Will I have to get new power supply for X-Fire?

[redraider_gamer]

Have 600 watt SLI Certified Ultra PS, want to get conroe and ATI X fire, will the PS work or do I need a new one?

Yeah, I'm a newb on this stuff. Go ahead and let me have it, but give me a good answer too...

Thanks

 

[waylander]

It should be fine but how do we know unless you tell us all of your components, for instance: the x1900xtx pulls about twice the power of the x800xl and an overclocked D805 can pull up to 180w by itself.

Full list of every single item that gets power from the psu, also the brand of the psu.

 

[Slava]

The wattage of the PSU depends on what else you have in your PC. The more components you have - the more power you need. Some full tower cases have up to 10 (ten) 5.25" expansion bays. You could have, I don't know, 5 hard drives, 3 optical drives, other drives, backup unit, up to 5-6 expansion cards, 4-5 fans an enthusiast CPU cooler, whatever. You could have dual CPUs and what not....

Regardless of that, I would suggest that you sell your 600Wt on ebay or craig's list or something and get yourself a 1000Wt. The way things are changing, power requirements are likely to continue to grow. With a big power supply you will be set for a long time; and should the need arise to add a couple of new hard drives or expansion cards or more case fans or whatever, you will not have to worry about power. Here's what I mean:

Most people upgrade their machines from time to time. However, some things stay the same for a long, long time. If you have a good PC case, for example, and it looks good enough for you, chances are you will not replace it for many years even if you replace everything inside it. I have had my Acer Open server tower for over six years now. The same is true about power supplies and (to a lesser extent) motherboards.

All other things, such as memory, CPUs, video cards, optical drives, etc., may come and go but the foundation remains.

That said, with a 1000 Wt PSU you can power everything and have power to spare. For example, should you decide to add another video card for physics to your SLI - no problem.

IMPORTANT NOTES:

1. PSUs never output the rated amount of power. Their efficiency is usually around 70-80%. This means that your 600Wt is effectively something like 420-480Wt

2. Once I installed my 550Wt PSU my monthly electric bill went up by approximately US$45. Imagine how much it would cost you to operate a 1000 Wt if your PC is on a lot.

3. I have a lot of stuff in my PC. I mean, my server case is fully packed to the point that there is almost no empty space inside it (and it is a huge case). I use a single card now. I would get a more powerful PSU if I went SLI or X-Fire myself.

 

[jaguarskx]

Ultra PSUs kinda sucks in my opinion. While a 600w PSU from a good brandname should be fine for X-Fire, I have my doubts with Ultra. The X1900XT uses around 122w of power. I've been told that the Crossfire Master Card consumes 20w more, or 142w. Thats a total of 264w just for the GPUs if both of them were running at 100% load.

I haven't seen any power measurements of just the Conroe E6600 yet. Total system power; yes, I have seen them. The CPU by itself; no not yet. Based on what I've seen and read, I would guess that a none overclocked E6600 will consume about 74w of power. That brings your total power consumption to 338w at full load.

Here's an estimate of total system power consumption on the 12v rail based on a hypethetical PC:

Conroe E6600.............................74w
X1900XT...................................122w
X1900XT Master Card................142w
Typical Motherboard....................20w
Typical 300MB hard drive.............25w
DVD-Burner................................18w
2.0GB RAM...................................0w (draws power from 3.3v rail)
Typcial sound card.......................10w

Total Est Power Consumption.......411w (100% load)

This would be the worse case scenario. This is also impossible situation, there aren't even any benchmark programs or "burn in" programs that will force every single component to work at 100% at the same time. I would estimate that the typical power consumption will be around 370w during gameplay, but that's just a guess.

411w of power on the 12v rails means that the PSU for this PC must provide at least 34 amps (451 / 12 = 34). I think this amount of load will kill your Ultra and you'll risk loosing other components as well.

I would recommend the following PSUs:

Seasonic S12 600 - 600w PSU - $160

ENERMAX All in One Noisetaker Series EG701AX-VE SFMA - $130

FSP Group (Fortron Source) FX600-GLN - $140

OCZ GameXStream OCZ600GXSSLI - $150

However, getting any one of these PSU means the hypethetical PC is already maxing out the power supply. That means if you want to overclock your Conroe E6600 or add any other component, then you really need to consider getting a more powerful PSU like the following:

SILVERSTONE ZEUS SST-ST65ZF ATX12V 650W - $169

OCZ GameXStream OCZ700GXSSLI ATX12V 700W - $140 after rebate

FSP Group (Fortron Source) FX700-GLN ATX12V/ EPS12V 700W - $181

SILVERSTONE SST-ST75ZF ATX 12V 2.2 & EPS 12V 750W - $222

 

[Slava]

That means if you want to overclock your Conroe E6600 or add any other component, then you really need to consider getting a more powerful PSU like the following:

SILVERSTONE ZEUS SST-ST65ZF ATX12V 650W - $169

OCZ GameXStream OCZ700GXSSLI ATX12V 700W - $140 after rebate

FSP Group (Fortron Source) FX700-GLN ATX12V/ EPS12V 700W - $181

SILVERSTONE SST-ST75ZF ATX 12V 2.2 & EPS 12V 750W - $222

Yeah. I would say these days with future upgrade needs in mind a 750Wt is a minimum unless he is okay with replacing his PSUs every 12-18 months or so...

