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Warning about Canon PIXMA iP3000/iP4000 series printers

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June 7, 2005 11:44:15 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers,comp.os.linux.hardware (More info?)

We were considering buying a Canon PIXMA iP3000 because these are the
first printers we have ever seen that finally quit ripping people off
quite so much on ink. The whole printer ink jet market, until now,
has been a scam, making you spend an average of $40-$60 buy new print
heads and cartridges for all three colors because one color runs out.
That is like having to replace your gas tank, fuel pump, radiator,
water pump, windshield washer tank and wiper motors, because you ran
out of gas or got too low on radiator fluid. Oh, and by the way,
there are no gauges, or transparent tanks, and no way to check the
fluid levels. Just one idiot light that says you are low on one of
your fluids. Time to replace all of the above to make sure you get
the right one.

The PIXMA printers are the first ones we have seen that have separate
transparent cartridges for each color that you can see the ink level
in and are easy to refill or replace without buying a new print head.

However, Canon is trying to make sure you pay royalties to Apple or
pay Microsoft to run on an insecure system full of spyware in order to
use their printers. There is no printer control language (PCL)
documentation or PPD files available. I called Canon's tech support
at 1-800-828-4040 and they refused to provide any technical
documentation to run their printers. Charlie, the supervisor I spoke
with, said that they did not have that information, and that to have it
would be of no use to them. I said, "Having the PCL documentation to
provide to people in the open source community so that they can write
drivers and open the market of millions of potential customers for
your printers from the NetBSD, FreeBSD, OpenBSD, and Linux communities
is of no use to you?" For the most part, he kept evading questions
about his statement. He also said they write their own drivers even
though he kept claiming that they did not have the specifications to
write drivers. He said the printers are made in Japan and they are
the only ones who have the driver documentation. Yet he also claimed
to have no email address or phone number to contact the branch in
Japan.

In other words, Canon is boycotting the open source community and
trying to make you run only on proprietory commercial platforms in
order to use their printers.


--
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Read how Network Solutions (NSI) was involved in stealing our domain name.
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June 7, 2005 11:44:16 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

On Tue, 07 Jun 2005 19:44:15 -0500, Vincent wrote:

> We were considering buying a Canon PIXMA iP3000 because these are the
> first printers we have ever seen that finally quit ripping people off
> quite so much on ink. The whole printer ink jet market, until now,
> has been a scam, making you spend an average of $40-$60 buy new print
> heads and cartridges for all three colors because one color runs out.
> That is like having to replace your gas tank, fuel pump, radiator,
> water pump, windshield washer tank and wiper motors, because you ran
> out of gas or got too low on radiator fluid. Oh, and by the way,
> there are no gauges, or transparent tanks, and no way to check the
> fluid levels. Just one idiot light that says you are low on one of
> your fluids. Time to replace all of the above to make sure you get
> the right one.
>
> The PIXMA printers are the first ones we have seen that have separate
> transparent cartridges for each color that you can see the ink level
> in and are easy to refill or replace without buying a new print head.

I recently bought an Epson Photo R320 - it has six individual ink tanks,
and there is a utility 'mtink' which shows ink levels on the computer.
Canon is well known in the Linux community for making boat anchors.
Anonymous
June 7, 2005 11:44:16 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

If you do your research before you buy, you will find out exactly which
operating systems are supported.
--
Cari (MS-MVP)
Printing & Imaging



"Vincent" <newsposting1@crel.us> wrote in message
news:lcrpe.25872$DC2.6751@okepread01...
> We were considering buying a Canon PIXMA iP3000 because these are the
> first printers we have ever seen that finally quit ripping people off
> quite so much on ink. The whole printer ink jet market, until now,
> has been a scam, making you spend an average of $40-$60 buy new print
> heads and cartridges for all three colors because one color runs out.
> That is like having to replace your gas tank, fuel pump, radiator,
> water pump, windshield washer tank and wiper motors, because you ran
> out of gas or got too low on radiator fluid. Oh, and by the way,
> there are no gauges, or transparent tanks, and no way to check the
> fluid levels. Just one idiot light that says you are low on one of
> your fluids. Time to replace all of the above to make sure you get
> the right one.
>
> The PIXMA printers are the first ones we have seen that have separate
> transparent cartridges for each color that you can see the ink level
> in and are easy to refill or replace without buying a new print head.
>
> However, Canon is trying to make sure you pay royalties to Apple or
> pay Microsoft to run on an insecure system full of spyware in order to
> use their printers. There is no printer control language (PCL)
> documentation or PPD files available. I called Canon's tech support
> at 1-800-828-4040 and they refused to provide any technical
> documentation to run their printers. Charlie, the supervisor I spoke
> with, said that they did not have that information, and that to have it
> would be of no use to them. I said, "Having the PCL documentation to
> provide to people in the open source community so that they can write
> drivers and open the market of millions of potential customers for
> your printers from the NetBSD, FreeBSD, OpenBSD, and Linux communities
> is of no use to you?" For the most part, he kept evading questions
> about his statement. He also said they write their own drivers even
> though he kept claiming that they did not have the specifications to
> write drivers. He said the printers are made in Japan and they are
> the only ones who have the driver documentation. Yet he also claimed
> to have no email address or phone number to contact the branch in
> Japan.
>
> In other words, Canon is boycotting the open source community and
> trying to make you run only on proprietory commercial platforms in
> order to use their printers.
>
>
> --
> Avoid the VeriSign/Network Solutions domain registration trap!
> Read how Network Solutions (NSI) was involved in stealing our domain name.
> http://inetaddresses.net/about_NSI.html
>
>
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June 7, 2005 11:44:16 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

> In other words, Canon is boycotting the open source community and
> trying to make you run only on proprietory commercial platforms in
> order to use their printers.

Boycotting the open source community? Me thinks you are barking up the
wrong tree.

ftp://download.canon.jp/pub/driver/bj/linux/

I see the Pixus 4100 and 3100, which are the US Pixma 4000 and 3000
respectivly. These are binary only, not open source, but they are they
do have linux drivers. I'm told they even work with the 4000R, but
I've not tested this personaly as I'm a cheap bastard and only own the
iP3000 and mP760.

BSD couldn't tell ya, but but Linux drives exist. They won't help you
install them, or at least that's what they told me, but if your running
linux/bsd you should expect this.

I also read somewhere that old mac systems require something about
installing in classic mode? I don't know what that means, but could be
worth looking into. It might mean your cruddy pos old BJ drivers might
print on it.

Even if these drivers didn't exist you could always use TurboPrint.
Sure it's not open source, sure it costs about USD$39. But it is an
option.
Anonymous
June 8, 2005 1:51:20 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

On Tue, 07 Jun 2005 19:44:15 -0500, Vincent <newsposting1@crel.us>
wrote:

>However, Canon is trying to make sure you pay royalties to Apple or
>pay Microsoft to run on an insecure system full of spyware in order to
>use their printers

Install Zone Alarm (free firewall) and you can have it block all
outgoing traffic from those spyware. As far as the spyware's
concerned you have a lousy internet connection and can't transmit
anything at all.
--
When you hear the toilet flush, and hear the words "uh oh", it's already
too late. - by anonymous Mother in Austin, TX
To reply, replace digi.mon with phreaker.net
June 8, 2005 2:52:44 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

> I use lexmrk and am considering switching to Canon for my next printer
> because Lexmark's mexican-made carts band too much. I do all my printing
> off-line and use a laser for web stuff. Does the spyware operate when the
> printer is not being used?

Good choice. Lexmark is one if not the most expensive printer to
operate per page, and doesn't justify it self with quality. Canon is
at the other end of the scale, where HP and Epsons are rather in the
middle. Each has their own charms and features.

I rather thought that Lexmarks phoned home, but this could just be Dell
printers. I've seen the Dell lexmark phone home, but they are polite
enough to tell you what they are sending.

My Epson from time to time has asked to phone home, I said no. It
never said why.

I have NEVER noticed my Canon trying to phone home. I'm not saying it
doesn't, only I've never see a firewall warning about the software it
installed.


