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Lasers - HP vs Other Brands (Image Transfer Units, etc.)

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Anonymous
a b α HP
June 2, 2005 10:50:22 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

I'm looking into purchasing a new printer.

Over time, I've tended to stick with HP lasers because they simply
never break (my experience - not a plug for HP.)

As I evaluate other brands, one thing I'm concerned about are the extra
consumables besides toner. In all the time I've owned HP's, I've never
replaced anything besides the rollers... and even those not that often.

I've noticed that other brands tend to have extras. For example, I've
been looking at the Samsung 510, a multi-function color laser that has
a great street price right now (under 300 after rebate). On first
glance, I don't know where I could go wrong. Color, multifunctin, AND
duplexing built in.

However, looking at the specs, I see that the printer also has an
Imaging Unit and a drum cartridge that have ratings at about 50,000
pages and a cost of 130 bucks. So... if something goes wrong, or if I
print a lot (which I do) - that 300 dollar price could go up and up
over time. Toner, I know I have to pay for - it's those extras I'm
trying to avoid. That sort of scares me and pushes me back toward HP.

Does anyone out there know the difference in architecture between HP
and the other brands? Does HP simply have a different design that
incorporates drum/transfer units in a different way? Are there other
brands that don't have consumable drums, etc that could cost more than
the printer?

And just to be clear - I am only interested in going with a laser. I
print a LOT of pages, and laser just makes more sense on the per-page
basis.

Thanks in advance.
Anonymous
a b α HP
June 2, 2005 11:51:10 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

scriptdude wrote:
> I'm looking into purchasing a new printer.
>
> Over time, I've tended to stick with HP lasers because they simply
> never break (my experience - not a plug for HP.)
FWIW, I've been pretty happy with my Lexmark Optra R+. After 10+ years
and 13178 prints, only the printhead has needed replacing. I was able
to do thay myself. My usage hasn't been very high on it, but it has
been in service for quite a while, with lots of power on/off cycles.

[...]
> Does anyone out there know the difference in architecture between HP
> and the other brands? Does HP simply have a different design that
> incorporates drum/transfer units in a different way? Are there other
> brands that don't have consumable drums, etc that could cost more than
> the printer?

Look at the paper path - some are more convoluted, which can limit your
choices of print media.
Color lasers have several differences in how the image is transferred
to the paper (single drum vs. four drum, the Xerox 7750 has an
accumulator belt).

Some manufacturers have a fairly good description of the consumables
and routine maintenance items. One example is Xerox - if you dig
through their support pages, you'll find information on how they expect
the toner, imaging units, accumulator belt, transfer roller, fuser,
belt cleaner, etc. to last. This might also give you things to
consider when looking at any color laser.

As another respondent said, consider how man prints/month the printer
was design for.

> And just to be clear - I am only interested in going with a laser. I
> print a LOT of pages, and laser just makes more sense on the per-page
> basis.
Have you ruled out the LED printers?

> Thanks in advance.
Anonymous
a b α HP
June 2, 2005 2:08:28 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

In article <1117720221.932028.299560@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
scriptdude <hudson1332@yahoo.com> wrote:
>I'm looking into purchasing a new printer.
>
>Over time, I've tended to stick with HP lasers because they simply
>never break (my experience - not a plug for HP.)
>
>As I evaluate other brands, one thing I'm concerned about are the extra
>consumables besides toner. In all the time I've owned HP's, I've never
>replaced anything besides the rollers... and even those not that often.
>
>I've noticed that other brands tend to have extras. For example, I've
>been looking at the Samsung 510, a multi-function color laser that has
>a great street price right now (under 300 after rebate). On first
>glance, I don't know where I could go wrong. Color, multifunctin, AND
>duplexing built in.
>
>However, looking at the specs, I see that the printer also has an
>Imaging Unit and a drum cartridge that have ratings at about 50,000
>pages and a cost of 130 bucks. So... if something goes wrong, or if I
>print a lot (which I do) - that 300 dollar price could go up and up
>over time. Toner, I know I have to pay for - it's those extras I'm
>trying to avoid. That sort of scares me and pushes me back toward HP.
>
>Does anyone out there know the difference in architecture between HP
>and the other brands? Does HP simply have a different design that
>incorporates drum/transfer units in a different way? Are there other
>brands that don't have consumable drums, etc that could cost more than
>the printer?
>
>And just to be clear - I am only interested in going with a laser. I
>print a LOT of pages, and laser just makes more sense on the per-page
>basis.
>
>Thanks in advance.
>


IME the HP and other color lasers all have a long list of consumables.

pay attention to the specs for pages/month when you select a
printer. If you exceed that on a regular basis it's like you will be
unhappy with your purchase.

