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Creatures is eating my brain.

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Anonymous
February 11, 2005 2:39:32 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.creatures (More info?)

I've decided that Creatures is eating my brain. I look at all the dev stuff
I do, and realise that pretty much all of it is Creatures-related. I reckon
Creatures is at fault for making me want to do AI/AL stuff at uni.

Anyone else noticed similar things, or am I alone?
--
- nornagon
http://www.nornrock.com
mailto: nornagon@gmail.com
DS Species range: 10001-10100

More about : creatures eating brain

February 11, 2005 2:39:33 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.creatures (More info?)

"nornagon" <nornagon@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:420b564d@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
> I've decided that Creatures is eating my brain. I look at all the dev
> stuff
> I do, and realise that pretty much all of it is Creatures-related. I
> reckon
> Creatures is at fault for making me want to do AI/AL stuff at uni.
>
> Anyone else noticed similar things, or am I alone?
> --
> - nornagon
> http://www.nornrock.com
> mailto: nornagon@gmail.com
> DS Species range: 10001-10100


I wonder how many CC members chose their degree under the influence of
Creatures.

I think a lot of us are in roughly the same fields now: programming, web
design or media. So, do you think Creatures influenced us into these fields
or did our interests bring us to Creatures? ;) 

Don
AmberCreatures
http://creatures.amberz.net
Anonymous
February 11, 2005 2:39:33 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.creatures (More info?)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

nornagon wrote:
| I've decided that Creatures is eating my brain. I look at all the dev
stuff
| I do, and realise that pretty much all of it is Creatures-related. I
reckon
| Creatures is at fault for making me want to do AI/AL stuff at uni.
|
| Anyone else noticed similar things, or am I alone?

What the foo are you talking about? Eem completely unaffected. I can
quit anybibble I want to!
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Anonymous
February 11, 2005 2:39:34 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.creatures (More info?)

"Don" <admin@amberz.nospam.net> wrote in message
news:cug893$lu6$1@hercules.btinternet.com...
> "nornagon" <nornagon@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:420b564d@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
>> I've decided that Creatures is eating my brain. I look at all the dev
>> stuff
>> I do, and realise that pretty much all of it is Creatures-related. I
>> reckon
>> Creatures is at fault for making me want to do AI/AL stuff at uni.
>>
>> Anyone else noticed similar things, or am I alone?

Note: There are much worse things that can happen to one's brain. Compared
to the majority who just laze around in university...

In short, if that's having your brain eaten, then BRAIN EATENEDERS PRIDE!
*waves flag; hands to random productive (admirable) person*

>> --
>> - nornagon
>> http://www.nornrock.com
>> mailto: nornagon@gmail.com
>> DS Species range: 10001-10100
>
>
> I wonder how many CC members chose their degree under the influence of
> Creatures.
>
> I think a lot of us are in roughly the same fields now: programming, web
> design or media. So, do you think Creatures influenced us into these
> fields or did our interests bring us to Creatures? ;) 

I'd guess the latter, but with a feedback loop involved somewhere. Any
influences related to web design or media seem... unlikely. Programming?
Much more likely. Also, I/we suspect that the sorts of people who enjoy
Creatures are the same sorts of people who go into programming; other sorts,
such as accountants, likely would find it dull or something similar.

--
The Triad
User of 'Thingamajig!'
Refractor Dragon -=(UDIC)=-
Anonymous
February 11, 2005 3:30:40 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.creatures (More info?)

On 2005-02-10, Don <admin@amberz.nospam.net> wrote:
> "nornagon" <nornagon@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:420b564d@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
>> I've decided that Creatures is eating my brain. I look at all the dev
>> stuff
>> I do, and realise that pretty much all of it is Creatures-related. I
>> reckon
>> Creatures is at fault for making me want to do AI/AL stuff at uni.
>>
>> Anyone else noticed similar things, or am I alone?
>> --
>> - nornagon
>> http://www.nornrock.com
>> mailto: nornagon@gmail.com
>> DS Species range: 10001-10100
>
>
> I wonder how many CC members chose their degree under the influence of
> Creatures.
>
> I think a lot of us are in roughly the same fields now: programming, web
> design or media. So, do you think Creatures influenced us into these fields
> or did our interests bring us to Creatures? ;) 
>
> Don
> AmberCreatures
> http://creatures.amberz.net

Hey, it got me to like NNTP... Although I think it hasn't had that much
inpact on choosing my subject for uni...
--
emmel <the_emmel*you-know-what-that's-for*@gmx.net>
(Don't forget to remove the ** bit)

Official AGC feedback maniac

"God is playing creatures - and we're the norns."

"A hundred dead are a tragedy - a hundred thousand are statistics."

"I guess you can call yourself lucky." -
"I could, but Linda suits me a little better... :) 
Things called lucky tend to get hit by trucks."

Hi, I'm a .sig virus. Just copy me to your .signature. And don't worry.
Anonymous
February 11, 2005 3:31:37 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.creatures (More info?)

On 2005-02-10, bd <bdonlan@bd.beginyourfear.com> wrote:
>
> nornagon wrote:
>| I've decided that Creatures is eating my brain. I look at all the dev
> stuff
>| I do, and realise that pretty much all of it is Creatures-related. I
> reckon
>| Creatures is at fault for making me want to do AI/AL stuff at uni.
>|
>| Anyone else noticed similar things, or am I alone?
>
> What the foo are you talking about? Eem completely unaffected. I can
> quit anybibble I want to!

