*update* QUAD SLi 91.45 (was 91.37 probs)

[jtking]

I originally posted about the problems with the beta drivers and this is an update on the post below.

Falcon Northwest has maintained that the majority of my problems were driver related and it seems in some part they were right. The new 91.45 drivers eliminated the screen vibration and the blackline problems. But there are still complete system power-offs that seem power supply related. I have a call into Falcon NW to address these issues now that the release drivers have been published.

I have a final response from FNW. They identify the problems as being load-balancing issues due to overclocked CPU running on the same rail as both graphics cards. They are sending me an adapter to move one graphics card to the other rail (as all new systems currently ship) but at my insistence they will also swap out my power supply for the as-yet-unreleased modular silverstone 750watt in a couple months.

****************************** ******************************

Nvidia just released their beta drivers for my BFG 7950GX2's in order to implement Quad SLi. I am very excited about this as I am yearning to play Oblivion at maxed settings outdoors at 1920x1200. Unfortunately it is not a seamless introduction yet. When it works (so far *only* in Oblivion) it does give me over 50% more frame rate outside, sometimes closing in on double the frame rate. When it doesn't work, it is causing complete power-downs in the system or horrible screen vibration that does not go away until reboot.

The following information I posted to the Nvidia boards concerning the new quad sli driver:

System:
Falcon Northwest FX-62
Corsair PC6400C4 2Gb
BFG 7950GX2 x 2
ASUS MN32-SLi Deluxe (Nforce 590 rev 0404)
Silverstone SST-ST60F
Philips Brilliance 230WP7NS 23" LCD at 1920x1200 native

Problems:
Computer powers off
Black-line bisects screen in 3d mode
Screen vibrates rapidly up and down by several pixels

Games:
Eve Online (black line, vibration)
World of Warcraft (black line, vibration)
Civilization IV (black line, vibration)
Ghost Recon: Advanced Warfighter (black line, vibration, power-off)
Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion (power-off)

Details:
Once entering a 3d mode, the screen begins to vibrate up and down by several pixels, several times per second in GRAW, Civ IV, Eve Online and World of Warcraft. Once this has begun to occur, it will persist after leaving the games to the desktop. a reboot occurs. This happens every time one of these games is loaded. This did *not* happen in 800x600 mode in GRAW. I have not fully tested each scaling mode as my interest is strictly in running 1920x1200 native resolution.

In GRAW, WoW and Civ IV, sporadically a one or two pixel black horizontal line appears bisecting the screen about midway up. This line jumps around (up and down) traveling the center half of the screen, returning to the middle of the screen. This line is accompanied with the screen vibration as noted above. This line does not persist into windows desktop, however it does take a reboot to eliminate the screen vibration.

The machine has powerd off several times in the middle of play of both Eve Online and Oblivion. In both, when I installed these drivers over the old drivers, any attempt to start the game would shut down the computer as soon as a 3d screen was about to be drawn (the screen never drew). After removing all drivers and doing a clean install, eve no longer crashed but developed the vibration problem noted above.

Once reinstalled, Oblivion at the highest 1920x1200 settings except the following:
Self Shadows Off
Shadows on Grass Off
Tree distance one notch down
Anti-Aliasing 4x
Bloom Lighting On
HDR Off

At these settings the game was stable and frame rate improved by over 50%. No vibration noticed, no line artifacts noticed. However, when changing the remaining settings to max (Self and Grass Shadows on, Tree distance maxxed), the system powered down in less than 2 seconds.

The other game to power down was GRAW which also had all the black line and vibration symptoms as the other games. I ran it on all settings maxed, 1920x1200, 16xASF, and it ran for several seconds until it began to load a "video feed" at which time it powered off the system.


Anyone got any ideas?

JT

 

[waylander]

I hate to say it and I know that a lot of ppl will disagree with me on this but I think you don't have enough power.

I think that if you went to a 750w with quad 12v rails you will become stable....

Any comments on my comment?

 

[jtking]

You may very well be right. The SST-ST60F is on Nvidia's approved list of power supplies, but I confirmed with Falcon Northwest today that they have both cards on the same rail. FNW was somewhat reluctant to commit to that as the problem, as they are still doing in-house testing with their own machines and this new driver. They told me that they had similar vibration problems with previous SLi boards on Apple 30" monitors. If it is power, I can have them send me an adapter to take one card over to another rail, and that *should* solve it. There is certainly more than enough total power in the Silverstone for all components, its realyl jsut a matter of load balance at this point I think.

JT

 

[asdasd123123]

Yep, I'm definitely the last to suggest more Juice, but this is by almost full certainty, the problem right now for you.

You need.. 500W+ and a Very high quality psu, what you have now may be more/enough watts, but too bad quality.

I know FSP (Fortron Source) to be good, and Chieftec seem stable enough.

What you need is a PSU with two GPU-connectors I reckon..

Edit:

Oh, you got THOSE cards.. Sheesh, 750+ and you need those power bricks for each of the cards..

Are you running them with internal power atm?

