is NO. This is because Intel's CPUs are currently cheaper to make since they have a smaller die size. That means they can make many more cpu's on the same 300mm wafer and the same amount of money. So AMD would have to make a HUGE drop in price to be competitive, and they may not be able to make a profit if they drop the prices enough for them to be competitive.

So i would recommend going with core 2 in order to get the best performance/price. But this may change depending on how big the price drop is, but i personally do not expect it to be enough. AMD would have to sell their current $1000 cpu for <$300 , which is very unlikely. They would decrease profits by 2/3.
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July 17, 2006 4:08:20 AM

AMD's answer to Conroe will be the K8L CPU. But based on a recent AMD chart thru Q3 2007, only the AM2 Athlon is on that chart. That means AMD's answer to Conroe may not come out until Q4 2007 or sometime in 2008.

It's been said that the server version of K8L will be coming out in 2007, but that is for socket F, not socket AM2. On top of that, it is unknown how well (if at all) AMD's K8L CPU will compare against Conroe.

Intel has publically stated that they plan to release a new CPU architecture every two years. Assuming Intel can maintain that agressive schedule, Nehalem (Conroe's succesor) will be coming in mid to late 2008. How much better will Nehalem be compared to Conroe? Who knows.

As you can see it becomes quite difficult to guess who will be the performance king and for how long. Conroe is the performance king now. K8L may or may not be the performance king in late 2007/2008. Nehalem may recapture the title in mid to late 2008 if Intel can stick to it's agressive plan.

I would simply grab the Conroe E6300 or E6400. The E6300 is at least as fast as the X2 4400+ and will have a street price of $210 - $220. The E6400 will probably be about $40 or $50 more.
July 17, 2006 4:11:36 AM

Quote:
AMD currently does not have anything to compete with the core 2.


That's not completely true, it's just that Intel's performance per dollar ratio is much better than AMDs. I.E., a 4200+ is pretty close to the E6300, it's just that the 4200+ costs $350 while the E6300 costs $220 (after retail mark-up). But once you hit the E6700 and the X6800, then AMD is left in the dust and just cannot compete.
July 17, 2006 5:35:51 AM

So basically, my best bet would be to grab an E6400 because there is nothing that will compete with that for awhile? Also, im having a really hard time finding a good mobo for that E6400. I know that this isn't the mobo forum but I didn't want to start a new thread.
July 17, 2006 5:58:37 AM

Sorry forgot to ask this, but I not only am I having trouble finding a good mobo for the CPU...I am having trouble finding the actual CPU. I hear its going for around $230, could someone point me in the direction for the mobo and the cpu. Thanks for everything guys, yall are the best ;P
July 17, 2006 6:26:27 AM

A nice guy on these forums pointed me to this mobo -
http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16813128012
Only $150 atm.

My advice (as an AMD fan) is the E6400. Like it was stated above, since the E6400 almost performed at the same level as an FX-62 in every test, for AMD to compete, they would have to drop the $1000 chip to about $250 (Tankguys price for the E6400). Most likely, that will not happen.

Links to chips for sale -
http://www.tankguys.biz/processors-core-c-29_178.html
July 17, 2006 7:03:15 AM

Quote:
OK, let me try to explain what I have learned so far and what I am not understanding. So I know that Intel just released there new Core 2 Duo. There is the E6300 and the E6400. I know AMD is dropping there prices to compete with Intel. So, what will AMD be coming out with to compete with the new E6300? Would it be worth it to grab one of the AMD chips that drop in prices or grab one of the Core 2 Duo's. I will not spend more than $250 on a CPU and I wan't the best for that.



What MPjesse said. Wait

Im looking at Conroe myself, but if AMD makes price offering I cant refuse, well I need a new system yesterday so.....

Actual retail pricing changes for AMD set to occur 23 July 2006
Actual retail release (though some are apparently out now) of Core 2 CPUs set to occur 27 July 2006
Corresponding Intel P4 retail price changes, I m guessing, 27 July 2006


Peace
July 17, 2006 7:12:50 AM

Quote:


This is actually a good point --- there are two metrics that a savvy computer buyer will look at performance and bang for the buck, or performance/dollar. It is conceivable that AMD will drop prices so low as to compete with Core 2 Duo that they retain the Price/Performance ratio.

Here is my argument against. The opposing curves approach their limits differently. What I mean by this is performance is limited only by the top bin/capability of the manufacturer, price however approaches zero asymptotically. That is to say, let's assume AMD drops prices to get X2 5000+ to have a price/performance ratio comparable to the Intel midrange, this means they must drop to below 250 bucks or so (and E6400). So the quesiton is, say a 5000+ cossts 250 (leading the price/perfomrance ratio over E6400) is it worth the extra 80 to 100 bucks to get a processor that smacks an FX62? (6600?)