Flib dat!
--
emmel <the_emmel*you-know-what-that's-for*@gmx.net>
(Don't forget to remove the ** bit)

Official AGC feedback maniac

"God is playing creatures - and we're the norns."

"A hundred dead are a tragedy - a hundred thousand are statistics."

"I guess you can call yourself lucky." -
"I could, but Linda suits me a little better... :) 
Things called lucky tend to get hit by trucks."

Hi, I'm a .sig virus. Just copy me to your .signature. And don't worry.
Anonymous
February 11, 2005 9:09:28 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.creatures (More info?)

The Triad InSaNiTised:

> "Don" <admin@amberz.nospam.net> wrote in message
> news:cug893$lu6$1@hercules.btinternet.com...
>> "nornagon" <nornagon@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:420b564d@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
>>> I've decided that Creatures is eating my brain. I look at all the dev
>>> stuff
>>> I do, and realise that pretty much all of it is Creatures-related. I
>>> reckon
>>> Creatures is at fault for making me want to do AI/AL stuff at uni.
>>>
>>> Anyone else noticed similar things, or am I alone?
>
> Note: There are much worse things that can happen to one's brain.
> Compared to the majority who just laze around in university...
>
> In short, if that's having your brain eaten, then BRAIN EATENEDERS PRIDE!
> *waves flag; hands to random productive (admirable) person*
>

Lol, very true. I've enjoyed every moment of my Creatures days... except
when somebody decided to hotlink my program without crediting me, and they
rued the day, I'm sure.

>>
>>
>> I wonder how many CC members chose their degree under the influence of
>> Creatures.
>>
>> I think a lot of us are in roughly the same fields now: programming, web
>> design or media. So, do you think Creatures influenced us into these
>> fields or did our interests bring us to Creatures? ;) 
>
> I'd guess the latter, but with a feedback loop involved somewhere. Any
> influences related to web design or media seem... unlikely. Programming?
> Much more likely. Also, I/we suspect that the sorts of people who enjoy
> Creatures are the same sorts of people who go into programming; other
> sorts, such as accountants, likely would find it dull or something
> similar.
>

I don't know, I go even further than that, I think. I want to do
neuropsychology and biochemistry and stuff... Oh, and of course
programming, and maybe CG art... :D 

--
- nornagon
http://www.nornrock.com
mailto: nornagon@gmail.com
DS Species range: 10001-10100
Anonymous
February 11, 2005 9:09:29 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.creatures (More info?)

"nornagon" <nornagon@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:420c5a79@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
> The Triad InSaNiTised:
>
>> "Don" <admin@amberz.nospam.net> wrote in message
>> news:cug893$lu6$1@hercules.btinternet.com...
>>> "nornagon" <nornagon@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:420b564d@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
>>>> I've decided that Creatures is eating my brain. I look at all the dev
>>>> stuff
>>>> I do, and realise that pretty much all of it is Creatures-related. I
>>>> reckon
>>>> Creatures is at fault for making me want to do AI/AL stuff at uni.
>>>>
>>>> Anyone else noticed similar things, or am I alone?
>>
>> Note: There are much worse things that can happen to one's brain.
>> Compared to the majority who just laze around in university...
>>
>> In short, if that's having your brain eaten, then BRAIN EATENEDERS PRIDE!
>> *waves flag; hands to random productive (admirable) person*
>>
>
> Lol, very true. I've enjoyed every moment of my Creatures days... except
> when somebody decided to hotlink my program without crediting me, and they
> rued the day, I'm sure.

*smiles* Did you move the program to somewhere else on your site, and put a
somewhat... different program in its original (hotlinked) location?

>>>
>>>
>>> I wonder how many CC members chose their degree under the influence of
>>> Creatures.
>>>
>>> I think a lot of us are in roughly the same fields now: programming, web
>>> design or media. So, do you think Creatures influenced us into these
>>> fields or did our interests bring us to Creatures? ;) 
>>
>> I'd guess the latter, but with a feedback loop involved somewhere. Any
>> influences related to web design or media seem... unlikely.
>> Programming?
>> Much more likely. Also, I/we suspect that the sorts of people who enjoy
>> Creatures are the same sorts of people who go into programming; other
>> sorts, such as accountants, likely would find it dull or something
>> similar.
>>
>
> I don't know, I go even further than that, I think. I want to do
> neuropsychology and biochemistry and stuff... Oh, and of course
> programming, and maybe CG art... :D 

*grins* ...neurology... definitely interested in programming here, but
also in (nearly) all forms of Artificial Life, and particularly in
self-altering programs.

....if one could create a Seed AI which could recursively make itself more
intelligent... or maybe hook up genetic algorithms to a neural net, then at
some point create a feedback loop and allow the neural net to define the
algorithms' goals...

*dreams*

--
The Triad
User of 'Thingamajig!'
Refractor Dragon -=(UDIC)=-
Anonymous
February 15, 2005 12:43:05 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.creatures (More info?)