Keep in mind that the parent is a frustrated rant about the existence
of Linux and BSD drivers. Frustrated due to deal with technical
support who love to give answers with many words but say absolutely
nothing. I am most empathetic, in fact I just had the bounce around
asking simple yes or no questions and getting conditional responces.
But it's inaccurate on the point of Linux drivers, they do infect exist
on Japan's ftp site. Hard to find as they are listed as being for the
Pixus where everywhere else it's the Pixma. I suspect they were
meaning that Windows is likely to get infected with spyware where linux
isn't a target.
Anonymous
June 8, 2005 6:20:25 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

Vincent wrote:

> We were considering buying a Canon PIXMA iP3000 .....
>
> The PIXMA printers are the first ones we have seen that have separate
> transparent cartridges for each color that you can see the ink level
> in and are easy to refill or replace without buying a new print head.

There were earlier models that had such tanks.
>
> In other words, Canon is boycotting the open source community and
> trying to make you run only on proprietory commercial platforms in
> order to use their printers.
>
Canon is, but others aren't. I discovered Turboprint has drivers for most of
the Canon models; they list the Pixma i3000, et al., as supported.

Check http://www.turboprint.de/printers.html for further information.

Al Preston
Anonymous
June 8, 2005 9:11:38 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

Impmon (impmon@digi.mon) writes:
> On Tue, 07 Jun 2005 19:44:15 -0500, Vincent <newsposting1@crel.us>
> wrote:
>
>>However, Canon is trying to make sure you pay royalties to Apple or
>>pay Microsoft to run on an insecure system full of spyware in order to
>>use their printers
>
> Install Zone Alarm (free firewall) and you can have it block all
> outgoing traffic from those spyware. As far as the spyware's
> concerned you have a lousy internet connection and can't transmit
> anything at all.
> --

I use lexmrk and am considering switching to Canon for my next printer
because Lexmark's mexican-made carts band too much. I do all my printing
off-line and use a laser for web stuff. Does the spyware operate when the
printer is not being used?

Brendan
--
Anonymous
June 8, 2005 9:12:11 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

| We were considering buying a Canon PIXMA iP3000 ....
| ....
| In other words, Canon is boycotting the open source community
| and trying to make you run only on proprietory commercial platforms
| in order to use their printers.

Vincent ....

I've been using a Canon Pixma iP3000 inkjet printer
under Debian GNU/Linux Sarge for about 6 months ....

It was configured through the KDE Control Center
to use the Canon BJ-7004 driver with CUPS ....

In the vernacular of linuxprinting.org
it seems to "mostly work" ....

There are some font-size issues when printing
from KDE applications that I haven't resolved
as yet but feel may be easily correctable
with proper font settings ....

This seems to be less problematic when printing
documents from gtklp instead of directly
through KDE ....

We bought this printer to use on an old Win98_SE machine
and I consider it a very nice bonus that it also
"mostly works" under Linux ....


--
Stanley C. Kitching
Human Being
Phoenix, Arizona

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Anonymous
June 8, 2005 11:20:29 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

> In other words, Canon is boycotting the open source community and
> trying to make you run only on proprietory commercial platforms in
> order to use their printers.

http://www.linuxprinting.org/canon-faq.html#free_softwa...

I don't even see the iP3000 in the printer database
(http://www.linuxprinting.org/printer_list.cgi?make=Cano...). You might
consider adding what you know to it.

--
To reply by email, change "deadspam.com" to "alumni.utexas.net"
June 8, 2005 11:20:30 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

In article <1%wpe.267549$Yr4.53774@fe07.news.easynews.com>,
andrex@deadspam.com says...
> > In other words, Canon is boycotting the open source community and
> > trying to make you run only on proprietory commercial platforms in
> > order to use their printers.
>


There is a really BIG difference between being boycotted and being ignored.
I think probably Canon is doing the later, not the former.

Since Canon doesnt promise any support for other platforms, why would you
expect to get any?

A boycott requires concious effort, and I dont think there is any.


--
Larry Lynch
Mystic, Ct.
June 8, 2005 6:52:56 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

Vincent wrote:
> We were considering buying a Canon PIXMA iP3000 because these are the
> first printers we have ever seen that finally quit ripping people off
> quite so much on ink.

But if you want your prints to last, you should use Canon premium paper.
Have you checked the price of Canon premium papers? There is no free
lunch.
June 8, 2005 6:52:57 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

> But if you want your prints to last, you should use Canon premium paper.
> Have you checked the price of Canon premium papers?
> There is no free lunch.

Why not Ilford? Will Ilford not last? I have many friends who used
the S520 with Ilford paper which IIRC uses the same ink.

So it's 64c a sheet. Ilford's Galerie fetches about 60c a sheet at
the local camera shop. Costco's Kirland paper made by a *cough*
unnamed Swiss maker for 15c a sheet.
Anonymous
June 8, 2005 6:52:57 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

On Wed, 08 Jun 2005 14:52:56 +1200, Frederick
<nomailplease@nomail.com> wrote:

>But if you want your prints to last, you should use Canon premium paper.
> Have you checked the price of Canon premium papers? There is no free
>lunch.

9 out of 10 times a cheap photo paper will work. Just hang them
behind glass to prevent fading due to sunlight exposure.
--
When you hear the toilet flush, and hear the words "uh oh", it's already
too late. - by anonymous Mother in Austin, TX
To reply, replace digi.mon with phreaker.net
Anonymous
June 8, 2005 6:52:58 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

On Tue, 07 Jun 2005 23:54:52 -0400, Impmon <impmon@digi.mon> wrote:

>On Wed, 08 Jun 2005 14:52:56 +1200, Frederick
><nomailplease@nomail.com> wrote:
>
>>But if you want your prints to last, you should use Canon premium paper.
>> Have you checked the price of Canon premium papers? There is no free
>>lunch.
>
>9 out of 10 times a cheap photo paper will work. Just hang them
>behind glass to prevent fading due to sunlight exposure.

Polycarbonate will work better. It tends to block UV light better
than glass.
---------------------------------------------

MCheu
June 8, 2005 6:53:21 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

Cousin Stanley wrote:

> | We were considering buying a Canon PIXMA iP3000 ....
> | ....
> | In other words, Canon is boycotting the open source community
> | and trying to make you run only on proprietory commercial platforms
> | in order to use their printers.
>
> Vincent ....
>
> I've been using a Canon Pixma iP3000 inkjet printer
> under Debian GNU/Linux Sarge for about 6 months ....
>
> It was configured through the KDE Control Center
> to use the Canon BJ-7004 driver with CUPS ....
>
> In the vernacular of linuxprinting.org
> it seems to "mostly work" ....
>
> There are some font-size issues when printing
> from KDE applications that I haven't resolved
> as yet but feel may be easily correctable
> with proper font settings ....
>
> This seems to be less problematic when printing
> documents from gtklp instead of directly
> through KDE ....
>
> We bought this printer to use on an old Win98_SE machine
> and I consider it a very nice bonus that it also
> "mostly works" under Linux ....

Thanks for the information. Can you tell us what maximum resolution
you are getting and what doesn't work when using the Canon BJ-7004
driver?

--
Avoid the VeriSign/Network Solutions domain registration trap!
Read how Network Solutions (NSI) was involved in stealing our domain name.
http://inetaddresses.net/about_NSI.html
Anonymous
June 8, 2005 7:31:17 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

I do think that Canon Photo Paper Pro is about the very best and also
very expensive. I now use Costco/Kirkland Glossy Photo Paper and I find
that with OEM ink I get about 98% as good results at 1/7th the cost.
The basic difference is in the finish. Canon is like a pond frozen
without wind, a still sheet of glass. Costco is like a pond frozen with
a 3mph wind.

I have also tried Epson matte paper and it is just find. I do prefer
glossy for 4x6 and since I put enlargements behind glass I do not see
the value of a matte finish.

Frederick wrote:

> Vincent wrote:
>
>> We were considering buying a Canon PIXMA iP3000 because these are the
>> first printers we have ever seen that finally quit ripping people off
>> quite so much on ink.
>
>
> But if you want your prints to last, you should use Canon premium
> paper. Have you checked the price of Canon premium papers? There is
> no free lunch.
Anonymous
June 8, 2005 7:31:18 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

measekite wrote:

> I do think that Canon Photo Paper Pro is about the very best and also
> very expensive. I now use Costco/Kirkland Glossy Photo Paper and I find
> that with OEM ink I get about 98% as good results at 1/7th the cost.
> The basic difference is in the finish. Canon is like a pond frozen
> without wind, a still sheet of glass. Costco is like a pond frozen with
> a 3mph wind.
>

Hmmm, very poetic illustrations - and the figure of 98% quoted, obvious-
ly, was done with scientific measuring instruments ;-). Okay...