The point is ratio's and absolutes drive to different purchasing decisions. While they may acheive their price/performance metric, what about a buyer who budgets enough to say hey "I want the best performance my budget can allow", the choice here then is clear -- flip for the extra 100 bucks to go for the FX-killer. The price scale and the ratio scale do not converge the same way.

AMD's drive to achieve their goal may not be the wisest decision.

Jack


Yup, no arguments there. It's obvious that nobody really needs an X6800 right now but to those with deep pockets, having the best definitely means something. And that's something that AMD cannot deliver on at the moment. When the 4X4 launches, then it might change.

Quote:
A nice guy on these forums pointed me to this mobo -
http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16813128012
Only $150 atm.


That's the same mobo I'm looking at, I found it by luck when searching for a cheapo mobo. And though I don't understand any of this, it seems that someone pulled off some impressive numbers with that mobo and a E6300.
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=10...
July 17, 2006 7:18:07 AM

Quote:


That's the same mobo I'm looking at, I found it by luck when searching for a cheapo mobo. And though I don't understand any of this, it seems that someone pulled off some impressive numbers with that mobo and a E6300.
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=10...


This is because you can still overclock the E6300, you just can't change the multiplier, so you better get some really good memory, b/c you do this by cranking up the FSB.
July 17, 2006 9:06:29 AM

I personally like OCZ dimms for overclocking. Even their value series are tough as nails when overclocked. Its really impressive.

So, basically, OCZ is NOT just a pretty face. (ie famous brand).
They actually deliver.
July 17, 2006 9:33:58 AM

Quote:
AMD currently does not have anything to compete with the core 2. They MAY be able to compete with the core 2 when they go to 65nm, but the data so far says probably not. They probably wont be able to compete with the core 2 until they come out with the K8L. This wont come out until sometime between 2H07 and Q108.

Yes, AMD will drop prices. Will AMD drop prices enough that they have a better performance/price ratio? This is debatable, but most people think the answer is NO. This is because Intel's CPUs are currently cheaper to make since they have a smaller die size. That means they can make many more cpu's on the same 300mm wafer and the same amount of money. So AMD would have to make a HUGE drop in price to be competitive, and they may not be able to make a profit if they drop the prices enough for them to be competitive.

So i would recommend going with core 2 in order to get the best performance/price. But this may change depending on how big the price drop is, but i personally do not expect it to be enough. AMD would have to sell their current $1000 cpu for <$300 , which is very unlikely. They would decrease profits by 2/3.


AMD Does have a response to Core 2. A 4x4 platform, a FX62 on one socket and a E6800 EE on the other as a co-processor. Or Maybe, once the rumored japanese companies buy Itanium, they will use it to create a co-processor for AMD. :lol: 
July 17, 2006 10:29:20 AM

Quote:
AMD currently does not have anything to compete with the core 2.


That's not completely true, it's just that Intel's performance per dollar ratio is much better than AMDs. I.E., a 4200+ is pretty close to the E6300, it's just that the 4200+ costs $350 while the E6300 costs $220 (after retail mark-up). But once you hit the E6700 and the X6800, then AMD is left in the dust and just cannot compete.

This is actually a good point --- there are two metrics that a savvy computer buyer will look at performance and bang for the buck, or performance/dollar. It is conceivable that AMD will drop prices so low as to compete with Core 2 Duo that they retain the Price/Performance ratio.

Here is my argument against. The opposing curves approach their limits differently. What I mean by this is performance is limited only by the top bin/capability of the manufacturer, price however approaches zero asymptotically. That is to say, let's assume AMD drops prices to get X2 5000+ to have a price/performance ratio comparable to the Intel midrange, this means they must drop to below 250 bucks or so (and E6400). So the quesiton is, say a 5000+ cossts 250 (leading the price/perfomrance ratio over E6400) is it worth the extra 80 to 100 bucks to get a processor that smacks an FX62? (6600?)

The point is ratio's and absolutes drive to different purchasing decisions. While they may acheive their price/performance metric, what about a buyer who budgets enough to say hey "I want the best performance my budget can allow", the choice here then is clear -- flip for the extra 100 bucks to go for the FX-killer. The price scale and the ratio scale do not converge the same way.

AMD's drive to achieve their goal may not be the wisest decision.

