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"Arthur Entlich" <e-printerhelp@mvps.org> wrote in message
news:QZ8ue.69809$El.825@pd7tw1no...
>
>
> Marky wrote:
>
> > "Arthur Entlich" <e-printerhelp@mvps.org> wrote in message
> > news:9BNse.1727244$6l.944676@pd7tw2no...
> >
> >>Thanks for replying Marky.
> >>
> >>I realize you may be in an uncomfortable or even impossible position in
> >>addressing some of these specific issues, and I don't fault you for
that.
> >
> >
> > Actually, Art, I don't feel uncomfortable about anything here. Even when
I
> > was working for Epson tech support I would answer as honestly as I knew
how.
> > Some of us preferred to be ignorant to the industry and that suited me
fine.
> > I probably could have delved deeper into other printer manufacturers
dirty
> > laundry but that's not my style. I was doing what I liked
doing...helping
> > people.
> >
> >
>
> I'm glad to hear that you were able to follow your muse within the
> restricted company policies Epson and many other hardware manufacturers
> dictate. I always found it particularly amusing when front line Epson
> pre-sales people would deny the existence of a printer that was on
> Epson's when site in another area of the world. I realize that some
> printers might never make it to N.A. or change spec, but to deny its
> existence "I'm sorry but no such printer exists with that model number"
> was a bit humorous.
That's not really a good answer. I'd had a few calls on non-NA models but it
was quite simple to answer...if they were not manufactured in NA we don't
support them and if anyone needed information on them they could visit the
host country website. They may or may not be the same as products sold here
and we really didn't know. Many times products were released in the US and
support didn't know about it till they were actually getting calls on them
or shortly before. There were 'heads up" memos sent and we had to scramble
to find the information. But there were also times when products were not
released and we had to deal with customers demanding to know the details and
would not believe that we didn't have information.
> > Trial lawyers love stirring the pot themselves...it makes for good
business
> > and our current 'victim' syndrome works to their advantage. I wouldn't
go as
> > far as to say that trial lawyers are scum, but I'd have to say I don't
see
> > them doing consumers any favors. Like the tobacco settlement, the cost
is
> > eventually passed on to the consumer and the corporations don't feel a
> > thing. Big auto, big oil and big asbestos learned this long ago as well
> > (except big asbestos isn't allowed to sell their 'consumables' in NA any
> > longer...at least not openly).
> >
>
> Trial lawyers ar principally out for make money, just like more other
> businesses, and sometimes they also do some good. I have been involve
> din numerous class acts and yes, overall the lawyers walk away with the
> majority of the booty, and sometimes the client either gets little of
> less than little as the corporation writes off the fines as a business
> loss, or raises prices to compensate for the loses. But, since the
> government really does its job of enforcing legislation and law, it
> leaves few other choices. None the less, not informing people of the
> waste ink pad limitation is wrong and needs to be dealt with somehow and
> Epson sure ain't hearing me, so what choice is there but litigation.
Not sure if they're working on that now, but I really think that Epson would
have thought out the fine points long ago. Either that or they simply sit
back and wait for the litigation and then tie it up and drag it out till
they do or they have the game plan down.
> Further, companies DO victimize clients, way too often, and it is often
> not be mistake, but by design. Don't tell me Epson didn't sit down with
> their engineers and their MBAs and figure out how to manipulate the
> business model. They didn't stumble upon these "solutions" they worked
> them out and how to profit by them.
That could well be, but so do many other companies and we seem to tolerate
it...Mickey D's has been pumping our bodies full of salt, sugar and fat
levels carefully manipulated to get us (those who eat there) to keep coming
back for more...Big auto has designed vehicles with a limited range and a
limited tank that ensures that we keep stopping in at Big Oil for more more
more...and who can compete with either?
Bicycles are not as popular as cars these days...even though they would
reduce the overall pollution and get people in shape so that they would both
live longer and fret less...we could probably toss the whole recycle program
in the waste basket and live happily ever after if we could remove auto
pollution from the environment.
> Epson has done everything in their power to manufacturer a system where
> only their patented cartridges will work. In so doing they limit the
> ability for 3rd parties to come up with working consumable products.
Probably true, but I don't think that is totally wrong. Print heads failing
and waste ink pad engineering are probably bigger sins but, again, I would
imagine they are addressing those issues.
> Luckily, some smart engineers are just a few paces behind Epson's own
> and figuring out ways to get around patent restrictions to make
> compatible answers. It would be one thing if Epson was making designs
> to solve real problems., but at least half and likely more of the design
> "features" are about protecting their ink market. Worse still, some are
> absolutely about protecting their ink market to the determine of the
> functionality of the products.
I realize that this is an issue of third party providers being put out more
than anything else. If there are people who have time to sit around and
figure out how to beat the Epson system so they can capitalize on their
design then why are they not simply making their own printers that work
better and use their own inks?
