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Liquid Cooling and Core 2 Duo fan sensors...

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August 17, 2006 3:27:51 AM

I read somewhere that the new C2D's require some kind of sensor on the mobo that connects to the CPU fan and that the machine will not boot without that. Now I'm wanting to do a LCS, but the CPU block doesn't have a fan... will this keep it from booting/ running properly?
August 17, 2006 3:49:13 AM

I recall someone saying that they booted a C2D with absolutely NO heatsink or fan on the chip. So I find what you heard hard to believe. No reason not to try is there?
August 17, 2006 3:54:02 AM

Some motherboards have a low fan speed alarm for the cpu, it may even shut down the computer depending on how the bios is configured. Just disable it in the bios. Worst case you plug a fan in long enough to enter the bios and fix it. I had similar problem on my WCS. The computer just kept beeping until I turned the alarm off in bios and never had problem again.
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August 17, 2006 4:18:49 AM

I swear I read somewhere (I'm looking for it) that said a big reason why the 975P boards won't work with C2D is b/c of some sensor that the C2D requires in order to POST. Hence the 975X. (granted there were probably some other tweaks the the 975X, but that was the big compatability issue) This sensor, if you will, helped the system manage temps by controlling all the fans in the case... I'm gonna just have to find the article to show you what I mean. :p 
August 17, 2006 4:29:50 AM

I have 3 water cooled systems, 2 using 975 chipset boards and another using a 955 chipset motherboard. The one with an E6600 has no sensor fans plugged into the motherboard and there is no trouble with the system. It may depend on the motherboard, but seeing as I am using Intel motherboards, D97XBX's, and an Intel E6600, there should be no problem with other motherboards.
August 17, 2006 4:33:31 AM

AWSOME :D  Now, I just need to figure out how to setup my LCS. I understand the basics and principals of LCS, but when it comes to actually setting one up... I've never done it and I'm clueless. :( 
August 17, 2006 6:25:23 AM

Assuming, for the moment, that you are just intending to cool the CPU, You need to decide if you are bound by a budget. For the low cost solution, there are premade kits such as those offerred by Vantec and Thermaltake. Since the Core 2 Duo does not consume as much energy as the previous Prescott procs you know it won't produce as much heat either. Given that, if you are limited in funds then the BigWater kit would probably suffice. However, as I am not a very big fan of such kits, I only offer it as one possiblity for you. In this area, premade kits will, generally, cost between $80 - $150.

There are kits offerred by manufacturers which are comprised of much higher quality equiptment like those offerred by Swiftech and Danger Den. However, those kits are more expensive and you would be loath to find one less than $200.

Ultimately, if watercooling is your cooling solution of choice than you will find that Do-It-Yourself (D.I.Y.) is where you will end up. It is more expensive, although a basic kit in this area (for just cooling the CPU) will cost about as much as the specialty kits offerred by Swiftech and Danger Den. The difference in DIY is that you will probably end up using a cross section of equiptment from a multitude of companies like a pump and waterblock from Swiftech, Reservoir from Danger Den, tubing from Tygon, etc.

The setup will, most likely be:

Reservoir - pump - CPU waterblock - radiator - reservoir

You'll need the following equiptment:
Tubing, clamps, CPU waterblock, Reservoir, pump, radiator, cooling liquid, coolsleeves (optional)

Tubing:
Tygon 1/2in. ID 11/16in. OD Laboratory Tubing #R3603 (10ft) $22.50
http://www.sidewindercomputers.com/ty1idx11odx3.html

Clamps:
Breeze Miniature Hose Clamp 7/16 in. to 25/32 in. (10) $3.60
http://www.sidewindercomputers.com/brmihocl7int1.html

CPU Waterblock:
Swiftech STORM Rev 2 Universal High Performance block $80
http://www.sidewindercomputers.com/swstunhipebl.html

OR

Swiftech Apogee Extreme Performance block $50
http://www.sidewindercomputers.com/swapexpebl.html

Reservoir
Danger Den Single 5 1/4" Bay Reservoir $30
http://www.dangerdenstore.com/home.php?cat=27
*This is meerly one type of reservoir. Your taste may very here

Pump:
Swiftech MCP655 12v DC Pump $77
http://www.sidewindercomputers.com/swmc12vdcpu.html

Radiator:
Black Ice XtremeII Radiator (dual 120mm) $43
http://www.dangerdenstore.com/product.php?productid=199...

OR

Black Ice Xtreme Radiator (single 120mm) $33
http://www.dangerdenstore.com/product.php?productid=1&c...