Jack

Buy from Dell or HP (who else?) after July 27 to be sure you'd have good combination of mobo + cpu. For do-it-yourself type, that's debatable.
July 17, 2006 11:54:44 PM

Well personally I like G.Skill. I've used them before and have been pleased. I never overclocked one so I don't know how they hold up.
July 18, 2006 12:01:57 AM

There is more to a computer than just the CPU, you want to look at the price for a complete system.

What is in your current 'rig ?
July 18, 2006 4:45:44 AM

I don't have a rig anymore...I sold it. Im gonna spend about $1000 - $1100 for my new rig.

Details:

CPU: Intel Core 2 Duo E6400
Mobo: ABIT AW8-MAX Socket T (LGA 775) Intel 955X ATX
RAM: OCZ Gold 2GB 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400)
VGA: SAPPHIRE Radeon X850XT 256MB
HDD: Seagate Barracuda 320GB 7200 RPM

Not entirely sure on the mobo. Any suggestions would be great.
July 18, 2006 6:01:04 AM

With your price requirement for your new build, assuming $1100 is max, I still recommend the same board I did before:

http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E1681...
Gigabyte GA-965P-DS3 Socket T (LGA 775) Intel P965 Express ATX Intel Motherboard

Other pieces I used in this build:
RAM: TWIN2X2048-6400 Corsair XMS 2GB, DDR2 800 - currently $160 with rebate
http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E1682...

CPU: E6600, but my budget allows a little flex. It will take the E6400 just as well.
HDD: 74GB WD Raptor 10k - but I dont require a lot of space, just speed :twisted:
VGA: I chose an X1900 XT ATI Radeon. All depends on your budget.

You can put a lot more in that system for $1100, not sure where the rest of your money is going, unless you arent in the US. I know overseas prices can be horrible.
July 18, 2006 6:36:00 AM

Well im buying a new case (the clear acrylic one) and some fans and light mods, so on and what not. I don't know if its gonna be $1100, that was just a rough estimate taking in account of shipping and such. No, I don't live overseas, Louisiana here :)  (no not the swamp lol)and yes that mobo was sold out so thats why I went with the Abit. Is that one not good or something? Also, my folks are buying me the CPU for my b-day so thats why I went with the E6400 cause im kinda getting it for free. I might go with the E6600, but im not a MAJOR speed freak, all I do is gaming and not too hardcore games at that. EVE, Guild Wars, BF2, you know stuff like that.

Here is exactly what im getting.

Sunbeam LAC-BHUVB Transparent 5.0 & 8.0mm thick acrylic panels ATX Mid Tower Computer Case $69.99

SONY 16X DVD±R DVD Burner Black IDE $30.99

ABIT AW8-MAX Socket T (LGA 775) Intel 955X ATX $159.99

Seagate Barracuda 7200.10 ST3320620AS (Perpendicular Recording Technology) 320GB 7200 RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive $99.99

OCZ Gold 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) Unbuffered Dual Channel Kit System Memory Model $40.00 Mail-in Rebate $199.99

Rosewill RP500S-2MB ATX 2.01 500W Modular Power Supply /Blue $67.99

SAPPHIRE 100106SR-RD Radeon X850XT 256MB GDDR3 PCI Express x16 Video Card $20.00 Mail-in Rebate $169.00
July 18, 2006 8:05:18 AM

I chose Corsair for its compatibility - to many reviews on various boards dont like Patriot for my taste. Since they have the rebate, its only $2 more for a better brand, so why not?

Some things to think about -
Case - move to all aluminum, helps with heat dissipation, even if you get one with a side window to show off mods.

ABIT - its the older chipset, 955 not 965. The only guarantee for acceptance of Conroes, that I have heard, is the 965 or 975X chipsets from Intel. All of the 975X start at $200, another reason I chose the Corsair, since it is compatible with all of those as well, even the tempermental ASUS.

HDD: personal choice, mine was for the 10k and access times of the Raptor, but if you have need for large storage, many other drives will meet your needs.

RAM: Just check the manufacturer website to make sure its listed as compatible. Nothing worse than having to send it back and wait another week b/c you didnt do the research. I'm not saying the OCZ wont work, just FYI.

PSU: Get a more solid PSU, maybe one w/o lights - efficiency is the primary goal for a more solid power flow - that and (for me) quiet fans are key.

GPU: Cant stress enough, even for the games you play (as I do too), get the best card your BD will allow. The X1800 XT will run circles around the X850 and look 10 times better with the new Avivo technology. Some of those are only $230, even if its an OEM version, I think all would agree the extra $100 would be well worth it.

