Using a non stock cooler

[topgunw]

Okay, I am thinking of buying a nonstock cooler for my FX-60, but I noticed that it said that this would void the warranty. I was more or less just wondering how the heck AMD would ever know if I used a nonstock cooler or not. I mean to me it doesn't seem possible. Also why would they care if I used a non stock cooler as long as it was working better, I mean it would lower the temperatures, and when mine is running at like 64C on load wouldn't this mean it would break less often? Does anyone have any ideas on how often they use that excuse of it being a nonstock cooler or if they even do? cause I NEED to lower the temps of this cpu. Thanks for any input.

 

[pwnage]

where did you read that. id like to see it.

why would AMD want to piss off their customers by not alowing them to use aftermarket coolers.

ive used non stock coolers and never had a problem RMAing procs before.

id would say you are safe.

 

[ethernalite]

They won't. Intel and AMD are both pretty good about honoring warranty. If your chip is broken, they'll replace it. That's just a phrase they use as a CYA.

However, please don't be a douche and overclock your chip and, in the unlikely chance it doesn't last 3 years (probably because you put retarded voltages in it), return it on warranty. If you are going to overclock, accept that it voids the warranty.

In all honesty, unless you are looking for a quieter cooler or overclocking(you may be), I wouldn't advise getting an aftermarket cooler. There isn't a good reason. 64°C may seem high, but it won't really hurt the chip in a noticable way. It isn't like lower temps mean it's using less energy (beyond the maybe .5W difference it would make because it can conduct electricity a bit better) - it just means that your cooler is better at dispersing the heat energy that is put off from the processor.

 

[garnin]

Overclocking in and of itself does not void your warranty.... What does void your warranty is when you start messing with voltages and doing stuff like lapping your chip.

 

[ethernalite]

Last time I checked the warranty documentation, any attempt to change the frequency outside of spec (aka stock speeds) voids the warranty.

http://cache-www.intel.com/cd/00/00/05/03/50372_50372.pdf

any Product which has been modified or operated outside of Intel’s publicly available specifications or where the original identification markings (trademark or serial number) has been removed, altered or obliterated from the Product.

 

[PCKid777]

Ethernalite wrote:

64°C may seem high, but it won't really hurt the chip in a noticable way.

I don't know what system you have, but 64C is HIGH for a 90nm CPU. I haven't checked technical specks, but I think that's near the threshold. And besides, there's some quote out there that states how lowering you temps every 10C increases the lifespan by years.

garnin wrote:

What does void your warranty is when you start messing with voltages and doing stuff like lapping your chip.

I never knew you could lap a chip. I thought ppl only lapped the heatsink? :?

topgunw wrote:

Okay, I am thinking of buying a nonstock cooler for my FX-60, but I noticed that it said that this would void the warranty. I was more or less just wondering how the heck AMD would ever know if I used a nonstock cooler or not. I mean to me it doesn't seem possible. Also why would they care if I used a non stock cooler as long as it was working better, I mean it would lower the temperatures, and when mine is running at like 64C on load wouldn't this mean it would break less often? Does anyone have any ideas on how often they use that excuse of it being a nonstock cooler or if they even do? cause I NEED to lower the temps of this cpu. Thanks for any input.

Get an aftermarket cooler and don't worry about warranties. Unless you physically damage the CPU with say a screw driver, I think most excuses will allow you to RMA the chip. What's your budget for a heatsink?

 

[ethernalite]

Ethernalite wrote:
64°C may seem high, but it won't really hurt the chip in a noticable way.

I don't know what system you have, but 64C is HIGH for a 90nm CPU. I haven't checked technical specks, but I think that's near the threshold. And besides, there's some quote out there that states how lowering you temps every 10C increases the lifespan by years.

If you read it on the internet, it must be true!

The FX-60 has a spec sheet that says 65°C is fine. 64° is fine. In fact, 70° is fine too. Heat isn't that big of a deal. You aren't going to melt the processor, and temperatures below a certain threshold aren't going to really speed up any processor degrading problems.