I find that with my non OEM ink I get about 98% as good results at 1/7th
the cost (Where have I heard that before?). And The basic difference is
in the finish. Canon inks are like Don McLean's "Vincent" - "Flaming
flowers that brightly blaze swirling clouds in violet haze". And my
non-OEM inks are more Donovanesque: "Color in sky prussian blue, scarlet
fleece changes hue, crimson ball sinks from view." Though some have
argued that they're more like in the Mamas & Papas song "All the leaves
are brown and the sky is grey".

And you cannot buy Canon Photo Paper Pro paper for a song, even though
its quality (my opinion) is nothing to whistle at. Left unprotected in
light, Photo Paper Pro prints will quickly turn "A Whiter Shade Of
Pale". All around, it's no better than any of a dozen or so papers I've
tried, sometimes worse. And OEM or non OEM ink makes little difference.

-Taliesyn
Anonymous
June 8, 2005 7:45:00 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

zakezuke wrote:

>>But if you want your prints to last, you should use Canon premium paper.
>>Have you checked the price of Canon premium papers?
>>There is no free lunch.
>>
>>
>
>Why not Ilford? Will Ilford not last? I have many friends who used
>the S520 with Ilford paper which IIRC uses the same ink.
>
>

Some say that Costco/Kirkland Glossy paper made in Switzerland is mgf by
Ilford. It may even be to the same specs and Gallerie but in any event
it is real good; especially at 15 cents a sheet.

>So it's 64c a sheet. Ilford's Galerie fetches about 60c a sheet at
>the local camera shop. Costco's Kirland paper made by a *cough*
>unnamed Swiss maker for 15c a sheet.
>
>
>
June 8, 2005 8:57:38 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

Impmon wrote:
> On Wed, 08 Jun 2005 14:52:56 +1200, Frederick
> <nomailplease@nomail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>But if you want your prints to last, you should use Canon premium paper.
>> Have you checked the price of Canon premium papers? There is no free
>>lunch.
>
>
> 9 out of 10 times a cheap photo paper will work. Just hang them
> behind glass to prevent fading due to sunlight exposure.

http://www.pcworld.com/news/article/0,aid,105461,pg,3,0...

Not up to date with the latest printers, but you still might find it
interesting.
I think your 9 out of 10 may be optimistic, but that of course depends
on what "will work" means.
June 8, 2005 10:34:49 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

Why Taliesyn, I didn't realize that, in addition to being one of the most
pragmatic people on this NG with regard to printers, inks, and papers being
only a means to an end, your writing ebbs and flows as a great river that
brings life and beauty to all creation. Your alliterative phrases recall
Hemmingway's descriptions of his surroundings as he participated in a hunt
or a fishing trip. So glad that Measekite, through his flowery description
of Canon paper and OEM inks, inspired this gifted response. I have
actually found the Kirkland Glossy photo paper to be 2.549 (rounded to three
decimal places) percent better than Canon Photo Paper Pro, and the MIS inks
to be within the same color spectrum at a 97.554991 accuracy level on my
$29,000 digital spectrometer. These results, mind you, are obtained at
1/7th the cost for the paper (per Measekite's extremely accurate
calculation) and 1/12th the cost for inks as compared to retail, or 1/9th
the cost if compared to Costco (per measekite's previous posts).


"Taliesyn" <taliesyn4@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:11aeb5ahfqh3h74@corp.supernews.com...
> measekite wrote:
>
>> I do think that Canon Photo Paper Pro is about the very best and also
>> very expensive. I now use Costco/Kirkland Glossy Photo Paper and I find
>> that with OEM ink I get about 98% as good results at 1/7th the cost. The
>> basic difference is in the finish. Canon is like a pond frozen without
>> wind, a still sheet of glass. Costco is like a pond frozen with a 3mph
>> wind.
>>
>
> Hmmm, very poetic illustrations - and the figure of 98% quoted, obvious-
> ly, was done with scientific measuring instruments ;-). Okay...
>
> I find that with my non OEM ink I get about 98% as good results at 1/7th
> the cost (Where have I heard that before?). And The basic difference is
> in the finish. Canon inks are like Don McLean's "Vincent" - "Flaming
> flowers that brightly blaze swirling clouds in violet haze". And my
> non-OEM inks are more Donovanesque: "Color in sky prussian blue, scarlet
> fleece changes hue, crimson ball sinks from view." Though some have
> argued that they're more like in the Mamas & Papas song "All the leaves
> are brown and the sky is grey".
>
> And you cannot buy Canon Photo Paper Pro paper for a song, even though
> its quality (my opinion) is nothing to whistle at. Left unprotected in
> light, Photo Paper Pro prints will quickly turn "A Whiter Shade Of Pale".
> All around, it's no better than any of a dozen or so papers I've tried,
> sometimes worse. And OEM or non OEM ink makes little difference.
>
> -Taliesyn
Anonymous
June 8, 2005 10:34:50 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

Burt wrote:
> Why Taliesyn, I didn't realize that, in addition to being one of the most
> pragmatic people on this NG with regard to printers, inks, and papers being
> only a means to an end, your writing ebbs and flows as a great river that
> brings life and beauty to all creation.

Then I must thank Measekite, for he truly inspires us all to write
"creatively".... inspired, perhaps, by his very creative use of logic,
fact, and misinformation. And besides, who wouldn't be happy with
printer inks and papers that are "98%" as good as OEM; or in your case,
a little less at 97.554991 . . . :-)

-Taliesyn
Anonymous
June 8, 2005 10:35:26 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

"Vincent" <newsposting1@crel.us> wrote in message
news:lcrpe.25872$DC2.6751@okepread01...
> We were considering buying a Canon PIXMA iP3000 because these are the
> first printers we have ever seen that finally quit ripping people off
> quite so much on ink. The whole printer ink jet market, until now,
> has been a scam, making you spend an average of $40-$60 buy new print
> heads and cartridges for all three colors because one color runs out.
> That is like having to replace your gas tank, fuel pump, radiator,
> water pump, windshield washer tank and wiper motors, because you ran
> out of gas or got too low on radiator fluid. Oh, and by the way,
> there are no gauges, or transparent tanks, and no way to check the
> fluid levels. Just one idiot light that says you are low on one of
> your fluids. Time to replace all of the above to make sure you get
> the right one.
>
> The PIXMA printers are the first ones we have seen that have separate
> transparent cartridges for each color that you can see the ink level
> in and are easy to refill or replace without buying a new print head.
>

Wow! Where have you been ???
Canon printers have offered these individual tanks for many years including
almost all S and I series and many BJC's.


> However, Canon is trying to make sure you pay royalties to Apple or
> pay Microsoft to run on an insecure system full of spyware in order to
> use their printers. There is no printer control language (PCL)
> documentation or PPD files available. I called Canon's tech support
> at 1-800-828-4040 and they refused to provide any technical
> documentation to run their printers. Charlie, the supervisor I spoke
> with, said that they did not have that information, and that to have it
> would be of no use to them. I said, "Having the PCL documentation to
> provide to people in the open source community so that they can write
> drivers and open the market of millions of potential customers for
> your printers from the NetBSD, FreeBSD, OpenBSD, and Linux communities
> is of no use to you?"

Well considering 'PCL' is HP's proprietary control code language, and Canon
BubbleJets use a BJ print Engine (not HP).
Charlie was right. Serious software developers also rarely ring up the
technical support center in search of firmware/software code and would
instead contact corporate R&D



>For the most part, he kept evading questions
> about his statement. He also said they write their own drivers even
> though he kept claiming that they did not have the specifications to
> write drivers. He said the printers are made in Japan and they are
> the only ones who have the driver documentation. Yet he also claimed
> to have no email address or phone number to contact the branch in
> Japan.
>

He said the Tech Support Center does not have the information available (and
why would they). I hardly see that as 'evading questions'
www.canon.com .... click on the map for Japan.