The Triad InSaNiTised:

> "nornagon" <nornagon@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:420c5a79@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
>> The Triad InSaNiTised:
>>
>>> "Don" <admin@amberz.nospam.net> wrote in message
>>> news:cug893$lu6$1@hercules.btinternet.com...
>>>> "nornagon" <nornagon@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:420b564d@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
>>>>> I've decided that Creatures is eating my brain. I look at all the dev
>>>>> stuff
>>>>> I do, and realise that pretty much all of it is Creatures-related. I
>>>>> reckon
>>>>> Creatures is at fault for making me want to do AI/AL stuff at uni.
>>>>>
>>>>> Anyone else noticed similar things, or am I alone?
>>>
>>> Note: There are much worse things that can happen to one's brain.
>>> Compared to the majority who just laze around in university...
>>>
>>> In short, if that's having your brain eaten, then BRAIN EATENEDERS
>>> PRIDE! *waves flag; hands to random productive (admirable) person*
>>>
>>
>> Lol, very true. I've enjoyed every moment of my Creatures days... except
>> when somebody decided to hotlink my program without crediting me, and
>> they rued the day, I'm sure.
>
> *smiles* Did you move the program to somewhere else on your site, and put
> a
> somewhat... different program in its original (hotlinked) location?
>

Hehe. No, I took a much more direct approach. I flamed the heck out of him.
<eg>

>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I wonder how many CC members chose their degree under the influence of
>>>> Creatures.
>>>>
>>>> I think a lot of us are in roughly the same fields now: programming,
>>>> web design or media. So, do you think Creatures influenced us into
>>>> these fields or did our interests bring us to Creatures? ;) 
>>>
>>> I'd guess the latter, but with a feedback loop involved somewhere. Any
>>> influences related to web design or media seem... unlikely.
>>> Programming?
>>> Much more likely. Also, I/we suspect that the sorts of people who enjoy
>>> Creatures are the same sorts of people who go into programming; other
>>> sorts, such as accountants, likely would find it dull or something
>>> similar.
>>>
>>
>> I don't know, I go even further than that, I think. I want to do
>> neuropsychology and biochemistry and stuff... Oh, and of course
>> programming, and maybe CG art... :D 
>
> *grins* ...neurology... definitely interested in programming here, but
> also in (nearly) all forms of Artificial Life, and particularly in
> self-altering programs.

Yupyup, neurology's really interesting. And all forms of AL. (Did you know
that Conway's Game of Life is Turing complete? Yep, someone built a Turing
machine in Life.)

>
> ...if one could create a Seed AI which could recursively make itself more
> intelligent... or maybe hook up genetic algorithms to a neural net, then
> at some point create a feedback loop and allow the neural net to define
> the algorithms' goals...
>
> *dreams*
>

Hehe, yeah, I've thought about that. If you give a very simple
(comparatively) AI a hell of a lot of time and some genetic algorithms...
voíla, human-like intelligence!

--
- nornagon
http://www.nornrock.com
mailto: nornagon@gmail.com
DS Species range: 10001-10100
Anonymous
February 15, 2005 12:43:06 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.creatures (More info?)

"nornagon" <nornagon@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:421080c6@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
> The Triad InSaNiTised:
>
>> "nornagon" <nornagon@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:420c5a79@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
>>> The Triad InSaNiTised:
>>>
>>>> "Don" <admin@amberz.nospam.net> wrote in message
>>>> news:cug893$lu6$1@hercules.btinternet.com...
>>>>> "nornagon" <nornagon@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:420b564d@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
>>>>>> I've decided that Creatures is eating my brain. I look at all the dev
>>>>>> stuff
>>>>>> I do, and realise that pretty much all of it is Creatures-related. I
>>>>>> reckon
>>>>>> Creatures is at fault for making me want to do AI/AL stuff at uni.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Anyone else noticed similar things, or am I alone?
>>>>
>>>> Note: There are much worse things that can happen to one's brain.
>>>> Compared to the majority who just laze around in university...
>>>>
>>>> In short, if that's having your brain eaten, then BRAIN EATENEDERS
>>>> PRIDE! *waves flag; hands to random productive (admirable) person*
>>>>
>>>
>>> Lol, very true. I've enjoyed every moment of my Creatures days... except
>>> when somebody decided to hotlink my program without crediting me, and
>>> they rued the day, I'm sure.
>>
>> *smiles* Did you move the program to somewhere else on your site, and
>> put
>> a
>> somewhat... different program in its original (hotlinked) location?
>>
>
> Hehe. No, I took a much more direct approach. I flamed the heck out of
> him.
> <eg>

Hah. Still, it doesn't have the same... insidiousness!

>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I wonder how many CC members chose their degree under the influence of
>>>>> Creatures.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think a lot of us are in roughly the same fields now: programming,
>>>>> web design or media. So, do you think Creatures influenced us into
>>>>> these fields or did our interests bring us to Creatures? ;) 
>>>>
>>>> I'd guess the latter, but with a feedback loop involved somewhere. Any
>>>> influences related to web design or media seem... unlikely.
>>>> Programming?
>>>> Much more likely. Also, I/we suspect that the sorts of people who
>>>> enjoy
>>>> Creatures are the same sorts of people who go into programming; other
>>>> sorts, such as accountants, likely would find it dull or something
>>>> similar.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I don't know, I go even further than that, I think. I want to do
>>> neuropsychology and biochemistry and stuff... Oh, and of course
>>> programming, and maybe CG art... :D 
>>
>> *grins* ...neurology... definitely interested in programming here, but
>> also in (nearly) all forms of Artificial Life, and particularly in
>> self-altering programs.
>
> Yupyup, neurology's really interesting. And all forms of AL.

*nods*

> (Did you know
> that Conway's Game of Life is Turing complete? Yep, someone built a Turing
> machine in Life.)

Ooo. *blinks*

....can it simulate another Turing machine running Half-Life?

>>
>> ...if one could create a Seed AI which could recursively make itself more
>> intelligent... or maybe hook up genetic algorithms to a neural net, then
>> at some point create a feedback loop and allow the neural net to define
>> the algorithms' goals...
>>
>> *dreams*
>>
>
> Hehe, yeah, I've thought about that. If you give a very simple
> (comparatively) AI a hell of a lot of time and some genetic algorithms...
> voíla, human-like intelligence!

