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AMD / INTEL unfair benchmarks???

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  • Intel
  • AMD
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August 2, 2006 1:50:13 PM

They test .13 micron Athlon 2400+ with .9 micron Pentium 4 2800 MHz. because they say AMD do not have a latest processor. Of course we buy best in the market.
They test Pentium 4 3.2 GHz with AMD Athlon 64 FX-62/4800+/5800+ (which has on chip memory controller) and say “huh Intel suks”
Because P4 3.2 GHz is the best intel one. Isn’t it unfair? They both have good sides and bad sides.

Then they test .65 micron core 2 duo with .9 micron Athlon 64 FX-62.
Hmm AMD suks. And they do not have a rode map for a new processor for next 1 year.

Yah ppl get late all the time.
AMD took more than 1 year to build their Great “Athlon” while intel was already running P!!!.
Then intel release P4 to beat Athlon. Hmm after two years. Then came Athlon 64 with go beyond wildest P4. then came Core 2 duo. Next what.. AMD K-10

This is my point. We all beat out opponent over time. It is just a matter of time they do to same to us. We ( we and opposite) have our own methods to beat other, we may on separate paths, but we do what we need.

GET WHAT BEST FOR U. SOMETHING U CAN USE GOOD TIME FOR “UR” MONEY.

Buy what u like. What u need. It may be not the best comparing to others ideas. But it is what you like.
Do not ask around “hey what is best”?.. if this happens in the past, humans may never in the place now. We learn from our mistakes. We give our knowledge to younger generation. This is why we have books.
Do not ask, learn urself. Ppl who change the world never asked “hey papa how we do this”, they learn themselves.

“Arm with knowledge best u can, before u ask, criticize”

AMD FANBOY:

I love AMD, I’m using AMD since AMD 486, I love ATi.
Because they release quality products, which has a value for the price we pay.
I do not have money to offer (I’m in Sri Lanka and still a student) to buy a Athlon 64 or a P4EE (but I read lot). So I try plain Athlon Xp. It is a killer for its price. So do the Sempron. Where is Celeron? Hellooooooooo?
And a Celeron can beet a Sempron with same performance rating.
AMD little people.

I think the people who enter battle last with good force win it. Because others may ran out of ammo. But be aware it may be a trick.
Ex: Who brings the performance rating, on speed? Mm I think AMD did?
Now Intel Doing it Better?
What next from AMD. A 16 core CPU with on chip 16 GPU cores (one for one) for $2000.
I love to see Intel fan boys eyes if this happen.
“I wish on AMD to follow our Dreams”
Haha.



Why bother to buy a computer.
Build a game u like in your mind. Play it on mind. U can mod it while playing as ur wish. Coz it is lot fast and good for ur mind.
Benchmark each others brain. Everyone himself/herself good at something. Most of the time they do not go on their best path.
This is same to the CPUs.

We buy big, heavy, expensive things. Because we need to satisfy ourselves. Comparing to others. But do not do that.

More about : amd intel unfair benchmarks

August 2, 2006 1:52:34 PM

Okkkkkaaaaay

(backs slowly away)
August 2, 2006 2:01:32 PM

Quote:
They test .13 micron Athlon 2400+ with .9 micron Pentium 4 2800 MHz. because they say AMD do not have a latest processor. Of course we buy best in the market.
They test Pentium 4 3.2 GHz with AMD Athlon 64 FX-62/4800+/5800+ (which has on chip memory controller) and say “huh Intel suks”
Because P4 3.2 GHz is the best intel one. Isn’t it unfair? They both have good sides and bad sides.

Then they test .65 micron core 2 duo with .9 micron Athlon 64 FX-62.
Hmm AMD suks. And they do not have a rode map for a new processor for next 1 year.

Yah ppl get late all the time.
AMD took more than 1 year to build their Great “Athlon” while intel was already running P!!!.
Then intel release P4 to beat Athlon. Hmm after two years. Then came Athlon 64 with go beyond wildest P4. then came Core 2 duo. Next what.. AMD K-10

This is my point. We all beat out opponent over time. It is just a matter of time they do to same to us. We ( we and opposite) have our own methods to beat other, we may on separate paths, but we do what we need.

