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AGP 7600GS or X850 Pro

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July 28, 2006 12:44:51 PM

I've been looking for a last upgrade for my AGP system and came to these two. The X850 Pro seems like one I can tinker with more (trying to unlock, replace the HSF and maybe do a little OC'ng) but it only has sm2 and I play Far Cry. The 7600GS has sm3 and fp HDR but doesn't run near as fast and can't crank out higher resolutions. My monitor's max res is 1280x960, so both should do that right. I'm looking to play FEAR, Far Cry, COD:2, NFS:MW, maybe that star wars game empire at war I think. Well I play far cry but a 6200 doesn't do it justice. Oh and I don't have enough money for a complete system upgrade or a 7800GS.
7600GS here :arrow:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E1681...
the X850 Pro here :arrow:
http://shop.ati.com/product.asp?sku=2699206
My specs:
P4 2.66ghz
512 ddr400 about to be 1.5gig
6200
New PSU should be here soon. (Silverstone 500W)

More about : agp 7600gs x850 pro

July 28, 2006 12:49:23 PM

X850Pro would be better.
July 28, 2006 1:25:54 PM

Quote:
X850Pro would be better.

I concur.
Related resources
July 28, 2006 1:35:22 PM

Wouldn't both of them be bottlenecked by my CPU?
July 28, 2006 2:00:34 PM

No, CPU is fine.
July 28, 2006 2:53:29 PM

I don't know if this one's such a slam-dunk. If Far Cry's your thing, the 7600 GS would be able to deliver HDR, and probably at 1280 resolution playably.

But yeah, the X850 PROs probably got alot more oomph.
July 28, 2006 2:56:35 PM

the 7600gs is an awful card. stay clear.

the 850 is a much better card tho.

*edit. mistake. ment the 7800gs. not the 7600. i have not idea how the 7600 would perform. but my geuss would be a midrange card vs the high range card will always win.
July 28, 2006 3:00:15 PM

X850Pro will give you faster frames, allowing for more effects and so on. HDR is nice, but bloom is fine, especially with the performance hit from HDR on a mid-range card. X850 is the way to go.
July 28, 2006 4:50:55 PM

don`t forget my friend that ...the difference between sm2 and sm3 is very small....sm2 also has types of hdr..bloom is a hdr,
as for the contenders listed above 7600gs is a joke comparing to any x800.....

with x850pro you cam play easily fear or any other modern game with AA at 1024x768 for example...7600gs can barelly play fear at 800x600 no AA...and the examples can continue...

7600 was intended to be a midrange card ..and has it`s price accordingly...do not compare the prices now ...cause x850 pro has been arround for almost one year and the price has droped since....
July 28, 2006 5:09:05 PM

Quote:
bloom is a hdr


No, it's not...


Fear is quite playable in a 7600 GS with 2xAA at 1024x768.

In Far Cry, it'll average about 45 fps with HDR at 1024 res, very playable. And they do overclock well.


I'm not saying the X850 PRO isn't more powerful.. it is. But you're talking like it's twice as fast. I'm thinking it's more like 15% to 20% faster maybe. I don't think the 7600 GS would be such a horrible choice.

Does anyone have head-to-head benches of 'em?
July 28, 2006 5:37:31 PM

Quote:
bloom is a hdr


No, it's not...


Fear is quite playable in a 7600 GS with 2xAA at 1024x768.

In Far Cry, it'll average about 45 fps with HDR at 1024 res, very playable. And they do overclock well.


I'm not saying the X850 PRO isn't more powerful.. it is. But you're talking like it's twice as fast. I'm thinking it's more like 15% to 20% faster maybe. I don't think the 7600 GS would be such a horrible choice.

Does anyone have head-to-head benches of 'em?
http://www.techtree.com/techtree/jsp/article.jsp?articl...
Here's one with a 7600gs pci-e against a x800gto pci-e
July 28, 2006 5:55:48 PM

Quote:
the 7600gs is an awful card. stay clear.

the 850 is a much better card tho.

*edit. mistake. ment the 7800gs. not the 7600. i have not idea how the 7600 would perform. but my geuss would be a midrange card vs the high range card will always win.


