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buy now or wait for DX10/Vista certified Power Supplies

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July 21, 2006 9:55:11 PM

the new top story on TomsHardware.com named "The Graphics State of Union" got me thinking, I mean DAAAAMN !! 1000watt PSU's.. .holy crap... so as the topic hints... right now I have an aging case with a 400watt power supply, but I am just about to upgrade to an E6600 Core 2 Duo with OCZ 2GB of PC5400 DDR2-667 ram, 1 Seagate SATA2 320GB HardDrive, and 1 Sony DVD drive... and NO VIDEO CARD..(waiting for the new line of DX10 capable Vid Cards, will buy then) thats why I figure a 400 watt PS should be enough, cuz I wont be using a high power Graphics Card and the Conroes draw less power than earlier CPU's...
ok so my question is... should I blow a load of money on a new case and PS (take a look here, I have my eye on this) Aluminum ATX case 550watt PS
this would cost me around $160CAD after rebate taxes and shipping..
or should I be smart about it and wait, because I do fully understand that the new wave of DX10 graphic cards which are just around the corner will have larger power requirements so will therefore need a helluva lot more power and stability, that the current power supplies on the market will not be able to offer... I remember reading an article on toms hardware i cant find it now, but in any case it stated that currently most of the Power Supply manufacturers are hard at work trying to deliver the next generation of power supply units to the market which will be fully compliant with the new wave of products hitting the market soon, so common sense tells you it all mostly begins with Windows Vista, with the new Aero interface (which looks nice by the way, but hey so does the Apple iMac interface and its not nearly as power hungry as Windows Vista will be) in any case Windows Vista equals, the need for an expensive graphic card, which in turn requires a really good power supply... so after you blow your money on Windows Vista Ultimate, u still gotta blow around $500 on the GPU and PS to be able to run the Operating System the way its supposed to be run... I will never understand the Computer world, I mean... car manufacturers don't sell you a million dollar supercar capable of 200mph and tell you 'oh by the way the engine has been detuned the car is only capable of 100mph, so you're gonna have to buy a few extra parts and spend a little more money !!to have it run the way its meant to be run!!"
July 21, 2006 10:10:22 PM

If you can wait then do so, I don't believe in upgrading something when I can, just when I have to. Of course I only apply this to core components not to peripherals like mice and keyboards.
July 21, 2006 10:19:16 PM

Vista Aero runs fine on my ATI x800.... I don't see any problems and my PC is about 3 years old. The problem is that games need more video power, not windows.

That being said I would hold off on the power supply if its not needed why buy it now guessing at what the reqs for DX10 cards will be?
Related resources
July 21, 2006 10:59:21 PM

if ur gonna buy a PSU now to have it sit there then no. but if ur planning on building now then get a PSU. PSU's will be the same in 1 month. there will be new ATX v5.09 plug
July 22, 2006 1:28:47 AM

I would not buy any component that required a 1000watt PSU! Just like Conroe is using less power, so will future GPUs. Eventually they will start reducing heat generation like Intel did.

You picked a good rig. I too am getting the Ultra X2 PSU, though with a larger case. I am putting together a similar system with Core 2 Duo E6600. I will be running 6 hard drives, but with a mid-level GPU.
July 22, 2006 1:38:29 AM

Quote:
I would not buy any component that required a 1000watt PSU! Just like Conroe is using less power, so will future GPUs. Eventually they will start reducing heat generation like Intel did.

You picked a good rig. I too am getting the Ultra X2 PSU, though with a larger case. I am putting together a similar system with Core 2 Duo E6600. I will be running 6 hard drives, but with a mid-level GPU.



not next generation GPU. they will use more power there for giving off more heat.
July 22, 2006 1:53:07 AM

you think they will? the 7600s dont need a power connect.
and they are as good or better than the 6800s
July 22, 2006 3:31:23 AM

i know they will. but something like a 8600 series shouldnt. the higher end like 8800's will.
July 22, 2006 4:11:10 AM

nvidia uses less transistors which means less vlts and heat
in their 76 and 79 series plus the lower <90nm> processing
as well as everyone else.