I can assure the original poster, unless he's looking for a quieter heatsink, or wants to overclock, there is no reason to get a new heatsink. It's a waste of money. By the time the his processor fails due to anything related to "heat fatigue", he could buy a chip just as powerful for less than the price of the whatever new heatsink he wants. What I'm saying is, quite a long time.

If you want to be concered about heat, be concerned on something that actually matters, like a hard drive, where the extra heat really affects the lifespan in a measurable manner. Ironically, I don't see people worried much about them.

I never knew you could lap a chip. I thought ppl only lapped the heatsink? :?

Why would you lap a heatsink?

People lap a chip for two reasons. The first is to make sure the IHS is level. Often times, there is a very slight concave or convex shape to the IHS. Lapping the chip gets rid of this, meaning the heatsink will get maximum contact. The second reason is to get to the copper that IHS are (usually) made out of. The top layer is a very thin layer of aluminum that is kept there to make the chip look better. Copper is a better conductor than aluminum.

If you meant "chip" as in an uncovered chip, and "heatsink" as in the IHS, then don't be pedantic, it only pisses people off.

 

[1Tanker]

where did you read that. id like to see it.

why would AMD want to piss off their customers by not alowing them to use aftermarket coolers.

ive used non stock coolers and never had a problem RMAing procs before.

id would say you are safe.

It's very likely. When A64 first came out, AMD said they wouldn't honour the warranty if you used any TIM other than Shin-Etsu G 749. Go figure!

http://www.xtremetek.com/info/index.php?id=14&page=1

I bet the Arctic Silver people were pretty p*ssed about this. The funny thing was that it was better than AS3, but very hard to find(i wanted some at the time). But now i imagine AS5 is better than the Shin-Etsu.

 

[holcar]

cant they search for a trace of non-amd thermal compound? That way they know you have removed their heatsink or used a different one.

 

[1Tanker]

cant they search for a trace of non-amd thermal compound? That way they know you have removed their heatsink or used a different one.

I would imagine they could, but it may be cost-prohibitive....easier to replace a $250-$300 CPU. I'm sure their scientists/technicians, or whoever would check that, are well paid.

 

[topgunw]

I have talked to AMD a few times, and they sid that my processor running at 64C would be very degrading to its life. In fact they said there is an emergency shut off type device that turns the processor off when it hits 65C.

Also, looking for traces of a non-AMD thermal compound would not mean that I necessarily used a new heatsink. It may be simply that I reseated the heatsink afterward, and used a new thermal compound.

Anyway, in looking for an aftermarket heatsink I really dont have a price limit. However, I am in Canada so it is hard to find some models of heatsinks. Anyway, any ideas on what heatsink I should buy if I decide to (still not sure about whether it is worth it or not) would be very helpful.

Also, it would be really helpful for comments on which thermal compound I should buy. Preferably one that won't void the warranty if they do for some reason search for trace elements of it.

Thanks

 

[Gary_Busey]

There's plenty of cooling options for you, but you'll have to check up on the warranty thing because I don't know.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16835118004

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16835118118

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16835185125

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16835109118

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16835185001

Thermal compound:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16835100007

 

[1Tanker]

Also, it would be really helpful for comments on which thermal compound I should buy. Preferably one that won't void the warranty if they do for some reason search for trace elements of it.
Thanks

Your best choice in that case would be AS Ceramique. It doesn't use silver like regular AS3/5. Therefore Ceramique is electrically non-conductive whereas because of the silver, AS5 is conductive.

PS. If you read AMD's statements in that article i posted, they mentioned about not using silver-based paste due to the conductivity.

 

[Weeble]

Technically AMD do say about their retail chips

This Limited Warranty shall be null and void if the AMD microprocessor which is the subject of this Limited Warranty is used with any heatsink/fan other than the one provided herewith.

http://www.amd.com/us-en/Processors/TechnicalResources/0,,30_182_867_2139,00.html

but I don't really think they are going to spend money investigating it all that closely. It probably depends on the reason you RMA the chip. if you have burned it to smithereens they might be more concerned but then if you did that they'd probably have less to investigate anyway.