If you ment the 7800gs, why did u say it«s awful?? 8O
I don´t know if u are from this planet, but here, in planet earth those are the best agp cards...
July 28, 2006 6:01:24 PM

alright..i agree with the 10 to 15% average ..but there you have the x800gto and x800gt ..which are far behind a x850pro....

7600gs is a new tech card but slow and reduced memory bandwith...which makes the x850 a clear winner
July 28, 2006 6:02:15 PM

Quote:
the 7600gs is an awful card. stay clear.

the 850 is a much better card tho.

*edit. mistake. ment the 7800gs. not the 7600. i have not idea how the 7600 would perform. but my geuss would be a midrange card vs the high range card will always win.


7800gs is an aweful card? I strongly disagree. It draws the top of the line for AGP.
July 28, 2006 6:09:42 PM

memory interface: 7600gs = 128

X850pro=256

larger memory interface for graphics cards is the biggest difference from low end to high end cards.
July 28, 2006 6:14:11 PM

Quote:
memory interface: 7600gs = 128

X850pro=256

larger memory interface for graphics cards is the biggest difference from low end to high end cards.


there you have it my friend .. at a similar memory speed you have exactly double bandwith...


who said anything about 7800gs.....i think it`s a mistake..no one said anything about this ...and no agp involved
July 28, 2006 6:25:27 PM

READ THIS PLEASE!!!!

don't get either
the link you posted was to the x850 pro

get the x800xl
http://shop.ati.com/product.asp?sku=2984012

it is a better card and cheaper at just $119

That is the x850 Pro
not the x850 xt big difference the 800xt has 16 pipes, and the 850pro only has 12
the x800xl is just a lower clocked x800xt wich is just a lower clocked x850xt
the x800xl beats an x850pro accross the board
http://www.ixbt.com/video2/sapphire-13-d.shtml#p119

the 850 pro is a slightly overclocked 800 pro trust me get the x800xl
July 28, 2006 6:32:43 PM

Quote:
READ THIS PLEASE!!!!

don't get either
the link you posted was to the x850 pro

get the x800xl
http://shop.ati.com/product.asp?sku=2984012

it is a better card and cheaper at just $119

That is the x850 Pro
not the x850 xt big difference the 800xt has 16 pipes, and the 850pro only has 12
the x800xl is just a lower clocked x800xt wich is just a lower clocked x850xt
the x800xl beats an x800pro accross the board
http://www.techreport.com/reviews/2004q4/radeon-x800xl/...

the 850 pro is a slightly overclocked 800 pro trust me get the x800xl

The X850Pro is NOT a slightly overclocked 800Pro. If you're into overclocking, you can flash the X850Pro BIOS to an X850XT PE. That would easily outperform all of the cards you mentioned, and any of the cards mentioned in this thread.
July 28, 2006 6:42:37 PM

I agree, the 7800gs is an awesome card. Overclocks really freakin well and the temps stay quite low. Outperforms my 6800Ultra quite easily at high resolutions.
July 28, 2006 6:45:40 PM

And that's why you don't trust people with less than 25 posts my good friends. X850Pro. End of story. There's no ifs, ands, or buts. X850Pro>7600GS. Can we call it a day now?
July 28, 2006 6:49:52 PM

Quote:
I agree, the 7800gs is an awesome card. Overclocks really freakin well and the temps stay quite low. Outperforms my 6800Ultra quite easily at high resolutions.

The only problem with the 7800GS is the price. I don't know if it's worth it to put that much money into a dying AGP interface. You're right though, it has a lot of overhead room for overclocking. I'd imagine the 7600GS is the same way. I bet you could get some respectable overclocks out of that card.
July 28, 2006 6:50:52 PM

Quote:
And that's why you don't trust people with less than 25 posts my good friends. X850Pro. End of story. There's no ifs, ands, or buts. X850Pro>7600GS. Can we call it a day now?

I wouldn't trust anyone on this board. We're all dillusional.
July 28, 2006 6:52:32 PM

Quote:
I agree, the 7800gs is an awesome card. Overclocks really freakin well and the temps stay quite low. Outperforms my 6800Ultra quite easily at high resolutions.


here we go again..yo ...samebody put this 7800gs in here and it was supposed to be 7600gs not 7800gs
July 28, 2006 7:00:07 PM

Hi i think U should go for the 7600GS because there u got HDR (High Dinamic range) on the ATI u only got these feature on X1xxx.
a b U Graphics card
July 28, 2006 9:45:23 PM

Quote:
Does anyone have head-to-head benches of 'em?