my question is will dx10 and vista require the gpu makers
to have to go <back so to speak> to more power to be able to
run the next gen of gaming software?

and then after dx10 is out and all the bugs are being
worked out. and they see how everything works after
the end user has experienced and complianed about
this and that will they <ati and nvidia> beable to drop
power comsuption, transistors and such?

do you get the idea or what i am trying to say.

or will they be able to lower the nm process
and power consumption?

example
the new nvidia 8800 or what ever series this fall
or when ever the new dx10 cards come out

will it be 65nm or still 90 and if so will the 65nm need extra power
becuase of the next gen graphics
a c 158 ) Power supply
July 22, 2006 4:54:56 AM

Quote:
the 7600s dont need a power connect. and they are as good or better than the 6800s

Don't forget that the 6800's were on an AGP bus - one of the major reasons for the shift to PCIe was its ability to provide more power for graphics cards.
July 22, 2006 5:22:56 AM

65nm use less power.

it;ll be 65nm but it'll require lots of power still.

look, we dont have a lot of info on this topic. the vid card compaines didnt relase much info.
a b ) Power supply
July 22, 2006 1:58:34 PM

Quote:
65nm use less power.

it;ll be 65nm but it'll require lots of power still.

look, we dont have a lot of info on this topic. the vid card compaines didnt relase much info.


Yep, all this is pure speculation for now. The only real thing I've read from Anandtech.com was that the next generation of video cards will be consuming between 130w - 300w. That doesn't necessarily mean that a budget card will consume 130w of power.
July 22, 2006 2:34:11 PM

Quote:
ok so my question is... should I blow a load of money on a new case and PS (take a look here, I have my eye on this) Aluminum ATX case 550watt PS
this would cost me around $160CAD after rebate taxes and shipping..


I would not recommend that PS. I've read two reviews of it that were thumbs down in summary. For a new build with a DX10 gpu, I recommend a solid PS. I assume there will be SLI-like solutions in DX-10 so you might want to think ahead and decide it you will do a single or dual card setup. Dual DX-10 cards will need a large, high current PS. If you go with a single DX-10 card, you'll still need plenty of PS beef. I'd think that a 500 watt unit will not be overkill for a DX10 machine, and if you OC, I'd go beyond that. A multi-12V rail unit providing 35 to 40 A of +12 is probably a starting point. Waiting to find out the requirements of the card you plan to buy is the safest approach.
July 22, 2006 3:28:12 PM

Quote:
ok so my question is... should I blow a load of money on a new case and PS (take a look here, I have my eye on this) Aluminum ATX case 550watt PS
this would cost me around $160CAD after rebate taxes and shipping..


I would not recommend that PS. I've read two reviews of it that were thumbs down in summary. For a new build with a DX10 gpu, I recommend a solid PS. I assume there will be SLI-like solutions in DX-10 so you might want to think ahead and decide it you will do a single or dual card setup. Dual DX-10 cards will need a large, high current PS. If you go with a single DX-10 card, you'll still need plenty of PS beef. I'd think that a 500 watt unit will not be overkill for a DX10 machine, and if you OC, I'd go beyond that. A multi-12V rail unit providing 35 to 40 A of +12 is probably a starting point. Waiting to find out the requirements of the card you plan to buy is the safest approach.

heh, i didnt even read that...where did u find that cluelesS??..oh yeah that huge first post.

anyways. as clueless stated. Ultra makes cheap unreliable PSU's. Go with a brand name, Antec, Fortron, Seasonic.
July 22, 2006 3:31:25 PM

"Vista certified Power Supplies" :lol: 
July 22, 2006 6:25:09 PM

Quote:
"Vista certified Power Supplies" :lol: 



you know what I meant by that dude...... the next GEN power supplies since they dont really have a label I used Vista... the GPU's, the Motherboards all of those got these clever little 'Vista Capable' stickers stamped on they boxes n all that stuff....