If greatly concerned by warranty implications you could always try reseating your original cooler after cleaning the CPU and reapplying the correct compound. I have reduced temps that way (in that case it was not well seated in the first place by the person who put it together).

 

[clue69less]

People lap a chip for two reasons. The first is to make sure the IHS is level. Often times, there is a very slight concave or convex shape to the IHS. Lapping the chip gets rid of this, meaning the heatsink will get maximum contact.

That is the theory anyway. In practice, there are few people that can do a good job of hand lapping an item as large as a CPU IHS with regards to flatness. I worked in the field of metallography for many years and outfitted numerous world class labs. One of the things we'd do is measure the flatness of the preps. It even takes a well-skilled operator to achieve flatness with a machine prep. Hand preps are almost always convex, even for incredibly skilled metallographers - I'm talking people that do this 40 hours a week.

But to get back to your point, many IHS's arrive concave. A hand prep most likely results in a convex surface and that is preferable to concave, because you attach the HSF and use screws and/or springs to pull the two into tight contact. Of the materials at that interface, the CPU HS is often the stiffest. The mobo and backing plate are pretty flexy and the CPU and it's IHS are intermediate between the two. So as you tighten the HSF onto the IHS, these things deform and a convex ISH can actually deform to come into excellent contact with the HS. If you doubt my analysis, all you have to do is to do what I've done literally hundreds of times - go measure the flatness of the surfaces before and after lapping. I've been to materials congresses, training courses, etc., where they have hand lapping contests. Winners are decided by the flatness and residual deformation of the finished prep. Serious bidness.

 

[PCKid777]

Ethernalite wrote:

Why would you lap a heatsink?

Just like the idea about lapping the IHS, some ppl lap their heatsinks to get a smooth finish for better contact between the IHS and HS, and thus better heat conductivity. I consider lapping the IHS a little more risky, as you're actually dealing with a delicate component. If you lap a heatsink, then you only have to worry about the finish.

Ethernalite wrote:

If you read it on the internet, it must be true!

Are you mocking me?

Ice Czar wrote:

as a rule of thumb for every 10C you decrease the temperature you increase the life expecancy by 100% conversely for every rise of 10C life expectancy decreases by 50%

http://forums.cgsociety.org/archive/index.php/t-140765.html

Urlyin wrote:

For every 10C you increase a discrete parts (memory chips, cores, Mosfets, IC's, etc) average
operating temperature you cut it lifespan in 1/2 what every that lifespan may be. Conversely
for every 10C you lower the average operating temperature you double the parts lifespan. It
doesn't take a rocket scientist to conclude the card that runs 60C will have an average life
span that is 4 times longer than if the card runs 80C.

http://www.bleedinedge.com/forum/archive/index.php?t-5305.html

EDIT: And oh, I just found this: AMD FX60 Specs
MAX TEMP IS 65C!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So please, if you're gonna say that that temp is safe, do your homework first.

As for the original post: Don't worry about your chip suddenly dying unless you do some severe overclocking or let it get fried during a T-storm. Get a Zalman, Scythe, or Thermaltake cooler and some Arctic Silver 5. I have been using AC5 for 4 years now, and I've used it on Barton Athlon XP chips (and I heard how dangerous it could be) with NO problem. I am even using it on a A64 3000+ DTR chip, which does NOT have an IHS, and I haven't had a problem. Don't worry about the conductivity part; unless you decide to put some on the pins (and please don't), you should be fine.

EDIT: And please excuse the primitive quoting that I've done; I've never really used that feature but there are times when I really should use it, like now.

EDIT: And oh, you can always buy some Arctic Cleaner that actually dissolves and eliminates all trace of thermal grease for a fresh start in case you're worried they can find out somehow

 

[ethernalite]

Ethernalite wrote: Why would you lap a heatsink?

Just like the idea about lapping the IHS, some ppl lap their heatsinks to get a smooth finish for better contact between the IHS and HS, and thus better heat conductivity. I consider lapping the IHS a little more risky, as you're actually dealing with a delicate component. If you lap a heatsink, then you only have to worry about the finish.


