Inks for i400 and i950 printer

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

Because of problems with Canon i950, I bought a Canon ip4000 this afternoon.
What I noticed was the differences in numbers of ink carts. Six ink
carts were used for i950, but only 5 carts for ip4000. Two black carts
BCL-6BK and BCL-3eBK must be installed for ip4000. I am confused on
this. Are these two different colors? What's the heck two black colors?
Could someone tell me what is the difference between two black carts?
Secondly, with 5 colors could ip4000 produce good color prints as i950?
Satoshi
50 answers Last reply
More about inks i400 i950 printer
  1. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    > Hmmm...I've always wondered about this, too. Are the two blacks the same
    > 'color', but pigmented is better for use on non-coated, or high rag
    > content, whereas dye based is for photographic papers?

    I have both the mp760 and an ip3000 which as no dye black. The pigment
    black ends up being very flat on glossy paper and adds an almost raised
    effect on photos in contrast to the dye colors. Some friends saw the
    first output from the ip3000 and liked it because the blacks looked
    blacker then another printer I had that used dye everything. I
    disagree but hey strongly but hey, given my application for the ip3000
    is cd printing i'm not too worried about it.

    The pigmented black is cool because it's big and tends to cost you less
    per page than the 15ml tiny dye black.
  2. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    You should be more than pleased with the output from the iP4000. I prefer it
    to the my i950. The iP4000 lacks the PM & PC tanks but I haven't noticed
    that as a problem. If anything it's an advantage since the pinkish tint
    problem that seems to plague so many i950 printers has not been a problem
    with the iP4000. As to the black ink question, the BCI-6bk tank (photo
    black) is dye based and is used for printing with all paper settings. The
    BCI-3ebk is pigmented black and is only used for plain paper mode. You will
    also see it referred to as text black or used for text printing, but that is
    incorrect. The pigmented black is used for both text and photos (how would
    the printer know anyway?), but only in plain paper mode. It is not used for
    any other paper settings.
    --
    Ron

    "satoshi" <satoshi@thuntek.net> wrote in message
    news:d9fio1$o56$1@reader2.nmix.net...
    > Because of problems with Canon i950, I bought a Canon ip4000 this
    > afternoon.
    > What I noticed was the differences in numbers of ink carts. Six ink
    > carts were used for i950, but only 5 carts for ip4000. Two black carts
    > BCL-6BK and BCL-3eBK must be installed for ip4000. I am confused on
    > this. Are these two different colors? What's the heck two black colors?
    > Could someone tell me what is the difference between two black carts?
    > Secondly, with 5 colors could ip4000 produce good color prints as i950?
    > Satoshi
    >
  3. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    "Ron Cohen" <d+r+c+0+2+3@sbcXXXglobalYYY.ZZZnet> wrote in
    news:elJue.1845$W74.192@newssvr30.news.prodigy.com:

    > You should be more than pleased with the output from the iP4000. I
    > prefer it to the my i950. The iP4000 lacks the PM & PC tanks but I
    > haven't noticed that as a problem. If anything it's an advantage since
    > the pinkish tint problem that seems to plague so many i950 printers
    > has not been a problem with the iP4000. As to the black ink question,
    > the BCI-6bk tank (photo black) is dye based and is used for printing
    > with all paper settings. The BCI-3ebk is pigmented black and is only
    > used for plain paper mode. You will also see it referred to as text
    > black or used for text printing, but that is incorrect. The pigmented
    > black is used for both text and photos (how would the printer know
    > anyway?), but only in plain paper mode. It is not used for any other
    > paper settings.

    Hmmm...I've always wondered about this, too. Are the two blacks the same
    'color', but pigmented is better for use on non-coated, or high rag
    content, whereas dye based is for photographic papers?

    I just printed the same text document twice, both times on plain paper,
    but once using the plain paper setting, and once using the Photo Paper
    Pro setting (Canon MP760). Both looked the same 'color', but the plain
    paper setting produced a slightly, but noticable, crisper output.

    Sincerely,
    Bruce
  4. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    "Bruce" <parcxman@netscape.net> wrote in message
    news:Xns967EC65ADE10Dparcxmannetscapenet@216.196.97.136...

    > Hmmm...I've always wondered about this, too. Are the two blacks the same
    > 'color', but pigmented is better for use on non-coated, or high rag
    > content, whereas dye based is for photographic papers?

    Yes, the pigmented ink is not generally compatible with glossy photo papers.
    Additionally, the drop size for the pigmented black is generally much larger
    than for the dye based black. The pigmented printhead is tuned for text
    printing, the dye based printhead is tuned for graphics and photos.

    > I just printed the same text document twice, both times on plain paper,
    > but once using the plain paper setting, and once using the Photo Paper
    > Pro setting (Canon MP760). Both looked the same 'color', but the plain
    > paper setting produced a slightly, but noticable, crisper output.

    The pigmented black ink will generally giver sharper edge definition. Also,
    printing with photo paper selected uses more ink and may have exceeded the
    capacity of plain paper to handle it.

    Regards,
    Bob Headrick, MS MVP Printing/Imaging
  5. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    Thanks Ron for your informative posting.
    Before I got i950, I also bought Canon s520. I still use S520 at home.
    s520 uses BCI-3eBK. When I looked at both BCI-3eBK and BCI-6BK, they did
    not say whether they are pigment- or dye-based inks.
    I now used OEM BCI-3eBK ink. The OEM label did not say either. Could
    you tell me how to tell pigmented black from dye-based black.
    I might have used both without knowing whether they are pigment- or
    dye-based ink. satoshi


    "Ron Cohen" <d+r+c+0+2+3@sbcXXXglobalYYY.ZZZnet> wrote in message
    news:elJue.1845$W74.192@newssvr30.news.prodigy.com...
    > You should be more than pleased with the output from the iP4000. I prefer
    > it to the my i950. The iP4000 lacks the PM & PC tanks but I haven't
    > noticed that as a problem. If anything it's an advantage since the pinkish
    > tint problem that seems to plague so many i950 printers has not been a
    > problem with the iP4000. As to the black ink question, the BCI-6bk tank
    > (photo black) is dye based and is used for printing with all paper
    > settings. The BCI-3ebk is pigmented black and is only used for plain paper
    > mode. You will also see it referred to as text black or used for text
    > printing, but that is incorrect. The pigmented black is used for both text
    > and photos (how would the printer know anyway?), but only in plain paper
    > mode. It is not used for any other paper settings.
    > --
    > Ron
    >
  6. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    If you are referring to ink tanks, then it's very easy to determine. The
    BCI-3ebk (pigmented) is almost twice the width of the BCI-6bk (dye base). If
    you are referring to bottles of ink which may not have labels, the easiest
    way is to take a cotton swab or tissue, dip it lightly in the ink and then
    wipe it on a piece of scrap glossy photo paper. If the ink is pigmented it
    will have a bronzing effect, but dye based black will be a glossy black.
    --
    Ron

