Mage's Guild Quest

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This one quest for the Argonian in Sadrith Mora has me puzzled. I have to
find a certian book, which I'm told only exists in a secret library in the
Halls of Justice in Vivec. In other words - Ordinator HQ. Not finding it
through normal means, I explored a bit with TCL, just to see if I could find
it. It seems there are two entrances to this secret library, but both of
them involve a locked trapdoor in an office always inhabited by 2
Ordinators. I can't pick the lock, or they'll attack me. I can't kill the
Ordinators, because there's two of them, and if I kill one, the other will
report the crime and I'll have a price on my head. (Something I generally
try to avoid.) Bribing or otherwise persuading any of these guys just makes
them mad. Ordinators are not easily corruptable, it seems. Does this
mission really require me to bust a bunch of Ordinator heads in order to do
it? Or do I need to do something else, like cast Invisibility first?
(Being more of a fighter than a wizard, I suppose it's possible that they'd
expect me be able to do this by now, since it is a rather late Mage's Guild
quest.) Not that I don't think I could take every Ordinator in Vivec
without stopping for a rest by now, but I'd rather not resort to such
extreme bloodshed just for a stupid book. There has to be a more legit way
of doing this quest...

(Incidentally, I also searched the library thoroughly when I was exploring
with the no-clipping cheat, and didn't see the book. Thing is, even if I
did, the two Ordinators there probably wouldn't let me take it, and since
there's two, I've still got that criminal record thing to deal with...)

 

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Darrel Hoffman wrote:
>
> This one quest for the Argonian in Sadrith Mora has me puzzled. I have to
> find a certian book, which I'm told only exists in a secret library in the
> Halls of Justice in Vivec. In other words - Ordinator HQ. Not finding it
> through normal means, I explored a bit with TCL, just to see if I could find
> it. It seems there are two entrances to this secret library, but both of
> them involve a locked trapdoor in an office always inhabited by 2
> Ordinators. I can't pick the lock, or they'll attack me.

Try using a Chameleon spell before you attempt to pick the lock.

The 80% 30 second Chameleon amulet, that you may have acquired
on your way to Ald Velothi, works wonders in such situations.

 

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I can't remember that quest exactly, but is it the one where you need
to get Vapires... vol. 2? I think you can purchase it at Jobasha's in
the Foreign Quarter.

 

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On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 01:01:04 -0500, "Darrel Hoffman" <i.dont@think.so>
wrote:

>This one quest for the Argonian in Sadrith Mora has me puzzled. I have to
>find a certian book, which I'm told only exists in a secret library in the
>Halls of Justice in Vivec.

So far as your informant _knows_.

> In other words - Ordinator HQ. Not finding it
>through normal means, I explored a bit with TCL, just to see if I could find
>it. It seems there are two entrances to this secret library, but both of
>them involve a locked trapdoor in an office always inhabited by 2
>Ordinators. I can't pick the lock, or they'll attack me.

If your stealth or chameleon is good enough, you can.

> I can't kill the
>Ordinators, because there's two of them, and if I kill one, the other will
>report the crime and I'll have a price on my head. (Something I generally
>try to avoid.) Bribing or otherwise persuading any of these guys just makes
>them mad. Ordinators are not easily corruptable, it seems. Does this
>mission really require me to bust a bunch of Ordinator heads in order to do
>it? Or do I need to do something else, like cast Invisibility first?
>(Being more of a fighter than a wizard, I suppose it's possible that they'd
>expect me be able to do this by now, since it is a rather late Mage's Guild
>quest.) Not that I don't think I could take every Ordinator in Vivec
>without stopping for a rest by now, but I'd rather not resort to such
>extreme bloodshed just for a stupid book. There has to be a more legit way
>of doing this quest...
>
>(Incidentally, I also searched the library thoroughly when I was exploring
>with the no-clipping cheat, and didn't see the book. Thing is, even if I
>did, the two Ordinators there probably wouldn't let me take it, and since
>there's two, I've still got that criminal record thing to deal with...)

Invisibility wouldn't help, but Chameleon would. If you don't want to
either use stealth there, or take on the ordinators, the book can also
be found in the wild.

They are in 2 other places that I know of, one ancient dwemer library
inside the Ghostfence, and one set of vampire-infested ruins.

 

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> Invisibility wouldn't help, but Chameleon would.

Okay, help me out here. What specifically are the differences between
Invisibility, Chameleon, and just plain Sneaking? Seems to me they all do
about the same thing, but then this is my only successful character so far,
and he doesn't have much need for stealth most of the time...

> They are in 2 other places that I know of, one ancient dwemer library
> inside the Ghostfence, and one set of vampire-infested ruins.

Thanks. Rather than risk the wrath of the Ordinators (not that I couldn't
handle it, but I'd hate having all that blood on my hands), I took my
chances looking for that Dwemer Library. It was of course in the last
un-explored cell of the Red Mountain region, but I did find it - and hey,
what do you know? That was the last quest. I still find it somewhat
amusing that my Nord Barbarian who's never cast a spell in his life has now
been named head of the Mage's Guild. I should play an all-magic using
character next, and make myself head of the Fighters Guild, just for
balance...