GET WHAT BEST FOR U. SOMETHING U CAN USE GOOD TIME FOR “UR” MONEY.

Buy what u like. What u need. It may be not the best comparing to others ideas. But it is what you like.
Do not ask around “hey what is best”?.. if this happens in the past, humans may never in the place now. We learn from our mistakes. We give our knowledge to younger generation. This is why we have books.
Do not ask, learn urself. Ppl who change the world never asked “hey papa how we do this”, they learn themselves.

“Arm with knowledge best u can, before u ask, criticize”

AMD FANBOY:

I love AMD, I’m using AMD since AMD 486, I love ATi.
Because they release quality products, which has a value for the price we pay.
I do not have money to offer (I’m in Sri Lanka and still a student) to buy a Athlon 64 or a P4EE (but I read lot). So I try plain Athlon Xp. It is a killer for its price. So do the Sempron. Where is Celeron? Hellooooooooo?
And a Celeron can beet a Sempron with same performance rating.
AMD little people.

I think the people who enter battle last with good force win it. Because others may ran out of ammo. But be aware it may be a trick.
Ex: Who brings the performance rating, on speed? Mm I think AMD did?
Now Intel Doing it Better?
What next from AMD. A 16 core CPU with on chip 16 GPU cores (one for one) for $2000.
I love to see Intel fan boys eyes if this happen.
“I wish on AMD to follow our Dreams”
Haha.



Why bother to buy a computer.
Build a game u like in your mind. Play it on mind. U can mod it while playing as ur wish. Coz it is lot fast and good for ur mind.
Benchmark each others brain. Everyone himself/herself good at something. Most of the time they do not go on their best path.
This is same to the CPUs.

We buy big, heavy, expensive things. Because we need to satisfy ourselves. Comparing to others. But do not do that.


People who have changed the world have often learned from others whether directly or by reviewing their mistakes. Groundbreaking leaders took instruction and inspiration from others, scientists often built on the work of others before them. There is no reason for people not to ask questions of those better informed than themselves other than a wish to remain wholly ignorant of anyones position but their own. Some of the most ignorant people on this forum alone are the ones convinced that only there version of the 'truth' has any merit or value. The issue for people who make a difference is not that they did not ask the question but that they challenged the answer.

In any case while I agree people should buy whatever they like I don't think benchmarks are 'unfair'. mostly because silicon is not human, it has no emotion and it requires no emotional consideration. Benchmarking CPU's isn't like playing in the playground, its simply judging what each company proclaims as best performing at that time against what is claimed by another. Its interesting that some fans of AMD call this 'unfair'..it seems to me its simply something you can ignore if it bugs you that much.

If technology companies move at different speeds their respective outputs are going to be relative in development when compared, this in turn as things move on again will swing the pendulum from one to another..is it 'fair'? Who really cares, it is life.

As for the idea that people should not buy a PC but instead play games in their heads I am sure that's very laudable as a sentiment but as this is a hardware forum I fear people are interested in PC's and quite want to own one. Additionally, thought it might come as a surprise, some people here don't use PC's just for playing games and running e-manhood benchmarks but actually for work and education where speed and capacity make a difference to more than which 'noob' you can own in a random shooter.
Related resources
August 2, 2006 2:04:42 PM

Post deleted by author. It was moderately insulting. Apologies.....
August 2, 2006 2:06:56 PM

people always settle for the best stuff especially if they have the money othewise they have to go within their budget,,, best is always better than anything (KEEP THAT IN YOUR MIND),,, is like buying car,,, why buy a geo metro if you can but a mustang,,, they have the same purpose isn't it,,, so, before you say anything try to be true to your self....
August 2, 2006 2:12:54 PM

Ok, let's compare a 65nm Core 2 Duo to a 65nm AMD Athlon X2:

Oh wait, AMD's manufacturing process isn't as ADVANCED as Intel's!

Fanboy 0wned.


P.S. - I'd stick to replying to threads for now.
August 2, 2006 2:15:27 PM

Quote:
Ok, let's compare a 65nm Core 2 Duo to a 65nm AMD Athlon X2:

Oh wait, AMD's manufacturing process isn't as ADVANCED as Intel's!

Fanboy 0wned.


