Debate: Core 2 Duo Platform a paper launch?

[mpjesse]

This one is going to draw some serious flameage...

I'm going to be the first to say it: The Core 2 Duo platform is an elaborate paper launch. Maybe I'm jumping the gun a bit, but it's becoming very evident to most that the only Core 2 Duo to be had is the $1000+ Extreme version. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I haven't seen a single online retailer selling anything other than Extreme. I've seen pre-orders and "sold out" for the E6700, 6600, etc... but I know of no one who actually has one in hand or has had one shipped.

Couple no availability with the lack of decent affordable motherboards and I'd say we've got a paper launch here folks. Let's take a look at the motherboards that support Core 2 Duo.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813131025
Available, but $270 bones. Waaaaaaaay to steep for this mobo. I think there's a bit of price gouging going on here...

http://www.anandtech.com/mb/showdoc.aspx?i=2797&p=4
Near as I can tell, this board does not exist. I challenge someone to find one that's in stock and for sale...

http://www.anandtech.com/mb/showdoc.aspx?i=2797&p=6
Same story, different mobo maker. This time Asus is the culprit. This board does not exist on Asus's website nor can I find it for sale anywhere.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813131028
Can't find this one either...

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813128323
Holy Taledo! $280?!?!

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813136168
Slightly less... $250. Probably a C2D Extreme buyer's best option. DFI rocks.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813127004&CMP=OTC-pr1c3watch&ATT=13-127-004
Much, much more affordable. But no dual PCI-16/8x.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813157092
At $60, this is affordable. But the low price tag comes with a cost. Only 2 DIMM slots and the legendary crappy name of ASRock.

Keep in mind, there are no SLI or CrossFire certified boards out there. There's plans for some, but they can't be had yet. I'd get into the memory issue, but I'm too tired to start with that. Only a handful of high end memory makers make PC2 8000 or 8500 memory. And it's all very expensive. So you're going to pay an arm and a leg for a 1066mhz FSB.

This is baffling to me because Intel has been previewing C2D for well over 5 months now. And it ain't like the i975X chipset is anything revolutionary. So why does availability suck? We didn't see this issue with LGA775 or AM2... did we? And I'm a little surprised nVidia didn't have a new Intel based chipset ready to roll... i'm hearing a new chipset won't be intro'd for another few weeks at the earliest!

All that being said, I'm still planning on buying a C2D. But for someone with the will and cash in hand, it's simply not possible. That equates to paper launch in my book.

Thoughts?

 

[1Tanker]

This one is going to draw some serious flameage...

I'm going to be the first to say it: The Core 2 Duo platform is an elaborate paper launch. Maybe I'm jumping the gun a bit, but it's becoming very evident to most that the only Core 2 Duo to be had is the $1000+ Extreme version. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I haven't seen a single online retailer selling anything other than Extreme. I've seen pre-orders and "sold out" for the E6700, 6600, etc... but I know of no one who actually has one in hand or has had one shipped.

Couple no availability with the lack of decent affordable motherboards and I'd say we've got a paper launch here folks. Let's take a look at the motherboards that support Core 2 Duo.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813131025
Available, but $270 bones. Waaaaaaaay to steep for this mobo. I think there's a bit of price gouging going on here...

http://www.anandtech.com/mb/showdoc.aspx?i=2797&p=4
Near as I can tell, this board does not exist. I challenge someone to find one that's in stock and for sale...

http://www.anandtech.com/mb/showdoc.aspx?i=2797&p=6
Same story, different mobo maker. This time Asus is the culprit. This board does not exist on Asus's website nor can I find it for sale anywhere.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813131028
Can't find this one either...

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813128323
Holy Taledo! $280?!?!

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813136168
Slightly less... $250. Probably a C2D Extreme buyer's best option. DFI rocks.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813127004&CMP=OTC-pr1c3watch&ATT=13-127-004
Much, much more affordable. But no dual PCI-16/8x.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813157092
At $60, this is affordable. But the low price tag comes with a cost. Only 2 DIMM slots and the legendary crappy name of ASRock.

Keep in mind, there are no SLI or CrossFire certified boards out there. There's plans for some, but they can't be had yet. I'd get into the memory issue, but I'm too tired to start with that. Only a handful of high end memory makers make PC2 8000 or 8500 memory. And it's all very expensive. So you're going to pay an arm and a leg for a 1066mhz FSB.