 

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"Darrel Hoffman" <i.dont@think.so> wrote:

>> Invisibility wouldn't help, but Chameleon would.
>
>Okay, help me out here. What specifically are the differences between
>Invisibility, Chameleon, and just plain Sneaking? Seems to me they all do
>about the same thing, but then this is my only successful character so far,
>and he doesn't have much need for stealth most of the time...
>

Invisibility renders you totally invisible, and is cheaper on the magicka
budget, but the effect vanishes if you do anything other than move around.
Swing a sword, open a door or chest, etc... and you are instantly visible,
and usually screwed.

Chameleon is sort of like the Predator movie. You're harder to see, the
greater the effect, but not entirely unnoticeable. Particularly if you've
pissed off an NPC, and they're actively looking for you.

On a comical note, Dagoth Ur will chastise you if you approach his inner
chamber using either.

Sneak is just being sneaky. Hold down sneak, move slowly, use light weight
shoes, and you won't draw the immediate attention of the NPCs.

 

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On Wed, 1 Dec 2004 00:03:01 -0500, "Darrel Hoffman" <i.dont@think.so>
wrote:

>> Invisibility wouldn't help, but Chameleon would.
>
>Okay, help me out here. What specifically are the differences between
>Invisibility, Chameleon, and just plain Sneaking? Seems to me they all do
>about the same thing, but then this is my only successful character so far,
>and he doesn't have much need for stealth most of the time...

Invisibility makes you 100% undetectable, but is cancelled when you take
just about any action. As such, it's only useful for running past
enemies, not trying to do something in front of them.
Chameleon and Sneak do exactly the same thing, and stack. Both of them
render you harder to detect, but not totally impossible to detect. The
advantage Chameleon has over Invisibility is that it doesn't wear off
when you try to pick a lock, open a door, pick up an item or attack
someone.

 

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> Invisibility makes you 100% undetectable, but is cancelled when you take
> just about any action. As such, it's only useful for running past
> enemies, not trying to do something in front of them.
> Chameleon and Sneak do exactly the same thing, and stack. Both of them
> render you harder to detect, but not totally impossible to detect. The
> advantage Chameleon has over Invisibility is that it doesn't wear off
> when you try to pick a lock, open a door, pick up an item or attack
> someone.

So, technically speaking, if you cast a 100% Chameleon, would it be as good
as Invisibility in terms of detectability? It would actually be better, I'd
think, since it wouldn't wear off if you performed an action. Thinking of
Enchanting an item to do that. Might be expensive, but by now I can afford
it.

That said, I always thought it was a bit unrealistic the way stealth works
in this game. Playing around a bit with a Fortify Sneak amulet I got
somewhere, and it's ridiculous. You can stand right in front of somebody,
in a well lit room in plain sight, and they don't see you. They must be
absolutely blind or something. Real stealth involves hiding in shadows,
sneaking around corners, standing absolutely still in the corner until
nobody's looking, etc. This game doesn't seem to take any of that into
account, and instead just gauges your visibility solely on mathematics, how
high your Sneak skill is and what kind of shoes you're wearing. It seems
really forced, if you ask me. Plus, the idea that you're only truly
stealthy if NOBODY can see you seems a bit off as well. If only one person
200 feet away can see me, that shouldn't stop me from sneaking up on the guy
around the corner. Sure, there might be a witness, but it's so far away, he
probably wouldn't notice it. (That and the ability of some characters to
somehow see through walls is pretty annoying as well...)

 

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Darrel Hoffman wrote:
>>Invisibility makes you 100% undetectable, but is cancelled when you take
>>just about any action. As such, it's only useful for running past
>>enemies, not trying to do something in front of them.
>>Chameleon and Sneak do exactly the same thing, and stack. Both of them
>>render you harder to detect, but not totally impossible to detect. The
>>advantage Chameleon has over Invisibility is that it doesn't wear off
>>when you try to pick a lock, open a door, pick up an item or attack
>>someone.
>
>
> So, technically speaking, if you cast a 100% Chameleon, would it be as good
> as Invisibility in terms of detectability? It would actually be better, I'd
> think, since it wouldn't wear off if you performed an action. Thinking of
> Enchanting an item to do that. Might be expensive, but by now I can afford
> it.
>

Even the 80% chameleon from the amulet you can obtain in one encounter
is enough, especially with a good sneak skill. I could go into the Dark
Brotherhood fortress and kill them without ever being seen. It was
hilarious hearing these "hardened" assassins screaming "I want to live"
as I chased them down to add to my list of donors.