Read the wrranty. The warranty on Low-end printers is
replacement-only. They don't repair them and they don't have to
replace it with the same model. I wouldn't buy a business printer
with that warranty. It means that if you stock spares for consumables
and your printer breaks you're out of luck if the model they replace
it with uses different parts.






--
a d y k e s @ p a n i x . c o m

Don't blame me. I voted for Gore.
Related resources
Anonymous
a b α HP
June 2, 2005 3:59:30 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

In addition to your research on consumables, I'd recommend you get
print samples from all of the printers you're considering. The Samsung
printers, for example, while having 1200dpi print quality, have a dull
matte result which some people don't care for (others seem to prefer
it).

www.druckerchannel.de has good reviews on quite a few colour laser
printers. They print thousands of pages and then calculate the true
cost per page with all the consumables taken into account. It's a very
good site for printer research (don't forget to use babelfish!). See
http://www.druckerchannel.de/device_table.php -- the printers which
have a comment next to their name have been reviewed.
June 3, 2005 4:49:50 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

All laser printers work in a very similar way, the components all have to be
there one way or another and there are certain parts that wear out.
Image drums
transfer rollers or belts,
Fusing (fixing) units.
Pick up rollers and separation pads

Some colour lasers have very expensive consumables and some do not, some have
multiple drums and some have one. Some toners have drums built in and some
don't. So the calculation is complex.
I suggest you ask the suppliers for the cost to print per page over, say
100,000 pages for each printer you are looking at excluding paper cost. The
cost per page should include all routine replacement items. These costs are
often available on the manufacturers websites.
(BTW HP lasers all need the fuser, transfer roller etcetera to be replaced
during their life just like other manufacturers.)
The problem is that each printer is specified differently, an image transfer
unit may be rated at 10,000 pages or 350,000 pages depending on the design
criteria and target market.
So cost per page is the best way to compare apples with apples. Also ensure the
page cover they quote (usually 5%) is the same in each case, if it is not you
can extrapolate (a 4% cover cost multiplied by 1.25 equals a 5% cover).
Lastly ask whether the consumables (image unit, transfer roller/belt, pick up
rollers/separation pads, fuser/fixing unit) are user replaceable or do you have
to pay someone to do it!
Other criteria which may be important: Are you going to print labels (flat
paper paths are best)? Banner printing? Warm up time, some colour printers warm
up much faster than others (carousel models are often slower to warm up). These
may not be important to you of course.
Tony



"scriptdude" <hudson1332@yahoo.com> wrote:
>I'm looking into purchasing a new printer.
>
>Over time, I've tended to stick with HP lasers because they simply
>never break (my experience - not a plug for HP.)
>
>As I evaluate other brands, one thing I'm concerned about are the extra
>consumables besides toner. In all the time I've owned HP's, I've never
>replaced anything besides the rollers... and even those not that often.
>
>I've noticed that other brands tend to have extras. For example, I've
>been looking at the Samsung 510, a multi-function color laser that has
>a great street price right now (under 300 after rebate). On first
>glance, I don't know where I could go wrong. Color, multifunctin, AND
>duplexing built in.
>
>However, looking at the specs, I see that the printer also has an
>Imaging Unit and a drum cartridge that have ratings at about 50,000
>pages and a cost of 130 bucks. So... if something goes wrong, or if I
>print a lot (which I do) - that 300 dollar price could go up and up
>over time. Toner, I know I have to pay for - it's those extras I'm
>trying to avoid. That sort of scares me and pushes me back toward HP.
>
>Does anyone out there know the difference in architecture between HP
>and the other brands? Does HP simply have a different design that
>incorporates drum/transfer units in a different way? Are there other
>brands that don't have consumable drums, etc that could cost more than
>the printer?
>
>And just to be clear - I am only interested in going with a laser. I
>print a LOT of pages, and laser just makes more sense on the per-page
>basis.
>
>Thanks in advance.
>
June 3, 2005 2:45:11 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

In message <1117723870.296945.143900@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
gnewsremove1@uugw.hifn.com writes
>FWIW, I've been pretty happy with my Lexmark Optra R+. After 10+ years
>and 13178 prints, only the printhead has needed replacing. I was able
>to do thay myself. My usage hasn't been very high on it, but it has
>been in service for quite a while, with lots of power on/off cycles.

Its odd Lexmark seem to manage quite decent lasers but the inkjets arent
much to get excited about. The only Xerox inkjet I had wasn't much cop
either - it didn't get much use and got bunged up beyond economic
repair, but their lasers are pretty decent.

If you want something without too much fiddling about you may want to
consider Xerox's Phaser 8400 as it now is and Kyocera's machines the
Kyocera you are looking at a larger initial cost but less intervention
and lower running costs.

--
Timothy
Anonymous
a b α HP
June 3, 2005 7:11:42 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

Laser technology is very varied in how it is administered.

What you need to know is that there are three main components.