The X850 pro and X800XL are very close, edge at stock speeds to the X800XL. Digit-life shows the X800XL absolutley spanking the 7600GS. It litterally is a 100% boost in some games with high res and eye candy enabled. So it definately depends. AT 7600GS max playable settings the XL may only be ahead 15-20%, but at X800XL max playable settings the difference can be huge depending which game; seems the 7600GS dies out high res with fsaa. Really, looking at their charts, it seems the Vanilla 6800 (low clocked 350/600 version even) beats out the 7600GS in all the eye candy tests I checked.

http://www.digit-life.com/articles2/digest3d/index.html

Take a look at Farcry 12x10 and 16x12 with aa/af. The X800XL is more than 100% faster in those two charts. Surprisingly, Doom 3 12x10 4x/16x the X800XL blew out the 7600GS, 41 fps vs 28 fps. fear 10x7 4x/16x was another blowout, 45fps vs. 29 fps.
July 29, 2006 2:09:19 AM

Do u know if Far Cry has any kind of sm2 HDR like HL:2 does? Or bloom effects maybe. I've only heard of FC using FP blending HDR so that's only the 7600GS which looks plain inferior in terms of power
July 29, 2006 5:04:54 AM

Quote:
Do u know if Far Cry has any kind of sm2 HDR like HL:2 does? Or bloom effects maybe. I've only heard of FC using FP blending HDR so that's only the 7600GS which looks plain inferior in terms of power


you are wrong man ..just read the d**n link pauldh has there
a b U Graphics card
July 29, 2006 2:52:36 PM

No, HDR in Farcry is SM3.0 cards only. Honestly, I find it too hard on my 6800U even to consider using it. It's 10x7 HDR or 12x10 4xaa with the 6800U. HDR in Farcry comes at a huge performance hit, I wouldn't buy a 7600GS over a X800XL or X850 pro with thoughts of gaming with HDR in Farcry. You'll drop resolution(and maybe even details) and can't run fsaa as a tradeoff.

A couple screenshots so you can see what HDR looks like in Farcry. It's nice and very noticeable. fsaa was off for the HDR pic; Even at 16x12 res you can see the jaggies on the montain peak and the gun. That would be worse with a lower resolution. But note that 4Xfsaa scores 71 fps and HDR scores 40 fps; big hit using HDR even on the X1800XT. If I get a chance, I'll take the same screenies of a 6800U at 10x7, 1 with hdr, and 1 with 4xaa.

Farcry 1600x1200 max in game detials with HDR:


Farcry 1600x1200 max in game detials 4Xfsaa:



Two more screenies 1280x1024. No fsaa on either pic this time, only difference was enabling HDR. The performance hit is again HUGE, even though the X1800XT has the muscle for it, a 7600GS would choke I'd think. And when you consider the extra oomf a X800XL( or X850 pro) has over it with fsaa even, the sacrifices resolution/ detail level/framerate sacrifices of going fsaa on a X800XL compared to HDR on a 7600GS, would be downright huge!

No HDR


HDR 7
July 29, 2006 5:40:39 PM

Thanks a lot Pauldh. I was hoping to run HDR on Far Cry, but I guess I'm not going to, I'll go with the X850 Pro cause then I can flash it to an XT PE maybe with a new fan. Thanks a lot. i guess I'm trading HDR for max everytihing else on every other game.
July 29, 2006 6:37:47 PM

NOW WAIT JUST A MINUTE!!!!! BE WARNED, NOT ALL X850 Pros WILL FLASH TO X850 XTs!!!! I bought one from Bestbuy about 8 months ago... turned out it was a locked GPU... I'd actually consider the X800XL and look for how well it can overclock.