Fair enough. And Clue69Less, thanks for the correction on the whole lapping of the IHS. I've never done it personally, so I wouldn't really know about the difficulties of metal work.

Ice Czar wrote:
as a rule of thumb for every 10C you decrease the temperature you increase the life expecancy by 100% conversely for every rise of 10C life expectancy decreases by 50%

http://forums.cgsociety.org/archive/index.php/t-140765.html

Urlyin wrote:

For every 10C you increase a discrete parts (memory chips, cores, Mosfets, IC's, etc) average
operating temperature you cut it lifespan in 1/2 what every that lifespan may be. Conversely
for every 10C you lower the average operating temperature you double the parts lifespan. It
doesn't take a rocket scientist to conclude the card that runs 60C will have an average life
span that is 4 times longer than if the card runs 80C.

http://www.bleedinedge.com/forum/archive/index.php?t-5305.html

As for the original post: Don't worry about your chip suddenly dying unless you do some severe overclocking or let it get fried during a T-storm. Get a Zalman, Scythe, or Thermaltake cooler and some Arctic Silver 5. I have been using AC5 for 4 years now, and I've used it on Barton Athlon XP chips (and I heard how dangerous it could be) with NO problem. I am even using it on a A64 3000+ DTR chip, which does NOT have an IHS, and I haven't had a problem. Don't worry about the conductivity part; unless you decide to put some on the pins (and please don't), you should be fine.

EDIT: And please excuse the primitive quoting that I've done; I've never really used that feature but there are times when I really should use it, like now.

I would presume people are getting those numbers from the Arrhenius equation, which would be about in line with those numbers. The Arrhenius equation is still widely used to figure out MTBF in certain things, because it (theoretically) can be used to determine the relationship between temperature and chemical reaction rate. A chip manufacturer obviously can't wait 5 years to determine a chip's MTBF, so they will stress test it. A CMOS chip manufacturer may put their chips and run them at 125° with 100% relative humidity, determine the failure rate after a month, and then extrapolate down to what their maximum specs allow for, and determine the MTBF, and then pad that number down to what they feel is safe.

However, that being said, it doesn't really matter. Yes, increased heat will negatively affect lifespan (not quite as simple as halving the life with an extra 10°, though). Big deal. I don't think you quite respect how resiliant chips are. I don't know about AMD's chips, but Intel's design goals are for less than 1% of their chips to fail in the real world after 5 years, and less than 3% after 10. This is in real world use- where faulty power supplies exist with $23 motherboards that have a 16 cent voltage regulator that isn't running in spec. This is running in a world where sometimes fans stop working, and hell, sometimes heatsinks plain fall off. Thermal pads dry up, and people stick their computers up against the wall and have no air flow.

All I'm saying that, as long as you are running the chip within spec temperature, or at least somewhat close to it, it's not a big deal. Chances are very good that your chip will continue to chug along for another decade, even with your high temps.

Back in college, I worked part time at a local high school. I did most of the hardware repairs, and I can't think of a single time a CPU failed. Power supplies - all the time. Hard drives - even more often. Motherboards - occasionally. Processor? No, not one. I had a couple of boxes whose processor fans had failed, and the processor must have been living on the edge of thermal throttling at 90°, but the reason why the problem was noticed was because something else in the box had failed, not the processor.

I realize that ancedotal evidence is not the best way to support an argument, but all I'm trying to say is that it simply is not worth his time and money to buy some nice HSF.

 

[PCKid777]

Fair enough too. I don't expect CPUs to start dying after their 3 year warranty. I, however, like to keep things working at their best, and when I see the max temp for a chip, I try to stay away from it.

And besides, he doesn't need to spend a bundle on say, watercooling.

But I should have asked topgunw, what kind of setting is this PC in? And what kind of case and cooling do you currently have? I've heard that the stock coolers can work well under certain conditions. If airflow inside the case is a problem, then a minor upgrade to a better fan may help more than a more expensive heatsink. Then again, I guess it all depends on what you want to spend, if you want to spend.

 

[DaveUK]

I read somewhere that the die of a modern CPU releases more energy in heat per second per square inch than the surface of the sun - so it must be true.