Coolant:
Primochill ICE (nonconductive) $20
http://www.voyeurmods.com/index.php?action=item&id=1654...

OR

Swiftech Hydrix (conductive) add distilled water $2
http://www.voyeurmods.com/index.php?action=item&id=1591...

Coolsleeves 625 (helps to make sure hose doesn't kink in tight bends $2.60 per length
http://www.sidewindercomputers.com/swco625.html
August 17, 2006 6:44:49 AM

Jack,

I also have an Innovatek cooling system on my third system. The components of the three that I've used are :

- CPU waterblocks - Dangerden TDX, Innovatek XX- Flow, Aquacomputer Cuplex XT

Of those 3, the Cuplex XT was a couple degrees cooler when using a Pentium 955EE (hot chip)

- GPU waterblocks - Dangerden Maze4 Acetal, Innovatek Graph-O-matic, Aquacomputer X1900 Aquagratix and 7800GTX Aquagraphix

Of those, the Innovatek is the worst. The Maze4 works well for a universal block , but I prefer the full coverage Aquacomputer blocks, cool the memory. The Innovatek full coverage blocks might be just as good, but have no experience with them.

- Pumps - Dangerden D5, Innovatek HPPS 12V, Aquacomputer aquastream

Of those 3, the Innovatek is the noisiest. I like the D5, it's quiet and the speed is adjustable, but a little big and clumbsy if you want to use G1/4 fittings, since you'd need reducers. I'm comparing the noise and vibration at about the same flow for the D5. At the setting of 5 it is quite noisy as well.

- Reservoirs - Aquacomputer aquatube, Innovatek Tank-O-matic, Alphacool 5.25 inch bay

Of those the Alphacool is quite noisy. It sounds like a leaky faucet if it isn't filled to the top. The Innovatek is easy to fill and can be placed inside or outside of the case. The aquatube is nice to look at, but if you use it with the aquabay, you'll have to fill your PC with it standing on it's back.


Hope this helps with your decisions in building a watercooled system. Probably mixing and matching from different companies would make the best overall system. However, be careful of tubing sizes. I use 8mm/10mm tubing with Innovatek fittings because they aren't prone to leaks. HAd a hard time at first with 1/2" tubing and Dangerden stuff.
I live in Tokyo where Aquacomputer and Innovatek stuff is easy to come by. Good luck

-Babbler
August 17, 2006 7:10:30 AM

The article you are looking for is Game Over? Core 2 Duo Knocks Out Athlon 64 on Tom's Hardware.com.
http://www.tomshardware.com/2006/07/14/core2_duo_knocks...

The part deals with the PECI, which manages the fans in the system. Quoting the part of the article specifically related to this:
Quote:
But PECI has one downside: You need a PECI-compatible motherboard, which means that it either has a manager component or simulates it by sending a dummy signal to the processor. If the signal isn't there, systems with a Core 2 Duo or Core 2 Extreme will not boot! This is also the reason why it turned out that you will need to replace even a 975X motherboard, although technically it could have supported Core 2 Duo.


This may have been fixed by BIOS upgrades to the 975 chipset, but I haven't looked into it yet, so don't quote me on it. If some of you have managed to build systems without this feature, maybe Intel fixed it in their final design and made it optional instead of mandatory.
August 17, 2006 7:11:40 AM

I love aquacomputer products. I am also a big fan of Alphacool. But, here in the US those products are, generally, difficult to acquire. I had to order Alphacool and Aquacomputer products from Europe and I had to pay a premium for them. Here in the U.S., though, the most popular guidline is 1/2 ID (for it's high flowrate). While people do use 3/8 ID and 1/4 ID here they are in the minority. This is a shame as some of the equiptment available for those smaller ID sizes I seriously could use if they made it for 1/2 ID. I am about to purchase a new Abit AW9D-MAX board when it becomes available and I plan on adding a second loop to my main rig. My main loop is 1/2 ID but my second one is going to be 3/8. I'll be using it to cool my northbridge and all the voltage regulators around the CPU (I've had to custom make a waterblock for some of that). It sure would have made my life easier, though, if they made some of those fittings available for the smaller diameters, available for 1/2 ID.
August 17, 2006 7:13:17 AM

I know that the newer Abit AW9D-MAX boards are able to run conroes and are prepped for quad core as well.
August 18, 2006 2:58:17 AM

Quote:
The article you are looking for is Game Over? Core 2 Duo Knocks Out Athlon 64 on Tom's Hardware.com.
http://www.tomshardware.com/2006/07/14/core2_duo_knocks...