> In other words, Canon is boycotting the open source community and
> trying to make you run only on proprietory commercial platforms in
> order to use their printers.
>

No, it is called quality control and protection of intellectual property
rights.
Give Bill over at Microsoft a call and say "Hey Bill, Joe Blow here...how
bout getting that source code for your OS so I can write a couple pieces of
software". Manufactures (including Canon) have Developer programs. If you
want what is needed contact corporate, and request information on what it
takes to get on board.
Anonymous
June 8, 2005 10:36:47 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

"ray" <ray@zianet.com> wrote in message
news:p an.2005.06.08.00.51.16.59858@zianet.com...
> On Tue, 07 Jun 2005 19:44:15 -0500, Vincent wrote:
>
>> We were considering buying a Canon PIXMA iP3000 because these are the
>> first printers we have ever seen that finally quit ripping people off
>> quite so much on ink. The whole printer ink jet market, until now,
>> has been a scam, making you spend an average of $40-$60 buy new print
>> heads and cartridges for all three colors because one color runs out.
>> That is like having to replace your gas tank, fuel pump, radiator,
>> water pump, windshield washer tank and wiper motors, because you ran
>> out of gas or got too low on radiator fluid. Oh, and by the way,
>> there are no gauges, or transparent tanks, and no way to check the
>> fluid levels. Just one idiot light that says you are low on one of
>> your fluids. Time to replace all of the above to make sure you get
>> the right one.
>>
>> The PIXMA printers are the first ones we have seen that have separate
>> transparent cartridges for each color that you can see the ink level
>> in and are easy to refill or replace without buying a new print head.
>
> I recently bought an Epson Photo R320 - it has six individual ink tanks,
> and there is a utility 'mtink' which shows ink levels on the computer.
> Canon is well known in the Linux community for making boat anchors.

That's odd, I know several folks with Canon printers on their Linux boxes.
Anonymous
June 8, 2005 10:43:25 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

Burt wrote:

>Why Taliesyn, I didn't realize that, in addition to being one of the most
>pragmatic people on this NG with regard to printers, inks, and papers being
>only a means to an end, your writing ebbs and flows as a great river that
>brings life and beauty to all creation. Your alliterative phrases recall
>Hemmingway's descriptions of his surroundings as he participated in a hunt
>or a fishing trip. So glad that Measekite, through his flowery description
>of Canon paper and OEM inks, inspired this gifted response. I have
>actually found the Kirkland Glossy photo paper to be 2.549
>

Will you please stop talking about your IQ?

>(rounded to three
>decimal places) percent better than Canon Photo Paper Pro, and the MIS inks
>to be within the same color spectrum at a 97.554991 accuracy level on my
>$29,000 digital spectrometer. These results, mind you, are obtained at
>1/7th the cost for the paper (per Measekite's extremely accurate
>calculation) and 1/12th the cost for inks as compared to retail, or 1/9th
>the cost if compared to Costco (per measekite's previous posts).
>
>
>"Taliesyn" <taliesyn4@netscape.net> wrote in message
>news:11aeb5ahfqh3h74@corp.supernews.com...
>
>
>>measekite wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>I do think that Canon Photo Paper Pro is about the very best and also
>>>very expensive. I now use Costco/Kirkland Glossy Photo Paper and I find
>>>that with OEM ink I get about 98% as good results at 1/7th the cost. The
>>>basic difference is in the finish. Canon is like a pond frozen without
>>>wind, a still sheet of glass. Costco is like a pond frozen with a 3mph
>>>wind.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>Hmmm, very poetic illustrations - and the figure of 98% quoted, obvious-
>>ly, was done with scientific measuring instruments ;-). Okay...
>>
>>I find that with my non OEM ink I get about 98% as good results at 1/7th
>>the cost (Where have I heard that before?). And The basic difference is
>>in the finish. Canon inks are like Don McLean's "Vincent" - "Flaming
>>flowers that brightly blaze swirling clouds in violet haze". And my
>>non-OEM inks are more Donovanesque: "Color in sky prussian blue, scarlet
>>fleece changes hue, crimson ball sinks from view." Though some have
>>argued that they're more like in the Mamas & Papas song "All the leaves
>>are brown and the sky is grey".
>>
>>And you cannot buy Canon Photo Paper Pro paper for a song, even though
>>its quality (my opinion) is nothing to whistle at. Left unprotected in
>>light, Photo Paper Pro prints will quickly turn "A Whiter Shade Of Pale".
>>All around, it's no better than any of a dozen or so papers I've tried,
>>sometimes worse. And OEM or non OEM ink makes little difference.
>>
>>-Taliesyn
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
June 8, 2005 10:43:26 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

measekite wrote:


>> Kirkland Glossy photo paper to be 2.549
>
>
> Will you please stop talking about your IQ?
>

hehehe...at least he has one to measure. :-)
Frank
June 8, 2005 11:19:24 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

"Taliesyn" <taliesyn4@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:11aegcjb64i8380@corp.supernews.com...
> Burt wrote:
>> Why Taliesyn, I didn't realize that, in addition to being one of the most
>> pragmatic people on this NG with regard to printers, inks, and papers
>> being only a means to an end, your writing ebbs and flows as a great
>> river that brings life and beauty to all creation.
>
> Then I must thank Measekite, for he truly inspires us all to write
> "creatively".... inspired, perhaps, by his very creative use of logic,
> fact, and misinformation. And besides, who wouldn't be happy with
> printer inks and papers that are "98%" as good as OEM; or in your case,
> a little less at 97.554991 . . . :-)
>
> -Taliesyn

And that was rounded to six decimal places. Sorry for the gross inaccuracy
induced by rounding.
June 8, 2005 11:33:53 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

PC Medic wrote:
>
> "Vincent" <newsposting1@crel.us> wrote in message
> news:lcrpe.25872$DC2.6751@okepread01...
>> We were considering buying a Canon PIXMA iP3000 because these are the
>> first printers we have ever seen that finally quit ripping people off
>> quite so much on ink. The whole printer ink jet market, until now,
>> has been a scam, making you spend an average of $40-$60 buy new print
>> heads and cartridges for all three colors because one color runs out.
>> That is like having to replace your gas tank, fuel pump, radiator,
>> water pump, windshield washer tank and wiper motors, because you ran
>> out of gas or got too low on radiator fluid. Oh, and by the way,
>> there are no gauges, or transparent tanks, and no way to check the
>> fluid levels. Just one idiot light that says you are low on one of
>> your fluids. Time to replace all of the above to make sure you get
>> the right one.
>>
>> The PIXMA printers are the first ones we have seen that have separate
>> transparent cartridges for each color that you can see the ink level
>> in and are easy to refill or replace without buying a new print head.
>>
>
> Wow! Where have you been ???
> Canon printers have offered these individual tanks for many years
> including almost all S and I series and many BJC's.

Are they transparent, so you can see the ink level, and separated from
the print heads, with no electronics in the cartridge to make it
expensive, with the cartridges and refills available at a reasonable
price? If you can name other models that have been around for a while
that do, then I stand corrected. Until now, the PIXMA's are the first
ones I have seen.


>> However, Canon is trying to make sure you pay royalties to Apple or
>> pay Microsoft to run on an insecure system full of spyware in order to
>> use their printers. There is no printer control language (PCL)
>> documentation or PPD files available. I called Canon's tech support
>> at 1-800-828-4040 and they refused to provide any technical
>> documentation to run their printers. Charlie, the supervisor I spoke
>> with, said that they did not have that information, and that to have it
>> would be of no use to them. I said, "Having the PCL documentation to
>> provide to people in the open source community so that they can write
>> drivers and open the market of millions of potential customers for
>> your printers from the NetBSD, FreeBSD, OpenBSD, and Linux communities
>> is of no use to you?"
>
> Well considering 'PCL' is HP's proprietary control code language, and
> Canon BubbleJets use a BJ print Engine (not HP).

Yes, I know every manufacturer has their own term for it. I referred
to it as a PCL in a generic sense because, even though HP uses it, it
was the best term I could think of without writing a sentence to
explain I was talking about a language to control a printer every time
I mentioned it.


> Charlie was right. Serious software developers also rarely ring up the
> technical support center in search of firmware/software code and would
> instead contact corporate R&D

Yes, and why is that? Because we are too passive about just accepting
that it is ok for technical support to not have any technical
information to give you. If they had said, sure you can have the PCL
docs and PPD file, what's your email address? The time they spent on
the phone with me would have been about 1 minute rather than 15 or 20
minutes and I would have gone right out and bought one of their
printers. Better yet, if the information was on their web site, they
would not have had a support call from me at all. Which method of
operation sounds more profitable?