> Yes, that's the superficial side of it, (and I think the actual value
> per cartridges i closer to .04 cents than 40), but you have to dig
> deeper to find the fraud. The company Epson has contracted to do this
> program had an established program of ink and toner recycling before
> Epson came along. The company has non-profits, like schools, collect
> cartridges for which they pay an equivalent to cash amount in points.
> The company then allows the organizations to "buy" certain goods for
> these points from them. The value of the points is not very high, and
> gives a somewhat strange exchange rate, since they tend to use old
> values for old technology. They also offer OEM ink cartridges from the
> same companies they collect for, which I am sure cost them very little,
> but that's all "above board" as far as it goes.
>
> What isn't is specifically with Epson cartridges. The company actually
> restricts how many Epson cartridges that can be shipped per mailing, and
> only Epson has this limitation. Why? Because unlike all the other
> cartridges, the Epson's are not reused or recycled. The others are sold
> for refurbishing and refilled or at worse, some plastics and metals are
> separated are recycled into other goods.
I'm not aware of all the details but, again, as far as I can see it is a
start. I realize that the other manufacturers cartridges can be refilled but
how many people actually do that and how many simply toss them in the basket
to buy more? I know that the Epson market share is up but they are not
monopolizing the printer/ink cartridge consumption anywhere. That means that
there are probably millions of non-Epson ink cartridges making their way
into landfill sites all around the world.
It would be interesting to know, but I really doubt that anyone has any
figures that could point out clearly that our waste programs are not
handling millions of non-epson cartridges simply because people in NA are
either not educated on the benefits of refilling inks or because they can't
be bothered. I would have to say that I am somewhat of an exception here in
Canada because I actually spend several hours every month bothering myself
with recycling.
Aside from my understanding that the recycling program in Canada is a farce
(and I can only add one and one together to know that the US is a bigger
joke in this regards), I still do it because of my personal ideology.
Knowing how most people in NA treat their environment it's amazing that
people here would decry the environmental dealings of any corporation. We
are, apparently, working towards better programs and pushing compliance but
the big picture shows we are far from being a civilization that can claim to
be 'aware' of the impact that our 'consumerism' has on the planet. The
dollar always wins...and we, as a part of this ecosystem, are offensive by
nature.
> Not Epson's. Epson's cartridges are incinerated "in an environmentally
> safe manner". Now, the fact that there really isn't a safe way to
> incinerate a device that is made up of various plastics, rubbers and
> metals and which has volatile solvents and potentially toxic colorants
> in it, is one thing, but Epson implies these incinerators produce
> "green" energy!!!
I haven't been following the hype. It is a far more complex issue that does
not allow us to lay blame on any one company for their shortcomings
concerning the environment. We, as consumers, are the ones who get caught up
in the hype. We tend to froth at the mouth till we get the biggest and best
products our budgets can afford (let's not talk about the national debt and
how credit is destroying our lives) without understanding the fine points
involved...like how does this product really affect my life even though I
can do with it what I am told I can do...by the hype...
Until we learn that we can live without a printer, car, computer, air
conditioning, and any of the many other luxuries that contribute to the
overall contamination of this tiny enclosed space we call home, or until we
are producing truly safe and environmentally friendly products, I really
doubt that any number of law suits are going to put a dent in the actual
problems of our environment.
> So, the truth is, Epson cartridges and their toxic waste components, are
> burned into trash, polluting the air and the heat may be drawn off for
> some use (maybe to shred the plastic, if they even do that?)
I'd have to admit they could probably work on that a bit, regardless of what
I said above.
> That's because everyone who has a printer has a few dead or unused ones
> in their basement of closet, feeling guilty about tossing them, but not
> using them. Eventually those, and literally millions of tons of other
> computer related technology will have to go somewhere. Right now the
> majority is in storage, or the e-garbage has been shipped off to the
> developing world for them to try to deal with, not as working computers,
> but as reclaimable where they don't have the same labor costs, or water
> and air quality legislation, so they burn off plastic insulation from
> wires to recycle the copper, for instance. This, in spite of many
> countries being signatories to prohibition from those exact types of
> exports.
Unfortunately I am not aware of where our egarbage goes so I'd have to take
your word for it. I had read only recently that someone had figured out a
way to recycle some of it but I don't have the article handy and cannot
remember the details offhand.
> A lot of paper is made from recycled fiber now and almost all has some
> recycled components. In most countries all the paper could be fully
> recycled if the systems and awareness existed. I'm not suggesting paper
> should be wasted, but it's an almost completely recyclable product. The
> same cannot be said about ink cartridges, or printers, for instance.
True. Many years ago I worked in the paper industry (corrugated) and was
enlightened about the paper recycling process. It was, of course, greatly
exagerated about how safe and clean the whole thing was since the
environment was becoming an item. Times have changed since then, I'd hope,
but far too often we are presented with eye-opening details that tend to
smash our hopes of ever being truly a 'safe' bunch of inhabitants.
We do have much to learn about harmony and balance and hopefully we learn it
before we inflict too much damage on ourselves.
Marky