....we can hope... *hopes*

The thing is--if it's in theory simple, then why has no one done it yet?
More to the point, how does one do it?

--
The Triad
User of 'Thingamajig!'
Refractor Dragon -=(UDIC)=-
Anonymous
February 16, 2005 12:06:57 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.creatures (More info?)

The Triad InSaNiTised:

> "nornagon" <nornagon@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:421080c6@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
>> The Triad InSaNiTised:
>>
>>> "nornagon" <nornagon@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:420c5a79@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
>>>> The Triad InSaNiTised:
>>>>
>>>>> "Don" <admin@amberz.nospam.net> wrote in message
>>>>> news:cug893$lu6$1@hercules.btinternet.com...
>>>>>> "nornagon" <nornagon@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:420b564d@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
>>>>>>> I've decided that Creatures is eating my brain. I look at all the
>>>>>>> dev stuff
>>>>>>> I do, and realise that pretty much all of it is Creatures-related. I
>>>>>>> reckon
>>>>>>> Creatures is at fault for making me want to do AI/AL stuff at uni.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Anyone else noticed similar things, or am I alone?
>>>>>
>>>>> Note: There are much worse things that can happen to one's brain.
>>>>> Compared to the majority who just laze around in university...
>>>>>
>>>>> In short, if that's having your brain eaten, then BRAIN EATENEDERS
>>>>> PRIDE! *waves flag; hands to random productive (admirable) person*
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Lol, very true. I've enjoyed every moment of my Creatures days...
>>>> except when somebody decided to hotlink my program without crediting
>>>> me, and they rued the day, I'm sure.
>>>
>>> *smiles* Did you move the program to somewhere else on your site, and
>>> put
>>> a
>>> somewhat... different program in its original (hotlinked) location?
>>>
>>
>> Hehe. No, I took a much more direct approach. I flamed the heck out of
>> him.
>> <eg>
>
> Hah. Still, it doesn't have the same... insidiousness!
>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I wonder how many CC members chose their degree under the influence
>>>>>> of Creatures.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think a lot of us are in roughly the same fields now: programming,
>>>>>> web design or media. So, do you think Creatures influenced us into
>>>>>> these fields or did our interests bring us to Creatures? ;) 
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd guess the latter, but with a feedback loop involved somewhere.
>>>>> Any
>>>>> influences related to web design or media seem... unlikely.
>>>>> Programming?
>>>>> Much more likely. Also, I/we suspect that the sorts of people who
>>>>> enjoy
>>>>> Creatures are the same sorts of people who go into programming; other
>>>>> sorts, such as accountants, likely would find it dull or something
>>>>> similar.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I don't know, I go even further than that, I think. I want to do
>>>> neuropsychology and biochemistry and stuff... Oh, and of course
>>>> programming, and maybe CG art... :D 
>>>
>>> *grins* ...neurology... definitely interested in programming here, but
>>> also in (nearly) all forms of Artificial Life, and particularly in
>>> self-altering programs.
>>
>> Yupyup, neurology's really interesting. And all forms of AL.
>
> *nods*
>
>> (Did you know
>> that Conway's Game of Life is Turing complete? Yep, someone built a
>> Turing machine in Life.)
>
> Ooo. *blinks*
>
> ...can it simulate another Turing machine running Half-Life?

*groans and calls 1800-BADJOKE*

But yes, Turing machines can, by definition, do anything.

>
>>>
>>> ...if one could create a Seed AI which could recursively make itself
>>> more
>>> intelligent... or maybe hook up genetic algorithms to a neural net,
>>> then at some point create a feedback loop and allow the neural net to
>>> define the algorithms' goals...
>>>
>>> *dreams*
>>>
>>
>> Hehe, yeah, I've thought about that. If you give a very simple
>> (comparatively) AI a hell of a lot of time and some genetic algorithms...
>> voíla, human-like intelligence!
>
> ...we can hope... *hopes*
>
> The thing is--if it's in theory simple, then why has no one done it yet?
> More to the point, how does one do it?
>

Good question. Maybe they're all stupid. :p 

--
- nornagon
http://www.nornrock.com
mailto: nornagon@gmail.com
DS Species range: 10001-10100
Anonymous
February 17, 2005 12:11:02 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.creatures (More info?)

Weird. Before I got into creatures, I toyed around with Conway's life
some.
Anonymous
February 17, 2005 12:13:47 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.creatures (More info?)

Be sure to bring us back a genome editor for us so that norns dont have
ALL the fun, nornagon.
Anonymous
February 17, 2005 7:51:07 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.creatures (More info?)

<snip>
>>> (Did you know
>>> that Conway's Game of Life is Turing complete? Yep, someone built a
>>> Turing machine in Life.)
>>
>> Ooo. *blinks*
>>
>> ...can it simulate another Turing machine running Half-Life?
>
> *groans and calls 1800-BADJOKE*
>
> But yes, Turing machines can, by definition, do anything.

Er, we were being serious. Is there some reason why this wouldn't be
feasible? (To make our particular curiosity somewhat clearer, we're also
wondering whether it would be possible to construct a Turing machine
entirely out of pings (or similar signals), without having to install
specialised software on all the computers/networking thingamajigs involved.)