The part deals with the PECI, which manages the fans in the system. Quoting the part of the article specifically related to this:
But PECI has one downside: You need a PECI-compatible motherboard, which means that it either has a manager component or simulates it by sending a dummy signal to the processor. If the signal isn't there, systems with a Core 2 Duo or Core 2 Extreme will not boot! This is also the reason why it turned out that you will need to replace even a 975X motherboard, although technically it could have supported Core 2 Duo.


This may have been fixed by BIOS upgrades to the 975 chipset, but I haven't looked into it yet, so don't quote me on it. If some of you have managed to build systems without this feature, maybe Intel fixed it in their final design and made it optional instead of mandatory.

THANKS EVIL! I knew I wasn't crazy! LOL :twisted:
August 18, 2006 3:48:45 AM

8 feet is pretty long. I don't know if thoes little pumps can handle that much head loss. But thats ok there are plenty of other pumps that can you just won't find them in a computer store.
August 18, 2006 4:17:37 AM

Using a waterchiller involves quite alot of work, especially having to insulate the tubing - that is a pain because it takes up so much space inside a computer.

Have you considered a peltier? I use one on my CPU and both idle and under load temps are 0 celsius. A Peltier basically ignores the ambient temps. As long as you have a decent water loop to cool the peltier you'd be fine.
August 18, 2006 4:26:02 AM

Quote:

You should try Swiftech Storm, another one of those injector designed hi-restriction WB.



The Swiftech Storm's threads are not G1/4 and I'm using all 8mm/10mm tubing with Innovatek fittings. I wouldn't be able to use that block without using a lot of reducers/adapters.

Right now I'm using an E6600, which runs very cool: 38C idle and 42C after playing BF2 for a couple hours. My other rig with the 955EE I let my girlfriend use to play AOE III; she usually doesn't play for more than 2 hours so it operating at 58C isn't enough to warrant me changing the system. My third system, which is a file server, runs a P4 630, but I will change this to a E6300 to save on energy once I find a cheaper Intel 965 chipset motherboard that has RAID and isn't a D975XBX, already have 2 of those. THe DG965WH is the one I'm waiting for but hasn't hit the stores here yet.
August 18, 2006 4:31:48 AM

Quote:
8 feet is pretty long. I don't know if thoes little pumps can handle that much head loss. But thats ok there are plenty of other pumps that can you just won't find them in a computer store.


Yeah, that is what is worrying me the most --- the goal is to get the heat out of the room as it gets a little toasty in here if the door is shut. I have 3 rigs running, a total of 12 hard drives, 2 radeon (higher, not highest end) cards, the CPUs and monitor. :)  ....

The smaller pumps are built to push through say 3 or 4 feet of tubing, I don't think it can take 16 total feet (8 feet both ways). It is a project right now in design phase.

The other component is summer, as the garage gets hot (> 85 deg F ambient). So I need some other way to pump the heat than just an air cooled radiator, so I was thinking a refrigerator water chiller -- if I do that, then I calculated I could easily remove up to about 2000 watts of power which would take me pretty much fanless on all 3 rigs.

If you don't have much vertical change in the 16 feet and it's straight tubing, it should be fine. What ID tubing do you want to use? If you use 1/2" or larger it would be best. Another thing, if you have a radiator in your garage, why not use an A/C pump in the garage as well with a relay so that it turns on with your PC? If your radiator is large enough, like a car radiator, you should be able to get the temperature close enough to ambient so that even if it is 85F in your garage your system would be able to cool adequately. If you have cold winters though, you should run some kind of antifreeze.
August 18, 2006 4:33:55 AM

Yeah, I'd be a bit concerned if the chiller were operating in a high temp enviroment - especially with the condensation if you don't insulate the tubing.

Take a look at this chiller offerred by Be Cooling, it's right around the price range you mentioned.

http://www.aquastealth.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPRO...
August 18, 2006 11:58:05 AM

Calculating the head loss through the system is pretty easy, just use a "Bournelli" (probably spelled wrong) equation. Just google it or look in any fluid mechanics book. 85 F is not that high for a water cooler to operate in, just make sure the mass flow rate of the system is high enough tho keep the temp change low. You may also need 2 radiators to cool the fluid that quickly. The other thing you could try is useing a large resivour (spelling) of several liters. This will also help with overall temp change and if located right can help with the head loss issue in your system.
!