> That said, I always thought it was a bit unrealistic the way stealth works
> in this game. Playing around a bit with a Fortify Sneak amulet I got
> somewhere, and it's ridiculous. You can stand right in front of somebody,
> in a well lit room in plain sight, and they don't see you. They must be
> absolutely blind or something. Real stealth involves hiding in shadows,
> sneaking around corners, standing absolutely still in the corner until
> nobody's looking, etc. This game doesn't seem to take any of that into
> account, and instead just gauges your visibility solely on mathematics, how
> high your Sneak skill is and what kind of shoes you're wearing. It seems
> really forced, if you ask me. Plus, the idea that you're only truly
> stealthy if NOBODY can see you seems a bit off as well. If only one person
> 200 feet away can see me, that shouldn't stop me from sneaking up on the guy
> around the corner. Sure, there might be a witness, but it's so far away, he
> probably wouldn't notice it. (That and the ability of some characters to
> somehow see through walls is pretty annoying as well...)
>
>
That is one of my biggest complaints with the game. Plus the fact that
you can walk up to a guy and kill him and no one else in the room
notices. In the Thief series if you dropped someone you had better hide
the body before anyone else notices or they will come looking for you.
I have no problem with not being able to sneak if someone else notices
me as in Thief the observer would have raised an alarm. True they would
then join the others in hunting you down which doesn't happen here.

 

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Try the realistic sneak mod, Light based sneaking and the add-on, plus the
Thief experience overhaul.
Both mods (and the add-on) are made by someone trying to capture the realism
from the "thief" game. However I don't think it makes characters notice the
bodies... but I have not actually used it (thief experience overhaul) yet,
so there is no telling...

Oh and I really hate it when mobs can see through the walls. I always have
to go around them so that when I approach they face away from where I need
to sneak and then approach them, back away pretty far, and then go far
around them so they do not turn to face me, then hurry up and sneak before
they start moving again.

"Michael W. Ryder" <mwryder@_worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:FBsrd.1012873$Gx4.763922@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> Darrel Hoffman wrote:
>>>Invisibility makes you 100% undetectable, but is cancelled when you take
>>>just about any action. As such, it's only useful for running past
>>>enemies, not trying to do something in front of them.
>>>Chameleon and Sneak do exactly the same thing, and stack. Both of them
>>>render you harder to detect, but not totally impossible to detect. The
>>>advantage Chameleon has over Invisibility is that it doesn't wear off
>>>when you try to pick a lock, open a door, pick up an item or attack
>>>someone.
>>
>>
>> So, technically speaking, if you cast a 100% Chameleon, would it be as
>> good
>> as Invisibility in terms of detectability? It would actually be better,
>> I'd
>> think, since it wouldn't wear off if you performed an action. Thinking
>> of
>> Enchanting an item to do that. Might be expensive, but by now I can
>> afford
>> it.
>>
>
> Even the 80% chameleon from the amulet you can obtain in one encounter is
> enough, especially with a good sneak skill. I could go into the Dark
> Brotherhood fortress and kill them without ever being seen. It was
> hilarious hearing these "hardened" assassins screaming "I want to live" as
> I chased them down to add to my list of donors.
>
>
>> That said, I always thought it was a bit unrealistic the way stealth
>> works
>> in this game. Playing around a bit with a Fortify Sneak amulet I got
>> somewhere, and it's ridiculous. You can stand right in front of
>> somebody,
>> in a well lit room in plain sight, and they don't see you. They must be
>> absolutely blind or something. Real stealth involves hiding in shadows,
>> sneaking around corners, standing absolutely still in the corner until
>> nobody's looking, etc. This game doesn't seem to take any of that into
>> account, and instead just gauges your visibility solely on mathematics,
>> how
>> high your Sneak skill is and what kind of shoes you're wearing. It seems
>> really forced, if you ask me. Plus, the idea that you're only truly
>> stealthy if NOBODY can see you seems a bit off as well. If only one
>> person
>> 200 feet away can see me, that shouldn't stop me from sneaking up on the
>> guy
>> around the corner. Sure, there might be a witness, but it's so far away,
>> he
>> probably wouldn't notice it. (That and the ability of some characters to
>> somehow see through walls is pretty annoying as well...)
>>
>>
> That is one of my biggest complaints with the game. Plus the fact that
> you can walk up to a guy and kill him and no one else in the room notices.
> In the Thief series if you dropped someone you had better hide the body
> before anyone else notices or they will come looking for you. I have no
> problem with not being able to sneak if someone else notices me as in
> Thief the observer would have raised an alarm. True they would then join
> the others in hunting you down which doesn't happen here.

 

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On Wed, 1 Dec 2004 18:18:07 -0500, "Darrel Hoffman" <i.dont@think.so>
wrote:

>> Invisibility makes you 100% undetectable, but is cancelled when you take
>> just about any action. As such, it's only useful for running past
>> enemies, not trying to do something in front of them.
>> Chameleon and Sneak do exactly the same thing, and stack. Both of them
>> render you harder to detect, but not totally impossible to detect. The
>> advantage Chameleon has over Invisibility is that it doesn't wear off
>> when you try to pick a lock, open a door, pick up an item or attack
>> someone.
>
>So, technically speaking, if you cast a 100% Chameleon, would it be as good
>as Invisibility in terms of detectability? It would actually be better, I'd
>think, since it wouldn't wear off if you performed an action. Thinking of
>Enchanting an item to do that. Might be expensive, but by now I can afford
>it.

Yes, but most people don't bother to do that since there's an 80%
Chameleon item that's fairly easily obtained.
That plus a Sneak over 20 = much better than invisibility.