    "Satoshi" <machocraig@hotmail.com> wrote in message
    news:d9hci3$njg$1@reader2.nmix.net...
    > Thanks Ron for your informative posting.
    > Before I got i950, I also bought Canon s520. I still use S520 at home.
    > s520 uses BCI-3eBK. When I looked at both BCI-3eBK and BCI-6BK, they did
    > not say whether they are pigment- or dye-based inks.
    > I now used OEM BCI-3eBK ink. The OEM label did not say either. Could
    > you tell me how to tell pigmented black from dye-based black.
    > I might have used both without knowing whether they are pigment- or
    > dye-based ink. satoshi
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > "Ron Cohen" <d+r+c+0+2+3@sbcXXXglobalYYY.ZZZnet> wrote in message
    > news:elJue.1845$W74.192@newssvr30.news.prodigy.com...
    >> You should be more than pleased with the output from the iP4000. I prefer
    >> it to the my i950. The iP4000 lacks the PM & PC tanks but I haven't
    >> noticed that as a problem. If anything it's an advantage since the
    >> pinkish tint problem that seems to plague so many i950 printers has not
    >> been a problem with the iP4000. As to the black ink question, the BCI-6bk
    >> tank (photo black) is dye based and is used for printing with all paper
    >> settings. The BCI-3ebk is pigmented black and is only used for plain
    >> paper mode. You will also see it referred to as text black or used for
    >> text printing, but that is incorrect. The pigmented black is used for
    >> both text and photos (how would the printer know anyway?), but only in
    >> plain paper mode. It is not used for any other paper settings.
    >> --
    >> Ron
    >>
    >
    >
  7. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    Thanks Ron again.

    After print head alignment, the color of 6BK black looks more grey.
    On the other hand, the color of 3eBK is really dark.

    Color pictures printed with ip4000 is almost the same as those printed at
    Costco.

    Regards,

    Satoshi


    "Ron Cohen" <d+r+c+0+2+3@sbcXXXglobalYYY.ZZZnet> wrote in message
    news:PCYue.1656$5w3.777@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com...
    > If you are referring to ink tanks, then it's very easy to determine. The
    > BCI-3ebk (pigmented) is almost twice the width of the BCI-6bk (dye base).
    > If you are referring to bottles of ink which may not have labels, the
    > easiest way is to take a cotton swab or tissue, dip it lightly in the ink
    > and then wipe it on a piece of scrap glossy photo paper. If the ink is
    > pigmented it will have a bronzing effect, but dye based black will be a
    > glossy black.
    > --
    > Ron
  8. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    Satoshi wrote:

    >Thanks Ron for your informative posting.
    >Before I got i950, I also bought Canon s520. I still use S520 at home.
    >s520 uses BCI-3eBK. When I looked at both BCI-3eBK and BCI-6BK, they did
    >not say whether they are pigment- or dye-based inks.
    >I now used OEM BCI-3eBK ink. The OEM label did not say either. Could
    >you tell me how to tell pigmented black from dye-based black.
    >I might have used both without knowing whether they are pigment- or
    >dye-based ink. satoshi
    >
    >

    The answer is simple. The BCI-3eBK is pigmented and the cartridge size
    is much larger.

    >
    >
    >
    >"Ron Cohen" <d+r+c+0+2+3@sbcXXXglobalYYY.ZZZnet> wrote in message
    >news:elJue.1845$W74.192@newssvr30.news.prodigy.com...
    >
    >
    >>You should be more than pleased with the output from the iP4000. I prefer
    >>it to the my i950. The iP4000 lacks the PM & PC tanks but I haven't
    >>noticed that as a problem. If anything it's an advantage since the pinkish
    >>tint problem that seems to plague so many i950 printers has not been a
    >>problem with the iP4000. As to the black ink question, the BCI-6bk tank
    >>(photo black) is dye based and is used for printing with all paper
    >>settings. The BCI-3ebk is pigmented black and is only used for plain paper
    >>mode. You will also see it referred to as text black or used for text
    >>printing, but that is incorrect. The pigmented black is used for both text
    >>and photos (how would the printer know anyway?), but only in plain paper
    >>mode. It is not used for any other paper settings.
    >>--
    >>Ron
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >
    >
    >
    >
  9. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    "Bob Headrick" <bobh@proaxis.com> wrote in
    news:11bn1d6okmpo84e@corp.supernews.com:

    >
    > "Bruce" <parcxman@netscape.net> wrote in message
    > news:Xns967EC65ADE10Dparcxmannetscapenet@216.196.97.136...
    >
    >> Hmmm...I've always wondered about this, too. Are the two blacks the
    >> same 'color', but pigmented is better for use on non-coated, or high
    >> rag content, whereas dye based is for photographic papers?
    >
    > Yes, the pigmented ink is not generally compatible with glossy photo
    > papers. Additionally, the drop size for the pigmented black is
    > generally much larger than for the dye based black. The pigmented
    > printhead is tuned for text printing, the dye based printhead is tuned
    > for graphics and photos.
    >
    >> I just printed the same text document twice, both times on plain
    >> paper, but once using the plain paper setting, and once using the
    >> Photo Paper Pro setting (Canon MP760). Both looked the same 'color',
    >> but the plain paper setting produced a slightly, but noticable,
    >> crisper output.
    >
    > The pigmented black ink will generally giver sharper edge definition.
    > Also, printing with photo paper selected uses more ink and may have
    > exceeded the capacity of plain paper to handle it.

    Ah, yes, that's exactly what I am seeing. Plain paper setting, thus
    pigmented ink in use, gives slighly crisper text than does Photo Paper
    Pro setting, thus dye based ink in use, on plain paper.
    >
    > Regards,
    > Bob Headrick, MS MVP Printing/Imaging
    >
    >
    Thanks much,
    Bruce
  10. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    Ron Cohen wrote:

    >If you are referring to ink tanks, then it's very easy to determine. The
    >BCI-3ebk (pigmented) is almost twice the width of the BCI-6bk (dye base). If
    >you are referring to bottles
    >

    Canon ink does not come in bottles.

    >of ink which may not have labels, the easiest
    >way is to take a cotton swab or tissue, dip it lightly in the ink and then
    >wipe it on a piece of scrap glossy photo paper. If the ink is pigmented it
    >will have a bronzing effect, but dye based black will be a glossy black.
    >
    >
  11. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    "measekite" <inkystinky@oem.com> wrote in message
    news:kH%ue.3532$Bx6.1910@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...
    >
    >
    > Ron Cohen wrote:
    >
    >>If you are referring to ink tanks, then it's very easy to determine. The
    >>BCI-3ebk (pigmented) is almost twice the width of the BCI-6bk (dye base).
    >>If you are referring to bottles
    >
    > Canon ink does not come in bottles.