AMD fanboys= FAIL
August 2, 2006 2:15:38 PM

Quote:
For someone using the handle "King Solomon" I didn't find much wisdom in your post at all. Sorry.

We're all wasting time caring about AMD's and Intel's business, analyzing and making predictions while we should just use those dam CPUs, read benchmarks and draw our own conclusions. I think nobody here is really wise :lol: 

Talking about this topisc; The whole crap of this world is unfair, not surprised about CPU industry. We all got to survive.
August 2, 2006 2:18:41 PM

Quote:
They test .13 micron Athlon 2400+ with .9 micron Pentium 4 2800 MHz. because they say AMD do not have a latest processor. Of course we buy best in the market.
They test Pentium 4 3.2 GHz with AMD Athlon 64 FX-62/4800+/5800+ (which has on chip memory controller) and say “huh Intel suks”
Because P4 3.2 GHz is the best intel one. Isn’t it unfair? They both have good sides and bad sides.

Then they test .65 micron core 2 duo with .9 micron Athlon 64 FX-62.
Hmm AMD suks. And they do not have a rode map for a new processor for next 1 year.

Yah ppl get late all the time.
AMD took more than 1 year to build their Great “Athlon” while intel was already running P!!!.
Then intel release P4 to beat Athlon. Hmm after two years. Then came Athlon 64 with go beyond wildest P4. then came Core 2 duo. Next what.. AMD K-10

This is my point. We all beat out opponent over time. It is just a matter of time they do to same to us. We ( we and opposite) have our own methods to beat other, we may on separate paths, but we do what we need.

GET WHAT BEST FOR U. SOMETHING U CAN USE GOOD TIME FOR “UR” MONEY.

Buy what u like. What u need. It may be not the best comparing to others ideas. But it is what you like.
Do not ask around “hey what is best”?.. if this happens in the past, humans may never in the place now. We learn from our mistakes. We give our knowledge to younger generation. This is why we have books.
Do not ask, learn urself. Ppl who change the world never asked “hey papa how we do this”, they learn themselves.

“Arm with knowledge best u can, before u ask, criticize”

AMD FANBOY:

I love AMD, I’m using AMD since AMD 486, I love ATi.
Because they release quality products, which has a value for the price we pay.
I do not have money to offer (I’m in Sri Lanka and still a student) to buy a Athlon 64 or a P4EE (but I read lot). So I try plain Athlon Xp. It is a killer for its price. So do the Sempron. Where is Celeron? Hellooooooooo?
And a Celeron can beet a Sempron with same performance rating.
AMD little people.

I think the people who enter battle last with good force win it. Because others may ran out of ammo. But be aware it may be a trick.
Ex: Who brings the performance rating, on speed? Mm I think AMD did?
Now Intel Doing it Better?
What next from AMD. A 16 core CPU with on chip 16 GPU cores (one for one) for $2000.
I love to see Intel fan boys eyes if this happen.
“I wish on AMD to follow our Dreams”
Haha.



Why bother to buy a computer.
Build a game u like in your mind. Play it on mind. U can mod it while playing as ur wish. Coz it is lot fast and good for ur mind.
Benchmark each others brain. Everyone himself/herself good at something. Most of the time they do not go on their best path.
This is same to the CPUs.

We buy big, heavy, expensive things. Because we need to satisfy ourselves. Comparing to others. But do not do that.


You really have time to type all those gibberish? Man, you don't compare unknown products, you compare the current products. And currently it is FX-62 and Core 2 Xtreme X6800. I think you need to seek help AMD fanboy...
August 2, 2006 2:22:33 PM

Quote:
Man, you don't compare unknown products, you compare the current products. And currently it is FX-62 and Core 2 Xtreme X6800.


Right on. Compare current offerings that are in the same general price range.
August 2, 2006 2:29:34 PM

Quote:

You really have time to type all those gibberish? Man, you don't compare unknown products, you compare the current products. And currently it is FX-62 and Core 2 Xtreme X6800. I think you need to seek help AMD fanboy...