This is baffling to me because Intel has been previewing C2D for well over 5 months now. And it ain't like the i975X chipset is anything revolutionary. So why does availability suck? We didn't see this issue with LGA775 or AM2... did we? And I'm a little surprised nVidia didn't have a new Intel based chipset ready to roll... i'm hearing a new chipset won't be intro'd for another few weeks at the earliest!

All that being said, I'm still planning on buying a C2D. But for someone with the will and cash in hand, it's simply not possible. That equates to paper launch in my book.

Thoughts?

I still say that even though it wasn't said publicly(that i know of) Intel did inform review sites about Aug 7th. It clearly states that Core2 Extreme's will be available as of the 27th, but Core2Duo won't be til Aug 7th or later.

http://forumz.tomshardware.com/hardware/Reality-check-Conroe-availability-ftopict193112.html

Intel Core 2 Extreme processor based systems and boxed product are expected to be available on the day of launch, 27 July. Intel Core 2 Duo processor based systems and boxed product [through places such as Newegg] are expected to be available from 7 August.

From what Intel is telling us, you shouldn't be able to so much as purchase Core 2 processors until after the first week in August, although you'll be able to get complete systems before then.

 

[xsandman]

WOW! This is just horribly written post. It is ONLY the SECOND day it has been out! That does not say ANYTHING about a paper launch! You never heard anything about the AM2s because they didn't have any great performance and there wasn't much media about it, therefor no one was waiting for it. AMD is KNOWN for paper launches, not Intel. AMD used to released processors and it would take a MONTH to get their newest CPU, especially the top end. And you also dont include OEMs. If full computers with C2D are readily available within the first week, then you can not call it a paper launch.

The idea that this is a paper launch because you can't get a Conroe in the channel within 2 days of the launch is absurd!

 

[1Tanker]

Whether this qualifies it as a paper-launch, i don't know. I don't think it can be called that for sure, until Aug. 7th. :?

 

[Artmic]

I know i will call it a paper launch if i dont get my X6800 by the end of the 3rd week of August

 

[1Tanker]

I know i will call it a paper launch if i dont get my X6800 by the end of the 3rd week of August

I wouldn't be able to sleep at night if i had (the system you have on order) ordered.. I'd be like a kid on X-Mas morning

 

[xsandman]

I know i will call it a paper launch if i dont get my X6800 by the end of the 3rd week of August

This is reasonable, if we do not see healthy availability 2-3 weeks after then we can say retrospect paper launch.

2-3 weeks into august would DEFINITELY be a paper launch if you can not buy a system. But if people are buying systems like crazy, it may be hard to get a boxed CPU if you dont pre-order it. They might be selling faster than places are receiving them.

 

[Action_Man]

On a different note --- I am not sure if many people are aware, but there is a 'packaging' substrate supply issue industry wide

I'm aware of but whats the reason for the supply issues?

 

[1Tanker]

I know i will call it a paper launch if i dont get my X6800 by the end of the 3rd week of August

This is reasonable, if we do not see healthy availability 2-3 weeks after then we can say retrospect paper launch.

2-3 weeks into august would DEFINITELY be a paper launch if you can not buy a system. But if people are buying systems like crazy, it may be hard to get a boxed CPU if you dont pre-order it. They might be selling faster than places are receiving them.

On the same page --- it could just be high demand. I am searching for MBs, had my eye on the Asus P5W DH but none to be found with a few searches --- all back ordered.

On a different note --- I am not sure if many people are aware, but there is a 'packaging' substrate supply issue industry wide, ATI cited this as a reason for availability problems a quarter or two ago, other manufacturers are complaining of the same thing. So I am not sure the bottle neck is not enough chips have been fabbed or if they are simply waiting in line to be packaged.

For those who do not know, the manufacture of the CPU die is roughly 70% of the total process. The other 30% is packaging in which the die is cast into ceramic moldes, fitted with the heat spreader and wired to the pins (flip chip design). It is the ceramic material from the news that is in short supply. This would also explain the trickle out of AM2 processors initially....

JackInteresting. Do you know the reason for the supply shortage? Is it a material shortage, just unable to keep up with demand, labour problems(example-strike/plant closing)?

 

[mark8987]

This is such a dumb thread. A paper launch is when something is released but it isn't in fact available. I have seen the Conroe in stock at a number of places - even as far away as Australia, and a number of people have confirmed that orders have been shipped.

Sure, demand exceeds supply for many of the chips at present, but there is ample evidence showing that this isn't a paper launch.

 

[turpit]

This one is going to draw some serious flameage...