>>
>>>>
>>>> ...if one could create a Seed AI which could recursively make itself
>>>> more
>>>> intelligent... or maybe hook up genetic algorithms to a neural net,
>>>> then at some point create a feedback loop and allow the neural net to
>>>> define the algorithms' goals...
>>>>
>>>> *dreams*
>>>>
>>>
>>> Hehe, yeah, I've thought about that. If you give a very simple
>>> (comparatively) AI a hell of a lot of time and some genetic
>>> algorithms...
>>> voíla, human-like intelligence!
>>
>> ...we can hope... *hopes*
>>
>> The thing is--if it's in theory simple, then why has no one done it yet?
>> More to the point, how does one do it?
>>
>
> Good question. Maybe they're all stupid. :p 

Hmm.

....we have to find out /how/...

--
The Triad
User of 'Thingamajig!'
Refractor Dragon -=(UDIC)=-
Anonymous
February 17, 2005 7:51:08 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.creatures (More info?)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

The Triad wrote:
| <snip>
|
|>>>(Did you know
|>>>that Conway's Game of Life is Turing complete? Yep, someone built a
|>>>Turing machine in Life.)
|>>
|>>Ooo. *blinks*
|>>
|>>...can it simulate another Turing machine running Half-Life?
|>
|>*groans and calls 1800-BADJOKE*
|>
|>But yes, Turing machines can, by definition, do anything.
|
|
| Er, we were being serious. Is there some reason why this wouldn't be
| feasible? (To make our particular curiosity somewhat clearer, we're also
| wondering whether it would be possible to construct a Turing machine
| entirely out of pings (or similar signals), without having to install
| specialised software on all the computers/networking thingamajigs
involved.)

A universal turing machine (like a computer*) requires a program. If
that program is another UTM, so be it. However, the program must still
be present. In other words, yes, you'd need to arrange the proper
emulation software on the UTMs involved.

* - technically, a computer is not a turing machine, as it does not have
infinite storage.
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Version: GnuPG v1.4.0-ecc0.1.6 (GNU/Linux)
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Anonymous
February 17, 2005 8:38:13 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.creatures (More info?)

nornagon wrote:
> But yes, Turing machines can, by definition, do anything.


Can a Turing machine make a bowl of soup? Can it walk a dog? More
importantly, can a Turing machine solve the Halting Problem?


-Will Dwinnell
http://will.dwinnell.com
Anonymous
February 18, 2005 10:56:40 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.creatures (More info?)

That's because Deep Blue lacks the knowledge to swim. It only knows how
to play chess. Deep blue in the sea would probably just gurgle
"Checkmate" at the bottom all day.
February 18, 2005 4:32:17 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.creatures (More info?)

"Predictor" <predictr@bellatlantic.net> wrote in message
news:1108690693.823094.106240@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> nornagon wrote:
>> But yes, Turing machines can, by definition, do anything.
>
>
> Can a Turing machine make a bowl of soup? Can it walk a dog? More
> importantly, can a Turing machine solve the Halting Problem?
>
>
> -Will Dwinnell
> http://will.dwinnell.com
>

What was that quote from either Steve or Toby about throwing Deep Blue into
the water... That with all it's AI it would still sink.

Don
AmberCreatures
http://creatures.amberz.net
Anonymous
February 18, 2005 11:38:58 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.creatures (More info?)

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Hash: RIPEMD160

Vadim wrote:
| Predictor wrote:
|
|
|>>nornagon wrote:
|>>
|>>>But yes, Turing machines can, by definition, do anything.
|>>
|>>
|>>Can a Turing machine make a bowl of soup? Can it walk a dog?
|
| Of course it can!
|
| It could make a virtual bowl of soup or walk a virtual dog inside
| the world it simulates.
|
| I mean, we all play Creatures games here :-D
|
|
|>>More importantly, can a Turing machine solve the Halting
|>>Problem?
|
| Nothing can solve the halting problem. For example, does a
| program that search for this post in Pi halt? We don't know.
| It's perfectly possible that this post doesn't even happen in
| the infinity of Pi. Or maybe it does.

IIRC, wasn't it proven that it does?

Better to use the original proof (paraphrased):

Let H(p,i) be a function which takes as input the strings p and i and
returns a boolean value indicating whether running the program
represented by p with input i halts.

Let T(s) be a program which evaluates H(s, s), and halts if H(s, s)
returns false.

Since all algorithms can be represented by strings, T must have such a
string. Call it t.

What is T(t)?
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Anonymous
February 20, 2005 4:36:44 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.creatures (More info?)

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bd wrote:
| Vadim wrote:
| | Predictor wrote:
| |
| |
| |>>nornagon wrote:
| |>>
| |>>>But yes, Turing machines can, by definition, do anything.
| |>>
| |>>
| |>>Can a Turing machine make a bowl of soup? Can it walk a dog?
| |
| | Of course it can!
| |
| | It could make a virtual bowl of soup or walk a virtual dog inside
| | the world it simulates.
| |
| | I mean, we all play Creatures games here :-D
| |
| |
| |>>More importantly, can a Turing machine solve the Halting
| |>>Problem?
| |
| | Nothing can solve the halting problem. For example, does a
| | program that search for this post in Pi halt? We don't know.
| | It's perfectly possible that this post doesn't even happen in
| | the infinity of Pi. Or maybe it does.
|
| IIRC, wasn't it proven that it does?
|
| Better to use the original proof (paraphrased):
|
| Let H(p,i) be a function which takes as input the strings p and i and
| returns a boolean value indicating whether running the program
| represented by p with input i halts.
|
| Let T(s) be a program which evaluates H(s, s), and halts if H(s, s)
| returns false.
|
| Since all algorithms can be represented by strings, T must have such a
| string. Call it t.
|
| What is T(t)?