We're all fanboys; some are moderate, some are not, some have their reasons others have none. For one thing I am sure though; you're more an Intel fanboy than he's an AMD as he didn't state anything clear.
August 2, 2006 4:21:10 PM

Quote:
Okkkkkaaaaay

(backs slowly away)


*runs away*
August 2, 2006 5:06:12 PM

MY GIGAWATZ IS FASTER THEN YUR GIGAWATZ!
August 2, 2006 5:09:22 PM

Quote:
MY GIGAWATZ IS FASTER THEN YUR GIGAWATZ!


that just fails man... lol jk ;)  MY GIGAWATZ PWNZORIZES ALL GIGAWATZ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
August 2, 2006 5:34:11 PM

I'm with Abyss.... (slowly walking away). Spooky....
August 2, 2006 5:53:25 PM

how is that unfair benchmarking? We use benchmarks to compare processors. We know amd is behind. Amd will catch up and possibly get ahead of intel. It happens all the time. Intel got ahead with its pentium 3. Amd got ahead with its athlonxp and 64. The cycle repeats itself and so on and so on. So how does this have anything to do with unfair when we are just comparing 2 different processors?
August 2, 2006 6:01:01 PM

Quote:
people always settle for the best stuff especially if they have the money othewise they have to go within their budget,,, best is always better than anything (KEEP THAT IN YOUR MIND),,, is like buying car,,, why buy a geo metro if you can but a mustang,,, they have the same purpose isn't it,,, so, before you say anything try to be true to your self....


i know this is WAY off topic...but are u sayin that a mustang is the best?because thats just silly
August 2, 2006 6:10:26 PM

Looks like this is another fanboy thread :oops:  Went nowhere....
August 2, 2006 6:10:33 PM

Quote:
i know this is WAY off topic...but are u sayin that a mustang is the best?because thats just silly


My 2001 Pontiac Grand Am SE (2.4L 150hp) pwns you all!



I, TechnologyCoordinator, hereby hijack this thread in the name of automotive chat.
August 2, 2006 6:12:34 PM

My MazdaSpeed 6 pwns all u ferrari drivers.
August 2, 2006 6:23:55 PM

I like my Subaru Impreza WRX wagon :D  Its fast, practical (you can stick a bunch of stuff in it), and when I drive it like a sane person I get good milage on it... too bad it takes premium. I have a bike too.

So are computers with more "Emm Bees" (MBs) faster or slower?? :wink:

-mcg
a c 87 à CPUs
a b À AMD
August 2, 2006 6:34:35 PM

I also don't understand why the manufacturing process matters. I would a good 90nm process could kick the crap out of a 65nm process. Its just the size of the transistors, it speaks nothing about design, logic, etc.

Quote:
Do not ask around “hey what is best”?..


Why not? If your going to buy a computer, do you not want the best??? If I'm going to spend ~$175 on a chip, do I want the x2 4200, or the 6300? If considering only performance of the chip, I should get the 6300, as it is faster. Why should I spend the same amount of money on something slower? (You need to factor other things in, like more expsensive motherboards, or lack of SLI support in Intel motherboards.) Buying what you like is called brand loyalty. (from my econ classes, around here they call it fanboyism.) It isn't bad per se, but it can cause you to buy a lower performing product.
I also don't see a problem with asking people what is better/best. There are three types of people in this world. The dumb ones who can't/don't learn from their own mistakes. The "normal" ones who do learn from their own mistakes, and the last, the smart ones who learn from other peoples mistakes. There is nothing wrong with trying to be a smart person and ask "whats the best I can do with $xxxx?"
August 2, 2006 6:44:04 PM

This post scared me..... uni-bomber came to mind as I was reading.
August 2, 2006 6:45:18 PM

:trophy: Most incoherent post of the day! :trophy:
August 2, 2006 6:46:26 PM

Quote:
:trophy: Most incoherent post of the day! :trophy:

Agree :lol: 
August 2, 2006 6:50:25 PM

come on guys!! just get the ...... over it!!! both to intel and amd fanboyz!!!

THG has pages after pages, benchmarks atfer benchmarks, stress test reviews after the other, were amd performance trashed intel especially with the 64-fx edition........

now the page has flipped and intel are beating amd with there c2d!!! just get over it to both sides.

THIS IS F***EN BUSINESS AND COMPETITION !!!

