AM2 Build Question(s)

[jmacintosh]

I am looking to build a system primarily for gaming. I currently play SWG, Brothers In Arms, rFactor, & NR2003. I currently am running the following rig...

AMD Athlon XP 2400
Asus A7N8X deluxe mobo
512 Mb (2x256) Corsair Cas2 DDR400
GeForce 4 Ti4400
Western Digital Caviar 80Gb HDD & Maxtor 80 Gb HDD
CD RW Drive & CD Drive
Onboard Sound
Enermax 500w PSU

The name of the game is to tranfer the HDDs, CDs, & PSU and replace the rest with the following...

AMD Athlon X2 4200
Asus M2N-E
2Gb Corsair XMS2 (2 x 1Gb) DDR2 800
XFX GeForce 7900 GT

Onboard sound has served me well, so I don't feel a need for a sound card. I have no desire to do RAID, or SLI. I'm not even sure what exactly SATA is, but if it is necessary, I could replace my 2nd HDD with a 200 or 300Gb HDD.

I have no desire for an Intel chip.
I have no desire for an ATI card.
I have no desire to run Windows Vista.

I'm not really sure what advantage dual core will have for the titles I play. If there is a comparable single core setup please let me know...Thank you.

 

[calyn]

The upgrade you're planning looks good for what you want. But the nForce 5 chipset only has one ATA port, so will only support either the optical drives or HDD's. In which case the HDD's are probably the ones you'll drop. Any SATA drive would do fine, I prefer the WD Raptors, but the Seagate 7200.10 is very good and costs less.

 

[jmacintosh]

Hmmmph!!! Always a catch...Is there a comparable mobo that allows me to use 2 HDD, and 2 CD?

 

[zeuson]

Hmmmph!!! Always a catch...Is there a comparable mobo that allows me to use 2 HDD, and 2 CD?

Yes, but then you have to pick Nvidia 4 serie chip sets. I am building a system for gaming as well. I am choosing AMD Athlone 3800+ single core. For current generation games, 3800+ is faster than X2 4200+. So I get better performance. Then by the time the games started using dual core advantage, I may be able to upgrade to X2 7600 or something.

 

[jmacintosh]

Not to cast doubt on this fellow, but can anyone also attest to what he is saying?

 

[corvetteguy]

I would keep the board and ditch the HD's, since you can get a WD 250gig se 16 for less than $100 american. I would also consider getting an EE version of the 4200 or 4600 since they are as good but use very little power... save you some money in the long run

 

[raven3x7]

Additionally make sure the XMS2 memory does no require more than 1.95V becausethats the max atm for the M2N-E. If thats the CL5 modules if i remember correctly they should be 1.9V. Look it up to be sure.

 

[jmacintosh]

Is there a motherboard that will allow and IDE0 and an IDE1 connection with an EE version of the AMD 64 4200?

 

[jmacintosh]

Additionally make sure the XMS2 memory does no require more than 1.95V becausethats the max atm for the M2N-E. If thats the CL5 modules if i remember correctly they should be 1.9V. Look it up to be sure.

The RAM you are referring to is the 4-4-4-12 Ram which is 2.1v

 

[calyn]

Additionally make sure the XMS2 memory does no require more than 1.95V becausethats the max atm for the M2N-E. If thats the CL5 modules if i remember correctly they should be 1.9V. Look it up to be sure.

I can attest to the PC8500 modules being 1.9V, so I see no reason at all the PC6400C5 modules should be higher.

I am choosing AMD Athlone 3800+ single core. For current generation games, 3800+ is faster than X2 4200+. So I get better performance. Then by the time the games started using dual core advantage, I may be able to upgrade to X2 7600 or something

This is not exactly correct - to the contary. The X2 4200 will always outperform the 3800 single, even in single-core games. And, as Oblivion attests, the first multi-thread games are appearing. Further, with physics being introduced in games multicore really is the way to go.

 

[corvetteguy]

Is there a motherboard that will allow and IDE0 and an IDE1 connection with an EE version of the AMD 64 4200?

sorry i don't know

 

[drcroubie]

If anyone knows of a decent AM2 with 2*ide controllers, i'd like to know too.
but seeing as my largest hdd is 30gb, i'm just gonna bite the bullet and buy a new SATA drive.

I have no interest in SLI currently either, but i'm choosing a $235 M2N-SLI/DXE over a $152 M2N-E (and other 570SLI chipset boards in between), just for future upgradeability, and i've heard a few bad things about the m2n-e (don't ask me off the top of my head, just search these forums). the dual-lan may be useful sometime in the future too...