 

[jaguarskx]

IMPORTANT NOTES:

1. PSUs never output the rated amount of power. Their efficiency is usually around 70-80%. This means that your 600Wt is effectively something like 420-480Wt

No, the efficency rating means how much power the PSU will be drawing from the AC outlet while delivering the power required by the PC. The lower the efficiency, the greater the power draw. For example, Your PC needs 400w of power:

A 70% efficient 600w PSU will deliver 400w of power but will draw 571.4w from the AC outlet (400 / 70%).

An 80% efficient 600w PSU will deliver 400w of power but will draw 500w from the AC outlet (400 / 80%).

The most efficient PSUs are 85% efficient. So if you have a Seasonic S12 600 600w PSU powering a system needing 400w of power, then the Seasonic will draw 471w from the AC outlet (400 / 85%).

 

[waylander]

IMPORTANT NOTES:

1. PSUs never output the rated amount of power. Their efficiency is usually around 70-80%. This means that your 600Wt is effectively something like 420-480Wt

2. Once I installed my 550Wt PSU my monthly electric bill went up by approximately US$45. Imagine how much it would cost you to operate a 1000 Wt if your PC is on a lot.

3. I have a lot of stuff in my PC. I mean, my server case is fully packed to the point that there is almost no empty space inside it (and it is a huge case). I use a single card now. I would get a more powerful PSU if I went SLI or X-Fire myself.

Are you an idiot? Don't give false information as this information is wrong. The efficiency rating has nothing to do with how much power your psu puts out in DC current but how much power it takes to get that DC current.

If the psu is rated for 500w at 85% efficiency then that means it takes 588w from the wall socket, in simple math 588 x .85 = 500. Christ do your homework before giving false information.

edit: damnit jaguar you beat me to calling this guy an idiot, you were nicer about it though.

 

[phreejak]

I like all those PSU suggestions. However, the FSP PSUs only have 15 amps across their rails and that is kinda weak for todays highest end GPUs and will suffer from the draw of the forthcoming G80 and 600 GPUs

 

[redraider_gamer]

This is all really good info. I think I'll sell the 600w and get a 1000w. Thanks for the advice.

System will be:
Conroe E6600 or x6800 - hard time with $1k for a chip, but...
Motherboard is still a question - any advice?
X1900XT (x2)
WD Raptor 74GB (x2)
2 GB Ram (OCZ667)
SoundBlaster of some sort -not high end -have 5.1 speakers
NEC OEM DVD Burners (x2)
GigaByte 3D Aurora Case
Stock Cooling to start - any suggestions on that?

Sorry for the newb writing, I've built many computers, but usually in the $750 range. Nothing like the toy I'm building now.

Thanks for all the help.

 

[phreejak]

if cooling becomes a problem you should research watercooling. It's the next logical step for a rig as powerful as yours will be.

If you are going to get a 1000 watt system consider the Enermax Galaxy. It is modular and is available in 1000 watt and 1100 watt configurations. The 1000 watt you can get for around $320 - $360. It also is the only PSU I know of that has 5 12v rails with a high amperage across them. However, I have a larger energy demand on my PSU than your system will and I use the Silverstone 750 and it performs quite excellently.

 

[Slava]

Are you an idiot? Don't give false information

I rarely see rude a$$holes here, such as you. But your attitude deserves to be entertained. So UP YOURS.

Now, while there is a term PSU Efficiency Rating which means what you described, there is also something called Peak Output and Sustained Output. I was not talking about the Efficiency Rating. I was talking about how efficent PSUs are in terms of actually delivering the rated amount of power.

Far from all PSUs rated XXXWt have a Sustained Output of XXXWt.

What I meant is that if his current PSU is rated at 600Wt it is more likely than not that it actually outputs LESS than that.

Even reputable manufacturers, on occasion, advertise their PSUs at their peak output figures while real output under sustained load may be as low as half of the peak output. So care should be taken when buying a PSU. What is said on the front of the box is pretty meaningless. He needs to read the fine print on the back of the box and see what the sustained output rating is. If it is not listed it is safe to divide the advertised output rating by two.

 

[phreejak]

In accordance with what you are saying.

Not all manufacturers are completely open as to how they rate their PSUs either. By that I mean, take the company XG. They have a product called the XG duro 900 which was advertised as having an output of 900 watts. However, what they failed to reveal, initially, and what they were exposed for, was that the 900 watt peak they measured was done so at 25 degrees C. The actually output of the Duro was only 750 watts at 50 degrees C. Most manufacturers rate their output at between 50 - 55 degrees C. Of course the colder a PSU is the better it performs.

Like Slava said, it would be prudent to read the fine print carefully.