And i'm optimistic that now amd will produce another cpu which will be better than the c2d which amd once again will get performance leadership. and defenatly intel will come up with something better to re-obtain their performance leader ship
August 2, 2006 6:51:45 PM

Quote:
how is that unfair benchmarking? We use benchmarks to compare processors. We know amd is behind. Amd will catch up and possibly get ahead of intel. It happens all the time. Intel got ahead with its pentium 3. Amd got ahead with its athlonxp and 64. The cycle repeats itself and so on and so on. So how does this have anything to do with unfair when we are just comparing 2 different processors?


The problem is the "bennchmarks" used by the enthusiast press are garbage and subject to manipulation. ANSI/ASTM have written testing proceedures that all legitmate testers are required to follow. In 1988, the Standard Performance Evaluation Comittee (now Corporation)http://www.spec.org/spec/ was formed for the purpose of

"The goal of SPEC is to ensure that the marketplace has a fair and useful set of metrics to differentiate candidate systems."

What I find interesting and disgusting is that the enthusiast press when questioned about why they don't use these standards, which are the ISO9001 standards, excuse themselves by saying that that is not what their readers are interested in. What the enthusiast press is saying we aren't going to comply because doing so will eliminate our ablity to manipulate the results in favor of the person who paid us to run the comparasion.. The testing results you see posted across the enthusiast press, including here at Tom's, are what is commonly called "Junk Science". Not a single test in the enthusiast press is done in accordance with ACCEPTED testing proceedures. There is a legal definition of "accepted" that means following the ANSI/ASTM guidelines and the press benchmarks don't meet it. So don't quibble about what accepted means.
August 2, 2006 6:54:44 PM

Quote:
Oh yea??? My tricycle PWNZ jh00 all!!!!


That's not a basket on the front of his trike boys.... that's ground effects... helps with the traction since he has front wheel drive.

lol
August 2, 2006 7:00:16 PM

Its true, when it takes this long to develop technology there is going to be at least 1 to 2 years for the competitor to catch up when they have to go back to the drawing board.

Its not fanboyism to say that in a couple years its more than likely that AMD will beat out Core 2. Thats just the nature of competition. I think thats what this guy was trying to say in a misspelled, gramatically horrendous way.

Hopefully, Intel or AMD will make another huge leap in processing efficiency like the Core2 in a couple years or less...as for who, I could care less.
August 2, 2006 7:07:46 PM

Quote:
We buy big, heavy, expensive things. Because we need to satisfy ourselves. Comparing to others. But do not do that.


Are you Buddhist? :trophy:
August 2, 2006 7:13:26 PM

Quote:
Oh yea??? My tricycle PWNZ jh00 all!!!!



ah the glory days of riding the tricycle while standing up instead of pedaling the stupid thing.

My big wheel pwnz your tricycle! :twisted:
August 2, 2006 7:28:07 PM

OP there are a few things missing from your post, the one thing I was searching for was a point. I read all the way up until you started talking about playing video games in your mind. At that point, i decided to use my mind for something better, and through the dark hole of spacetime, I sent you a bitchslap. Sorry, but i felt someone had to do it.

People ask which component is better because they want the best bang for their buck. People hate being ripped off. You say you read alot, but you offer little evidence to support your claim. No numbers, just a bunch of discombobulated thoughts, that never actually made a point. People like those numbers so they can compare things and make an informed decision. Quite a few people here in this forum are willing to jump in and be a gunea pig, and then come out and say "this [component] sucks because ....." or "this [component] ROCKS because....." and my hat goes off to all of them.

My point, which I took a while to get to is that you need to back up what you are saying with some data that proves your point, or dont bother trying to give "technical" advice at all.

But then what do i know, Im just a chicken.
August 2, 2006 7:30:56 PM

Quote:
OP there are a few things missing from your post, the one thing I was searching for was a point. I read all the way up until you started talking about playing video games in your mind. At that point, i decided to use my mind for something better, and through the dark hole of spacetime, I sent you a bitchslap. Sorry, but i felt someone had to do it.

People ask which component is better because they want the best bang for their buck. People hate being ripped off. You say you read alot, but you offer little evidence to support your claim. No numbers, just a bunch of discombobulated thoughts, that never actually made a point. People like those numbers so they can compare things and make an informed decision. Quite a few people here in this forum are willing to jump in and be a gunea pig, and then come out and say "this [component] sucks because ....." or "this [component] ROCKS because....." and my hat goes off to all of them.

