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Motherboard Makers Overlook A Significant Market Niche !

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August 10, 2006 3:38:04 PM

:idea:

I think it's high time the popular motherboard manufacturers address what I consider to be a serious oversight within motherboard design and marketing. If you're like me, you probably have several PCI pluggin cards which serve various multimedia, network or other functions. You may even have PCI cards which are a part of a proprietary software/hardware bundle.

i.e. Prosumer/professional video editing or high end audio capture, mixing and delivery, or graphics rendering engine/processor.

Most of today's motherboards simply are not equipped with enough PCI slots !!!!!! You might tend to think that since so much is built into the motherboard design itself, then why the need for so many PCI slots ? Look at it this way: Just because users want to upgrade to a faster CPU and memmory does not imply they're also content to throw away all of their PCI cards !

The motherboard manufacturers's failure to address this segment of the market has lead to the creation and growth of a whole new market niche - the PCI COMBO Card ! Such cards have two, even three functions in one, thus overcoming what otherwise could be an upgrade dead end for many users.

There are more than a few of us out there who are VERY happy with our legacy PCI devices and have spent considerable amounts of cash on them over the years. We wish to protect our investment when we look for a reasonable upgrade path to a faster CPU and RAM. I consider it not unreasonable to suggest motherboard makers include with each successive chipset one motherboard model with six PCI slots in addition to all built in devices.
August 10, 2006 3:59:02 PM

what are you talking about?
most mobos come with at least 3 PCI slots, some come with 6, though i think that they are pretty rare today, dont forget that alot of functions that use to be PCI are now built in. LAN, Sound and grfx were all PCI. LAN and sound are now built in to most if not all mobos, unless you get a good one, there is no real point for anyone to get an additional sound card. the grfx slot now has a dedicated slot in PCI-E and AGP
also if worst comes to worst and you dont have enough slots you can get riser cards that plug into PCI slots that give you an additional slot.
also the PCI format is being phased out as it is pretty crap and all the slots share the same bandwidth. unlike PCI-E or AGP which have there own bandwidth
August 10, 2006 6:04:05 PM

Quote:
what are you talking about?
most mobos come with at least 3 PCI slots, some come with 6, though i think that they are pretty rare today, dont forget that alot of functions that use to be PCI are now built in. LAN, Sound and grfx were all PCI. LAN and sound are now built in to most if not all mobos, unless you get a good one, there is no real point for anyone to get an additional sound card. the grfx slot now has a dedicated slot in PCI-E and AGP
also if worst comes to worst and you dont have enough slots you can get riser cards that plug into PCI slots that give you an additional slot.
also the PCI format is being phased out as it is pretty crap and all the slots share the same bandwidth. unlike PCI-E or AGP which have there own bandwidth


:roll: ....Uhh, I think you need to read my post again, because you completely missed the point. Most MOBO's don't even have those three PCI slots to which you refer. NO MOBO's come with 6 PCI anymore ! AS I already pointed out in my original post, the fact that sound, lan and grfx can come built on board in no way precludes the continued usefulness of people's PCI device cards. There are many case scenarios where the on board stuff is simply not enough, or the quality and performance of a seperate PCI card device is far superior to built on stuff. What about those of us who need to use SCSI controlled hard drives as our boot drive in order to meet the specification of certain multi-media apps ? There are more scenarios then you think when it comes to the use of folks legacy devices. Not all of these scenarios are based on performance alone either.
Related resources
August 10, 2006 6:41:17 PM

Oh!
my bad just read it more carefully.
but still confused do you mean that the motherboard companies arnt putting enough PCI slots in or that they dont invest in PCI devices enough?

still my point(s) stand, the PCI regardless of how many slots you have share a set amount of bandwidth, getting more PCI devices means that you reduce the total amount of bandwidth
also one of the major reasons behind the reduced amount of PCI slots is that they are replacing it with PCI-E, granted at the moment it is only being used by Graphics cards, it was i think suppose to become similar to PCI, i mean hell a PCI-E 1X has more bandwidth then a PCI slot
also which mobo's are you looking at? SLI and crossfire prob. cant fit any one even an ATX purely due to size, if you get a mobo that isnt SLI then it should have PCI.
Heck i sometimes think that the only reason they actually add more then one is to make it fill up a larger area and so they can call it an ATX.
fair enough to the RAID controller + SCSI
and other devices such as the multimedia apps programs, i assume that your talking about programs such as reason for making music and other stuff like that, while that is true that they do require a PCI slot. its not really a niche market because its so much smaller then that. and besides the alot of PCI cards can be bought as a USB device, I doubt that the PCI slot will ever make the resurgence that you want it to.
and i dont think that i've ever seen anyone other then professionals that uses SCSI as its soo expensive, and the avarage user wont be willing to spend that much. yes yes you did say niche market and i did say avarage user, lets not get caught on semantics.
the niche market is there, just not with the mainstream stuff
August 10, 2006 7:08:52 PM