I'm going to be the first to say it: The Core 2 Duo platform is an elaborate paper launch. Maybe I'm jumping the gun a bit, but it's becoming very evident to most that the only Core 2 Duo to be had is the $1000+ Extreme version. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I haven't seen a single online retailer selling anything other than Extreme. I've seen pre-orders and "sold out" for the E6700, 6600, etc... but I know of no one who actually has one in hand or has had one shipped.

Couple no availability with the lack of decent affordable motherboards and I'd say we've got a paper launch here folks. Let's take a look at the motherboards that support Core 2 Duo.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813131025
Available, but $270 bones. Waaaaaaaay to steep for this mobo. I think there's a bit of price gouging going on here...

http://www.anandtech.com/mb/showdoc.aspx?i=2797&p=4
Near as I can tell, this board does not exist. I challenge someone to find one that's in stock and for sale...

http://www.anandtech.com/mb/showdoc.aspx?i=2797&p=6
Same story, different mobo maker. This time Asus is the culprit. This board does not exist on Asus's website nor can I find it for sale anywhere.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813131028
Can't find this one either...

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813128323
Holy Taledo! $280?!?!

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813136168
Slightly less... $250. Probably a C2D Extreme buyer's best option. DFI rocks.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813127004&CMP=OTC-pr1c3watch&ATT=13-127-004
Much, much more affordable. But no dual PCI-16/8x.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813157092
At $60, this is affordable. But the low price tag comes with a cost. Only 2 DIMM slots and the legendary crappy name of ASRock.

Keep in mind, there are no SLI or CrossFire certified boards out there. There's plans for some, but they can't be had yet. I'd get into the memory issue, but I'm too tired to start with that. Only a handful of high end memory makers make PC2 8000 or 8500 memory. And it's all very expensive. So you're going to pay an arm and a leg for a 1066mhz FSB.

This is baffling to me because Intel has been previewing C2D for well over 5 months now. And it ain't like the i975X chipset is anything revolutionary. So why does availability suck? We didn't see this issue with LGA775 or AM2... did we? And I'm a little surprised nVidia didn't have a new Intel based chipset ready to roll... i'm hearing a new chipset won't be intro'd for another few weeks at the earliest!

All that being said, I'm still planning on buying a C2D. But for someone with the will and cash in hand, it's simply not possible. That equates to paper launch in my book.

Thoughts?

Jesse,


Please do not take this as an attack. It is not. I ordered a E6600 thursday. It shipped Friday. UPS ETA is this coming Friday. I used the 7-9 day ground shipping. I cant really speculate one way or the other as, for me, it has in fact not been a paper launch.

Peace

 

[noblekitty]

I'm going to be the first to say it: The Core 2 Duo platform is an elaborate paper launch. Maybe I'm jumping the gun a bit, but it's becoming very evident to most that the only Core 2 Duo to be had is the $1000+ Extreme version. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I haven't seen a single online retailer selling anything other than Extreme. I've seen pre-orders and "sold out" for the E6700, 6600, etc... but I know of no one who actually has one in hand or has had one shipped.

Check this out, it is the extreme edition is in back order but not the low end E6300:
http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/Special/Intel-landing-072706.jsp?intpromo=Intel_Core_2_072706_HPG

http://www.anandtech.com/mb/showdoc.aspx?i=2797&p=4
Near as I can tell, this board does not exist. I challenge someone to find one that's in stock and for sale...

I can pick up a dozen of these boards at my local retail Fry's, of course they wanted an arm and leg for it ( $279+tax).

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813131028
Can't find this one either...

oddly enough, your provided link shows that it is on sale and instock.

 

[noblekitty]

Only a handful of high end memory makers make PC2 8000 or 8500 memory. And it's all very expensive. So you're going to pay an arm and a leg for a 1066mhz FSB.

1066 is quad pump of 266, so you only need ddr2 that runs at 266 mhz ( 533 or PC2 4200) to run in sync.

 

[1Tanker]

Only a handful of high end memory makers make PC2 8000 or 8500 memory. And it's all very expensive. So you're going to pay an arm and a leg for a 1066mhz FSB.

1066 is quad pump of 266, so you only need ddr2 that runs at 266 mhz ( 533 or PC2 4200) to run in sync. :lol: mpjesse should be a fortune teller.

This one is going to draw some serious flameage...

 

[440bx]

This one is going to draw some serious flameage...

No flames but since you asked for corrections, here they are.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813131025
Available, but $270 bones. Waaaaaaaay to steep for this mobo. I think there's a bit of price gouging going on here...