My point, which I took a while to get to is that you need to back up what you are saying with some data that proves your point, or dont bother trying to give "technical" advice at all.

But then what do i know, Im just a chicken.


:lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :!:
August 2, 2006 7:36:10 PM

Quote:
i know this is WAY off topic...but are u sayin that a mustang is the best?because thats just silly


My 2001 Pontiac Grand Am SE (2.4L 150hp) pwns you all!



I, TechnologyCoordinator, hereby hijack this thread in the name of automotive chat.
nah.. bruce wayne's batmobile pwns you all... all he has to do is roll over your cars.

you drive fast? heck he flies fast!!! XD

wondering how much is it going to cost me for that car...

of course, the batmobile is no adversary for the godalmighty prozac's tricycle... hands down, he just pwns us all
August 2, 2006 7:40:03 PM

Quote:
i know this is WAY off topic...but are u sayin that a mustang is the best?because thats just silly


My 2001 Pontiac Grand Am SE (2.4L 150hp) pwns you all!



I, TechnologyCoordinator, hereby hijack this thread in the name of automotive chat.
nah.. bruce wayne's batmobile pwns you all... all he has to do is roll over your cars.

you drive fast? heck he flies fast!!! XD

wondering how much is it going to cost me for that car...

of course, the batmobile is no adversary for the godalmighty prozac's tricycle... hands down, he just pwns us all

NAW! walking ftw
August 2, 2006 7:54:27 PM

Quote:
Its true, when it takes this long to develop technology there is going to be at least 1 to 2 years for the competitor to catch up when they have to go back to the drawing board.

Its not fanboyism to say that in a couple years its more than likely that AMD will beat out Core 2. Thats just the nature of competition. I think thats what this guy was trying to say in a misspelled, gramatically horrendous way.

Hopefully, Intel or AMD will make another huge leap in processing efficiency like the Core2 in a couple years or less...as for who, I could care less.



thanks "TheTallGuy" for geting my piont
August 2, 2006 8:06:41 PM

Cigaro
August 2, 2006 8:35:52 PM

Quote:
how is that unfair benchmarking? We use benchmarks to compare processors. We know amd is behind. Amd will catch up and possibly get ahead of intel. It happens all the time. Intel got ahead with its pentium 3. Amd got ahead with its athlonxp and 64. The cycle repeats itself and so on and so on. So how does this have anything to do with unfair when we are just comparing 2 different processors?


The problem is the "bennchmarks" used by the enthusiast press are garbage and subject to manipulation. ANSI/ASTM have written testing proceedures that all legitmate testers are required to follow. In 1988, the Standard Performance Evaluation Comittee (now Corporation)http://www.spec.org/spec/ was formed for the purpose of

"The goal of SPEC is to ensure that the marketplace has a fair and useful set of metrics to differentiate candidate systems."

What I find interesting and disgusting is that the enthusiast press when questioned about why they don't use these standards, which are the ISO9001 standards, excuse themselves by saying that that is not what their readers are interested in. What the enthusiast press is saying we aren't going to comply because doing so will eliminate our ablity to manipulate the results in favor of the person who paid us to run the comparasion.. The testing results you see posted across the enthusiast press, including here at Tom's, are what is commonly called "Junk Science". Not a single test in the enthusiast press is done in accordance with ACCEPTED testing proceedures. There is a legal definition of "accepted" that means following the ANSI/ASTM guidelines and the press benchmarks don't meet it. So don't quibble about what accepted means.

What you're asking review sites to use is more for business apps and companies, not for consumers.

I mean, SPEC might work for the person wanting to upgrade his/her workstation, but not for Joe Computer Builder who wants to build a kick ass gaming rig. I mean, why do I need to know how fast my computer can run Maya, when I just want to see F.E.A.R. run smoothly? Or do I need to know my system's CAD capablity, when I just want Oblivion to run good? And does this SPEC use everyday programs like LameMP3 or video encoding?

I don't doubt that there is a standardize benchmark, but those might be more for server environment, and not so much for desktops.
August 2, 2006 8:39:16 PM

Quote:
They test .13 micron Athlon 2400+ with .9 micron Pentium 4 2800 MHz.