 

[Slava]

what they failed to reveal, initially, and what they were exposed for, was that the 900 watt peak they measured was done so at 25 degrees C. The actually output of the Duro was only 750 watts at 50 degrees C.

Exactly. I did not want to get into more details such as operating temps(thanks Phreejak for mentioning this). So even if he gets a good quality 1000Wt-rated PSU whose sustained output is something like 850Wt under "normal" operating temps but it is summer and his case is not cool enough he could get even less. Good read here

 

[Gary_Busey]

He does not need a 1000w PSU.

 

[Eviltwin17]

im pretty sure that is plenty to use crossfire.

 

[clue69less]

This is all really good info. I think I'll sell the 600w and get a 1000w.

1KW is overkill but if that's the way you want to go, get a PCP&C. I no longer trust Enermax and I've heard a few professional reviewers also walk away from them as a test bench PS. I'm running OC'ed XFired 1900XTs and OC'ed Opty 170 on a mushkin 650 watt PS with no problems. The mushkin has four 20A 12V rails and if one rail needs more current supply, the PS borrows from another less loaded (hic!) rail to get the current. Newegg is offering a $40 MIR through the end of the month. I also ran the same rig with an OCZ GE700 with no problems.

 

[Doughbuy]

Well, since I don't want to get in on the PSU debate since it seems pretty fierce, I'll answer the other questions.

For the mobo, I would recommend this:

http://www.anandtech.com/mb/showdoc.aspx?i=2797

Anandtech's summary of all the parts available right now for the new Conroe. Read through it and choose a mobo that you like. If your too lazy to read, basically get the ASUS P5W-DH Deluxe. It'll basically do whatever you need or want it to do, especially crossfire. About the memory, I would suggest getting corsair because I hear of problems between OCZ and Asus, but that could be wrong. Try this

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16820145590

If you get a good mobo, no need for an audio card, on-board sound is more than enough, since that mobo is already top of the line. I have no real preference on cases, but any reason for 2 DVD burners? Anyways, I'm just nitpicking now.

Cooling... watercooling or not? Either way, with 2 X1900XT's your gonna generate a $HIT-TON of heat. I know Thermaltake has a dual GPU enclosed watercooling solution you can use for your two graphics card, it had some decent reviews. TT Tidewater, you can look into it yourself. Either way, your choice between watercooling or air cooling. I'm going water myself as an added challenge, but if you don't plan on OC'ing, decent air cooling is more than enough. Ball's in your court.

 

[angry_ducky]

im pretty sure that is plenty to use crossfire.

600W is enough, but there's not enough amps on the 12V rail(s) to power those two video cards.

 

[jaguarskx]

Now, while there is a term PSU Efficiency Rating which means what you described, there is also something called Peak Output and Sustained Output. I was not talking about the Efficiency Rating. I was talking about how efficent PSUs are in terms of actually delivering the rated amount of power.

Okay. But in the future you should specifically state Peak Output and Sustained Output in the future, rather than simply stating "Efficiency".

Seasonic S12 PSUs are my preferred recommendation and my choice PSU since they are rated at their sustained output. The S12 series is also very quiet and efficient to at least 80% efficient. They have been rated as high as 85%+ since not every hardware review site uses the same testing environment. Therefore, more stringent sites will say that the Seasonic S12 is only 80%+ efficient.

The bad thing is that Seasonic is a bit more expensive than your average PSU. Then again Seasonic is a premium brand with a history and more importantly, good hardware reviews (user reviews don't count).

 

[Slava]

..... in the future you should specifically state Peak Output and Sustained Output in the future, rather than simply stating "Efficiency".

Okay. I agree I could have been more terminologically correct. However, the point I made was correct. And the point was that one does need to be getting at least 600-700Wt of real power to run X-Fire or SLI on a well-packed box. Dual cards could run for some time on an underpowered box. But it is a recipe for disaster down the road.

I once took a chance and installed a Radeon 9800 PRO on my girlfriend's Dell with a 250Wt PSU while ATI (if memory serves) recommended a 300Wt PSU for that card. The 250 PSU was probably delivering less than 200 sustained - aka "Continuous" - output. Everything seemed fine. So I went further and overclocked the card slightly. Of course, after 7 months or so the card began to malfunction.

As for dual cards and amount of power PSU actually delivers, think about this:

Cards in X-Fire generate quite a bit of heat. The PSU itself generates quite a bit of heat, etc. Ambient temps that your sensors may report are not the same in every corner of the case even with decent fan setup. Air is rarely moved evenly around the entire case and hot air rises while cooler air stays low. If you are getting 50C around NB and your box is a tower with PSU at the top then ambient temps around PSU may be as high as 60-65C. Even if you have a high quality 600Wt PSU correctly rated at 600Wt sustained (at 50C) and peak, say at 720SWt, chances are you are getting about 500Wt under your normal PC operation. Load it with multiple tasks and voltages will begin to fluctuate putting components at risk.

Anyhow, I stick by my original reply to OP's question and recommend yet again that he get a very powerful PSU (900-1000Wt) to make sure that it need not be upgraded for years.

Your comments, Jaguar, are appreciated though.