Quote:
Oh!
my bad just read it more carefully.
but still confused do you mean that the motherboard companies arnt putting enough PCI slots in or that they dont invest in PCI devices enough?

still my point(s) stand, the PCI regardless of how many slots you have share a set amount of bandwidth, getting more PCI devices means that you reduce the total amount of bandwidth
also one of the major reasons behind the reduced amount of PCI slots is that they are replacing it with PCI-E, granted at the moment it is only being used by Graphics cards, it was i think suppose to become similar to PCI, i mean hell a PCI-E 1X has more bandwidth then a PCI slot
also which mobo's are you looking at? SLI and crossfire prob. cant fit any one even an ATX purely due to size, if you get a mobo that isnt SLI then it should have PCI.
Heck i sometimes think that the only reason they actually add more then one is to make it fill up a larger area and so they can call it an ATX.
fair enough to the RAID controller + SCSI
and other devices such as the multimedia apps programs, i assume that your talking about programs such as reason for making music and other stuff like that, while that is true that they do require a PCI slot. its not really a niche market because its so much smaller then that. and besides the alot of PCI cards can be bought as a USB device, I doubt that the PCI slot will ever make the resurgence that you want it to.
and i dont think that i've ever seen anyone other then professionals that uses SCSI as its soo expensive, and the avarage user wont be willing to spend that much. yes yes you did say niche market and i did say avarage user, lets not get caught on semantics.
the niche market is there, just not with the mainstream stuff


:p  .....Regarding your question about the PCI's, I'm making the point that they do not put enough of them (populate) on the MOBO.

......The point you make about the superior bandwidth afforded by the more modern interfaces of PCI-X, etc would not be required for most legacy PCI pluggin cards. I have PCI cards which have hardware acceleration built into the cards, therefore, a heavily populated MOBO with 6 occupied PCI slots would not strangle the performance or interfear with the other five pluggin PCI cards. This point about shared bandwith strangulation of the PCI bus has been exagerrated by those who are trying to market the new interface (PCI-X).

.....I still return to my point that just because many folks want to upgrade to faster dual core CPU's and faster DDR & DDR2 RAM does not imply they are willing to throw away their collection of PCI device cards to do so ! I can assure you I won't throw out my video/audio capture and delivery board set just because I can't fit it into a PCI-X slot ! I can't even get a proper SCSI card which isn't PCI anyway, nor can I get any other pro audio cards which don't use the standard PCI interface.

.....While we're on the subject of the quality of built in devices on today's MOBO's: The audio quality of built in chips leaves a great deal to be desired ! Although I should mention these device are slowly improving, they are still wayyyyyyyyy far from what you get with a plug in Audio PCI card !

.....Furthermore, the MOBO makers could use higher quality chips, but then the price point of their market would be lost. BTW, I should also point out what bus many of these MOBO's are using for their on board devices - Guess what ? THEY ARE USING THE PCI BUS !!!!!! Surprise ! Surprise !

....I say let them build whatever latest technology they wish into their MOBO's, only, make sure they have at least one board in the family with 6 PCI slots in addition to the on board stuff for legacy device users. Heck, they could even charge more for the board and folks like me would gladly pay to be able to preserve my PCI card set.
August 10, 2006 7:57:51 PM

What's wrong with these ones -->Here<--

edit: And if you can sacrifice one pci slot, you can find some socket 775 boards.
August 10, 2006 8:47:33 PM

I think you are probably in the same position people with a bunch of ISA cards found themselves in 10 years ago. I can't argue that you may indeed have need for that many PCI slots, I just think the market is so small that it's not cost effective to produce such a board.

I handle technology for several companies, and I can't think of a single instance of needing more than 2 PCI slots in any machine in the past several years.
August 10, 2006 8:54:18 PM

Quote:
The point you make about the superior bandwidth afforded by the more modern interfaces of PCI-X, etc would not be required for most legacy PCI pluggin cards. I have PCI cards which have hardware acceleration built into the cards, therefore, a heavily populated MOBO with 6 occupied PCI slots would not strangle the performance or interfear with the other five pluggin PCI cards. This point about shared bandwith strangulation of the PCI bus has been exagerrated by those who are trying to market the new interface (PCI-X).


I wasn't going to post anything here, but I have to set things straight:

PCI-Express is a different bus and interface than PCI-X.

PCI-X is an upgraded version of PCI, developed to improve bandwidth of it and is mostly used in server market, due to being compatible with older PCI. (Try looking for boards with this slot, so you won't miss the use of your older devices :)  )

PCI-Express is a totally new interface developed by Intel, and most of the available devices for it are video cards, but there are some Gigabit Ethernet cards available as well (tough a little bit hard to find).

On behalf of PCI devices, there are a lot of Professional devices that use PCI add-in cards to communicate with the computer, so it'll probably still take a long time for it to die. Also, as video cards use 16 channels (x16), and few chipsets have more than 20 channels for PCI-E, there's not much room for multiple PCI-E devices on a board.