Hope this helps.
July 18, 2006 8:26:58 AM

Ok thanks for that, cleared alot up. Im really gonna have to cut back on some items if im wanting to go with some of your suggestions. The reason I chose that case we because i've always wanted it. I have an aluminum right now so I was gonna go with something different. Thank you for pointing out the old chipset on that mobo, I didn't notice it. Yea I am in need of alot of HDD space. The RAM was a suggestion, so yea im gonna check the manufactors site for the best RAM. I am having trouble finding a good cheap modulated power supply. I really wanted a modulated and that one look cool and seemed cool for the price...is it really that bad? Also, is the extra $100 for the GPU really worth it, because if it is I will get the X1800XT.

Also, is there that much of a speed difference that I should get a mobo with a 975X over the 965?
July 18, 2006 8:47:46 AM

Ok I completely re-did my setup and dropped everything else besides components. Here is what im looking at now.

MOBO: ABIT AW8D Socket T (LGA 775) Intel 975X ATX Intel Motherboard $174.99

GPU: SAPPHIRE 100154SR Radeon X1800XT 256MB GDDR3 PCI Express x16 Video Card $30.00 Mail-in Rebate $259.99

RAM: CORSAIR XMS2 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) $40.00 Mail-in Rebate $198.00

HDD: Seagate Barracuda 7200.10 ST3320620AS (Perpendicular Recording Technology) 320GB 7200 RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive

So that came out to about $720 plus $70 worth of rebates so about $650. The CPU is gonna be free so im not gonna worry about that. So that is about $30 for shipping so that means I got roughly $50 to spend on a good PSU :( 

Also, the main reason I didn't want to get the X1800 XT is because I didn't want to spend that much money on a card when its gonna get outdated soon because the new DX10 is coming out.

Also, what is better, the X1800 XT or the 7900 GT?
July 18, 2006 9:10:32 AM

Suggest you read a few other threads:

DX10 -
http://forumz.tomshardware.com/hardware/x1900xt-Wait-DX...
In the end, DX10 may be out before the end of the year, but nothing will use it until Vista really hits. How much increase will it give? No one knows, but are you willing to accept mediocre gaming until then?

On another forum, the overall feeling for X1800 vs. 7900GT came down to what games you play. Generally, most agreed the ATI was preferred for MMOs and Nvidia for FPS (first person shooters). Since you play both, I would suggest the GT for a slightly better fps rating.

On the mobo, wait for the Abit to hit a sale/rebate or until the Gigabyte one gets restocked. That should free up another $20-30 to put to a PSU.

My current rig I plan to build - My Intel 775 Rig
There are probably a lot of things on it you could do cheaper, such as using stock heatsinks, etc.
July 18, 2006 6:22:36 PM

I think im gonna wait for the Abit to drop in price because:

A.) I like Abit and there features.
B.) Its a 975X were as the Gigabyte is a 965 and im looking for the best right now.

I can always scrap up the extra $20 I need. Also....

EDIT: Ok I just read a post by Paulhd and I realized he plays alot of the games I do. So, I think im gonna grab the X1800 XT because I just looked at the benchmarks.
July 18, 2006 8:53:32 PM

Quote:
Ok I completely re-did my setup and dropped everything else besides components. Here is what im looking at now.

MOBO: ABIT AW8D Socket T (LGA 775) Intel 975X ATX Intel Motherboard $174.99

GPU: SAPPHIRE 100154SR Radeon X1800XT 256MB GDDR3 PCI Express x16 Video Card $30.00 Mail-in Rebate $259.99

RAM: CORSAIR XMS2 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) $40.00 Mail-in Rebate $198.00

HDD: Seagate Barracuda 7200.10 ST3320620AS (Perpendicular Recording Technology) 320GB 7200 RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive

So that came out to about $720 plus $70 worth of rebates so about $650. The CPU is gonna be free so im not gonna worry about that. So that is about $30 for shipping so that means I got roughly $50 to spend on a good PSU :( 

Also, the main reason I didn't want to get the X1800 XT is because I didn't want to spend that much money on a card when its gonna get outdated soon because the new DX10 is coming out.

Also, what is better, the X1800 XT or the 7900 GT?


I hope your not getting a Conroe CPU for that board. It will not run it. Here's a URL from the ABit Forum:

Will AW8D support Conroe?

This is the board they say will run it:

Abit AB9 - 147.99

That should save you $27 bucks more for a better PSU.
July 19, 2006 2:23:25 AM

The reason I didn't want that board was because its only 965, I wanted a 975 or whatever the newest is. Does anyone know a board that has that for around $170. If not I might just get that one and put it towards the PSU like Grimmy said.
July 19, 2006 6:47:38 AM

Thanks for the tip on the ABIT boards, think I may go that route.
!