An imaging drum or belt that is sensitive to light and electrostatic charges

A powdered toner that is transferred to the drum or belt and then
transferred to the paper and melted onto the paper surface.

Usually, some type of "developer" which is magnetic and serves to
distribute the toner to the drum. This material may be integrated as
part of the toner, or may not be used at all in some designs.

I am not familiar with HP color laser printers enough to be sure about
how they operate, but I will make some guesses overall.

Color laser printers add considerable complexity to the process. The
theory is all the same, but each print requires 4 cycles adding the four
color toners down (CMYK). There are a number of ways this can be
accomplished. Some send the paper through four completely separate sets
of drum units each transferring the toner powders onto it and then at
the end it is sent through a fuser to melt it all onto the paper
surface, some transfer the 4 toners onto a belt and only then is it
transferred to the paper and fused onto it. Some move the drums around
and leave the paper stationary as the colored toner is transferred to
the paper.

Therefore each system has differing amount of consumables.

With black and white printers, HP/Canon developed a system with a self
contained cartridge which contained the drum unit, and a mixed
developer/toner, and a magnetic roller which helped to distribute the
toner. This whole unit was replaced/tossed refilled when it ran out of
toner/developer mix, as a unit. This is a very convenient but costly
approach because the truth is the drums are usually good for several
toner refills. On systems that use independent developer and toner,
very little of the developer is consumed and it is good for numerous
toner refills before it needs to be replaced. Some printer have gone to
using no toner at all and just using an electrostatic plastic that holds
the toner for distribution to the drum or paper.

Two truths:

1) Color laser printers, like color inkjet printers are being sold
extremely cheaply with the assumption the money will be made up on
refilling consumables. Therefore, the consumables will be made as
proprietary as possible, and will be evry costly. Often one replacement
of the consumables with be as costly as the whole printer when bought new.

However, watch out, most color laser printers come with "starter or
economy cartridges" meaning their yields will be considerably less than
the replacement cartridge, or the replacement will come in two versions,
the same as the initial version OR one that provided 2-4 times greater
yield for only a few dollars more than the partially filled one, like
that which the printer arrived with. Other consumables include, image
drum(s) or bent and fuser oil, which is used to help keep the paper from
sticking to the usually teflon coated fuser drum which heats.

2) Generally models that make it convenient by having a whole cartridge
unit removable for replacement rather than the component parts which
tend to run down at different duty cycles, will be more costly overall
to maintain. Models that allow each part to be replaced based upon its
likely lifespan will cost less, but parts may be more difficult to find,
especially as years go by.

In order to really know running costs you have to get on the company's
web pages and look at how long consumable are designed to last, which
they cost and so on. It's a bit tricky with color laser.

Other considerations are : start up time for first print, time per print
after first, cost of extra memory, whcihmay not be standard computer
memeory, cost of paper tray if a larger on is required.



scriptdude wrote:

> I'm looking into purchasing a new printer.
>
> Over time, I've tended to stick with HP lasers because they simply
> never break (my experience - not a plug for HP.)
>
> As I evaluate other brands, one thing I'm concerned about are the extra
> consumables besides toner. In all the time I've owned HP's, I've never
> replaced anything besides the rollers... and even those not that often.
>
> I've noticed that other brands tend to have extras. For example, I've
> been looking at the Samsung 510, a multi-function color laser that has
> a great street price right now (under 300 after rebate). On first
> glance, I don't know where I could go wrong. Color, multifunctin, AND
> duplexing built in.
>
> However, looking at the specs, I see that the printer also has an
> Imaging Unit and a drum cartridge that have ratings at about 50,000
> pages and a cost of 130 bucks. So... if something goes wrong, or if I
> print a lot (which I do) - that 300 dollar price could go up and up
> over time. Toner, I know I have to pay for - it's those extras I'm
> trying to avoid. That sort of scares me and pushes me back toward HP.
>
> Does anyone out there know the difference in architecture between HP
> and the other brands? Does HP simply have a different design that
> incorporates drum/transfer units in a different way? Are there other
> brands that don't have consumable drums, etc that could cost more than
> the printer?
>
> And just to be clear - I am only interested in going with a laser. I
> print a LOT of pages, and laser just makes more sense on the per-page
> basis.
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
June 3, 2005 8:49:28 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

In message <Oq_ne.1562854$6l.561870@pd7tw2no>, Arthur Entlich
<e-printerhelp@mvps.org> writes
>Laser technology is very varied in how it is administered.
>
IIRC my QMS 2200 had the following things:
The four toner cartridges, the black one lasted about 4,500 pages the
colours about 10,000. A Fuser oil roller ad an opc drum kit which both
lasted around 15,000 and finally a transfer unit and transfer belt by
the time it was time to change these with the cost I replaced it
instead.


--
Timothy
!