Then they test .65 micron core 2 duo with .9 micron Athlon 64 FX-62.


I think you need to have a good look at your units!! :lol: 
August 2, 2006 8:54:14 PM

Regarding the question of micron sizing:

For a simple chained inverter, a good estimate fall time is (2.5 to approx for velocity saturation)

W - width of transistor
L - length of transistor - 2 lambda
un - carrier mobility nmos
Cox - capacitance/area of the poly
Vtn - nmos threshold voltage

tdf = 1.2 * 2.5 / (un Cox (W/L) ( Vdd - Vtn) ) * W * L * Cox

by decreasing L, the rise and fall time of the logic gates increases.

the maximum frequency at which you can clock a circuit depends on the maximum propagation delay between two flip flops, clock skew, hold time and set up time.

Tsu + Tprop + Tcq = setup time + propagation delay + clock to q = minimum period = 1/f where f is the maximum frequency of the circuit

Decreasing L reduces propagation delay, setup time, and clock to q.
the derivation for prop day and clock to q depends on the design of the flip flop.

In addition to these effects, power dissipated by a gate can be calculated as follows

P = alpha * f * C * Vdd^2.

alpha is the activity factor, f is the frequency, C is the capacitance of the gate.

When L is reduced, the capacitance is reduced. Lower L implies that the circuit is operated at a lower Vdd as well, hence a quadratic decrease in power dissipation. Reduced power means the chip designers have flexibility to put more logic on the chip.
August 2, 2006 8:56:53 PM

8O :roll:
August 2, 2006 9:02:52 PM

Quote:
Regarding the question of micron sizing:

For a simple chained inverter, a good estimate fall time is (2.5 to approx for velocity saturation)

W - width of transistor
L - length of transistor - 2 lambda
un - carrier mobility nmos
Cox - capacitance/area of the poly
Vtn - nmos threshold voltage

tdf = 1.2 * 2.5 / (un Cox (W/L) ( Vdd - Vtn) ) * W * L * Cox

by decreasing L, the rise and fall time of the logic gates increases.

the maximum frequency at which you can clock a circuit depends on the maximum propagation delay between two flip flops, clock skew, hold time and set up time.

Tsu + Tprop + Tcq = setup time + propagation delay + clock to q = minimum period = 1/f where f is the maximum frequency of the circuit

Decreasing L reduces propagation delay, setup time, and clock to q.
the derivation for prop day and clock to q depends on the design of the flip flop.

In addition to these effects, power dissipated by a gate can be calculated as follows

P = alpha * f * C * Vdd^2.

alpha is the activity factor, f is the frequency, C is the capacitance of the gate.

When L is reduced, the capacitance is reduced. Lower L implies that the circuit is operated at a lower Vdd as well, hence a quadratic decrease in power dissipation. Reduced power means the chip designers have flexibility to put more logic on the chip.


What does this have to do with cars and tricycles? Please stay on topic. :lol: 
August 2, 2006 9:05:15 PM

too bad a lot of you guys waste so much time on this forum. image how much you can learn about computers during this time....
August 2, 2006 9:09:53 PM

Quote:
too bad a lot of you guys waste so much time on this forum. image how much you can learn about computers during this time....

MarcusL is right :!: stay on topic :wink:
August 2, 2006 9:12:27 PM

Quote:
too bad a lot of you guys waste so much time on this forum. image how much you can learn about computers during this time....


1 star for trolling. yay!

You seem to be on here wasting time too, or did that slip your mind?

Funny how someone can criticize an activity that they to are engaged in, and yet sound so condescending.

Oh, and today is my day off from work, and I can do whatever I feel like (in a legal sense). I don't need to learn about micron sizing to know computers, too.
August 2, 2006 9:24:56 PM

Quote:
Thats just the nature of competition. I think thats what this guy was trying to say in a misspelled, gramatically horrendous way.



*grammarically* lol
:p  :wink:
August 2, 2006 9:30:26 PM

Quote:
They test .13 micron Athlon 2400+ with .9 micron Pentium 4 2800 MHz.

Then they test .65 micron core 2 duo with .9 micron Athlon 64 FX-62.