Now you have to proof that t>t, but I am tired :-)

Thomas
- --
"All my life, I've always wondered, What it would be like to fire a
ballistic missile" - Wonderfully colored plastic war toys, The Dead
Milkmen
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Anonymous
February 21, 2005 11:19:30 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.creatures (More info?)

On 2005-02-18, Don <admin@amberz.nospam.net> wrote:
>
> "Predictor" <predictr@bellatlantic.net> wrote in message
> news:1108690693.823094.106240@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>> nornagon wrote:
>>> But yes, Turing machines can, by definition, do anything.
>>
>>
>> Can a Turing machine make a bowl of soup? Can it walk a dog? More
>> importantly, can a Turing machine solve the Halting Problem?
>>
>>
>> -Will Dwinnell
>> http://will.dwinnell.com
>>
>
> What was that quote from either Steve or Toby about throwing Deep Blue into
> the water... That with all it's AI it would still sink.

Steve. It was a rabbit and Deep Blue. :-)
--
emmel <the_emmel*you-know-what-that's-for*@gmx.net>
(Don't forget to remove the ** bit)

Official AGC feedback maniac

"God is playing creatures - and we're the norns."

"A hundred dead are a tragedy - a hundred thousand are statistics."

"I guess you can call yourself lucky." -
"I could, but Linda suits me a little better... :) 
Things called lucky tend to get hit by trucks."

Hi, I'm a .sig virus. Just copy me to your .signature. And don't worry.
Anonymous
February 21, 2005 4:58:32 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.creatures (More info?)

"bd" <bdonlan@bd.beginyourfear.com> wrote in message
news:eb7fe2-gc8.ln1@bd-home-comp.no-ip.org...
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA256
>
> The Triad wrote:
> | <snip>
> |
> |>>>(Did you know
> |>>>that Conway's Game of Life is Turing complete? Yep, someone built a
> |>>>Turing machine in Life.)
> |>>
> |>>Ooo. *blinks*
> |>>
> |>>...can it simulate another Turing machine running Half-Life?
> |>
> |>*groans and calls 1800-BADJOKE*
> |>
> |>But yes, Turing machines can, by definition, do anything.
> |
> |
> | Er, we were being serious. Is there some reason why this wouldn't be
> | feasible? (To make our particular curiosity somewhat clearer, we're
> also
> | wondering whether it would be possible to construct a Turing machine
> | entirely out of pings (or similar signals), without having to install
> | specialised software on all the computers/networking thingamajigs
> involved.)
>
> A universal turing machine (like a computer*) requires a program. If
> that program is another UTM, so be it. However, the program must still
> be present. In other words, yes, you'd need to arrange the proper
> emulation software on the UTMs involved.
>
> * - technically, a computer is not a turing machine, as it does not have
> infinite storage.

Hmm.

....patterns...

Once one fully understand how to do it, then in theory, it should be...
relatively simple to get started. The act, that is. The understanding
exactly /what/ to do would probably take quite a bit longer, most likely.

--
The Triad
User of 'Thingamajig!'
Refractor Dragon -=(UDIC)=-
Anonymous
February 22, 2005 1:44:38 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.creatures (More info?)

Thomas J. Boschloo InSaNiTised:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> bd wrote:
> | Vadim wrote:
> | | Predictor wrote:
> | |
> | |
> | |>>nornagon wrote:
> | |>>
> | |>>>But yes, Turing machines can, by definition, do anything.
> | |>>
> | |>>
> | |>>Can a Turing machine make a bowl of soup? Can it walk a dog?
> | |
> | | Of course it can!
> | |
> | | It could make a virtual bowl of soup or walk a virtual dog inside
> | | the world it simulates.
> | |
> | | I mean, we all play Creatures games here :-D
> | |
> | |
> | |>>More importantly, can a Turing machine solve the Halting
> | |>>Problem?
> | |
> | | Nothing can solve the halting problem. For example, does a
> | | program that search for this post in Pi halt? We don't know.
> | | It's perfectly possible that this post doesn't even happen in
> | | the infinity of Pi. Or maybe it does.
> |
> | IIRC, wasn't it proven that it does?
> |
> | Better to use the original proof (paraphrased):
> |
> | Let H(p,i) be a function which takes as input the strings p and i and
> | returns a boolean value indicating whether running the program
> | represented by p with input i halts.
> |
> | Let T(s) be a program which evaluates H(s, s), and halts if H(s, s)
> | returns false.
> |
> | Since all algorithms can be represented by strings, T must have such a
> | string. Call it t.
> |
> | What is T(t)?
>
> Now you have to proof that t>t, but I am tired :-)
>

t can't be greater than t. O.o

--
- nornagon
http://www.nornrock.com
mailto: nornagon@gmail.com
DS Species range: 10001-10100
Anonymous
February 22, 2005 1:44:39 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.creatures (More info?)