In relation to your concerns, though, as long as you're within thermal specifications for the CPU (and your case isn't beginning to smoke or worse, supernova) then you should be fine.

Apart from the desire to overclock (which yes does most definitely void your warranty) my single greatest concern in choosing an aftermarket cooler is NOISE.

If your temps really bother you, buy something QUIET, buy some Arctic Silver 5, and mount that bitch to perfection.

The FX-60 is a notoriously hot CPU anyway, but with a quality HSF (eg Zalman or Scythe Ninja - if it supports the FX-60) and AS5 you should notice a marked drop in temps and a pleasant reduction in noise.

Basic minimum for a cool case (imho)
- quality aftermarket cooler mounted with AS5 or better
- sensible cabling with round cables and cable ties to prevent obstruction
- one intake at the front and one exhaust fan at the rear (minimum)

I tend to follow that simple formula for all my builds, I haven't used a stock HSF for years. Of course, you can increase the fans and quality of the HSF depending on needs, overclocking, noise, and budget.

Im out...

 

[topgunw]

The case I am using is a thermaltake armor, it has 2 intake 120mm fans in the front, one 250mm intake fan on the side. it then has 1 120mm fan outtake at the back and then 2 90mm outtake fans (one in the top and one in the back). I have added the 250mm fan and one 120mm fan in the front of the case, but this only lowered the cpu temperature to 38C idle, and 64C on load, which means it is now within specs, but according to AMD it is not safe at all for this.

Referring to the environment now, it is in an airconditioned house (dont know what the exact room temp is, but not hot) and all fans are at LEAST 1 foot away from the walls. The front fans are not even close to a wall however.

Also, I am not planning to overclock this cpu, as it is still plenty fast enough. Also when chosing a HSF I am not really worried about sound. Also someone said to remount the current HSF. I am wondering what the "proper" way to mount one is, I am just not sure how it can be properly or poorly mounted.

Thanks again for your time

Edit: Added Last paragraph

 

[PCKid777]

Well, those are pretty high temps for that case/environment. Remounting the HSF basically means taking it off, using some Arctic Cleaner (or some pure alcohol) to clean the CPU IHS and HSF, then adding additional thermal compound, then mounting it back on.

btw, that is one nice case that you have. I wish I could've got one, but I'm stuck with a Tsunami case for now.

 

[ethernalite]

I read somewhere that the die of a modern CPU releases more energy in heat per second per square inch than the surface of the sun - so it must be true.

I've read that somewhere too - or it was "approaching" that. I never really bothered to check it. I just assumed it to be true.

But for the sake of point, something like this is rather easy to verify, so let's find out.

The energy output of the sun is about 3.86x10^26 joules per second (aka Watts). The diameter of the sun is about 1.39x10^9 meters, so that means its surface area (4(pi)r^2) is about 6.07x10^22 cm^2. So that means the energy output of the sun is 6359 Watts/cm^2.

Let's take the hottest processor I know of, a Smithfield 90nm chip. It had a 209mm^2 (or 2.09 cm^2) die size, and took around 150W at full load. So, that means it had an energy output of 72W/cm^2.

Oops, looks like the internet was wrong! Shocker!

I double checked my calculations, and I can't find an error. I checked the diameter of the sun / energy output of the sun with a couple of internet sources, and they all agreed within a tenth an order of magnitude, far less than the three magnitude difference of the end result.

 

[clue69less]

The energy output of the sun is about 3.86x10^26 joules per second (aka Watts). The diameter of the sun is about 1.39x10^9 meters, so that means its surface area (4(pi)r^2) is about 6.07x10^22 cm^2. So that means the energy output of the sun is 6359 Watts/cm^2.

Let's take the hottest processor I know of, a Smithfield 90nm chip. It had a 209mm^2 (or 2.09 cm^2) die size, and took around 150W at full load. So, that means it had an energy output of 72W/cm^2.

Oops, looks like the internet was wrong! Shocker!

Good work! Another urban legend debunked. Maybe when fusion CPUs hit the market, the gap will narrow.