I think you need to have a good look at your units!! :lol: 

Owned by a sockpuppet! It doesn't get much worse than this.
a c 83 à CPUs
August 2, 2006 9:30:28 PM

Quote:
I like my Subaru Impreza WRX wagon :D  Its fast, practical (you can stick a bunch of stuff in it), and when I drive it like a sane person I get good milage on it... too bad it takes premium. I have a bike too.

So are computers with more "Emm Bees" (MBs) faster or slower?? :wink:

-mcg


Sorry if this is off topic, assuming that there is one, how do you get 'good' mileage on a WRX, I drive one in the UK and get about 25mpg (UK gallon) can never be called good.

But its great fun to drive, and at least I know what that fuel is doing, unlike some inefficient and slow cars :) 
a b à CPUs
August 2, 2006 9:36:57 PM

All I'm going to say my 10-speed is the best vehicle! No shelling out $60 to fill the fuel tank. That only takes $5 for a Bic Mac value meal!

Overall, this thread is pointless. I'm just glad it became a silly debate about cars.
August 2, 2006 9:47:14 PM

Quote:
They test .13 micron Athlon 2400+ with .9 micron Pentium 4 2800 MHz. because they say AMD do not have a latest processor. Of course we buy best in the market.
They test Pentium 4 3.2 GHz with AMD Athlon 64 FX-62/4800+/5800+ (which has on chip memory controller) and say “huh Intel suks”
Because P4 3.2 GHz is the best intel one. Isn’t it unfair? They both have good sides and bad sides.

Then they test .65 micron core 2 duo with .9 micron Athlon 64 FX-62.
Hmm AMD suks. And they do not have a rode map for a new processor for next 1 year.

Yah ppl get late all the time.
AMD took more than 1 year to build their Great “Athlon” while intel was already running P!!!.
Then intel release P4 to beat Athlon. Hmm after two years. Then came Athlon 64 with go beyond wildest P4. then came Core 2 duo. Next what.. AMD K-10

This is my point. We all beat out opponent over time. It is just a matter of time they do to same to us. We ( we and opposite) have our own methods to beat other, we may on separate paths, but we do what we need.

GET WHAT BEST FOR U. SOMETHING U CAN USE GOOD TIME FOR “UR” MONEY.

Buy what u like. What u need. It may be not the best comparing to others ideas. But it is what you like.
Do not ask around “hey what is best”?.. if this happens in the past, humans may never in the place now. We learn from our mistakes. We give our knowledge to younger generation. This is why we have books.
Do not ask, learn urself. Ppl who change the world never asked “hey papa how we do this”, they learn themselves.

“Arm with knowledge best u can, before u ask, criticize”

AMD FANBOY:

I love AMD, I’m using AMD since AMD 486, I love ATi.
Because they release quality products, which has a value for the price we pay.
I do not have money to offer (I’m in Sri Lanka and still a student) to buy a Athlon 64 or a P4EE (but I read lot). So I try plain Athlon Xp. It is a killer for its price. So do the Sempron. Where is Celeron? Hellooooooooo?
And a Celeron can beet a Sempron with same performance rating.
AMD little people.

I think the people who enter battle last with good force win it. Because others may ran out of ammo. But be aware it may be a trick.
Ex: Who brings the performance rating, on speed? Mm I think AMD did?
Now Intel Doing it Better?
What next from AMD. A 16 core CPU with on chip 16 GPU cores (one for one) for $2000.
I love to see Intel fan boys eyes if this happen.
“I wish on AMD to follow our Dreams”
Haha.



Why bother to buy a computer.
Build a game u like in your mind. Play it on mind. U can mod it while playing as ur wish. Coz it is lot fast and good for ur mind.
Benchmark each others brain. Everyone himself/herself good at something. Most of the time they do not go on their best path.
This is same to the CPUs.

We buy big, heavy, expensive things. Because we need to satisfy ourselves. Comparing to others. But do not do that.


Fair enough.

Now, for what you would term as a "fair" comparison, perhaps you would be kind enough to jump into your time machine, jet forward to June 2007(or there about) when AMD releases its 65nm DT processor, jet back to now, and perform some benchmarks of the processor that doesn’t exist yet vs. the one that does.
!