Also, who knows who has EE chips for sale online? (preferably in australia, or at least with international delivery available)

 

[impreza]

Hmmmph!!! Always a catch...Is there a comparable mobo that allows me to use 2 HDD, and 2 CD?

Yes, but then you have to pick Nvidia 4 serie chip sets. I am building a system for gaming as well. I am choosing AMD Athlone 3800+ single core. For current generation games, 3800+ is faster than X2 4200+. So I get better performance. Then by the time the games started using dual core advantage, I may be able to upgrade to X2 7600 or something.
Well a 3800 is better in most game but next gen games will be multithreaded, as graw maxes out my 4200 on both cores 90-100%

 

[aristotelus]

the ddr2 800 modules from corsair (i use them) use 1.9v

I think there are some s939 socket boards out there with enough connectors for your current drives......lemme check for ya


Yup ASUS A8V-XE has enough IDE connectors for your current drives.
It can be had for as little as 60 dollars/ euros
No need for DDR2 than either.......you can reuse your current memory and maybe add another 512 (2x256) MB of memory
Would definitly go Dual Core.

 

[zeuson]

This is not exactly correct - to the contary. The X2 4200 will always outperform the 3800 single, even in single-core games. And, as Oblivion attests, the first multi-thread games are appearing. Further, with physics being introduced in games multicore really is the way to go.

How did you compare that? I simply looked up the interactive CPU chart at toms hardware. And this is what I have got (Average frame rate in games)

Game Name............3800+ (Venice).......4200 X2 (Manchester)
Doom III 1024..........104.4..........................100.9
Doom III 1280..........83...............................81.9
FarCry......................195.2..........................179.4
QuakeIII...................260.7..........................235.8
Unreal Tour 2004.......163.4 ........................147.1
Wolfstein................... 193.6 .......................177.3

These games are a little old but the newest games have the same pattern. The 3800+ single core outperforms 4200 Duel Core in every game listed. So what do you mean 4200 X2 wins all the time???

And, more ridiculously, what makes you think Oblivion is multi-thread game? Do you think multi-thread plots means the application is multi-threaded to utility multi-core??? Listen, I am a programmer, any software that waiting for user input (includes game of course) must be multi-threaded. But this is fundamentally different to the ones meant to utilise the multi-core power.

And what does physics have anything to do with multi-core????

Speak with facts, not imagination please.

 

[calyn]

How did you compare that? I simply looked up the interactive CPU chart at toms hardware.

In what most people will notice at home the X2 will do better. The benches are very close, but a single-core will have to share it's power with IM's, viruscanner, firewall and all other tasks run at home. The X2 can use one core for the game 100%, while the OS will put all other tasks on the "idle" core as much as possible.

And what does physics have anything to do with multi-core????

Have you even looked at Oblivion??? It wasn't even the first, but it has a physics engine to calculate the physical properties of objects. Apples float in water, while a rock sinks. Bodies slump to the ground etc. That sort of calculation takes CPU power, and a multicore can balance that over it's cores, while the singlecore will really start to slow down. If the app is written to do that.

Not meaning to sound condescending, but as a programmer you should know this.

 

[zeuson]

Ok, Oblivion is indeed one of those very scarce games that support multi-core.

("Current software titles that fully utilize multi-core technologies include: Maya, Blender3D, Quake 3 & 4, Elder Scrolls: Oblivion, Falcon 4: Allied Force, 3DS Max, Adobe Photoshop, Windows XP Professional, Windows 2003, Mac OS X, Linux, GigaSpaces EAG, and many operating systems that are streamlined for server use.")

So lets see how much improvement it has got. AnandTech did the benchmark for us
http://www.anandtech.com/printarticle.aspx?i=2747
For three benchmarks they did, the 4200 X2 is 4.78%, 2.67% and 3.93% faster than 3800+ single core respectively. All less than 5%! And what is the price difference? This actually proves I was right, even when the games starts to support multi-core, the 4200 X2 today doesn't justify the price difference over 3800+ single core. So 3800+ is the one to go TODAY AND TOMORROW. Buy 3800+ today, and get a much improved dual core in the future when your 3800+ struggle to cope, possibly with a price lower than the price difference of 4200 X2 and 3800 today. This is why picking AM2 is really important, 939 probably won't get the new CPU models.