EDIT: If you wanna try your luck, buy the X850 Pro from a retail store. That way, if it doesn't flash, just say it wouldn't work with your PC. I was able to get a full refund from Bestbuy (card ended up being defective anyways). It beats having to pay restocking fees and re-ship fees.
a b U Graphics card
July 29, 2006 7:12:57 PM

Hey, no problem. I actually captured those 6800U farcry pics. I won't post them unless there are some you would want to see, but here are the framerates:

Test system:A64 3000+, 2GB PC3200 2-3-2-5 1T, BFG6800U OC @ 425/1100 stock BFG speeds. Farcry max in game detail settings.

In the shot looking down across the water:
52 fps - 1024x768 0xaa 8xaf no HDR
32 fps - 1024x768 0xaa 8xaf HDR 7
53 fps - 1280x1024 0xaa 8xaf no HDR
22 fps - 1280x1024 0xaa 8xaf HDR 7
50 fps - 1280x1024 4xaa 8xaf no HDR

In the shot looking up toward the shack:
80 fps - 1024x768 0xaa 8xaf no HDR
32 fps - 1024x768 0xaa 8xaf HDR 7
80 fps - 1280x1024 0xaa 8xaf no HDR
24 fps - 1280x1024 0xaa 8xaf HDR 7
57 fps - 1280x1024 4xaa 8xaf no HDR

Basically, it seems that without HDR or FSAA I was cpu limited even with an A64 3000+. AT 10x7 and 12x10, I got the same framerates in both shots at both resolutions. Enabling 4xaa at 12x10 I became GPU limited dropping from 53 fps to 50 fps in the one shot and 80 fps to 57 fps in the other shot. But HDR basically made the 6800U scream for mercy. 10x7 dropped from 80 fps to 32 fps in the shack pic and 52 fps to 32 fps in the pic looking across the water. 12x10 dies even more with HDR, dropping 80 fps to 24 fps, and 53 fps to 22 fps.

Anyway, I was just curious again myself so I ran the tests. As I remember, even 10x7 max detials was too much for the 6800U OC, 32 fps in both shots, without any action going on. Anyway, as you can see that at 12x10 max details with 4xAA/8XAF, I got 50 fps and 57 fps. Thoese are the settings I used to play through farcry on the 6800U. 10x7 + HDR with lowered detials no fsaa and still less performance is fine to demo for a day or two, but it's not how I personally would want to play the game.




(ah, I tried, but) I can't resist showing the most drastic example of why I didn't use HDR with a 6800U. look at the fps counter.

12x10 no HDR


12x10 HDR


If you want to see any of those other 6800U screenies, let me know. I think the X850 pro without an unlock is the better card and $139 is a nice price. If it unlocks, better yet. I ended up getting the X800XL instead for $113.05. Refurb, but 1 year warranty at least.

But be warned, COD2, Oblivion, and Fear will be rough games even for the X850 pro. It will crank along in Farcry and HL2 though.
July 29, 2006 8:30:07 PM

Here is Far Cry with my nVidia card.

July 29, 2006 8:44:33 PM

Wow...

With the 7600 and my A64@ 2.55 Ghz, I'm getting an average of 46 fps on the training level @ 1280x1024 with HDR... Very playable.

All I can guess is either Far Cry really likes a little extra CPU power, or the 7600 GT is way more shader efficient than the 6800 Ultra...

Without HDR, they perform similarly. 4xAA/no HDR on the 7600 GT, the framerates look very similar to your 4xAA/no HDR results on the 6800 Ultra.
a b U Graphics card
July 29, 2006 8:48:23 PM

:lol:  Alrighty then.

Hey, you should try it on your card. I used the 3rd (i think) save point in training to capture those two pics. I'd be curious as to how much better the 7800GS does handling HDR than the 6800U. How big a hit yours takes with and without enabling HDR.

I used
\r_hdrendering 7
a b U Graphics card
July 29, 2006 9:01:58 PM

Interesting. is that with the 7600GT at stock speeds or OC'ed? All in game settings at maximum? How about HDR version? I like the looks of HDR 7 but I hear HDR 2 takes less of a hit. Farcry 1.4? or 1.33? Driver version? I only tried HDR 7 today as that is what the X1800XT pics were showing.