> >For the most part, he kept evading questions
>> about his statement. He also said they write their own drivers even
>> though he kept claiming that they did not have the specifications to
>> write drivers. He said the printers are made in Japan and they are
>> the only ones who have the driver documentation. Yet he also claimed
>> to have no email address or phone number to contact the branch in
>> Japan.
>>
>
> He said the Tech Support Center does not have the information available
> (and why would they). I hardly see that as 'evading questions'
> www.canon.com .... click on the map for Japan.

That is the attitude I am trying to get people to change. The
question should be, "why wouldn't they?". All it means to them is
more sales. As long as people do not expect to get such information,
these companies are never going to change.

I tried to get corporate R&D contact information from the rep as well,
but he claimed not to have that either. Without spending half the day
looking (so I maybe I over looked it) I could not find any email
addresses on the main canon site and the only contact info I found
from the Japan link was here

http://www.canon.com/about/group/list.html

This was from their "Canon Group Directory" link. It is all over seas
numbers and no email. So who do you call,

Headquarters, Yako Development Center, Tamagawa Plant, ... ?

I could probably rule out the Optics R&D Center.

I guess I could spend a bunch of time and money calling over seas,
starting with the number for Headquarters, and get referred from
department to department until I get the right people. However, I am
not willing to do that because, after spending the time and money, I
would would most likely be unsuccessful. If they are willing to
provide the information it should be available from the American web
site and/or the America tech support line.


>> In other words, Canon is boycotting the open source community and
>> trying to make you run only on proprietory commercial platforms in
>> order to use their printers.
>>
>
> No, it is called quality control and protection of intellectual property
> rights.
> Give Bill over at Microsoft a call and say "Hey Bill, Joe Blow here...how
> bout getting that source code for your OS so I can write a couple pieces
> of software". Manufactures (including Canon) have Developer programs. If
> you want what is needed contact corporate, and request information on what
> it takes to get on board.

That example has nothing to do with the situation. I am not asking
Canon to release the source to their microcode or the equations to
their gate arrays. Without the technical information to communicate
with their printer, it is useless. It is like buying a Hayes modem
and not having any information on the Hayes command set. If their
support department gets enough calls requesting such information,
saying they are not going to buy their product without it, then
eventually it might get it through their thick heads.


--
Avoid the VeriSign/Network Solutions domain registration trap!
Read how Network Solutions (NSI) was involved in stealing our domain name.
http://inetaddresses.net/about_NSI.html
June 9, 2005 12:02:22 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

> If you can name other models that have been around for a while
> that do, then I stand corrected. Until now, the PIXMA's are the first
> ones I have seen.

Ummm, Epson. They are not transparent but are simply tanks like canon.
They are chipped to keep track of ink count and stop working when the
drop count hits a certain point. Easy to find 3rd party ink,
refillable carts, or external ink tanks. I wasn't happen with my Epson
but it's an option. Some Brothers featured this as well but i'm not up
to date on their current models.

> Yes, and why is that? Because we are too passive about just accepting
> that it is ok for technical support to not have any technical information to give you

Has consumer technical support ever been useful? The job of consumer
level technical support is limited to what button to press, what
software to install, and all things that apply to general supported
use. They offer NO technical support for Linux, only some drivers on
the Japanese site. This is pretty spiffy. Think 10 years ago when
your only options were pretty much Postscript, HP, or dotmatrix.


> That is the attitude I am trying to get people to change. The
> question should be, "why wouldn't they?". All it means to them is
> more sales. As long as people do not expect to get such information,
> these companies are never going to change.

More sales 'eh. Don't get me wrong, I agree with you, but to them they
likely feel that the release of propriority information would run the
risk of devaluing their products. Why but a Canon when you can use the
software they spend good money developing on some other printer.

Also you are trying to get world class support on consumer grade
equipment with MSRP of under $200. And let's face it, it's not worth
it. Now if you were to talk about the image runner series you get to
use this http://canon.codehost.com/.

I'm all for open standards, documented protocals, and freedom of
information. But at the end of the day it's their choice to do this or
not,, and it's your choice to buy it or not.

> I tried to get corporate R&D contact information from the rep as well,
> but he claimed not to have that either.

Outside of calling Japan, you gotta learn how to play phone tag. Gotta
learn how to say "well I've been to that department and they refered me
to you". This applies whether you are trying to get proprioirty
information or a trivial part.

> However, I am not willing to do that because, after spending the time and money,

Tough. They are under no moral or ethical obligation to provide you
with anything for free. They're pretty cool providing what they do for
free.

> I am not asking Canon to release the source to their microcode or the equations
> to their gate arrays. Without the technical information to communicate
> with their printer, it is useless.

I find my Canon ip3000 very useful. without any technical information
what so ever.. I plugged it in and it prints. Does it's job perfectly
well. Plenty of people using it under linux using the stock BJ drivers
or the one canon provides. If that's inadquate there is always
Turboprint. Sure it costs $40, but that is a very legit option. You
could get ultra fancy and run on a platform that is supported and use
post script emulation. Or if you don't like any off these soultions
pick a printer that has the features and docucumentation available to
you. In the end that's the only language any company understands.

> It is like buying a Hayes modem and not having any information on the
> Hayes command set.

Or better yet, a modem that isn't hayes compatable. Met a few of
those. Not so bad with the supplied terminal software and manual.
Pretty useless without it. So don't buy one.
Anonymous
June 9, 2005 2:39:34 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

Taliesyn wrote:

> Burt wrote:
>
>> Why Taliesyn, I didn't realize that, in addition to being one of the
>> most pragmatic people on this NG with regard to printers, inks, and
>> papers being only a means to an end, your writing ebbs and flows as a
>> great river that brings life and beauty to all creation.
>
>
> Then I must thank Measekite, for he truly inspires us all to write
> "creatively".... inspired, perhaps, by his very creative use of logic,
> fact, and misinformation. And besides, who wouldn't be happy with
> printer inks and papers that are "98%" as good as OEM; or in your case,
> a little less at 97.554991 . . . :-)
>
> -Taliesyn


You need a haircut.
Anonymous
June 9, 2005 3:47:12 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

On Wed, 08 Jun 2005 14:52:56 +1200, Frederick
<nomailplease@nomail.com> wrote:

>Vincent wrote:
>> We were considering buying a Canon PIXMA iP3000 because these are the
>> first printers we have ever seen that finally quit ripping people off
>> quite so much on ink.
>
>But if you want your prints to last, you should use Canon premium paper.
> Have you checked the price of Canon premium papers? There is no free
>lunch.

If you want prints to last you shouldn't be using a dye based and, in
particular, a Canon, printer in the first place.

--

Hecate - The Real One
Hecate@newsguy.com
Fashion: Buying things you don't need, with money
you don't have, to impress people you don't like...
Anonymous
June 9, 2005 5:57:16 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

"Vincent" <newsposting1@crel.us> wrote in message
news:E8Mpe.25914$DC2.3405@okepread01...

<snipped>
> Are they transparent, so you can see the ink level, and separated from
> the print heads, with no electronics in the cartridge to make it
> expensive, with the cartridges and refills available at a reasonable
> price? If you can name other models that have been around for a while
> that do, then I stand corrected. Until now, the PIXMA's are the first
> ones I have seen.

Absolutely - and that includes the vast array of aftermarket cartridges
available as well! You definitely will stand corrected on this one. The
Pixma's may have been the first ones you've seen, but that doesn't mean they
haven't been around. Ever see a child cover their eyes and say "you can't
see me because I have my eyes closed"? Canon has used these tanks since the
mid 1990's (maybe longer). As to recent models I've owned - BJC-3000 mfg'd
1999, s820 from 2002, i950 from 2003 and iP4000 from 2004, all used BCI-3 or
BCI-6 tanks. As to the issues with PCL and why Canon consumer tech support
couldn't speak to that has been more than adequately addressed by PC Medic.