It is worthwhile to note the duel core technology has limits:

* Multi-core processors do not need the operating system (OS) to support them, but instead adjustments to existing software are required to maximize the computing resources provided by multi-core processors. Also, the ability of multi-core processors to increase application performance depends on using multi-threaded applications to optimize the use of resources. For example, most current video games will run faster on a 3 GHz single-core processor than on a 2GHz dual-core, despite the dual-core theoretically having more processing power, because they are incapable of using more than one core at a time.
* Integration of a multi-core chip drives production yields down and they are more difficult to manage thermally than lower-density single-chip designs.
* From an architectural point of view, ultimately, single CPU designs may make better use of the silicon surface area than multiprocessing cores, so a development commitment to this architecture may carry the risk of obsolescence.
* Raw processing power is not the only constraint on system performance. Two processing cores sharing the same system bus and memory bandwidth limits the real-world performance advantage. Even in theory, a dual-core system cannot achieve more than a 70% performance improvement over a single core, and in practice, will most likely achieve less.

 

[calyn]

You forget the subjective experience of a multi-core is a lot higher as overall repsonse is much better.

AMD had some issues with the PM timer getting in the way of fully utilizing the X2. AMD has a patch for that, which should greatly improve performance. So those figures may be quite a bit off. Having read the same article, it's also worth mentioning that HyperThreading achieved a 16% performance improvement. There's nothing preventing an X2 from getting the same level of improvement. It would also depend on manually editing up the ini file to support multithreading better.

Have you looked at the list of expected releases? Many more will support multi-therading in just the coming months, and will have varying levels of physics. This changes the landscape significantly even the coming three to six months.

Are you suggesting to buy that 3800+ now, and having to temporarily upgrade again around christmans, and then once more when K8L is out? I suggest leaving out the first step, going straight for the X2, which most certainly will hold out for another 12 months.



Yes, I am quite aware that multicores will never achieve the performance of the sum of it's cores. Even multiple CPU's on independent buses never will, as there's always overhead. I have built MPS systems for the last 7-8 years. And since then never even considered going back to single CPU systems. Overall system response was just that much better, even with the wasted processing power.



Edit: corrected RTC to PM timer

 

[zeuson]

I am suggesting as this machine is mainly built for gaming (just like mine), the 3800+ will be more cost effective. And the life span for 3800+ should be fairly close to 4200 X2 as far as just gaming is involved. We all know both CPUs won't last very long for gaming purpose. This is actually why I didn't wait for Core 2 Duo because Intel keeps changing their sockets and chipsets which makes upgrading very costly.

 

[calyn]

Agreed, the 3800+ will last for awhile with the current gen games. The coming-soon gen may require a bit more and for the price difference it's worth the extra lifespan the X2 has, as it will still be quite a bit longer than the single-core. The call is up to the original poster, I think there is enough info on single vs dual-core in this thread to make that judgement.

 

[jmacintosh]

No...now I am pretty much as confused as ever...LOL

OK...I just did a little reading about SATA (since I am abhorrantly ignorant about it), and I noticed that the M2N-E supports 6 SATA.
http://www.monarchcomputer.com/Merc...e=M&Product_Code=110776&AFFIL=pricewatch&NR=1

So this means I can hook up 2 SATA HDD still without RAID...right?

How difficult would it be to transfer the stuff off one of my ATA HDD to an SATA Drive?

Also, I have a CD-Rom, and a CD R/RW. Will I be ableto hook both of those up as well?

 

[jmacintosh]

From what I can tell, using SATA drives are not a problem. I would like to transfer what I have on my 2nd HDD (EIDE) to one of the new SATAs. Is that possible?

To update what I was looking at building...

AMD Athlon 64 X2 4200
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16819103739

Asus M2N-E
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813131022

2 Gb (2 x 1Gb Corsair XMS2 DDR2 800
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16820145038

XFX GeForce 7900GT
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814150144

2 Western Digital SATA Hard Drives
1 320 Gb HDD for Multimedia storage
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16822136003

1 120 Gb HDD for Operating System & Programs
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16822136009

One IDE connector on the mobo will allow me to connect my CDRom and my CD R/RW as I do now.

 

[jonnyli]

This is what you would do, put in 1 sata drive, install windows. Unplug your dvdrom and plug in your old hd. transfer the files and plug back in you optical drive. With 6 SATA plugs, you can have 6 hds, and no, you dont need to raid them, thats your choice.

 

[calyn]

I noticed you mentioned the 4200+, but linked to the 4000+. The latter is more expensive, and the extra cache doesn't matter that much. Go for the 4200+, it's $200 cheaper

Other than that, follow jonnyli's instructions to transfer data. And good luck with the build, it looks good.

 

[Onthefarside]

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16822998001


should take care of your hard drives