 

[jtking]

asdasd,

The power supply I have is a very high quality 600 watt reviewed here:
http://www.techimo.com/articles/i275.html

and here:
http://www.pcmoddingmy.com/e107_plugins/content/content.php?content.322


It is Nvidia SLi certified and included in all the top-of-the-line Falcon Northwest Mach V's.

... not that it means it is delivering enough power, mind you!

But as I said above, I suspect that if there is a power problem it is likely a balance problem because both cards are on the same rail.

JT

 

[asdasd123123]

Given, but what you describe looks like uneven output.

Anyway, as I said, are you using the power bricks that come with the cards?

 

[jtking]

No power bricks with the cards,these came integrated into the system (Falcon Northwest Mach V) and they each have their own power cord plugged into the modular powersupply.

I'm pretty sure that only the 7900gx2's came with seperate power bricks?? In any case, there is certainly no allowance for an external power source. There are only a single 6-pin power recepticle on each card.

Ultimately this will end up being a Falcon Northwest problem as its their machine for the next 3 years, but Id liek to get an idea of where to start with them as soon as I talk to them again. They are setting up a system like mine tonight and testing over night so maybe there will be some feedback in the next day or two.

I'll keep posting here to appraise everyone of the progress.

JT

 

[asdasd123123]

It could very well be a faulty PSU, those things happen.
Honestly, from frying a few amplifiers in my days, I'd say a transistor has broken, and thus giving "choppy" or possible AC output to one card.

Tried using just one card, or are you not allowed to mess with the cables?

And the power brick part I was simply ill informed, that was for the 7800 series quad system (early small release)

 

[jtking]

Well... I am wrong too....

Turns out my power supply is SLi certified to be used with "all other" SLi configs, NOT the dual 7950gtx's...

There is a 750w silverstone power supply (my power supply's big briother) that is certified for 7950's.

I'm starting to believe that this truly is a power supply problem and that FNW will get a call from me tomorrow to replace mine with a bigger one. Certainly they have not put in an appropriate supply with this system as configured.

JT

 

[asdasd123123]

Aha, well would make sense then.
Assuming the 600w usually holds, you got a weak one then..
Tough luck, but good for you the "upgrade" will be free, hehe =)

 

[jtking]

Hehehe, thats true! Funny thing was that these graphics cards were a free upgrade too since they ran out of the dual 7900gtx's that I originalyl ordered (one of mine went out during QC burn in).

As to running jsut one card, thats what I have been doing for the last month that I have had the machine. It works flawlessly but the frame rates at a native 1920x1200 are iffy in maxxed out games like Oblivion and GRAW.

JT

 

[asdasd123123]

Whoa, free upgrade from two to four cards.. That's generous

 

[jtking]

One thing I will say about FNW, you might pay a lot (I have built a dozen systems over the last several years, but chose to have this one built for once), but they do take care of you. Never been a quibble about anything and always quick to offer a solution to the customer.

I'm happy so far.

JT

 

[waylander]

Just so you know, I have the 750w from silverstone and it works great. The reason I suggested that this was a power problem is because I had the same one.... just not from two 7900gx2's

You can see my spec's in my sig but add to that 3 hdd's (one a 150gb raptor), one optical, a fan/light controller, 3 cold cathode lights and 8 fans (six are 120mm) plus my 12v pump (requires 24w) plus an audigy 2 pci card.

My old enermax 600w couldn't handle the OC stable, even when not OC'ed it would give me stability problems.

Upgrade to 750w silverstone and bam! Everything works perfect.

P.S. I ran your system at www.extreme.outervision.com and you come in at 605w (I guessed on the number of hdd's and other things). Now you don't typically see your computer when everything is running full tilt at the same time, even during heavy gaming, but you do need a lot of amps on the 12v rails. Your video cards draw almost 130w EACH and your cpu draws another 100w... that is 360w or 30amps for just the cpu and two video cards. I think your 600w only has 35amps which doesn't leave a lot for the hdd's, optical drives and fans.

 

[jtking]

Good to know...

I have written FFNW asking for a power upgrrade so we shall see how they respond.

My system includes 3 HDD (250gb WD), a DVD and a DVD writer, a Creative Audigy Platinum (with powered front panel), a Sanyo-Denki water cooler for CPU and two cold-cathode tubes.

I am no power expert, but I suspect you are right.

JT

 

[sailer]

I agree with your suggestion of a psu of at least 750 wts. During idle time, the system might not draw that amount, but both during startup and during intense gaming, it would draw more power. I would think about going up to 850 wt myself. Its not a lot more money than a 750 wt and an 850 wt provides a little more breathing space for extra hardware in the future. Sure, that much power costs money, but if a person wants to play with power humgry hardware, then the power has to be supplied.

 

[jtking]

Just got an e-mail support from FNW on these problems. It's interesting to note that they are getting the same issues that I am having and acknowledge that the black-line in the middle is a load-balance issue. More to come...


**************************



Greetings James,

We are looking into the matter further - I would note that we've had some interesting results thus far. We were able to replicate the power off problem. Obviously, there are problems to be worked out with Quad 7950 support; however, it remains to be seen if the power supply will be the culprit.