Last, but not least, there're some nice on-board audio devices, like the ones on the DFI boards (Kajaran) and the ones on MSI top boards (they use Creative Soundblasters).
a c 89 V Motherboard
August 10, 2006 9:34:15 PM

I agree that this is a niche market. The problem with these markets however is that they can be so small, that no one wants to fill them. (cost to motherboard manufactures to high.) I understand as well as anyone the idea of using cards, its a habit of mine... Sometimes things can be upgraded. Do people these days really need USB2 cards? Most modern motherboards come with 8, some even have 10. Do you really need more? You can also find motherboards that have SCSI built in, but I'll be the first to admit that the SCSI on a motherboard is probably nowhere near what some users need.
To answer your question, I believe it is a two part problem. First, the number of people willing to buy such boards is small, making it hard for companies to make money. (people want 16X SLI/CF, not 5 pci slots.) Second, for whatever reason, adoption of PCIe 1X cards has been slow. As with all transitions, this will change. How long, I have no idea.
Doing a search on newegg, I have found the following. All of these boards use AGP, so if your gaming this might be a problem.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813136167
DFI board, Socket 754, 5 PCI slots, a mere $47 counting shipping.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813153029
Jetway Socket 939, 5 PCI slots, runs $58 counting shipping. (Not sure I'd buy this one, support seems a little lacking...)
If Intel is your cup of tea, try these.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813130467
MSI, Socket 478, 5 PCI slots, costs $70 counting shipping.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813136156
DFI, Socket 775, 5 PCI slots, $82 counting shipping.
Yes these all lack PCIe video, but they have 5 slots. If your using this computer to use video/audio cards, I would think you don't need PCIe video to make them work. (such cards have their own processors on them.) If your willing to drop down to 4 PCI slots, then some more options are available, such as these.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813130524 (Socket 939, 4 PCI slots.) There are even AM2 models out. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813138026 Boards that will do the job are out there, but you will have to give up something. Full featured these days means SLI, not 5 slots of "outdated" technology.
August 10, 2006 10:15:35 PM

I can't possibly understand what the average consumer would need more than 3 PCI slots for?

You mention pro video editing, audio capture / editing, graphics rendering, networking, etc.

Networking? Motherboard built-in.

WiFi? Motherboard built-in / USB adapter.

Video Editing / Audio Editing - PCI or Firewire.

Graphics rendering - PCI-E

Hundreds of other devices - USB2 or Firewire


So I really can't understand the burning desire for legacy PCI devices. Ever since AGP and integrated firewire/usb most people would find it hard to fill 3 PCI slots. We now have integrated SATA, and even WiFi in some boards.
August 10, 2006 10:25:13 PM

Quote:
I agree that this is a niche market. The problem with these markets however is that they can be so small, that no one wants to fill them. (cost to motherboard manufactures to high.) I understand as well as anyone the idea of using cards, its a habit of mine... Sometimes things can be upgraded. Do people these days really need USB2 cards? Most modern motherboards come with 8, some even have 10. Do you really need more? You can also find motherboards that have SCSI built in, but I'll be the first to admit that the SCSI on a motherboard is probably nowhere near what some users need.
To answer your question, I believe it is a two part problem. First, the number of people willing to buy such boards is small, making it hard for companies to make money. (people want 16X SLI/CF, not 5 pci slots.) Second, for whatever reason, adoption of PCIe 1X cards has been slow. As with all transitions, this will change. How long, I have no idea.
Doing a search on newegg, I have found the following. All of these boards use AGP, so if your gaming this might be a problem.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813136167
DFI board, Socket 754, 5 PCI slots, a mere $47 counting shipping.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813153029
Jetway Socket 939, 5 PCI slots, runs $58 counting shipping. (Not sure I'd buy this one, support seems a little lacking...)
If Intel is your cup of tea, try these.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813130467
MSI, Socket 478, 5 PCI slots, costs $70 counting shipping.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813136156
DFI, Socket 775, 5 PCI slots, $82 counting shipping.
Yes these all lack PCIe video, but they have 5 slots. If your using this computer to use video/audio cards, I would think you don't need PCIe video to make them work. (such cards have their own processors on them.) If your willing to drop down to 4 PCI slots, then some more options are available, such as these.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813130524 (Socket 939, 4 PCI slots.) There are even AM2 models out. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813138026 Boards that will do the job are out there, but you will have to give up something. Full featured these days means SLI, not 5 slots of "outdated" technology.