    Ron Cohen has been very successful in using bulk Formulabs inks for several
    years in his Canon printers. He is obviously referring to bottles of
    aftermarket inks that the OP might be trying to identify as dye or pigment
    based. It is too bad that Canon inks don't come in bottles, but fortunately
    there are good compatable aftermarket products that do at a much reduced
    cost to the user.
    >
    >>of ink which may not have labels, the easiest way is to take a cotton swab
    >>or tissue, dip it lightly in the ink and then wipe it on a piece of scrap
    >>glossy photo paper. If the ink is pigmented it will have a bronzing
    >>effect, but dye based black will be a glossy black.
    >>
  12. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    As a matter of fact it does, normally 1 US Gallon.
    They use bottles to prevent the ink from running all over the floor; a
    technique used successfully with liquids for centuries!!!!
    Tony

    measekite <inkystinky@oem.com> wrote:

    >Canon ink does not come in bottles.
  13. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    Tony Da Tiger is an also ran.

    Tony wrote:

    >As a matter of fact it does, normally 1 US Gallon.
    >They use bottles to prevent the ink from running all over the floor; a
    >technique used successfully with liquids for centuries!!!!
    >Tony
    >
    >measekite <inkystinky@oem.com> wrote:
    >
    >
    >
    >>Canon ink does not come in bottles.
    >>
    >>
    >
    >
    >
  14. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    A good subject turned into worthless fight. People really need to grow up.

    Well, I saw a bit of incorrect understanding about dye based and pigment
    based ink. No intention to fight with anyone. You may consider the following
    just my 2 cents worth of opinion.

    Dye based black ink is actually darker than pigmented black ink. Just use a
    cotton swap to catch some black ink by squeezing a black ink cartridge and
    use the swap to draw on a piece plain paper. You will see ink from a BCI-3eBK
    (pigmented) gets a gray looking but not the black ink from a BCI-6BK.

    In order for the pigmented black to look as dark as dye based black the printer
    driver is programmed to consume more ink per pixel. That's why the cartridge
    (BCI-3eBK) is bigger.

    The reason pigmented black ink is used for text printing is because it is better
    waterproof than dye based ink. It is also more fade resistant. Pigmented ink is
    also much more expensive than dye based ink. It can be twice of the dye based ink.
    Many 3rd party BCI-3eBK cartridges, especially cheap ones, are not pre-filled
    with pigmented black ink. Most people just can't tell pigmented black from dye based
    black.
  15. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    Burt,

    I purchased MIS refill set several times from Costco. The plastic squeeze
    bottles with syringe needle on the top did not say any word whether black
    ink is pigment- or dye-based ink. They might print it now. I will go and
    check at Costco today. Satoshi


    "Burt" <sfbjgNOSPAM@pacbell.net> wrote in message
    news:LZ0ve.3587$Bx6.1434@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...
    >> that are almost impossible to identify since the are not marked.
    >
    > Sure they are marked. The bottles of ink I use have a printed label from
    > MIS including their name, the printer for which the ink is formulated, the
    > color, a "use by" date, and the size of the container.
    >>
    > (snip)
    >
  16. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    Satoshi wrote:
    > Burt,
    >
    > I purchased MIS refill set several times from Costco. The plastic squeeze
    > bottles with syringe needle on the top did not say any word whether black
    > ink is pigment- or dye-based ink. They might print it now. I will go and
    > check at Costco today. Satoshi
    >
    >
    >
    > "Burt" <sfbjgNOSPAM@pacbell.net> wrote in message
    > news:LZ0ve.3587$Bx6.1434@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...
    >
    >>>that are almost impossible to identify since the are not marked.
    >>
    >>Sure they are marked. The bottles of ink I use have a printed label from
    >>MIS including their name, the printer for which the ink is formulated, the
    >>color, a "use by" date, and the size of the container.
    >>
    >>(snip)
    >>
    >
    >
    >
    That is IMS from Costco not MIS from Inksupply.com The latest bottle
    I have say Photo Black for the dye based ink.

    Mickey
  17. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    Your new here aren't you?
    Stevelee wrote:
    > A good subject turned into worthless fight. People really need to grow up.
    How true but you have to admit Measkite is a great fisherman. Every
    time he throws out a line someone bites and bites again.
    >
    > Well, I saw a bit of incorrect understanding about dye based and pigment
    > based ink. No intention to fight with anyone. You may consider the
    > following
    > just my 2 cents worth of opinion.
    >
    > Dye based black ink is actually darker than pigmented black ink. Just use a
    > cotton swap to catch some black ink by squeezing a black ink cartridge and
    > use the swap to draw on a piece plain paper. You will see ink from a
    > BCI-3eBK
    > (pigmented) gets a gray looking but not the black ink from a BCI-6BK.
    >
    > In order for the pigmented black to look as dark as dye based black the
    > printer
    > driver is programmed to consume more ink per pixel. That's why the
    > cartridge
    > (BCI-3eBK) is bigger.
    >
    > The reason pigmented black ink is used for text printing is because it
    > is better
    > waterproof than dye based ink. It is also more fade resistant. Pigmented
    > ink is
    > also much more expensive than dye based ink. It can be twice of the dye
    > based ink.
    > Many 3rd party BCI-3eBK cartridges, especially cheap ones, are not
    > pre-filled
    > with pigmented black ink. Most people just can't tell pigmented black
    > from dye based
    > black.
    >
    >
    Since you tagged onto a post by Bruce which quoted a long post from
    Bob Headrick, you need to know he is an HP employee and works for
    their Inkjet division. If you thought his comments were incorrect,
    you need to stop and give some thought.

    Just MO

    Mickey
  18. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    > I purchased MIS refill set several times from Costco. The plastic squeeze
    > bottles with syringe needle on the top did not say any word whether black
    > ink is pigment- or dye-based ink.

    IMS from costco won't make you happy, they didn't make me happy.
    Generic inks, as in the one type fits all are none too good. I can't
    say what they'd do on a canon... but on an Epson boy. I haven't heard
    of anyone clogging with the IMS inks, but I have heard of leaking as
    it's very thin stuff. And faiding... it'll fad about as fast as some
    of those ultra cheap imports though my test was with a paint brush and
    warsaw index paper. Hardly scientific.

    I haven't tried MIS yet from inksupply.com on the canon... but I have
    on the epson, and the results were pretty brillent, when I run out of
    ink that will be my next refill. Those at least didn't faid in weeks.
  19. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    I worked for HP too. But don't assume one knows about ink because he or she works
    or worked for HP. I have 3 bottles of Canon compatible black ink in front of me
    right now. One is dye based and 2nd is pigmented and the 3rd is somewhere in between.

    I tested all 3 by using the ink to draw on 3 pieces of plain paper. The dye ink is
    darkest. The one in the middle is almost as dark too. The pigmented black looks gray.
    But then it doesn't mean when printed it will be gray. By laying more droplets the gray
    will be dense enough to be dark black.