hey Clue69Less... ok good advice, I'm a single Video Card type user, no SLI for me... and I admit I read a bad review on that power supply as well... it performed bottom of the barrell.... but one thing I really like about it is the cables... have u seen them?? and I quote "Ultra chose an ingenious alternative to cable sleeves: Flat ribbon-style UV-reactive power cables are extremely flexible, easy to route, and look great through clear plastic insulation" so no these arent your typical sleeved cables, these are a little extra.... do you know any other power supplies which feature this type of cable design ??? heres the link to the review on the Ultra PS.. and this page shows you the cables up close Ultra X2 550watt

thanks for all your advice guys, I think this is a question that bothers a lotta people actually das why I brought it up... everyones runnin around like chickens wit they heads cut off, not knowin whether to buy now, or in a bit since all these new products are coming out....
July 22, 2006 9:01:01 PM

I agree with Adon. I evaluated 12 brands of modular power supplies and found the Ultra X2 to have the best design. Can I find one with more power? Sure. Can I find one with higher efficiency? Sure. Will I notice the difference? No. Will I notice a difference in the design? Yes!

If I was going to go SLI I might choose a different PSU, but I will always go with a single $250-$300 graphics card.
July 22, 2006 9:21:07 PM

Quote:
I agree with Adon. I evaluated 12 brands of modular power supplies and found the Ultra X2 to have the best design. Can I find one with more power? Sure. Can I find one with higher efficiency? Sure. Will I notice the difference? No. Will I notice a difference in the design? Yes!

If I was going to go SLI I might choose a different PSU, but I will always go with a single $250-$300 graphics card.


While ur at it ask ur self this and then tell me if u'd still get the ultra.

"Will the Ultra X2 blow in 4 months and fry ALL my hardware? Sure."
July 22, 2006 9:38:38 PM

Quote:


While ur at it ask ur self this and then tell me if u'd still get the ultra.

"Will the Ultra X2 blow in 4 months and fry ALL my hardware? Sure."


I read a lot of user reviews on those 12 brands and some of the NAME brands had multiple complaints about frying motherboards! The Ultra X2 did not. It also has a lifetime warranty. I have followed some "problem" threads on their forum and the response and service seem good. Really, if you don't do SLI there is no reason not to get it.

I just realised I have not responded to the topic of this thread yet, so here goes. Sure, the DX10 chipset will be out in September. The cards will follow a bit later. The debugged cards/drivers won't be out for at least 6 months to a year. I wouldn't wait. GPU manufacturers tend to be too quick to market with new stuff to get ahead of their competition and as a result, there are often major problems with new technology releases. Current technology is adequate and not worth being a beta tester to get the latest. However I only play one game. I mostly do video editing and need a very stable GPU. Those who spend many hours a day gaming may find it worth being on the bleeding edge, but you will bleed.
July 22, 2006 10:28:32 PM

Ultra is made by tiger direct. Tiger direct gets no where near Antec, Fortron, OCZ..etc. quality. I dunno which "brands" you tested.
July 22, 2006 10:52:40 PM

Design, dude. DESIGN. Yes, there are better quality PSUs. However, I do not need better quality. I need better design. The Ultra X2 gives it to me. I'm happy. Adon is happy. You're happy with your bettey quality PSU. Everyone's happy. No point in arguing about it. The real question is does he get a PSU now (whether better design or better quality) or does he wait until DX10 is out in the market?
July 22, 2006 11:55:24 PM

Quote:
you know what I meant by that dude...... the next GEN power supplies since they dont really have a label I used Vista... the GPU's, the Motherboards all of those got these clever little 'Vista Capable' stickers stamped on they boxes n all that stuff....
Too many people are worried about the G80 and R600 when a current power supply that supports SLI or Crossfire should be more than enough for the GPUs of tomorrow.
July 23, 2006 12:07:50 AM

Quote:
I read a lot of user reviews on those 12 brands and some of the NAME brands had multiple complaints about frying motherboards! The Ultra X2 did not. It also has a lifetime warranty. I have followed some "problem" threads on their forum and the response and service seem good. Really, if you don't do SLI there is no reason not to get it.