:D  ....Thanks for the tips on getting the boards I require to continue using my legacy devices. Also thanks to someone else here(Sorry, I have to look again to see who you are) for providing me with leads as well. Unfortunately, I require 6 PCI slots minimum, but I can also save the use of three PCI's by going with a PCI COMBO Card solution. I found this useful card at computergeeks.com http://www.geeks.com/details.asp?InvtId=1016-0018-000A&...
Between your kind suggestions for possible motherboards and this COMBO card route, I maybe able to navigate a decent CPU and Memmory upgrade ? Can anyone on this thread help me locate an Intel Core Duo CPU/DDR2 667 MOBO with 5 or more PCI slots ??
August 10, 2006 11:03:23 PM

I will agree for now they should keep 3 PCI slots. More then that im not sure its needed. But its the way of tech to move foreward. Someday you will not be able to buy a mobo with any PCI slots. I hope by then Creative Labs has the issue with PCIe worked out :) 
August 10, 2006 11:19:58 PM

As someone mentioned earlier, you may want to look into server boards. Get one that supports woodcrest (core2 of the server world) and make sure it has plenty PCI-X slots. Since they are compatible with your PCI cards, you would be able to get the board to work with modern hardware. You could also easily have a dual proc board with up to 16 gb of dimms. Not to mention the 64 bit compatibility. But all this comes with a price, and this one isn't easy to swallow. I wouldn't be surprised if a setup like I mentioned here would top 10 grand.

Also, there are many PCI-E cards out there to fit needs. There are plenty of SATA Raid, Ethernet, USB/Firewire, and I believe there are even come SCSI controllers out there. Unfortunately, there seems to be a lack of sound cards out there right now.

So, it seems you have two options, and both are going to be expensive. You seem to have weighed them already, and you have come to the frustrating conclusion that you won't be able to save any money this upgrade cycle. Sorry, but PCI is becoming more outdated by the day and will be completely gone by (i believe) the middle of next year. Looks like its time to get to figuring out what you really need.
August 11, 2006 12:54:10 AM

Quote:
I can't possibly understand what the average consumer would need more than 3 PCI slots for?

You mention pro video editing, audio capture / editing, graphics rendering, networking, etc.

Networking? Motherboard built-in.

WiFi? Motherboard built-in / USB adapter.

Video Editing / Audio Editing - PCI or Firewire.

Graphics rendering - PCI-E

Hundreds of other devices - USB2 or Firewire


So I really can't understand the burning desire for legacy PCI devices. Ever since AGP and integrated firewire/usb most people would find it hard to fill 3 PCI slots. We now have integrated SATA, and even WiFi in some boards.


Well, the thing is that you don't use certain PCI devices. But people that have the need for expensive professional devices, usually end up having them on PCI interface. For instance, when I used to work in a Telecom Tech Development & Research Laboratory, we had some very expensive hardware (osciloscopes, spectral analysis stuff, etc) that would be compatible with PC through PCI cards. Each of these equipment would cost a FEW THOUSAND dollars. This kind of legacy devices are too be used for more than 10 years (and motherboards do have a tendency of being upgraded from time to time, as cpu makers have the bad habit of changing sockets frequently), so you need a lot of PCI slots on your equipment.
My point is that (I'm not specificaly aiming at you) people around here sometimes have the habit of telling others that they don't need to use such devices without knowing the reason why someone is asking for it.

Quote:
Between your kind suggestions for possible motherboards and this COMBO card route, I maybe able to navigate a decent CPU and Memmory upgrade ? Can anyone on this thread help me locate an Intel Core Duo CPU/DDR2 667 MOBO with 5 or more PCI slots ??


DFI has some interesting industrial directed boards at their site, and most of them are full of PCI and PCI-X ports, take a look at this one:

7 PCI slot Board

Unfortunately, I don't think you'll be able to use Core 2 Duo on it. But you can use a P4 sk 775 and it has a PCI-E x16 slot, DDR2, 8 usb ports, gigabit ethernet and other features
August 11, 2006 3:04:01 AM

what PCI components do you have?
apparently you have more then 3 so can you list them?

also in response
"While we're on the subject of the quality of built in devices on today's MOBO's: The audio quality of built in chips leaves a great deal to be desired ! Although I should mention these device are slowly improving, they are still wayyyyyyyyy far from what you get with a plug in Audio PCI card !"
can you honestly notice the difference when you have a 2.1 setup? or even a 4.1? unless your willing to spend like $150 on a creative X-Fi your not gonna know the difference? and besides alot of onboard are coming with 8 channel surround now. which was one of the major grevences before because they could only handle 2 or 4 channels

".....Furthermore, the MOBO makers could use higher quality chips, but then the price point of their market would be lost. BTW, I should also point out what bus many of these MOBO's are using for their on board devices - Guess what ? THEY ARE USING THE PCI BUS !!!!!! Surprise ! Surprise "

what are you complaining about? you said that you can get better ones, you dont have to use the onboard stuff. if you dont, then it wont use the bandwidth...
also since as you've said they share the same bandwidth, i.e. 133MB/S max, 2 devices have a total of around 66MB/S each, 3 have 40MB/S odd etc.