    From a more technical point of view, pigment ink does not have a wide gamut like dye
    inks. So dye based black ink is naturally darker than pigment black ink. Pigment ink
    is much more archival than dye inks and more waterproof. That's the reason when printing
    text pigmented ink is desired.


    Mickey wrote:
    > Your new here aren't you?
    > Stevelee wrote:
    >
    >> A good subject turned into worthless fight. People really need to grow
    >> up.
    >
    > How true but you have to admit Measkite is a great fisherman. Every
    > time he throws out a line someone bites and bites again.
    >
    >>
    >> Well, I saw a bit of incorrect understanding about dye based and pigment
    >> based ink. No intention to fight with anyone. You may consider the
    >> following
    >> just my 2 cents worth of opinion.
    >>
    >> Dye based black ink is actually darker than pigmented black ink. Just
    >> use a
    >> cotton swap to catch some black ink by squeezing a black ink cartridge
    >> and
    >> use the swap to draw on a piece plain paper. You will see ink from a
    >> BCI-3eBK
    >> (pigmented) gets a gray looking but not the black ink from a BCI-6BK.
    >>
    >> In order for the pigmented black to look as dark as dye based black
    >> the printer
    >> driver is programmed to consume more ink per pixel. That's why the
    >> cartridge
    >> (BCI-3eBK) is bigger.
    >>
    >> The reason pigmented black ink is used for text printing is because it
    >> is better
    >> waterproof than dye based ink. It is also more fade resistant.
    >> Pigmented ink is
    >> also much more expensive than dye based ink. It can be twice of the
    >> dye based ink.
    >> Many 3rd party BCI-3eBK cartridges, especially cheap ones, are not
    >> pre-filled
    >> with pigmented black ink. Most people just can't tell pigmented black
    >> from dye based
    >> black.
    >>
    >>
    > Since you tagged onto a post by Bruce which quoted a long post from Bob
    > Headrick, you need to know he is an HP employee and works for their
    > Inkjet division. If you thought his comments were incorrect, you need
    > to stop and give some thought.
    >
    > Just MO
    >
    > Mickey
  20. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    " Stevelee" <" Stevelee"@hotmail.com> wrote in message
    news:PAfve.33908$J12.23694@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com...

    > From a more technical point of view, pigment ink does not have a wide gamut
    > like dye
    > inks. So dye based black ink is naturally darker than pigment black ink.

    The first statement may be true, but the second does not follow.

    > Pigment ink is much more archival than dye inks and more waterproof.

    Generally true.

    > That's the reason when printing text pigmented ink is desired.

    Not necessarily. Pigmented ink is generally less likely to bleed or wick and
    is more media independent in these regards than dye based ink. Dyes typically
    soak into the paper and may bleed or wick, pigmented inks are more likely to
    sit on top of the paper. The result is better edge acuity on a variety of
    plain papers. This is more important for providing clear sharp text.

    - Bob Headrick, not speaking for my employer HP
  21. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    > SO WHERE IS THE REST OF THIS BAD PRODUCT

    Please don't yell.

    I'll be the first to say I have NO clue where the rest of this product
    is. As with many things at costco it's rebranded by some company and
    sold in bulk, rather like that kirkland paper we are all so fond off
    made by that unnammed swiss paper company.

    There is also Stratitec name which was at samsclub for about the same
    price mark. The accessories were slightly different, the bottles a
    whole other shape, but the plugs, badal, and thumb drill were an
    identical match. Sams club is a little different than costco... they
    were selling ilford paper that was slightly relabled giving the
    impression they were buying the smooth pearl though in reality much
    thinner.

    But the stuff you're talking about is sold retail for $100/gal or so
    (not exact, between $100-$150 IIRC).

    > IT IS PROBABLY SOLD UNDER A VARIETY OF NAMES THAT ARE LABELED
    > BY THE VENDORS

    Yep, and probally made by some company who makes comercial ink. Every
    time I see it in the costco isle it's always very consistent in color,
    which is more than I can say for Epson OEM... but you can at least look
    at epson and pick a single country of orgin and be pretty damned
    consistent.

    > THAT THE COMPANY WILL NEED MORE THAN COSTCO TO RUN A
    > SUCCESSFUL BUSINESS

    Ummm, I disagree. I don't know how it is at standford but generally
    speaking a successful business is often defined as one which doesn't go
    bankrupt after 3 years or so. A business could be two guys and a dog
    called spot selling macrame coathangers. Heck I know of some guy who
    does chainsaw art work and manages to make house payments. This isn't
    my bag I might be misquoting, but any business that continues to
    operate for more than 3 years, 5 years, 7 years is successful. And
    can you do this just selling to costco? I'd say yes. IMS has been
    selling to costco for 3 years now (at least), while I don't like their
    product they have a perfectly dandy business model even if they only
    sell to Costco... but they also sell direct from what i've seen.
  22. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    Zake - I use MIS in my Canon i960. No clogs in a little under a year and
    very good color match.

    "zakezuke" <zakezuke_us@yahoo.com> wrote in message
    news:1119736379.960434.229160@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
    >> I purchased MIS refill set several times from Costco. The plastic
    >> squeeze
    >> bottles with syringe needle on the top did not say any word whether black
    >> ink is pigment- or dye-based ink.
    >
    > IMS from costco won't make you happy, they didn't make me happy.
    > Generic inks, as in the one type fits all are none too good. I can't
    > say what they'd do on a canon... but on an Epson boy. I haven't heard
    > of anyone clogging with the IMS inks, but I have heard of leaking as
    > it's very thin stuff. And faiding... it'll fad about as fast as some
    > of those ultra cheap imports though my test was with a paint brush and
    > warsaw index paper. Hardly scientific.
    >
    > I haven't tried MIS yet from inksupply.com on the canon... but I have
    > on the epson, and the results were pretty brillent, when I run out of
    > ink that will be my next refill. Those at least didn't faid in weeks.
    >
  23. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    Mickey wrote:

    > Satoshi wrote:
    >
    >> Burt,
    >>
    >> I purchased MIS refill set several times from Costco. The plastic
    >> squeeze bottles with syringe needle on the top did not say any word
    >> whether black ink is pigment- or dye-based ink. They might print it
    >> now. I will go and check at Costco today. Satoshi
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >> "Burt" <sfbjgNOSPAM@pacbell.net> wrote in message
    >> news:LZ0ve.3587$Bx6.1434@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...
    >>
    >>>> that are almost impossible to identify since the are not marked.
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> Sure they are marked. The bottles of ink I use have a printed label
    >>> from MIS including their name, the printer for which the ink is
    >>> formulated, the color, a "use by" date, and the size of the container.
    >>>
    >>> (snip)
    >>>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    > That is IMS from Costco not MIS from Inksupply.com The latest bottle
    > I have say Photo Black for the dye based ink.
    >
    > Mickey


    It may be the same stuff.
  24. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    measekite wrote:


    >
    > It may be the same stuff.