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Hash: RIPEMD160

nornagon wrote:
| Thomas J. Boschloo InSaNiTised:
|
|
|>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
|>
|>bd wrote:
|>| Vadim wrote:
|>| | Predictor wrote:
|>| |
|>| |
|>| |>>nornagon wrote:
|>| |>>
|>| |>>>But yes, Turing machines can, by definition, do anything.
|>| |>>
|>| |>>
|>| |>>Can a Turing machine make a bowl of soup? Can it walk a dog?
|>| |
|>| | Of course it can!
|>| |
|>| | It could make a virtual bowl of soup or walk a virtual dog inside
|>| | the world it simulates.
|>| |
|>| | I mean, we all play Creatures games here :-D
|>| |
|>| |
|>| |>>More importantly, can a Turing machine solve the Halting
|>| |>>Problem?
|>| |
|>| | Nothing can solve the halting problem. For example, does a
|>| | program that search for this post in Pi halt? We don't know.
|>| | It's perfectly possible that this post doesn't even happen in
|>| | the infinity of Pi. Or maybe it does.
|>|
|>| IIRC, wasn't it proven that it does?
|>|
|>| Better to use the original proof (paraphrased):
|>|
|>| Let H(p,i) be a function which takes as input the strings p and i and
|>| returns a boolean value indicating whether running the program
|>| represented by p with input i halts.
|>|
|>| Let T(s) be a program which evaluates H(s, s), and halts if H(s, s)
|>| returns false.
|>|
|>| Since all algorithms can be represented by strings, T must have such a
|>| string. Call it t.
|>|
|>| What is T(t)?
|>
|>Now you have to proof that t>t, but I am tired :-)
|>
|
|
| t can't be greater than t. O.o
|

Reductio ad absurdum.
(sp?)

Anyway, it's not t>t, it's that T(t) is false if true, but true if
false. Therein lies the contradiction, proving there is no halting
algorithm.
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Anonymous
February 27, 2005 6:33:56 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.creatures (More info?)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

bd wrote:
> nornagon wrote:
> | Thomas J. Boschloo InSaNiTised:
> |
> |
> |>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> |>
> |>bd wrote:
> |>| Vadim wrote:
> |>| | Predictor wrote:
> |>| |
> |>| |
> |>| |>>nornagon wrote:
> |>| |>>
> |>| |>>>But yes, Turing machines can, by definition, do anything.
> |>| |>>
> |>| |>>
> |>| |>>Can a Turing machine make a bowl of soup? Can it walk a dog?
> |>| |
> |>| | Of course it can!
> |>| |
> |>| | It could make a virtual bowl of soup or walk a virtual dog inside
> |>| | the world it simulates.
> |>| |
> |>| | I mean, we all play Creatures games here :-D
> |>| |
> |>| |
> |>| |>>More importantly, can a Turing machine solve the Halting
> |>| |>>Problem?
> |>| |
> |>| | Nothing can solve the halting problem. For example, does a
> |>| | program that search for this post in Pi halt? We don't know.
> |>| | It's perfectly possible that this post doesn't even happen in
> |>| | the infinity of Pi. Or maybe it does.
> |>|
> |>| IIRC, wasn't it proven that it does?
> |>|
> |>| Better to use the original proof (paraphrased):
> |>|
> |>| Let H(p,i) be a function which takes as input the strings p and i and
> |>| returns a boolean value indicating whether running the program
> |>| represented by p with input i halts.
> |>|
> |>| Let T(s) be a program which evaluates H(s, s), and halts if H(s, s)
> |>| returns false.
> |>|
> |>| Since all algorithms can be represented by strings, T must have such a
> |>| string. Call it t.
> |>|
> |>| What is T(t)?
> |>
> |>Now you have to proof that t>t, but I am tired :-)
> |>
> |
> |
> | t can't be greater than t. O.o
> |
>
> Reductio ad absurdum.
> (sp?)
>
> Anyway, it's not t>t, it's that T(t) is false if true, but true if
> false. Therein lies the contradiction, proving there is no halting
> algorithm.

I remember a proof where you would make a list of all possible programs
in an 2d array like:


01100101010
00101100101
11010111000
10011000110

etc.

Then you would prove there was one more 'program' on the turing machine
by taking the first bit from T(1), the second from T(2), etc. and then
reverse all those bits proving an additional program exists that you
didn't count at first.

But that was years ago for me (1996). I don't really remember the
details of what the proof was about but it seemed to me that you could
use something that like to proof that Pi is larger than the Pi you
calculated before.

Thomas
- --
"All my life, I've always wondered, What it would be like to fire a
ballistic missile" - Wonderfully colored plastic war toys, The Dead
Milkmen
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Anonymous
March 2, 2005 3:36:00 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.creatures (More info?)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: RIPEMD160