....I say let them build whatever latest technology they wish into their MOBO's, only, make sure they have at least one board in the family with 6 PCI slots in addition to the on board stuff for legacy device users. Heck, they could even charge more for the board and folks like me would gladly pay to be able to preserve my PCI card set.

get a server board, it has 7 PCI slots and is designed for legacy devices, even meets your requirement of costing a bit more

if worse comes to worst get one of these
http://www.tmc-uk.com/supports/general_faqs/riser_card....
not the pure pcb ones but a ribbon cable one, that way 1 becomes 3
August 11, 2006 4:03:40 AM

:D  ...Thank you Sviola & Supremelaw for your excellent MOBO links and suggestions ! Wow ! 7 PCI slots ! Now we're talking ! You see, I have a $15,000.00 Video and Audio capture and delivery three full length PCI board sandwich which eats up three PCI's in one shot ! I also must add a hefty dual channel SCSI controller card to make this baby work, so now we're at four PCI's. Next I must add another SCSI card to run my antiquated, but really good external Ultra SCSI stuff and this makes 5 PCI's eaten up. Now I must add a combo card with USB 2.0, Gigabit Ethernet and firewire to run digi-camcorders. This combo card would be unecessary with MOBO's that have built in 1394 and USB 2.0 and giga-Lan of course. What I would really like to do is step forward with all of my antiquated, but money making PCI cards and go DDR2 667 RAM with Core Duo Intel CPU. Can this be done or am I dreaming ?
August 11, 2006 12:32:32 PM

Quote:
> DFI has some interesting industrial directed boards at their site, and most of them are full of PCI and PCI-X ports, take a look at this one:
> 7 PCI slot Board


Thanks for the link: that's a unique slot layout for LGA-775.


> Unfortunately, I don't think you'll be able to use Core 2 Duo on it. But you can use a P4 sk 775 and it has a PCI-E x16 slot


I clicked on the larger image, but I don't see the PCI-E x16 slot.

Can you point it out, please?


Sincerely yours,
/s/ Paul Andrew Mitchell
Webmaster, Supreme Law Library
http://www.supremelaw.org/


Sorry for that, I didn't open the pic on the board, only read the specifications resume, and it listed PCI-E. But after you pointed out this, I went to check it and it does not have a PCI-E slot. :( 

This one has the PCI-E x16 and also a PCI-E x1, but it has only 4 PCI slots, tough:

Other DFI Board
August 11, 2006 12:57:17 PM

Quote:
What I would really like to do is step forward with all of my antiquated, but money making PCI cards and go DDR2 667 RAM with Core Duo Intel CPU. Can this be done or am I dreaming ?


Now I do think you are dreaming. When I briefly scanned your original posts I thought you meant you wanted to jump forward to that type of platform, which would mean you wouldn't find a board to support the new processors and still have 6 pci slots. You may be able to find a server board like that, but off the top of my head I don't know of anything. I'll look around and I'm sure the guys helping you here will as well. My gut tells me you are going to have to compromise and go with the boards already linked to you.
August 11, 2006 1:28:30 PM

He's already said why he wants 6, and it's been covered that the vast majority of people don't need more than a few....but, he does.
August 11, 2006 1:28:48 PM

You're really not making much sense. Tyan makes all sorts of boards with on-board SCSI, hardly any decent MB doesn't have firewire, usb, and dual-giga lan. A $15k PCI video and audio card can't begin to compete with current $3k PCIe x16 versions. Simply no way they could keep up with such a fraction of the bandwidth. Sounds like you need a DECENT baord, and the very most, ONE PCI slot for your LEGACY audio/video equipment, it just has to be in a position that allows for the extra two slots to be covered without issue, right?
August 11, 2006 2:21:18 PM

Quote:
A $15k PCI video and audio card can't begin to compete with current $3k PCIe x16 versions.


The point is that he wants to use his old equipment and not purchase new $3000 cards, and I can't blame him.

Not sure if this has been suggested or not, but one thing the original poster might look into is a large case. Depending on how his 3-card-sandwich video/audio card is made, he might be able to insert it into the bottom most PCI slot, and if the motheboard is mounted with sufficient room below the motherboard, the pci card sandwich card would extend below the motherboard and only take up the 1 pci slot. That might be something to consider and allow him to upgrade to the newest platform.
August 11, 2006 3:30:06 PM

What films have you directed?
August 11, 2006 5:01:15 PM

Understand that, but this really isn't any different than the "Should I upgrade from AGP to PCIe x16" questions we get CONSTANTLY. Hardly seems worth upgrading the system when the major bottleneck with stay the same.
August 11, 2006 5:04:01 PM

Quote:
You're really not making much sense. Tyan makes all sorts of boards with on-board SCSI, hardly any decent MB doesn't have firewire, usb, and dual-giga lan. A $15k PCI video and audio card can't begin to compete with current $3k PCIe x16 versions. Simply no way they could keep up with such a fraction of the bandwidth. Sounds like you need a DECENT baord, and the very most, ONE PCI slot for your LEGACY audio/video equipment, it just has to be in a position that allows for the extra two slots to be covered without issue, right?


......$15K PCI vs $3K PCIe x16. You wanna make a bet ? Again, this is not really a performance issue with me. In the world of broadcast video and on line/off line film match back editing, PCI is the interface of choice with on die (On card) hardware acceleration. On die acceleration renders the PCI card - bus independent performance wise. Again, I understand your point about greater bandwidth with the PCIe x16 bus, but I'm not a gamer and I can get the same level of performance (BUT not speed of operation) from a P II 350 Mhz as I get from a P IV Northwood Celeron with my PCI cards.[/code]
August 11, 2006 5:06:59 PM

I don't see it really as being the same because he's probably looking at a good jump in CPU speed assuming he's got a machine several years old. But, it's his decision in the end.