Motherboards with similar features sell in that price range. There may be price gouging, that I wouldn't know but, it is *available*.

http://www.anandtech.com/mb/showdoc.aspx?i=2797&p=4
Near as I can tell, this board does not exist. I challenge someone to find one that's in stock and for sale......

As of Sunday morning, the following vendors show it as in stock, ready to sell and ship.

Buy.com http://www.buy.com/retail/product.asp?sku=202127488&SearchEngine=DealTime&SearchTerm=202127488&Type=PE&Category=Comp&Gad=0&dcaid=15891

TigerDirect http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/searchtools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=1766877&Sku=I69-2121&SRCCODE=SHOPPINGDF&CMP=OTC-SHOPPING

Another 3 vendors from Amazon marketplace show it in stock and ready to ship, here is the page,

Amazon Marketplace http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B000E85NWI/ref=dp_bb_a/102-9811025-9091338?ie=UTF8&redirect=true&condition=new%2F

http://www.anandtech.com/mb/showdoc.aspx?i=2797&p=6 Same story, different mobo maker. This time Asus is the culprit. This board does not exist on Asus's website nor can I find it for sale anywhere.

Newegg shows it in stock http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813131564&ATT=13-131-564&CMP=OTC-d3alt1me

TigerDirect shows it in stock http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/searchtools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=1766877&Sku=I69-2121&SRCCODE=SHOPPINGDF&CMP=OTC-SHOPPING

An additional three retailers here shows it in stock, http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B000BUI8CQ/ref=dp_bb_a/102-9811025-9091338?ie=UTF8&redirect=true&condition=new%2F

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813131028
Can't find this one either...

hmmmm... well... it is available at the link you provided. Look again!

That should take care of the motherboard availability issue. As far as the Conroe availability issue, others have already answered that eloquently so, no need to beat that dead horse.

As other pointed out, it's a brand new product (barely two days out and only one of those is a business day), I think your eagerness to buy one is affecting your otherwise good judgement.

Hope that helps, LOL.

 

[BaronMatrix]

I'm going to be the first to say it: The Core 2 Duo platform is an elaborate paper launch. Maybe I'm jumping the gun a bit, but it's becoming very evident to most that the only Core 2 Duo to be had is the $1000+ Extreme version. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I haven't seen a single online retailer selling anything other than Extreme. I've seen pre-orders and "sold out" for the E6700, 6600, etc... but I know of no one who actually has one in hand or has had one shipped.

I metioned this one day one and before and Iwas cursed for being anti-Intel. just tried to make the point that weeks before the launch I saw 7 mobos at Newegg at an average cost of $200.

In my mind that didn't bode well for availability. That is probably why sys builders have such long wait periods for systems. There are I believe 37 AM2 mobos at Newegg. I really couldn't understand why there were'nt more since Core 2 is such a great chip.The way it look snow retail 6600/6700 won't come around until the end of August or September because of the ratio to non-Core 2 chips being produced.

 

[BaronMatrix]

WOW! This is just horribly written post. It is ONLY the SECOND day it has been out! That does not say ANYTHING about a paper launch! You never heard anything about the AM2s because they didn't have any great performance and there wasn't much media about it, therefor no one was waiting for it. AMD is KNOWN for paper launches, not Intel. AMD used to released processors and it would take a MONTH to get their newest CPU, especially the top end. And you also dont include OEMs. If full computers with C2D are readily available within the first week, then you can not call it a paper launch.

The idea that this is a paper launch because you can't get a Conroe in the channel within 2 days of the launch is absurd!

Why can't people who support AMD be this protective and supportive?

 

[1Tanker]

WOW! This is just horribly written post. It is ONLY the SECOND day it has been out! That does not say ANYTHING about a paper launch! You never heard anything about the AM2s because they didn't have any great performance and there wasn't much media about it, therefor no one was waiting for it. AMD is KNOWN for paper launches, not Intel. AMD used to released processors and it would take a MONTH to get their newest CPU, especially the top end. And you also dont include OEMs. If full computers with C2D are readily available within the first week, then you can not call it a paper launch.

The idea that this is a paper launch because you can't get a Conroe in the channel within 2 days of the launch is absurd!

Why can't people who support AMD be this protective and supportive?Is it about being protective and supportive, or about having a double-standard?

 

[Weeble]

The impression given on these forums is that the majority of Intel fanboys (not all but most) write in sentences and can at least be bothered to look up references to back up their statements.