Ron

<snipped>
Anonymous
June 9, 2005 1:57:43 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

Burt wrote:
> Why Taliesyn, I didn't realize that, in addition to being one of the most
> pragmatic people on this NG with regard to printers, inks, and papers being
> only a means to an end, your writing ebbs and flows as a great river that
> brings life and beauty to all creation. Your alliterative phrases recall
> Hemmingway's descriptions of his surroundings as he participated in a hunt
> or a fishing trip. So glad that Measekite, through his flowery description
> of Canon paper and OEM inks, inspired this gifted response. I have
> actually found the Kirkland Glossy photo paper to be 2.549 (rounded to three
> decimal places) percent better than Canon Photo Paper Pro, and the MIS inks
> to be within the same color spectrum at a 97.554991 accuracy level on my
> $29,000 digital spectrometer. These results, mind you, are obtained at
> 1/7th the cost for the paper (per Measekite's extremely accurate
> calculation) and 1/12th the cost for inks as compared to retail, or 1/9th
> the cost if compared to Costco (per measekite's previous posts).
>

Burt I can't agree with you. I have the same setup and at best you
are correct only to second decimal place. Anything beyond 2 decimal
places has to be speculation.

Mickey
June 9, 2005 9:21:33 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

"Mickey" <mickey@webster.com> wrote in message
news:11agt1kbk0tdne5@corp.supernews.com...
> Burt wrote:
>> Why Taliesyn, I didn't realize that, in addition to being one of the most
>> pragmatic people on this NG with regard to printers, inks, and papers
>> being only a means to an end, your writing ebbs and flows as a great
>> river that brings life and beauty to all creation. Your alliterative
>> phrases recall Hemmingway's descriptions of his surroundings as he
>> participated in a hunt or a fishing trip. So glad that Measekite,
>> through his flowery description of Canon paper and OEM inks, inspired
>> this gifted response. I have actually found the Kirkland Glossy photo
>> paper to be 2.549 (rounded to three decimal places) percent better than
>> Canon Photo Paper Pro, and the MIS inks to be within the same color
>> spectrum at a 97.554991 accuracy level on my $29,000 digital
>> spectrometer. These results, mind you, are obtained at 1/7th the cost
>> for the paper (per Measekite's extremely accurate calculation) and 1/12th
>> the cost for inks as compared to retail, or 1/9th the cost if compared to
>> Costco (per measekite's previous posts).
>>
>
> Burt I can't agree with you. I have the same setup and at best you are
> correct only to second decimal place. Anything beyond 2 decimal places
> has to be speculation.
>
> Mickey

Mickey - Since I am not vying for the exalted position of Troll of the Week,
and one Village Idiot is enough for one NG, I will refrain from doing battle
with you on this very critical and important issue. Although it is
difficult for me to withhold the standard childish schoolyard taunts, the
innane one-liners, the obscene written equivalents of flipping the bird, and
the sexual defamation of all your female relatives, I will observe the rules
of civility that are supposed to apply to newsgroup postings. But only 2
decimal places? For a subject that cries out for extremely accurate (as
well as poetic) reporting, 2 decimal places puts these statments in the
questionable realm of simple observation! Would you want someone to
recommend photo papers and aftermarket inks simply on the basis that they
look damned good and don't harm your printer? Where's your precise
investigative drive? What deprivation have you suffered in your youthful
history that that would bring you to the point where you eschew iambic
pentameter and alliterative, flowery passages in favor of the prosaic
statement, "Anything beyond 2 decimal places has to be speculation." Ah, if
only Cyrano had crafted the words and spoken for you!

Burt (aka Burtie Furtie, Reverend, the Pope, Fotofreek, and president of the
Aftermarket Club)
Anonymous
June 9, 2005 9:37:08 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

Mickey wrote:

> Burt wrote:
>
>> Why Taliesyn, I didn't realize that, in addition to being one of the
>> most pragmatic people on this NG with regard to printers, inks, and
>> papers being only a means to an end, your writing ebbs and flows as a
>> great river that brings life and beauty to all creation. Your
>> alliterative phrases recall Hemmingway's descriptions of his
>> surroundings as he participated in a hunt or a fishing trip. So glad
>> that Measekite, through his flowery description of Canon paper and
>> OEM inks, inspired this gifted response. I have actually found the
>> Kirkland Glossy photo paper to be 2.549 (rounded to three decimal
>> places) percent better than Canon Photo Paper Pro, and the MIS inks
>> to be within the same color spectrum at a 97.554991 accuracy level on
>> my $29,000 digital spectrometer. These results, mind you, are
>> obtained at 1/7th the cost for the paper (per Measekite's extremely
>> accurate calculation) and 1/12th the cost for inks as compared to
>> retail, or 1/9th the cost if compared to Costco (per measekite's
>> previous posts).
>>
>
> Burt I can't agree with you. I have the same setup and at best you
> are correct only to second decimal place. Anything beyond 2 decimal
> places has to be speculation.
>
> Mickey Mouse
Anonymous
June 10, 2005 4:30:22 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

On Wed, 08 Jun 2005 19:33:53 -0500, Vincent <newsposting1@crel.us>
wrote:

>>> The PIXMA printers are the first ones we have seen that have separate
>>> transparent cartridges for each color that you can see the ink level
>>> in and are easy to refill or replace without buying a new print head.
>>>
>>
>> Wow! Where have you been ???
>> Canon printers have offered these individual tanks for many years
>> including almost all S and I series and many BJC's.
>
>Are they transparent, so you can see the ink level, and separated from
>the print heads, with no electronics in the cartridge to make it
>expensive, with the cartridges and refills available at a reasonable
>price? If you can name other models that have been around for a while
>that do, then I stand corrected. Until now, the PIXMA's are the first
>ones I have seen.
>
We had one, oh, 5-7 years ago. There were no refills used on it and we
ditched it as not worth having after about 18 months. So, yes, these
clear tanks have been around for a long time.

--

Hecate - The Real One
Hecate@newsguy.com
Fashion: Buying things you don't need, with money
you don't have, to impress people you don't like...
Anonymous
June 10, 2005 11:16:15 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

My hope is that one day legislation requires all computer peripheral
manufacturers to guarantee their products will be supported with drivers
for a certain number of years (perhaps 7 might be reasonable), so that
should OSs change the drivers will support the current OS.

At one time, I suggested to one OS producer that they require this of a
manufacturers in order for them to get the logo certification to
advertise their product as "compatible" with the OS. That didn't go
over very well, so the next step might be for this to be required by law.

Currently, it is way too easy for a manufacturer to orphan a product by
never updating drivers for newer OSs or other features that come along.

Makes for way too much e-trash.

Art

PC Medic wrote:


>
> No, it is called quality control and protection of intellectual property
> rights.
> Give Bill over at Microsoft a call and say "Hey Bill, Joe Blow here...how
> bout getting that source code for your OS so I can write a couple pieces of
> software". Manufactures (including Canon) have Developer programs. If you
> want what is needed contact corporate, and request information on what it
> takes to get on board.
>
>
>
Anonymous
June 10, 2005 2:16:54 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

Burt wrote:
> "Mickey" <mickey@webster.com> wrote in message

> Mickey - Since I am not vying for the exalted position of Troll of the Week,
> and one Village Idiot is enough for one NG, I will refrain from doing battle
> with you on this very critical and important issue. Although it is
> difficult for me to withhold the standard childish schoolyard taunts, the
> innane one-liners, the obscene written equivalents of flipping the bird, and
> the sexual defamation of all your female relatives, I will observe the rules
> of civility that are supposed to apply to newsgroup postings. But only 2
> decimal places? For a subject that cries out for extremely accurate (as
> well as poetic) reporting, 2 decimal places puts these statments in the
> questionable realm of simple observation! Would you want someone to
> recommend photo papers and aftermarket inks simply on the basis that they
> look damned good and don't harm your printer? Where's your precise
> investigative drive? What deprivation have you suffered in your youthful
> history that that would bring you to the point where you eschew iambic
> pentameter and alliterative, flowery passages in favor of the prosaic
> statement, "Anything beyond 2 decimal places has to be speculation." Ah, if
> only Cyrano had crafted the words and spoken for you!
>
> Burt (aka Burtie Furtie, Reverend, the Pope, Fotofreek, and president of the
> Aftermarket Club)
>
>

Lighten up Burt, I was fooling with you. You're letting the dufus get
to you way too much. Oh, we've never disagreed on printer, ink
supplier or paper.