    Yeah right. And minkies might come flying out of your rectum at any time.
    You're an idiot.
    Frank
  25. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    In article <LZ0ve.3587$Bx6.1434@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com>,
    sfbjgNOSPAM@pacbell.net says...
    >
    > "measekite" <inkystinky@oem.com> wrote in message
    > news:Zw0ve.3566$Bx6.2785@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...
    > >
    > >
    > > Burt wrote:
    > >
    > >>"measekite" <inkystinky@oem.com> wrote in message
    > >>news:kH%ue.3532$Bx6.1910@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...
    > >>
    > >
    > > that are almost impossible to identify since the are not marked.
    >

    > >>>Ron Cohen wrote:

    > Sure they are marked. The bottles of ink I use have a printed label from
    > MIS including their name, the printer for which the ink is formulated, the
    > color, a "use by" date, and the size of the container.
    > >
    > (snip)

    Strangely enough, my bottles of ink from alotofthings.com are similarly
    well identified, including lot & batch numbers.
    I wonder why measekite didn't know that? I wonder if there's anything
    else he is ignorant of?
  26. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    Burt wrote:

    >Zake - I use MIS UnBranded in my Canon i960. No clogs in a little under a year and
    >very good color match.
    >
    >"zakezuke" <zakezuke_us@yahoo.com> wrote in message
    >news:1119736379.960434.229160@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
    >
    >
    >>>I purchased MIS refill set several times from Costco. The plastic
    >>>squeeze
    >>>bottles with syringe needle on the top did not say any word whether black
    >>>ink is pigment- or dye-based ink.
    >>>
    >>>
    >>IMS from costco won't make you happy, they didn't make me happy.
    >>Generic inks, as in the one type fits all are none too good. I can't
    >>say what they'd do on a canon... but on an Epson boy. I haven't heard
    >>of anyone clogging with the IMS inks, but I have heard of leaking as
    >>it's very thin stuff. And faiding... it'll fad about as fast as some
    >>of those ultra cheap imports though my test was with a paint brush and
    >>warsaw index paper. Hardly scientific.
    >>
    >>I haven't tried MIS yet from inksupply.com on the canon... but I have
    >>on the epson, and the results were pretty brillent, when I run out of
    >>ink that will be my next refill. Those at least didn't faid in weeks.
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >
    >
    >
    >
  27. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    "measekite" <inkystinky@oem.com> wrote in message
    news:a8mve.4048$Bx6.139@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...
    >
    >
    > Mickey wrote:
    >
    >> Satoshi wrote:
    >>
    >>> Burt,
    >>>
    >>> I purchased MIS refill set several times from Costco. The plastic
    >>> squeeze bottles with syringe needle on the top did not say any word
    >>> whether black ink is pigment- or dye-based ink. They might print it
    >>> now. I will go and check at Costco today. Satoshi
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> "Burt" <sfbjgNOSPAM@pacbell.net> wrote in message
    >>> news:LZ0ve.3587$Bx6.1434@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...
    >>>
    >>>>> that are almost impossible to identify since the are not marked.
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>> Sure they are marked. The bottles of ink I use have a printed label
    >>>> from MIS including their name, the printer for which the ink is
    >>>> formulated, the color, a "use by" date, and the size of the container.
    >>>>
    >>>> (snip)
    >>>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >> That is IMS from Costco not MIS from Inksupply.com The latest bottle I
    >> have say Photo Black for the dye based ink.
    >>
    >> Mickey
    >
    >
    > It may be the same stuff.

    More misinformation from Measekite. It is not the same "stuff". What you
    see is the "same stuff" from Measekite trying to dissuade you from buying
    anything but OEM ink.

    MIS ink is formulated specifically for Canon printer and works great. I have
    used MIS Canon inks for nearly a year. IMS is a generic ink which is sold
    by Costco and claims to work for several printer manufacturers' units.
    Although I have read some posts about IMS being OK I have read many more
    negative ones. Measekite's advice is to buy OEM inks for $9 (from Costco)
    to $12 (retail) per cartridge. My advice, if you want to save money, is to
    either buy prefilled cartridges of non-OEM inks from a vendor that someone
    else who used the materials has recommended or save more money by refilling
    with MIS, Formulabs, or another ink that someone you trust has recommended
    after personal use.
  28. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    Burt wrote:

    >"measekite" <inkystinky@oem.com> wrote in message
    >news:a8mve.4048$Bx6.139@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...
    >
    >
    >>Mickey wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>>Satoshi wrote:
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>>Burt,
    >>>>
    >>>>I purchased MIS refill set several times from Costco. The plastic
    >>>>squeeze bottles with syringe needle on the top did not say any word
    >>>>whether black ink is pigment- or dye-based ink. They might print it
    >>>>now. I will go and check at Costco today. Satoshi
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>"Burt" <sfbjgNOSPAM@pacbell.net> wrote in message
    >>>>news:LZ0ve.3587$Bx6.1434@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>>>that are almost impossible to identify since the are not marked.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>Sure they are marked. The bottles of ink I use have a printed label
    >>>>>from MIS including their name, the printer for which the ink is
    >>>>>formulated, the color, a "use by" date, and the size of the container.
    >>>>>
    >>>>>(snip)
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>That is IMS from Costco not MIS from Inksupply.com The latest bottle I
    >>>have say Photo Black for the dye based ink.
    >>>
    >>>Mickey
    >>>
    >>>
    >>It may be the same stuff.
    >>
    >>
    >
    >More misinformation from Measekite. It is not the same "stuff". What you
    >see is the "same stuff" from Measekite trying to dissuade you from buying
    >anything but OEM ink.
    >
    >MIS ink is formulated specifically for Canon printer and works great. I have
    >used MIS Canon inks for nearly a year. IMS is a generic ink which is sold
    >by Costco and claims to work for several printer manufacturers' units.
    >Although I have read some posts about IMS being OK I have read many more
    >negative ones. Measekite's advice is to buy OEM inks for $9 (from Costco)
    >to $12 (retail) per cartridge. My advice, if you want to save money, is to
    >either buy prefilled cartridges of non-OEM inks from a vendor that someone
    >else who used the materials has recommended
    >

    Each purchase at a different time could be from another mfg/formulator
    and you would never know it because they will not tell you. The next
    order could be the one to clog your machine.

    >or save more money by refilling
    >
    >
    a pain in the ass

    >with MIS, Formulabs, or another ink that someone you trust has recommended
    >after personal use.
    >
    >

    In God We Trust

    >
    >
    >
  29. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    Frank wrote:

    > measekite wrote:
    >
    >
    >>
    >> It may be the same stuff.
    >
    >
    > Yeah right. And minkies might come flying out of my rectum at any time.
    > I am an idiot.
    > Frank
  30. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    measekite wrote:

    >
    >
    > Frank wrote:
    >
    >> measekite wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >>>
    >>> It may be the same stuff.
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >> Yeah right. And minkies might come flying out of my rectum at any time.
    >> I am an idiot.
    >> Frank

    Yeah right. And minkies might come flying out of your rectum at any time.
    You're still an idiot.
    Frank
  31. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    What makes something look black on paper is how well it absorbs light,
    and how little are reflected back. Black is the absence of light.