ADDED: Filmdirector beat me to it. :wink:
August 11, 2006 5:07:23 PM

surely you wouldnt get an ordinary motherboard anyway, i mean, hell why would you buy a $120 motherboard when you've got a 15,000 dollar vid/audio capture card, dont you think that it really should be matched?
get a Xeon or opteron server board. that way the board will be designed to for heavy duty (which hopefully means that they use better components, god help the company that burns out my 15,000 dollars worth of equepment.) and is designed for use with SCSI. i mean, who can honestly really afford an SCSI hard drive? when i say that i mean enthuseist which is where most motherboards are aimed at.
hell, by the sound of it you have over 20,000 dollars tied in PCI stuff...if i were you, just buy a new PC for games or whatever and keep your existing for editing...or if it is possible use the gigabyte LAN use one for editing and the other for data crunching
though i wonder if it is possible to setup a small cluster to do this, i know knoppix has a cluster version, though what you can do on it i dont know

edit: this is just a pre-emptive, my spelling does suck.
August 11, 2006 5:27:34 PM

Quote:

......$15K PCI vs $3K PCIe x16.
[/code]

also about this, advancement in technology, it is possible that a card that could have costed 15K is beaten by a 3K card, all we know is that the 15K is within the past 10 years, might be that the technology has moved and become mainstream, think for example moore's law, technology will double every 18 months due to the size of a transistor shrinking, so it is possible that a 15K is beaten by a 3K...atleast with the info you've given us. you have honestly peaked my interest though, what is the name of the hardware please? did it come with dedicated software?

and i think maybe that he's thinking of graphics cards...somehow you bought a 15K PCI grfx card here....
August 11, 2006 5:32:49 PM

Quote:
surely you wouldnt get an ordenary motherboard anyway, i mean, hell why would you buy a $120 motherboard when you've got a 15,000 dollar vid/audio capture card, dont you think that it really should be matched?
get a Xeon or opteron server board. that way the board will be designed to for heavy duty (which hopefully means that they use better components, god help the company that burns out my 15,000 dollars worth of equepment.) and is designed for use with SCSI. i mean, who can honestly really afford an SCSI hard drive? when i say that i mean enthuseist which is where most motherboards are aimed at.
hell, by the sound of it you have over 20,000 dollars tied in PCI stuff...if i were you, just buy a new PC for games or whatever and keep your existing for editing...or if it is possible use the gigabyte LAN use one for editing and the other for data crunching
though i wonder if it is possible to setup a small cluster to do this, i know knoppix has a cluster version, though what you can do on it i dont know


:p  ....Actually, some of the high end enthusiast MOBO's (We call them prosumer) have yielded more than excellent results. In fact, I have been able to get far superior results with Asus and Aopen P III prosumer boards than with my Asus P4S533 Northwood CPU enthusiast MOBO. So why spend the extra money if you don't have to ? The P4 Asus Northwood MOBO is a major disappointment and was definitely a full step backwards from the actual working level of performance we were getting from the world of Intel P III. We stayed with it for a few years because it has 6 PCI's plus on board Lan and audio, but the USB is only 1.1 and no good. The Intel Northwood CPU has got to be the worst performing CPU Intel ever made on top of that not so great MOBO.

......I have looked at the server boards. There are some which I think are intriguing and worth the extra cash, but they don't seem to be qualified for dual core, which is where I really want to go now. Some of my rendering of video effects is 12 x hardware based with the PCI card set, while other rendering is completely software based, thus is at the mercy of the CPU strength, OS settings and MOBO bus design. It is with software rendering, where I can see an improvement with faster DDR2 667 Mhz RAM and Dual Core CPU crunching.

8O ....I did not know that PCI-X is backward compatible with standard 32 bit PCI ? Someone here pointed this out. Thank you :p 
August 11, 2006 5:51:51 PM

Quote:

......$15K PCI vs $3K PCIe x16.
[/code]

also about this, advancement in technology, it is possible that a card that could have costed 15K is beaten by a 3K card, all we know is that the 15K is within the past 10 years, might be that the technology has moved and become mainstream, think for example moore's law, technology will double every 18 months due to the size of a transistor shrinking, so it is possible that a 15K is beaten by a 3K...atleast with the info you've given us. you have honestly peaked my interest though, what is the name of the hardware please? did it come with dedicated software?

and i think maybe that he's thinking of graphics cards...somehow you bought a 15K PCI grfx card here....