Mickey
Anonymous
June 10, 2005 6:22:41 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

Arthur Entlich wrote:

> My hope is that one day legislation requires all computer peripheral
> manufacturers to guarantee their products will be supported with
> drivers for a certain number of years (perhaps 7 might be reasonable),
> so that should OSs change the drivers will support the current OS.


And I think the ink industry also ought to be regulated.

>
> At one time, I suggested to one OS producer that they require this of
> a manufacturers in order for them to get the logo certification to
> advertise their product as "compatible" with the OS. That didn't go
> over very well, so the next step might be for this to be required by law.


The same should be for AfterMarket inks.

>
> Currently, it is way too easy for a manufacturer to orphan a product
> by never updating drivers for newer OSs or other features that come
> along.
>
> Makes for way too much e-trash.
>
> Art
>
> PC Medic wrote:
>
>
>>
>> No, it is called quality control and protection of intellectual
>> property rights.
>> Give Bill over at Microsoft a call and say "Hey Bill, Joe Blow
>> here...how bout getting that source code for your OS so I can write a
>> couple pieces of software". Manufactures (including Canon) have
>> Developer programs. If you want what is needed contact corporate, and
>> request information on what it takes to get on board.
>>
>>
>>
June 10, 2005 6:22:42 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

measekite wrote:


>
>
> And I think the ink industry also ought to be regulated.
>

>
> The same should be for AfterMarket inks.

You're a real idiot aren't you. Regulating the ink industry means you
have to start the regulation with the actual contract ink manufacturers.
Just where do you think they are located? Hint, English is not their
native tongue. The American government could never have any substantial
control over the ink industry and none is needed.
You're are still totally clueless. You post just to see your stupid sig
name on your monitor.
Get a frigging like!
Looser.
Frank
Anonymous
June 10, 2005 6:53:10 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

Frank wrote:

> measekite wrote:
>
>
>>
>>
>> And I think the ink industry also ought to be regulated.
>>
>
>>
>> The same should be for AfterMarket inks.
>
>
> You're a real idiot aren't you. Regulating the ink industry means you
> have to start the regulation with the actual contract ink
> manufacturers. Just where do you think they are located? Hint, English
> is not their native tongue. The American government could never have
> any substantial control over the ink industry and none is needed.
> You're are still totally clueless. You post just to see your stupid
> sig name on your monitor.
> Get a frigging like!
> Looser.
> Frank


HEY DUMMY. ALL YOU NEED TO DO IS REGULATE THE SALES AND MARKETING END
OF IT. WHAT CANNOT BE SOLD WILL NOT BE MANUFACTURED.

YOU ARE REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY STUPID. YOU MUST DRIVE A HUNDAI OR
A YUGO.
June 10, 2005 6:53:11 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

measekite wrote:

>
>
>
> HEY DUMMY. ALL YOU NEED TO DO IS REGULATE THE SALES AND MARKETING END
> OF IT. WHAT CANNOT BE SOLD WILL NOT BE MANUFACTURED.
> YOU ARE REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY STUPID. YOU MUST DRIVE A HUNDAI OR
> A YUGO.

That statement shows your total lack of knowledge about import,
distribution and labeling laws which doesn't surprise me or probably
anyone else in this ng.
Get lost. You have nothing of value to add to this discussion and you
have never helped anyone in this ng with your lying bullshit and
misinformation.
You have real problems and need to seek immediate help.
Frank
Anonymous
June 10, 2005 9:05:27 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

Frank wrote:

> measekite wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>> HEY DUMMY. ALL YOU NEED TO DO IS REGULATE THE SALES AND MARKETING
>> END OF IT. WHAT CANNOT BE SOLD WILL NOT BE MANUFACTURED.
>> YOU ARE REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY STUPID. YOU MUST DRIVE A HUNDAI
>> OR A YUGO.
>
>
> That statement shows your total lack of knowledge about import,
> distribution and labeling laws which doesn't surprise me or probably
> anyone else in this ng.
> Get lost. You have nothing of value to add to this discussion and you
> have never helped anyone in this ng with your lying bullshit and
> misinformation.
> You have real problems and need to seek immediate help.
> Frank


SOS
June 10, 2005 9:05:28 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

measekite wrote:
>
>
> Frank wrote:
>
>> measekite wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> HEY DUMMY. ALL YOU NEED TO DO IS REGULATE THE SALES AND MARKETING
>>> END OF IT. WHAT CANNOT BE SOLD WILL NOT BE MANUFACTURED.
>>> YOU ARE REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY STUPID. YOU MUST DRIVE A HUNDAI
>>> OR A YUGO.
>>
>>
>>
>> That statement shows your total lack of knowledge about import,
>> distribution and labeling laws which doesn't surprise me or probably
>> anyone else in this ng.
>> Get lost. You have nothing of value to add to this discussion and you
>> have never helped anyone in this ng with your lying bullshit and
>> misinformation.
>> You have real problems and need to seek immediate help.
>> Frank
>
>
>
> SOS

hahaha...Got'cha huh! When ever you paint yourself into a corner you
always reply with 3 grade level replies.
Well, you're already a done deal. You're now simply nothing more than ng
entertainment.
Frank
June 10, 2005 9:19:31 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

I was being light and continuing to make fun of our least favorite
participant. Not you, Mickey. We're on the same page.

"Mickey" <mickey@webster.com> wrote in message
news:11ajihg98janfbb@corp.supernews.com...
> Burt wrote:
>> "Mickey" <mickey@webster.com> wrote in message
>
>> Mickey - Since I am not vying for the exalted position of Troll of the
>> Week, and one Village Idiot is enough for one NG, I will refrain from
>> doing battle with you on this very critical and important issue.
>> Although it is difficult for me to withhold the standard childish
>> schoolyard taunts, the innane one-liners, the obscene written equivalents
>> of flipping the bird, and the sexual defamation of all your female
>> relatives, I will observe the rules of civility that are supposed to
>> apply to newsgroup postings. But only 2 decimal places? For a subject
>> that cries out for extremely accurate (as well as poetic) reporting, 2
>> decimal places puts these statments in the questionable realm of simple
>> observation! Would you want someone to recommend photo papers and
>> aftermarket inks simply on the basis that they look damned good and don't
>> harm your printer? Where's your precise investigative drive? What
>> deprivation have you suffered in your youthful history that that would
>> bring you to the point where you eschew iambic pentameter and
>> alliterative, flowery passages in favor of the prosaic statement,
>> "Anything beyond 2 decimal places has to be speculation." Ah, if only
>> Cyrano had crafted the words and spoken for you!
>>
>> Burt (aka Burtie Furtie, Reverend, the Pope, Fotofreek, and president of
>> the Aftermarket Club)
>
> Lighten up Burt, I was fooling with you. You're letting the dufus get to
> you way too much. Oh, we've never disagreed on printer, ink supplier or
> paper.
>
> Mickey
Anonymous
June 10, 2005 10:10:07 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

:-*

Burt wrote:

>I was being light and continuing to make fun of our least favorite
>participant. Not you, Mickey Mouse. We're on the same page.
>
>"Mickey" <mickey@webster.com> wrote in message
>news:11ajihg98janfbb@corp.supernews.com...
>
>
>>Burt wrote:
>>
>>
>>>"Mickey" <mickey@webster.com> wrote in message
>>>
>>>
>>>Mickey - Since I am not vying for the exalted position of Troll of the
>>>Week, and one Village Idiot is enough for one NG, I will refrain from
>>>doing battle with you on this very critical and important issue.
>>>Although it is difficult for me to withhold the standard childish
>>>schoolyard taunts, the innane one-liners, the obscene written equivalents
>>>of flipping the bird, and the sexual defamation of all your female
>>>relatives, I will observe the rules of civility that are supposed to
>>>apply to newsgroup postings. But only 2 decimal places? For a subject
>>>that cries out for extremely accurate (as well as poetic) reporting, 2
>>>decimal places puts these statments in the questionable realm of simple
>>>observation! Would you want someone to recommend photo papers and
>>>aftermarket inks simply on the basis that they look damned good and don't
>>>harm your printer? Where's your precise investigative drive? What
>>>deprivation have you suffered in your youthful history that that would
>>>bring you to the point where you eschew iambic pentameter and
>>>alliterative, flowery passages in favor of the prosaic statement,
>>>"Anything beyond 2 decimal places has to be speculation." Ah, if only
>>>Cyrano had crafted the words and spoken for you!
>>>
>>>Burt (aka Burtie Furtie, Reverend, the Pope, Fotofreek, and president of
>>>the Aftermarket Club)
>>>
>>>
>>Lighten up Burt, I was fooling with you. You're letting the dufus get to
>>you way too much. Oh, we've never disagreed on printer, ink supplier or
>>paper.
>>
>>Mickey
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
Anonymous
June 10, 2005 10:11:51 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