Check out this review of the Ultra X-Finity 600. Jonnyguru knows power supplies and if you doubt that, just spend some time on his site, see how he tests and equally important, look at how many units he's tested. When you rely on user reviews, you're taking advice from unknown sources. Some may be extremely competent reviewers, some may be newbies reviewing the one and only device they have ever bought. They may plug it in, see it work and have shiny lights and immediately give it 5 of 5 stars. When you read a review on Toms, Anandtech, Johnnyguru, etc., you're reading the words of a professional reviewer. For example, look at Jonny's temperature control chamber and read why he does that test. Another thing - non SLI rigs can be VERY demanding on a PS. SLI or not-SLI is not an adequate decision point.
July 23, 2006 12:19:59 AM

You do make good points. Note though that reviewers often get their review product directly from the manufacturer. These products are often "cherry picked". Also, most reviewers test only one cherry-picked unit whereas user reviews give access to real-world use of multiple retail boxed units. I'm not saying one is better than the other, just that they are different and both should be considered. The X-Finity is a different unit from the X2. Different models of PSUs from the same manufacturer vary wildly.
July 23, 2006 12:32:44 AM

Quote:
You do make good points. Note though that reviewers often get their review product directly from the manufacturer. These products are often "cherry picked".


I can point you at numerous reviewers that get their test gear anonimously for this very reason. I've spent two days in the last month with a guy doing RAM reviews. He got four pairs of 1GB DDR2 Corsair sticks - one pair each through four different sources. Jonnyguru may not go through four units to do his PS tests but the guy is an intensely serious tech with wood for PS reviewing. I'll trust him over Newegg or other such reviews any day. But you are free to do as you wish - and good luck! I've used low quality power supplies and have been burned (so have my mobos, CPUs and GPUs). Lessons learned the hard, painful, expensive way. I no longer buy inexpensive power supplies.
July 23, 2006 1:13:53 AM

Quote:
You do make good points. Note though that reviewers often get their review product directly from the manufacturer. These products are often "cherry picked". Also, most reviewers test only one cherry-picked unit whereas user reviews give access to real-world use of multiple retail boxed units. I'm not saying one is better than the other, just that they are different and both should be considered. The X-Finity is a different unit from the X2. Different models of PSUs from the same manufacturer vary wildly.


no they dont.

I get product samples from companies. my Thermaltake Minityphoon was retail.

The Antec product im getting next is also retail. They aren't "cherry picked"
July 23, 2006 1:40:24 AM

Quote:
Jonnyguru may not go through four units to do his PS tests but the guy is an intensely serious tech with wood for PS reviewing. I'll trust him over Newegg or other such reviews any day...Lessons learned the hard, painful, expensive way. I no longer buy inexpensive power supplies.


I agree. I have 6 power supplies currently. Three of them work, the other three are in the disposal pile for my next trip to the hazardous disposal place (I don't throw lead products in the trash if I can avoid it). The three that work are from Zalman, Antec, and Ultra (the original X-connect). The three dead ones are from Enermax, Seasonic, and Bestec. The Bestec is the only no-name of the bunch. The Seasonic, mentioned as a good brand earlier in this thread, I am reasonably certain fried a friend's motherboard. Reviewers tell me important stuff - like that I should think of the Ultra X2 as a 450 rather than a 550 supply. No reviewer has dissed the Ultra X2 as a failure, just as underpowered when compared to its rating. Nor have consumers noted a high failure rate. Consumers have, however, noted a high failure rate for the Enermax, something I wouldn't know from a pro review. Both types of reviews are needed - neither should be excluded from research, nor should either type be taken as gospel. I generally want both types of reviews to be acceptable before I will buy something. Now, back to DX10...
July 23, 2006 2:31:07 AM

Quote:
...Jonnyguru may not go through four units to do his PS tests but the guy is an intensely serious tech with wood for PS reviewing...


By the way, thanks for turning me on to Jonny Guru. I've been looking at other stuff on the site. He did review the Ultra X2 and gave it 8 out of 10 overall. Basically same as other reviewers - a good 450 watt PSU, don't do SLI with high-end cards. Fine by me. I especially like his "mishap" photos and captions, like this one:

http://www.jonnyguru.com/mishaps/damagedBoards/pages/VI...