The most vocal AMD supporters have no trouble with outright lies and misinterpretation that looks not unlike the sort of fanaticism one normally associates with people who blow other people up.

You can therefore work out for yourself why 'AMD people' get a hard time.

Its mostly because of people like you.

People like you can't tell the difference between 'support' for technology and going to war.

You and the other people here like you actually make me embarrassed to own an AMD CPU.

Luckily I make my CPU choices based on performance (and helpful links provided by people who know things and who don't just have some stupid agenda) not on the fanboys associated with a particular product.

 

[BaronMatrix]

The impression given on these forums is that the majority of Intel fanboys (not all but most) write in sentences and can at least be bothered to look up references to back up their statements.

The most vocal AMD supporters have no trouble with outright lies and misinterpretation that looks not unlike the sort of fanaticism one normally associates with people who blow other people up.

You can therefore work out for yourself why 'AMD people' get a hard time.

Its mostly because of people like you.

People like you can't tell the difference between 'support' for technology and going to war.

You and the other people here like you actually make me embarrassed to own an AMD CPU.

Luckily I make my CPU choices based on performance (and helpful links provided by people who know things and who don't just have some stupid agenda) not on the fanboys associated with a particular product.

Good luck getting one. AMD people have outside lives and don't care THAT much. People don't like me because they are some kind of CPU zombies.

I'm about to make a new AMD/ATi post so you can hate me some more.

 

[Whizzard9992]

This thread needs some lockage.

The E6300 and the X6800 have shipped, with confirmation. The memory issue raised is completely incorrect, as someone already pointed out. Plus, there are $50 motherboards out there that support core 2 if you don't wanna dish out 2 c notes.

 

[xsandman]

On a different note --- I am not sure if many people are aware, but there is a 'packaging' substrate supply issue industry wide, ATI cited this as a reason for availability problems a quarter or two ago, other manufacturers are complaining of the same thing. So I am not sure the bottle neck is not enough chips have been fabbed or if they are simply waiting in line to be packaged.

Actually this is VERY true! There has been issues with substrates. And what is the best way to minimize the impact? Increase yields. If you have better yields, then you will throw away less packages. How can this be done without having an impact on quality? Simple: kill as many units as possible before they are packaged. This way you only package the units that are "expected" to yield the best once packaged. You may still be substrate constrained, but you are no longer wasting substrated on parts that do not have high yield.

 

[1Tanker]

On a different note --- I am not sure if many people are aware, but there is a 'packaging' substrate supply issue industry wide, ATI cited this as a reason for availability problems a quarter or two ago, other manufacturers are complaining of the same thing. So I am not sure the bottle neck is not enough chips have been fabbed or if they are simply waiting in line to be packaged.

Actually this is VERY true! There has been issues with substrates. And what is the best way to minimize the impact? Increase yields. If you have better yields, then you will throw away less packages. How can this be done without having an impact on quality? Simple: kill as many units as possible before they are packaged. This way you only package the units that are "expected" to yield the best once packaged. You may still be substrate constrained, but you are no longer wasting substrated on parts that do not have high yield.So, do Intel and AMD make their own substrates, or do other companies manufacture them? What i'm getting at is, if there's a shortage....do Intel/AMD have to fight over who gets the stock? :?

 

[Action_Man]

I metioned this one day one and before and Iwas cursed for being anti-Intel. just tried to make the point that weeks before the launch I saw 7 mobos at Newegg at an average cost of $200.

$180 BaronBS.

 

[xsandman]

On a different note --- I am not sure if many people are aware, but there is a 'packaging' substrate supply issue industry wide, ATI cited this as a reason for availability problems a quarter or two ago, other manufacturers are complaining of the same thing. So I am not sure the bottle neck is not enough chips have been fabbed or if they are simply waiting in line to be packaged.

Actually this is VERY true! There has been issues with substrates. And what is the best way to minimize the impact? Increase yields. If you have better yields, then you will throw away less packages. How can this be done without having an impact on quality? Simple: kill as many units as possible before they are packaged. This way you only package the units that are "expected" to yield the best once packaged. You may still be substrate constrained, but you are no longer wasting substrated on parts that do not have high yield.So, do Intel and AMD make their own substrates, or do other companies manufacture them? What i'm getting at is, if there's a shortage....do Intel/AMD have to fight over who gets the stock? :?

Other companies make the substrates. I am not sure if AMD and Intel have to fight over them or if they use the same companies, but they do not make their own substrates. And if they do use the same company, i am not sure if they have to fight over them considering AMD does not have nearly as much capacity as Intel does.