Thomas J. Boschloo wrote:
| bd wrote:
|
|>>nornagon wrote:
|>>| Thomas J. Boschloo InSaNiTised:
|>>|
|>>|
|>>|>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
|>>|>
|>>|>bd wrote:
|>>|>| Vadim wrote:
|>>|>| | Predictor wrote:
|>>|>| |
|>>|>| |
|>>|>| |>>nornagon wrote:
|>>|>| |>>
|>>|>| |>>>But yes, Turing machines can, by definition, do anything.
|>>|>| |>>
|>>|>| |>>
|>>|>| |>>Can a Turing machine make a bowl of soup? Can it walk a dog?
|>>|>| |
|>>|>| | Of course it can!
|>>|>| |
|>>|>| | It could make a virtual bowl of soup or walk a virtual dog inside
|>>|>| | the world it simulates.
|>>|>| |
|>>|>| | I mean, we all play Creatures games here :-D
|>>|>| |
|>>|>| |
|>>|>| |>>More importantly, can a Turing machine solve the Halting
|>>|>| |>>Problem?
|>>|>| |
|>>|>| | Nothing can solve the halting problem. For example, does a
|>>|>| | program that search for this post in Pi halt? We don't know.
|>>|>| | It's perfectly possible that this post doesn't even happen in
|>>|>| | the infinity of Pi. Or maybe it does.
|>>|>|
|>>|>| IIRC, wasn't it proven that it does?
|>>|>|
|>>|>| Better to use the original proof (paraphrased):
|>>|>|
|>>|>| Let H(p,i) be a function which takes as input the strings p and i and
|>>|>| returns a boolean value indicating whether running the program
|>>|>| represented by p with input i halts.
|>>|>|
|>>|>| Let T(s) be a program which evaluates H(s, s), and halts if H(s, s)
|>>|>| returns false.
|>>|>|
|>>|>| Since all algorithms can be represented by strings, T must have
such a
|>>|>| string. Call it t.
|>>|>|
|>>|>| What is T(t)?
|>>|>
|>>|>Now you have to proof that t>t, but I am tired :-)
|>>|>
|>>|
|>>|
|>>| t can't be greater than t. O.o
|>>|
|>>
|>>Reductio ad absurdum.
|>>(sp?)
|>>
|>>Anyway, it's not t>t, it's that T(t) is false if true, but true if
|>>false. Therein lies the contradiction, proving there is no halting
|>>algorithm.
|
|
| I remember a proof where you would make a list of all possible programs
| in an 2d array like:
|
|
| 01100101010
| 00101100101
| 11010111000
| 10011000110
|
| etc.
|
| Then you would prove there was one more 'program' on the turing machine
| by taking the first bit from T(1), the second from T(2), etc. and then
| reverse all those bits proving an additional program exists that you
| didn't count at first.

Wouldn't that prove that there are infinitely many programs, not that
you can't tell whether they halt?

| But that was years ago for me (1996). I don't really remember the
| details of what the proof was about but it seemed to me that you could
| use something that like to proof that Pi is larger than the Pi you
| calculated before.
|
| Thomas
| --
| "All my life, I've always wondered, What it would be like to fire a
| ballistic missile" - Wonderfully colored plastic war toys, The Dead
| Milkmen
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Anonymous
March 5, 2005 3:59:03 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.creatures (More info?)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

bd wrote:
> Thomas J. Boschloo wrote:
> | bd wrote:
> |
> |>>nornagon wrote:
> |>>| Thomas J. Boschloo InSaNiTised:

> |>>|>bd wrote:
> |>>|>| Vadim wrote:
> |>>|>| | Predictor wrote:
> |>>|>| |
> |>>|>| |
> |>>|>| |>>nornagon wrote:
> |>>|>| |>>
> |>>|>| |>>>But yes, Turing machines can, by definition, do anything.
> |>>|>| |>>
> |>>|>| |>>
> |>>|>| |>>Can a Turing machine make a bowl of soup? Can it walk a dog?
> |>>|>| |
> |>>|>| | Of course it can!
> |>>|>| |
> |>>|>| | It could make a virtual bowl of soup or walk a virtual dog inside
> |>>|>| | the world it simulates.
> |>>|>| |
> |>>|>| | I mean, we all play Creatures games here :-D
> |>>|>| |
> |>>|>| |
> |>>|>| |>>More importantly, can a Turing machine solve the Halting
> |>>|>| |>>Problem?
> |>>|>| |
> |>>|>| | Nothing can solve the halting problem. For example, does a
> |>>|>| | program that search for this post in Pi halt? We don't know.
> |>>|>| | It's perfectly possible that this post doesn't even happen in
> |>>|>| | the infinity of Pi. Or maybe it does.
> |>>|>|
> |>>|>| IIRC, wasn't it proven that it does?
> |>>|>|
> |>>|>| Better to use the original proof (paraphrased):
> |>>|>|
> |>>|>| Let H(p,i) be a function which takes as input the strings p and i
> and
> |>>|>| returns a boolean value indicating whether running the program
> |>>|>| represented by p with input i halts.
> |>>|>|
> |>>|>| Let T(s) be a program which evaluates H(s, s), and halts if H(s, s)
> |>>|>| returns false.
> |>>|>|
> |>>|>| Since all algorithms can be represented by strings, T must have
> such a
> |>>|>| string. Call it t.
> |>>|>|
> |>>|>| What is T(t)?
> |>>|>
> |>>|>Now you have to proof that t>t, but I am tired :-)
> |>>|>
> |>>|
> |>>|
> |>>| t can't be greater than t. O.o
> |>>|
> |>>
> |>>Reductio ad absurdum.
> |>>(sp?)
> |>>
> |>>Anyway, it's not t>t, it's that T(t) is false if true, but true if
> |>>false. Therein lies the contradiction, proving there is no halting
> |>>algorithm.
> |
> |
> | I remember a proof where you would make a list of all possible programs
> | in an 2d array like:
> |
> |
> | 01100101010
> | 00101100101
> | 11010111000
> | 10011000110
> |
> | etc.
> |
> | Then you would prove there was one more 'program' on the turing machine
> | by taking the first bit from T(1), the second from T(2), etc. and then
> | reverse all those bits proving an additional program exists that you
> | didn't count at first.
>
> Wouldn't that prove that there are infinitely many programs, not that
> you can't tell whether they halt?

Probably :-) It's been a while since I learned this (about ten years ago
I think).

<I just stapled my slippers that just tore on the side, and it hurts
when I walk on them because I stapled them the wrong way! WIP (work in
progress)>

Can't find the book though. Formal Theory of Automata I think it was
called. It was red and had a hard cover..

Thomas
- --
"All my life, I've always wondered, What it would be like to fire a
ballistic missile" - Wonderfully colored plastic war toys, The Dead
Milkmen
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