-Mike
July 23, 2006 3:08:08 AM

Anyways. the price for the Ultra X connect ..holy crap 130 dollars????

anyways for that price or even if it was lower an Antec Smartpower, Truepower, or NeoHE series would be a better choice.

Even the quad rail'ed fortron 550w PSU.
July 23, 2006 3:32:44 AM

Street price is $90-$100. You are correct FOR YOU, but not FOR ME. Yes, for PERFORMANCE there are "better" PSUs, if you need better performance, which I do not. I need better DESIGN. I am not an SLI, watercooling, or even overclocking kind of guy. To each his own.
July 23, 2006 4:30:51 AM

Quote:
Street price is $90-$100. You are correct FOR YOU, but not FOR ME. Yes, for PERFORMANCE there are "better" PSUs, if you need better performance, which I do not. I need better DESIGN. I am not an SLI, watercooling, or even overclocking kind of guy. To each his own.


Do you mean "aesthetics"? Design encompasses more than just the surface visuals. Quality is a direct result of design coupled with manufacturing practices, etc.
July 23, 2006 4:54:34 AM

Quote:
the new top story on TomsHardware.com named "The Graphics State of Union" got me thinking, I mean DAAAAMN !! 1000watt PSU's.. .holy crap...


I personally think the entire article is complete and utter bullsh*t.

I realize that my lowly x800XL uses less power than new high end PSUs, but does 2 top of the line video cards use 600 watts? I can run my rig at 1600x1200 (in a window so I can monitor the power draw in the UPS s/w) and I'm generally using no more than 210 watts. I'm doing a moderate overclock of 25% on teh CPU...nothing on the GPU. That's around 50-60 watts what is drawn from the desktop.

Am I to believe that 2 7900gtx (or whatever the outrageously overpriced flavor of the month is) draws and additional 150 watts on each card?

Given that people swore to me a year ago that my humble rig demanded (DEMANDED I TELL YOU) at least 500 watts (and that's when I was looking at a 6600gt), I take power requirements from enthusiasts with a grain of salt.

Want some solid info? Go to silentpreview.com, where they actually seem to know what they're talking about.
July 23, 2006 5:42:54 AM

no comment to the post above me.


as far as martians post. I dont understand.....you would go for aesthetics over preformance....i'd take a freakin barbie PC case if it has the best ventilation in the world.
July 23, 2006 6:08:52 AM

Quote:
no comment to the post above me.
I dont understand.....you would go for aesthetics over preformance....i'd take a freakin barbie PC case if it has the best ventilation in the world.


I would not be caught dead with a Barbie PC case if it was the best in the world. Different folks have different priorities. For example, I drive a PT Cruiser. You can get better performing and lower maintenance cars for the same money, but for me you can't beat the styling. There is also a practical side to the styling, thus I do not own a two-seater like the Prowler even though they are cool. For PSUs, this practical side is what attracts me to the Ultra X2. I could care less about the titanium finish (would prefer black), but I will never buy a non-modular power supply again. I HATE all those extra cables getting in the way. I thought years ago "why don't they make these detachable?" Another thing I like about the Ultra X2 over almost all other modular PSUs is they use a custom socket block that is flush mounted, rather than having molex connectors protruding from the back of the PSU. I also like the Flexconnects alot. They also listen to customers and have made additional cables available for special needs, like upside-down cases. It really is a great design. For me. :) 
July 23, 2006 6:18:33 AM

wow...a PT Cruiser...those things have like 180 HP and get like 15 MPG...generally means its a shitty engine. BUT if u like the car then go for it. Im much more of a sleek styling person. Acura TSX, Infinity G35.

Oh well. No point in arguing. U will like the X2's.

To each his own.
July 23, 2006 1:51:31 PM

Quote:
I would not be caught dead with a Barbie PC case if it was the best in the world.


Holding out for the "Ken does Conroe" case?
!