:D  ....I am using a proprietary nt 4.0 based editing solution by DPS called The Perception RT (For Real Time) Dual Stream NTSC 720 x 486 SD broadcast editor with bundled Video Action editing software. My system can run only on NT4.0 with Service Pack 3 or higher as well as W2K Pro (Which has proper USB drivers in the OS). My system has full RS422 deck control for multiple deck batch capture and full frame sync accurate batch recapture at full (On line broadcast resolution). I can also do LTC SMPTE Time Code and window dubbing based on time line position or clip based from source tape code. This is a VERY, VERY high end, real time dual stream FAST editor. I can scrub in real time, preview in real time, sound mix and edit in real time. I can title in real time and transitions in all real time. I can playback 2 hour plus time lines without audio or video glitches. It is an Ultra SCSI based system wich reads and writes the video to it's own seperate video SCSI array with it's own on board Ultra Wide 68 Pin SCSI controller off of the video card ! THe Perception RT writes the audio to a seperate hard drive (Also must be SCSI) in modified PCM WAV format with a pointer to where the video file is at. My editor uses virtual file technology and is simultaneously available as an image sequence in the Targa, bitmap, PICT, TIFF, SGX and several other totally pro codecs for image manipulation. I seriously doubt your PCIe x 16 @ 3K could beat it. I think the company has a new board which is only ONE (1) board and is a PCIe x 16 solution, but it is $25K US plus, plus plus ! Yep, that beats it. 8)
August 11, 2006 6:11:51 PM

Quote:
Doesnt sound like motherboard makers are overlooking any niche at all.
99.9% of us do not need more than 1 or 2 pci slots.
In fact it looks like your trying to do professional class work on the cheap. You simply need a special motherboard. You expect the mobo makers to put 5-6 pci slots on a mobo, for your little .1%. :roll:


:? ....No. Of course not. I'm only suggesting that legacy PCI card users are a niche market and I wouldn't think most legacy users, wether they be high end PCI or low end necessarily want to throw away their device cards just because they want to upgrade to a faster CPU and RAM. When one is in business, one does try and save some money where possible. Please understand the manufacturer of my editing PCI board set specified the use of consumer P II and P III boards from Asus and Tyan orginally when I purchased my system in 1998. The DPS system's specifications were one of the reasons why I purchased this sytem, because I did not have to build a special PC to make it operate correctly. At the time of purchase in '98, the DPS editor was revolutionary, because it was the first proprietary editing solution for broadcast which did not cost $150,000.00 US and came as a simple PCI plug in kit !
August 11, 2006 6:30:37 PM

Well, all that aside.

Did you notice my suggestion above about mounting the motherboard in a large case, and using your special card in the lower most PCI slot? Will that help your situation at all?

Also, since you can use W2k, this might be a moot point, but I think you would probably have a hard time finding drivers for some of the new chipsets to use on NT. Maybe I'm wrong, but like I said, you can use w2k so you should be OK for several more years.
August 11, 2006 6:33:56 PM

My brother-in-law and myself both do a bit of video editing. Your needs are being determined by a specific setup that is controlled by its manufacturer. High end, specific stuff is NEVER what the people using it think it is. Case in point: Quadro versus GeForce- the hardware is darn near identical, but what's "unlocked" is different. If forced to buy a new printer from ADP (I'm in the auto industry and they are the biggest name in our specifc software and hardware needs) I'll pay an arm and a leg for it. However, it still says "Lexmark" underneath the ADP sticker. I understand completely how the processor(s) on the card are independent in what they are processing from the CPU, itself. Doesn't change the fact that the communication between the two will be the bottleneck. There's a good RAID example of this up already.
August 11, 2006 6:36:28 PM

Quote:
Well, all that aside.

Did you notice my suggestion above about mounting the motherboard in a large case, and using your special card in the lower most PCI slot? Will that help your situation at all?


:)  ....No. I cannot do this because the specification calls for you to place the three board set in the highest possible PCI card slots on the MOBO. The reason for this is because these cards are IRQ pigs. These cards will not "share" the interrupt with other devices in the system. The DPS cards must be assured a high enough order during the system boot so as not to have their playback affected by other devices interfearing with these cards jumping on and off of the IRQ's they need to work.
August 11, 2006 6:42:31 PM

Quote:
My brother-in-law and myself both do a bit of video editing. Your needs are being determined by a specific setup that is controlled by its manufacturer. High end, specific stuff is NEVER what the people using it think it is. Case in point: Quadro versus GeForce- the hardware is darn near identical, but what's "unlocked" is different. If forced to buy a new printer from ADP (I'm in the auto industry and they are the biggest name in our specifc software and hardware needs) I'll pay an arm and a leg for it. However, it still says "Lexmark" underneath the ADP sticker. I understand completely how the processor(s) on the card are independent in what they are processing from the CPU, itself. Doesn't change the fact that the communication between the two will be the bottleneck. There's a good RAID example of this up already.


:p  ....Uhhn, no. These cards are designed to overcome the natural system bottleneck by using their on board harware accelerators and reading and writing their video information directly to the hard drives using their own proprietary controller, thus bypassing the system bus completely and avioding any possible bottleneck caused by it. However, I think the audio is written through the system bus, as it is only 128K a second data rate for WAV ?
August 11, 2006 6:43:02 PM

You might be able to assign IRQ's in the bios, have you tried that. I know many boards allow you to do that, and to also reserve IRQ's in some cases.