We've found that the power off problem does appear to be specific to the 91.37 drivers. I would note that the 91.33 drivers do support Quad 7950s and do not experience the power off issue. (Although we were able to replicate the load balance line in the middle of the screen with the 91.33 drivers also.)

We'll keep you posted as information on this develops.

Best,

Matthew Petrie
Falcon Technical Support

 

[jtking]

UPDATE:

FNW would not commit to power being a problem until the release drivers came out. They are now out and I have them. Several issues were resolved, a couple new issues surfaced, and I still have massive power-down problems as posted to Nvidia:

System:
Falcon Northwest FX-62
Corsair PC6400C4 2Gb
BFG 7900GX2 x 2
ASUS MN32-SLi Deluxe (Nforce 590 rev 0404)
Silverstone SST-ST60F
Philips Brilliance 230WP7NS 23" LCD at 1920x1200 native
Windows XP Pro SP2

Problems:
Computer powers off
Alt-Tab produces extremely corrupted screen
Alt-Tab produces machine lock-up

Games:
World of Warcraft (corrupted screen, lock-up)
Ghost Recon: Advanced Warfighter (power-off)
Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion (power-off)

Details:
In World of Warcraft, the machine performs well, showing a significant pick-up in FPS at full detail and 8xAntiAliasing, however, when the game is shut down or Alt-tab from it, I receive an extremely corrupted screen that is completely unreadable (nothing but horizontal multi-colored lines). If I Alt-tab back to WoW, and then back again to the desktop, sometimes I can make it to an uncorrupted desktop. Unfortunately, over half the time the machine will then lock-up within 30 seconds.

In both Ghost Recon and Oblivion the entire machine powers off after entering 3D mode. I do get a screen render (which looks good) but the entire machine powers off within 2 seconds. This does not happen with SLi disabled (i.e. one card).

I have not tested other games yet.


I have a message into FNW and we will see how that goes.

 

[sailer]

Sounds like there are still power supply problems going on. When there is a change in the system draw, it fails. Don't care what FNW wants to claim, they should just admit the problem exists and move up to a bigger psu. A 750 wt may be a bit too much, but in my opinion, I'd rather have a bit too much than a bit too little.

 

[jtking]

Falcon Northwest Response:
I received a call from Matthew, my "case worker" who indicated taht they had identified the problem. Apparently, Nvidia's power person only 'certifies' power supplies that have 18amp on every 12v rail. Now the power supply that I have has an 18amp rail, aand a few others of lesser amperage. The problem comes in when the load is unbalanced., i.e. there is too much draw from one side and not en ough draw from the other. In the case of my system, it is overclocked from the factory, and coupled with both graphics cards on the same rail with the CPU creates a power un-balanced state which shuts down the power supply.

FNW told me that they have experienced the problem on relatively few machines because msot of them are not over clocked or have enough other powered peripherals on the other rails that it does not create the unbalanced state. The unbalanced problem is created because of the way that the power supply manufacturers power the PCIE plugs; namely, they put both PCIE plugs on the same rail, sharing a side withthe CPU power plugs.

So what's the resolution? In my case there are a couple of choices. Oddly enough, I can resolve this by putting MORE draw on the other rail (counterintuitive) to balance the load. Also, a larger powersupply can be put in which "might" have enough extra capacity to handle the load imbalance wihtout triggering the shut down. This is not a desireable resolutiuon for otehr reasons as well, mainly that there is not another power supply which is modular with the proper dimensions to fit this case so all wiring would have to be redone and run - messy and time consuming most likely requiring a return of the box to FNW. The other option is that I can simply use a pcie 6prong power adapter to take it to a molex connector on the other rail, balancing the load. This is the way all current FNW systems of this configuration are currently shipping.

I bithced about being unhappy where all this was concerned, however, because to my mind this is a short-cut by FNW to use a lower powered powersupply by carefulyl balancing load on the rails. This is a problem for someone like me (who usually builds my own systems) for future upgrades. The whole reason that I spent the extra opn the AM2 board was to preserve an upgrade path (typically memory, cpu and 2 sets of graphics cards over the life of the system), so a borderline powersupply was not what I was looking for.

Hearing my complaint, Matthew put me on hold and talked with his GM and offered me this: Silverstone is coming out with a new 750W modular power supply in about 2 months. They will swap my powersupply for that one. In the mean time I wil lget the adapter to wire the second card over to the other rail.

I am happy so far with this resolution and will report again as needed.

JT

 

[jtking]

I instaleld the adapter for the 6-pin PCIE power cord and the 4-pin molex connector and can verify that it does eliminate the power-down problems. The corrupted screen and system locks from world of warcraft are NOT resolved and look driver related. I have not experienced these problems in Oblivion or Eve-Online as of yest.

JT

 

[sailer]

Ok, on the good side, the temporary fix works. The permanent fix is the new psu. The World of Warcraft may be related to power, or may be driver connected. If driver connected, I'd still go after FNW to provide a proper fix (driver) so that there is no problem. After spending that much money for a new computer, it shouldn't have any problems.