I could try and OC the 3000+ (it was stock 1.8GHz), but I'd be surprised if it helps with the HDR performance, or in my case lack thereof :wink: I should have tried HDR 2 also though.
July 29, 2006 9:11:22 PM

x850pro all the way
July 30, 2006 12:53:39 AM

Quote:
Basically, it seems that without HDR or FSAA I was cpu limited even with an A64 3000+. AT 10x7 and 12x10, I got the same framerates in both shots at both resolutions. Enabling 4xaa at 12x10 I became GPU limited dropping from 53 fps to 50 fps in the one shot and 80 fps to 57 fps in the other shot. But HDR basically made the 6800U scream for mercy.


So you're CPU limited with a 3000! I'm on an ol p4 2.66 so I'll probably be bottlenecked more.
I was initially thinking about getting the 7600 because I heard when u use HDR on the 7 series cards the performance hit isn't so bad when compared to the 6 series, but even so my computer will be kick'n with an X850 Pro (compared to my 64-bit GF 6200). Oh and I'm pretty sure it can make FEAR look really good until it starts lagging. my 6200 makes that game look ok already.

One more question Is patriot memory any good? I was thinking of getting this but i've heard patriot wasn't that good.
a b U Graphics card
July 30, 2006 1:20:54 AM

Yeah, but CPU limited at 57-80 fps when no eye candy is used. Enable fsaa or HDR and it switches to GPU limitation.

I have had no issues with patriot memory; I'd say it's good stuff.
July 30, 2006 4:46:35 AM

Quote:


Hey, you should try it on your card.

I have a Samsung 19" LCD, which means 1280x1024 max :roll:

My screenies wont look nearly as good(though transparency AA is nice on this game).
July 30, 2006 6:15:47 AM

7600 GT @ stock speeds, all settings maxed, ver 1.33 (because 1.4 screws up totally on the 7600 GT, lots of weitrd artifacts for me)

HDR level at 3 though, maybe that's the factor... that's where I like it, any more seems excessive to my eyes anyway. Personal taste though.
a b U Graphics card
July 30, 2006 3:38:46 PM

Ah, probably a combination of the 7600GT doing HDR better and hDR level 3 vs 7. I tried HDR 2 last night on the X1800 and at 16x12 max, HDR 2 yielded 14 fps higher than HDR 7 (41 vs 55), so It could be that big or even bigger on the 6800U. I'll try that as it should make 10x7 very playable and maybe bring 12x10 up over 30 fps.
July 31, 2006 6:05:18 AM

Well Mr. unonimus. Crysis probably won't go well with any of these cards, but I'm getting the X850 Pro because it simply overpowers the 7600GS and the 850 has the ability to unlock.
July 31, 2006 6:56:21 AM

well said my friend ..... gt it`s ok....but gs (and expecially agp) is way to weak for a x850pro
a b U Graphics card
July 31, 2006 2:42:02 PM

That's just one review. Others like these charts show the X850 pro beating the 6800GT more often than not.
http://www.ixbt.com/video2/sapphire-13-d.shtml#p17

Really, IMO 6800GT, X800XL, and X850 pro are all equal performers trading blows depending on the game, settings, and even reviewers test methods.


As for the 7600GS, it is way below a 6800GT. Don't be fooled that newer is better. The 6800U quite often beats the 7600GT even.

Just look what the X800XL, 6800GT, high clocked 6800GS PCI-e do to the 7600GS:
http://www.digit-life.com/articles2/digest3d/0606/itogi...

More games here: http://www.digit-life.com/articles2/digest3d/index.html

Shoot, the X800GTO is slower than the X850 pro and it has no trouble beating the 7600GS most of the time.
July 31, 2006 2:51:34 PM

Quote:
The 7600GS should outpower the X850 PRO with no problem at all.


Whoa, whoa! That conclusion is overly simplistic.

I was advocating the 7600 GS, and even I knew it was overpowered by the X850 PRO..., I just wasn't sure how much. But Paul set me straight... :wink: ... the difference was more than I'd originally thought.

Don't assume that newer = more powerful. And read the thread before you interject, you would have seen the benchmarks posted! :) 
November 7, 2006 9:16:18 PM

In the UK older generation AGP cards are hard to get
the x850 pro is about £ 140 (even more expensive than the 7600 GT) whereas the 7600 gs is about £ 80.
!