Perhaps you could experiment with that in your current machine and see if it will work, and if so, investigate it in your new machine to see if it is available before you put it together.

I can see that back in 98 there was a problem with IRQ's, but that may not be as much of a problem today, especially if you use w2k over NT.
August 11, 2006 6:45:24 PM

You contradict yourself. First you say it completely bypasses anything it needs to communicate to the CPU for, then you explain the IRQ and "pinging" issue. I'm pretty darn sure no one is understanding why you're bothering to upgrade at all at this point. Suite yourself.
August 11, 2006 6:48:12 PM

Quote:
:p  ....Uhhn, no. These cards are designed to overcome the natural system bottleneck by using their on board harware accelerators and reading and writing their video information directly to the hard drives using their own proprietary controller, thus bypassing the system bus completely and avioding any possible bottleneck caused by it. However, I think the audio is written through the system bus, as it is only 128K a second data rate for WAV ?


I understand that. It is a "band-aid" solution. If there was the available bandwidth to do it another way, they wouldn't have done this at the time. There wasn't then. There is now. LEGACY. Do you really think the processor(s) on your card are faster than new revision ones that do the same thing?
August 11, 2006 6:51:42 PM

Quote:
How about the Soltek SL865PRO


:)  ....O.K. but it says this product is no longer available and doesn't answer the question if it will take a dual core CPU ?
August 11, 2006 6:56:01 PM

Quote:
Do you really think the processor(s) on your card are faster than new revision ones that do the same thing?


:D  .....No
August 11, 2006 6:59:01 PM

Quote:
sounds like you could use an amd 4x4.pretty easilly,but you will apparently be hard pressed to find a solution like you are talking about.
tyan used to have server boards with alot of pci's,i cant find any .
what are others using in your line of work?


....Newer Tyan boards with PCIe x 16, but the newer DPS hardware is designed for it. Unfortunately for yours truly, mine is not :( 
August 11, 2006 7:07:34 PM

Quote:
and you are trying to get the most from your legacy stuff?right?
im still on protools 001,so i understand,its still relevant technology,and it costs enough to not throw away.
still you could plan for 4x4 and when you can afford it minimize the old ones workload.youre kinda up a creek ,its all new or keepin the oldy goin.
perhaps you should talk to tyan reps,or someone ?


:)  ...Could you expand on the 4x4 please ?
August 11, 2006 7:11:10 PM

4X4 IS NOT the answer. Honestly think that there will be hardly any PCI slots on an enthusiast board aimed at the dual GPU market? 4x4 is a dual socket design that does not require the ECC memory the regular opteron boards use, and it has more enthusiast level tech, not workstation tech. It won't be out for at least a few months, either. What's wrong with the board I selected?
August 11, 2006 7:18:52 PM

Quote:
What's wrong with the board I selected?


:p  ....Oh. Nothing ! This looks like a possible solution ! I book marked it and I'm going to go back to check it out more thoroughly. Thanks. Technically, DPS says it's stuff is designed to work with Intel CPU's only, but I once had it working perfectly with an old AMD k-6-2 350 Mhz. I'm pretty sure my stuff will work with AMD just fine.
August 11, 2006 7:21:07 PM

The Tyan Tomcat h1000S (S3950) can handle an AM2 dual core CPU and has the M7902 SO-DIMM addin card for scsi Ultra320 support based on Adaptec® AIC-7901X.

and has 4 PCI slots, built in dual gigaLAN and 2 USB2.0 ports.

Also a PCI-X slot which could be used for 1394 firewire card.
August 11, 2006 7:25:19 PM

Quote:
8O ....I did not know that PCI-X is backward compatible with standard 32 bit PCI ? Someone here pointed this out. Thank you :p 


If you want to know a little more about PCI-X, take a look at this article:

http://www.pcisig.com/specifications/pcix_20/


The last revision to PCI-X (2.0) added 533 MHz of bandwith (32 times faster than traditional PCI, and remained backwards compatible) :o 
August 11, 2006 7:27:52 PM

NO, don't get anyone confused now. Socket 940 is NOT AM2. AM2 has 940 pins, but it's called AM2 because they are arranged differently and not compatable. The board uses 200 series opteron processors you can buy today.
August 11, 2006 7:29:47 PM

Quote:
Good things come in small packages - introducing the Tomcat h1000S (S3950). Featuring support for a single AMD "AM2" socket processor
- from Tyans website....AM2
August 11, 2006 7:29:58 PM

Quote:
The Tyan Tomcat h1000S (S3950) can handle an AM2 dual core CPU and has the M7902 SO-DIMM addin card for scsi Ultra320 support based on Adaptec® AIC-7901X.

and has 4 PCI slots, built in dual gigaLAN and 2 USB2.0 ports.

Also a PCI-X slot which could be used for 1394 firewire card.


:p  :p  :p  ....Wow ! Now this is what I'm talking about ! This is a NICE board ! The PCI -X is backward compatible with standard (Legacy) PCI ?
!