Mickey wrote:

> Burt wrote:
>
>> "Mickey" <mickey@webster.com> wrote in message
>
>
>> Mickey - Since I am not vying for the exalted position of Troll of
>> the Week, and one Village Idiot is enough for one NG, I will refrain
>> from doing battle with you on this very critical and important issue.
>

8-)

>> Although it is difficult for me to withhold the standard childish
>> schoolyard taunts, the innane one-liners, the obscene written
>> equivalents of flipping the bird, and the sexual defamation of all
>> your female relatives, I will observe the rules of civility that are
>> supposed to apply to newsgroup postings.
>

8-)

>> But only 2 decimal places? For a subject that cries out for
>> extremely accurate (as well as poetic) reporting, 2 decimal places
>> puts these statments in the questionable realm of simple
>> observation! Would you want someone to recommend photo papers and
>> aftermarket inks simply on the basis that they look damned good and
>> don't harm your printer? Where's your precise investigative drive?
>> What deprivation have you suffered in your youthful history that that
>> would bring you to the point where you eschew iambic pentameter and
>> alliterative, flowery passages in favor of the prosaic statement,
>> "Anything beyond 2 decimal places has to be speculation." Ah, if
>> only Cyrano had crafted the words and spoken for you!
>>
>> Burt (aka Burtie Furtie, Reverend, the Pope, Fotofreek, and president
>> of the Aftermarket Club)
>>
>
> Lighten up Burt, I was fooling with you. You're letting the dufus get
> to you way too much.


:-D

> Oh, we've never disagreed on printer, ink supplier or paper.
>
> Mickey
June 10, 2005 10:11:52 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

measekite wrote:
>
>
> Mickey wrote:
>
>> Burt wrote:
>>
>>> "Mickey" <mickey@webster.com> wrote in message
>>
>>
>>
>>> Mickey - Since I am not vying for the exalted position of Troll of
>>> the Week, and one Village Idiot is enough for one NG, I will refrain
>>> from doing battle with you on this very critical and important issue.
>>
>>
>
> 8-)
>
>>> Although it is difficult for me to withhold the standard childish
>>> schoolyard taunts, the innane one-liners, the obscene written
>>> equivalents of flipping the bird, and the sexual defamation of all
>>> your female relatives, I will observe the rules of civility that are
>>> supposed to apply to newsgroup postings.
>>
>>
>
> 8-)
>
>>> But only 2 decimal places? For a subject that cries out for
>>> extremely accurate (as well as poetic) reporting, 2 decimal places
>>> puts these statments in the questionable realm of simple
>>> observation! Would you want someone to recommend photo papers and
>>> aftermarket inks simply on the basis that they look damned good and
>>> don't harm your printer? Where's your precise investigative drive?
>>> What deprivation have you suffered in your youthful history that that
>>> would bring you to the point where you eschew iambic pentameter and
>>> alliterative, flowery passages in favor of the prosaic statement,
>>> "Anything beyond 2 decimal places has to be speculation." Ah, if
>>> only Cyrano had crafted the words and spoken for you!
>>>
>>> Burt (aka Burtie Furtie, Reverend, the Pope, Fotofreek, and president
>>> of the Aftermarket Club)
>>>
>>
>> Lighten up Burt, I was fooling with you. You're letting the dufus get
>> to you way too much.
>
>
>
> :-D
>
>> Oh, we've never disagreed on printer, ink supplier or paper.
>>
>> Mickey

Is there some hidden meaning to this drivel you keep posting or did your
meds kick-in and you forgot what you were doing?
Frank
Anonymous
June 11, 2005 12:10:10 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

Frank wrote:

> measekite wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Mickey wrote:
>>
>>> Burt wrote:
>>>
>>>> "Mickey" <mickey@webster.com> wrote in message
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Mickey - Since I am not vying for the exalted position of Troll of
>>>> the Week, and one Village Idiot is enough for one NG, I will
>>>> refrain from doing battle with you on this very critical and
>>>> important issue.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> 8-)
>>
>>>> Although it is difficult for me to withhold the standard childish
>>>> schoolyard taunts, the innane one-liners, the obscene written
>>>> equivalents of flipping the bird, and the sexual defamation of all
>>>> your female relatives, I will observe the rules of civility that
>>>> are supposed to apply to newsgroup postings.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> 8-)
>>
>>>> But only 2 decimal places? For a subject that cries out for
>>>> extremely accurate (as well as poetic) reporting, 2 decimal places
>>>> puts these statments in the questionable realm of simple
>>>> observation! Would you want someone to recommend photo papers and
>>>> aftermarket inks simply on the basis that they look damned good and
>>>> don't harm your printer? Where's your precise investigative
>>>> drive? What deprivation have you suffered in your youthful history
>>>> that that would bring you to the point where you eschew iambic
>>>> pentameter and alliterative, flowery passages in favor of the
>>>> prosaic statement, "Anything beyond 2 decimal places has to be
>>>> speculation." Ah, if only Cyrano had crafted the words and spoken
>>>> for you!
>>>>
>>>> Burt (aka Burtie Furtie, Reverend, the Pope, Fotofreek, and
>>>> president of the Aftermarket Club)
>>>>
>>>
>>> Lighten up Burt, I was fooling with you. You're letting the dufus
>>> get to you way too much.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> :-D
>>
>>> Oh, we've never disagreed on printer, ink supplier or paper.
>>>
>>> Mickey
>>
>
> Is there some hidden meaning to this drivel you keep posting or did
> your meds kick-in and you forgot what you were doing?
> Frank

:-*
June 11, 2005 12:10:11 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

measekite wrote:
>
>
> Frank wrote:
>
>> measekite wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Mickey wrote:
>>>
>>>> Burt wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> "Mickey" <mickey@webster.com> wrote in message
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Mickey - Since I am not vying for the exalted position of Troll of
>>>>> the Week, and one Village Idiot is enough for one NG, I will
>>>>> refrain from doing battle with you on this very critical and
>>>>> important issue.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> 8-)
>>>
>>>>> Although it is difficult for me to withhold the standard childish
>>>>> schoolyard taunts, the innane one-liners, the obscene written
>>>>> equivalents of flipping the bird, and the sexual defamation of all
>>>>> your female relatives, I will observe the rules of civility that
>>>>> are supposed to apply to newsgroup postings.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> 8-)
>>>
>>>>> But only 2 decimal places? For a subject that cries out for
>>>>> extremely accurate (as well as poetic) reporting, 2 decimal places
>>>>> puts these statments in the questionable realm of simple
>>>>> observation! Would you want someone to recommend photo papers and
>>>>> aftermarket inks simply on the basis that they look damned good and
>>>>> don't harm your printer? Where's your precise investigative
>>>>> drive? What deprivation have you suffered in your youthful history
>>>>> that that would bring you to the point where you eschew iambic
>>>>> pentameter and alliterative, flowery passages in favor of the
>>>>> prosaic statement, "Anything beyond 2 decimal places has to be
>>>>> speculation." Ah, if only Cyrano had crafted the words and spoken
>>>>> for you!
>>>>>
>>>>> Burt (aka Burtie Furtie, Reverend, the Pope, Fotofreek, and
>>>>> president of the Aftermarket Club)
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Lighten up Burt, I was fooling with you. You're letting the dufus
>>>> get to you way too much.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> :-D
>>>
>>>> Oh, we've never disagreed on printer, ink supplier or paper.
>>>>
>>>> Mickey
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Is there some hidden meaning to this drivel you keep posting or did
>> your meds kick-in and you forgot what you were doing?
>> Frank
>
>
> :-*

They did huh?
Well don't leave that corner of your mommy's basement where you're holed up.
Don't want to hurt yourself or anybody else for that matter.
Frank
!