    Dye inks typically are a formulation of several colored dyes mixed
    together. Often a mixture of blue, yellow and red, but it can be other
    combinations. It is actually no easy to produce a true black dye. This
    is why you will notice blacks vary quite a bit in their color.

    Black pigments exist more commonly, lampblack or soot (carbon based)
    being one example. The reason black may not appear as dark as a pigment
    is several fold. One, pigments are made of discrete particles of
    colorant, meaning there are spaces betwen the particles where the
    carrier is. This becomes more obvious as they are diluted. Dyes are
    dissolved into the carrier, on a molecular level, making it impossible
    for there to be visible spaces between the colorant.

    Pigments lay on the surface of the paper. They tend to fall in
    irregular positions relative to the shape of the particle. This causes
    the light to be reflected in a diffused manner and diffused light looks
    much more flat and less "colorful" than light that comes off a very
    smooth surface such as the paper surface after it has absorbed dye ink
    molecular colorant. The smaller the particle size for pigment colorant,
    the less light scattering will occur, but at a certain point, particles
    too small simply cannot reflect the color light back well, which puts
    pigment inks into a bit of a catch 22. Two large and the light is
    spread too diffusely and the particle is less likely to stay on the
    paper surface, too small, and the intensity of the color will be lessened.

    Black pigment color is indeed used for permanence and waterproof
    qualities, but pigment inks do not mix well with dye inks and often
    require different paper surfaces, so most dye colorant printers tend to
    also have a dye black to go with the pigment black used for text and the
    like.

    The other problem is to get a dense enough pigment black ink the number
    of particles much be high, but this leads to a non-glossy surface. As a
    result, Epson for instance, provides two black inks for their pigment
    ink machines, one is called photo glossy black and the other matte black.

    Canon, to date is still using dye inks for their photo printers, so they
    just provide the black pigment cartridge for text and monochrome black
    and white results. Mainly uncoated stock is used for that type of
    printing, because glossy papers would end up with areas of matte ink
    surface if the other pigment inks were to be used.

    Art


    Stevelee wrote:

    > I worked for HP too. But don't assume one knows about ink because he or
    > she works
    > or worked for HP. I have 3 bottles of Canon compatible black ink in
    > front of me
    > right now. One is dye based and 2nd is pigmented and the 3rd is
    > somewhere in between.
    >
    > I tested all 3 by using the ink to draw on 3 pieces of plain paper. The
    > dye ink is
    > darkest. The one in the middle is almost as dark too. The pigmented
    > black looks gray.
    > But then it doesn't mean when printed it will be gray. By laying more
    > droplets the gray
    > will be dense enough to be dark black.
    >
    > From a more technical point of view, pigment ink does not have a wide
    > gamut like dye
    > inks. So dye based black ink is naturally darker than pigment black ink.
    > Pigment ink
    > is much more archival than dye inks and more waterproof. That's the
    > reason when printing
    > text pigmented ink is desired.
    >
    >
    > Mickey wrote:
    >
    >> Your new here aren't you?
    >> Stevelee wrote:
    >>
    >>> A good subject turned into worthless fight. People really need to
    >>> grow up.
    >>
    >>
    >> How true but you have to admit Measkite is a great fisherman. Every
    >> time he throws out a line someone bites and bites again.
    >>
    >>>
    >>> Well, I saw a bit of incorrect understanding about dye based and pigment
    >>> based ink. No intention to fight with anyone. You may consider the
    >>> following
    >>> just my 2 cents worth of opinion.
    >>>
    >>> Dye based black ink is actually darker than pigmented black ink. Just
    >>> use a
    >>> cotton swap to catch some black ink by squeezing a black ink
    >>> cartridge and
    >>> use the swap to draw on a piece plain paper. You will see ink from a
    >>> BCI-3eBK
    >>> (pigmented) gets a gray looking but not the black ink from a BCI-6BK.
    >>>
    >>> In order for the pigmented black to look as dark as dye based black
    >>> the printer
    >>> driver is programmed to consume more ink per pixel. That's why the
    >>> cartridge
    >>> (BCI-3eBK) is bigger.
    >>>
    >>> The reason pigmented black ink is used for text printing is because
    >>> it is better
    >>> waterproof than dye based ink. It is also more fade resistant.
    >>> Pigmented ink is
    >>> also much more expensive than dye based ink. It can be twice of the
    >>> dye based ink.
    >>> Many 3rd party BCI-3eBK cartridges, especially cheap ones, are not
    >>> pre-filled
    >>> with pigmented black ink. Most people just can't tell pigmented black
    >>> from dye based
    >>> black.
    >>>
    >>>
    >> Since you tagged onto a post by Bruce which quoted a long post from
    >> Bob Headrick, you need to know he is an HP employee and works for
    >> their Inkjet division. If you thought his comments were incorrect,
    >> you need to stop and give some thought.
    >>
    >> Just MO
    >>
    >> Mickey
  32. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    measekite wrote:

    So now you have the answer to my wierd behavior...yep...I'm drunk again.

    measekite
  33. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    Frank wrote:

    > measekite wrote:
    >
    >>
    >>
    >> Frank wrote:
    >>
    >>> measekite wrote:
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>>
    >>>> It may be the same stuff.
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> Yeah right. And minkies might come flying out of my rectum at any time.
    >>> I am an idiot.
    >>> Frank
    >>
    >
    > Yeah right. And minkies might come flying out of your rectum at any
    > time for me to eat.
    > idiot Frank


    Are you hungry again? And you are an idiot.
  34. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    measekite wrote:

    So now you have the answer to my wierd behavior...I'm drunk again.

    measekite
  35. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    zakezuke wrote:

    >>SO WHERE IS THE REST OF THIS BAD PRODUCT
    >>
    >>
    >
    >Please don't yell.
    >
    >I'll be the first to say I have NO clue where the rest of this product
    >is. As with many things at costco it's rebranded by some company and
    >sold in bulk, rather like that kirkland paper we are all so fond off
    >made by that unnammed swiss paper company.
    >
    >There is also Stratitec name which was at samsclub for about the same
    >price mark. The accessories were slightly different, the bottles a
    >whole other shape, but the plugs, badal, and thumb drill were an
    >identical match. Sams club is a little different than costco... they
    >were selling ilford paper that was slightly relabled giving the
    >impression they were buying the smooth pearl though in reality much
    >thinner.
    >
    >But the stuff you're talking about is sold retail for $100/gal or so
    >(not exact, between $100-$150 IIRC).
    >
    >
    >
    >>IT IS PROBABLY SOLD UNDER A VARIETY OF NAMES THAT ARE LABELED
    >>BY THE VENDORS
    >>
    >>
    >
    >Yep, and probally made by some company who makes comercial ink. Every
    >time I see it in the costco isle it's always very consistent in color,
    >which is more than I can say for Epson OEM... but you can at least look
    >at epson and pick a single country of orgin and be pretty damned
    >consistent.
    >
    >
    >
    >>THAT THE COMPANY WILL NEED MORE THAN COSTCO TO RUN A
    >>SUCCESSFUL BUSINESS
    >>
    >>
    >
    >Ummm, I disagree. I don't know how it is at standford but generally
    >speaking a successful business is often defined as one which doesn't go
    >bankrupt after 3 years or so. A business could be two guys and a dog
    >called spot selling macrame coathangers. Heck I know of some guy who
    >does chainsaw art work and manages to make house payments. This isn't
    >my bag I might be misquoting, but any business that continues to
    >operate for more than 3 years, 5 years, 7 years is successful. And
    >can you do this just selling to costco?
    >

    A successful business needs more than one major client. If Costco dumps
    the company they are out of business. In the old days business who sold
    all of their output to Sears wound up either taken over or out of
    business if Sears dumped them.

    >I'd say yes. IMS has been
    >selling to costco for 3 years now (at least), while I don't like their
    >product they have a perfectly dandy business model even if they only
    >sell to Costco... but they also sell direct from what i've seen.
    >
    >
    >
  36. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    measekite wrote:

    So now you have the answer to my wierd behavior...yep...I'm still drunk.

    measekit
  37. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    Irwin Peckinloomer wrote:

    >In article <LZ0ve.3587$Bx6.1434@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com>,
    >sfbjgNOSPAM@pacbell.net says...
    >
    >
    >>"measekite" <inkystinky@oem.com> wrote in message
    >>news:Zw0ve.3566$Bx6.2785@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...
    >>
    >>
    >>>Burt wrote:
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>>"measekite" <inkystinky@oem.com> wrote in message
    >>>>news:kH%ue.3532$Bx6.1910@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>that are almost impossible to identify since the are not marked.
    >>>
    >>>
    >
    >
    >
    >>>>>Ron Cohen wrote:
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >
    >
    >
    >>Sure they are marked. The bottles of ink I use have a printed label from
    >>MIS including their name, the printer for which the ink is formulated, the
    >>color, a "use by" date, and the size of the container.
    >>
    >>
    >>(snip)
    >>
    >>
    >
    >Strangely enough, my bottles of ink from alotofthings.com are similarly
    >well identified, including lot & batch numbers.
    >I wonder why measekite didn't know that? I wonder if there's anything
    >else he is ignorant of?
    >
    >

    Hey Peckerface - They sell noname prefilled carts and they do not tell
    you what is inside them. You want to endure the pain in the ass to
    refill that is your business. But the majority of peope by far who buy
    inkjet printers do not refiill them.
  38. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    measekite wrote:

    So now you have the answer to my wierd behavior...yep...I'm drunk again
    and still posting false information about ink and printers that I know
    nothing about.
    That's what drunks do. :-)

    measekit
  39. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    > A successful business needs more than one major client.

    A successful business just needs exist without going totally bankrupt.


    > If Costco dumps the company they are out of business. In the old days business
    > who sold all of their output to Sears wound up either taken over or out of business
    > if Sears dumped them.

    Ah yes, the olden days of Sears, and the current days of Walmart. On
    this point I can actually agree with you. The walmart strategy seems
    to be find product, get a contract... then make huge almost impossible
    to fill orders, then once all the production goes to walmart and no one
    else, threaten to break the contract unless they lower prices. Putting
    all your eggs in one basket is never wise. Not the best business model
    - agreed.

    If I made widgets for Ford automotive, and only sold to Ford, one could
    operate and still make a profit. And in the case of IMS (i'm not a fan
    of their product), they will sell to the end user as far as I'm aware.
    So if costco drops them they could continue operating as a small time
    mail order house. It's possible they might have to downsize but at the
    end of the day they are selling coloued water. This can be done as a
    cottage industry mom & pop operation... there are many of these.

    But.. at the end of the day... any business that stays in operation for
    more than 3, 5, or 7 years (note I'm not sure of the text book number -
    IANAMBA) is a successful one by defination. And it's something to tell
    the grandkids too, "when I was your age, I was selling coloued water to
    Costco, and I did this for 3 years, and I met your mother". If they
    go bankrupt.. which most businesses do... start up another one...
    perhaps "macrame coathangers".
  40. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    measekite wrote:

    So now you have the answer to my weird behavior...yep...I'm drunk again
    and still posting false information about ink and printers that I know
    nothing about.
    That's what we drunks do. :-)

    measekit
  41. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    measekite wrote:

    So now you have the real, truthful answer to my weird, psychotic
    behavior...yep...I'm drunk again and still posting false information
    about ink and printers that I know absolutely nothing about.
    How weird is that huh?
    But that's what we drunk morons do. :-)
    One other thing that I really like to do. When I stick my brown tongue
    up Frankie Crankie's Ass I never you wash it!
    Hummm that delicious!!!
    Oh I know. that probably makes some of you normal people sick but not me!
    Hell I'm already a real sicko!

    measekite
  42. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    Frank wrote:

    > measekite wrote:
    >
    > So now you have the answer to my wierd behavior...I'm drunk again.
    >
    > Frank
  43. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    Frank wrote:

    > measekite wrote:
    >
    > So now you have the answer to my wierd behavior...yep...I'm drunk again.
    >
    > Frank
  44. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    Frank wrote:

    > measekite wrote:
    >
    > So now you have the answer to my wierd behavior...yep...I'm still drunk.
    >
    > Frank
  45. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    Thanks Art. Your post is an enlightening one to me.

    Arthur Entlich wrote:

    > What makes something look black on paper is how well it absorbs light,
    > and how little are reflected back. Black is the absence of light.
    >
    > Dye inks typically are a formulation of several colored dyes mixed
    > together. Often a mixture of blue, yellow and red, but it can be other
    > combinations. It is actually no easy to produce a true black dye. This
    > is why you will notice blacks vary quite a bit in their color.
    >
    > Black pigments exist more commonly, lampblack or soot (carbon based)
    > being one example. The reason black may not appear as dark as a pigment
    > is several fold. One, pigments are made of discrete particles of
    > colorant, meaning there are spaces betwen the particles where the
    > carrier is. This becomes more obvious as they are diluted. Dyes are
    > dissolved into the carrier, on a molecular level, making it impossible
    > for there to be visible spaces between the colorant.
    >
    > Pigments lay on the surface of the paper. They tend to fall in
    > irregular positions relative to the shape of the particle. This causes
    > the light to be reflected in a diffused manner and diffused light looks
    > much more flat and less "colorful" than light that comes off a very
    > smooth surface such as the paper surface after it has absorbed dye ink
    > molecular colorant. The smaller the particle size for pigment colorant,
    > the less light scattering will occur, but at a certain point, particles
    > too small simply cannot reflect the color light back well, which puts
    > pigment inks into a bit of a catch 22. Two large and the light is
    > spread too diffusely and the particle is less likely to stay on the
    > paper surface, too small, and the intensity of the color will be lessened.
    >
    > Black pigment color is indeed used for permanence and waterproof
    > qualities, but pigment inks do not mix well with dye inks and often
    > require different paper surfaces, so most dye colorant printers tend to
    > also have a dye black to go with the pigment black used for text and the
    > like.
    >
    > The other problem is to get a dense enough pigment black ink the number
    > of particles much be high, but this leads to a non-glossy surface. As a
    > result, Epson for instance, provides two black inks for their pigment
    > ink machines, one is called photo glossy black and the other matte black.
    >
    > Canon, to date is still using dye inks for their photo printers, so they
    > just provide the black pigment cartridge for text and monochrome black
    > and white results. Mainly uncoated stock is used for that type of
    > printing, because glossy papers would end up with areas of matte ink
    > surface if the other pigment inks were to be used.
    >
    > Art
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Stevelee wrote:
    >
    >> I worked for HP too. But don't assume one knows about ink because he
    >> or she works
    >> or worked for HP. I have 3 bottles of Canon compatible black ink in
    >> front of me
    >> right now. One is dye based and 2nd is pigmented and the 3rd is
    >> somewhere in between.
    >>
    >> I tested all 3 by using the ink to draw on 3 pieces of plain paper.
    >> The dye ink is
    >> darkest. The one in the middle is almost as dark too. The pigmented
    >> black looks gray.
    >> But then it doesn't mean when printed it will be gray. By laying more
    >> droplets the gray
    >> will be dense enough to be dark black.
    >>
    >> From a more technical point of view, pigment ink does not have a wide
    >> gamut like dye
    >> inks. So dye based black ink is naturally darker than pigment black
    >> ink. Pigment ink
    >> is much more archival than dye inks and more waterproof. That's the
    >> reason when printing
    >> text pigmented ink is desired.
    >>
    >>
    >> Mickey wrote:
    >>
    >>> Your new here aren't you?
    >>> Stevelee wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> A good subject turned into worthless fight. People really need to
    >>>> grow up.
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> How true but you have to admit Measkite is a great fisherman. Every
    >>> time he throws out a line someone bites and bites again.
    >>>
    >>>>
    >>>> Well, I saw a bit of incorrect understanding about dye based and
    >>>> pigment
    >>>> based ink. No intention to fight with anyone. You may consider the
    >>>> following
    >>>> just my 2 cents worth of opinion.
    >>>>
    >>>> Dye based black ink is actually darker than pigmented black ink.
    >>>> Just use a
    >>>> cotton swap to catch some black ink by squeezing a black ink
    >>>> cartridge and
    >>>> use the swap to draw on a piece plain paper. You will see ink from a
    >>>> BCI-3eBK
    >>>> (pigmented) gets a gray looking but not the black ink from a BCI-6BK.
    >>>>
    >>>> In order for the pigmented black to look as dark as dye based black
    >>>> the printer
    >>>> driver is programmed to consume more ink per pixel. That's why the
    >>>> cartridge
    >>>> (BCI-3eBK) is bigger.
    >>>>
    >>>> The reason pigmented black ink is used for text printing is because
    >>>> it is better
    >>>> waterproof than dye based ink. It is also more fade resistant.
    >>>> Pigmented ink is
    >>>> also much more expensive than dye based ink. It can be twice of the
    >>>> dye based ink.
    >>>> Many 3rd party BCI-3eBK cartridges, especially cheap ones, are not
    >>>> pre-filled
    >>>> with pigmented black ink. Most people just can't tell pigmented
    >>>> black from dye based
    >>>> black.
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>> Since you tagged onto a post by Bruce which quoted a long post from
    >>> Bob Headrick, you need to know he is an HP employee and works for
    >>> their Inkjet division. If you thought his comments were incorrect,
    >>> you need to stop and give some thought.
    >>>
    >>> Just MO
    >>>
    >>> Mickey
  46. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    Frank wrote:

    > measekite wrote:
    >
    > So now you have the answer to my weird behavior...yep...I'm drunk again
    > and still posting false information about ink and printers that I know
    > nothing about.
    > That's what we drunks do. :-)
    >
    > measekit
    >


    Sorry all, but Frank is right.
    I'm always drunk and still posting false information about ink and
    printers that I know absolutely nothing about.
    How weird is that huh?
    But that's what we drunk morons do best. :-)
    One other thing that I really like to do. When I stick my brown tongue
    up Frankie Crankie's Ass I never, ever wash it! Can you believe it?
    Hummm that's delicious!!!
    Oh I know, that probably makes some of you normal people really sick but
    not me!
    Hell I'm already a complete hopeless sicko!
    As you all can readily tell.

    measekit
  47. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    Frank wrote:

    > measekite wrote:
    >
    > So now you have the real, truthful answer to my weird, psychotic
    > behavior...yep...I'm drunk again and still posting false information
    > about ink and printers that I know absolutely nothing about.
    > How weird is that huh?
    > But that's what we drunk morons do. :-)
    > One other thing that I really like to do. When I stick my brown tongue
    > up Frankie Crankie's Ass I never you wash it!
    > Hummm that delicious!!!
    > Oh I know. that probably makes some of you normal people sick but not me!
    > Hell I'm already a real sicko!
    >
    > measekite
    Sorry all, but again Frank is right.
    I'm always drunk and still posting false information about ink and
    printers that I know absolutely nothing about and probably never will!
    How weird is that huh? Well it's normal for me.
    But that's what we drunk morons do best. :-)
    One other thing that I really like to do. When I stick my brown tongue
    up Frankie Crankie's Ass I never, ever wash it! Can you believe it?
    Hummm that's delicious!!!
    Oh I know, that probably makes some of you normal people really sick but
    not me!
    Hell I'm already a complete hopeless sicko!
    As you all can readily tell.

    measekit
  48. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    Thanks... it would be more enlightening without the typos, grammatical
    and spelling errors and the like, which would have been less likely to
    occur had I not been writing it at some ungodly hour, after a long day
    of other stuff...!

    Art

    Stevelee wrote:

    > Thanks Art. Your post is an enlightening one to me.
    >
    > Arthur Entlich wrote:
    >
    >> What makes something look black on paper is how well it absorbs light,
    >> and how little are reflected back. Black is the absence of light.
    >>
    >> Dye inks typically are a formulation of several colored dyes mixed
    >
    <cut>
  49. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    Frank wrote:

    > measekite wrote:
    >
    > So now you have the answer to my weird behavior...yep...I'm drunk again
    > and still posting false information about ink and printers that I know
    > nothing about.
    > That's what we drunks do. :-)
    >
    > Frank
    >
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