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ATI\'s Radeon X1950XTX: You Say You Want A RAM Revolution

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August 23, 2006 5:08:51 PM

Manyhave speculated that there would be few if any new card developments from either ATI or Nvidia before the release of Direct3D 10. Think again: Nvidia released Quad SLI and now ATI launches another mainstream card family that should make gamers and enthusiasts very happy.
August 23, 2006 5:29:02 PM

Pretty good so far.
August 23, 2006 5:47:02 PM

Why buy when DirectX 10 is comming ever closer? But I guess that has been discused to death already.
Related resources
August 23, 2006 5:50:43 PM

ehh
August 23, 2006 6:01:01 PM

I can't wait for R600!!!
August 23, 2006 6:42:14 PM

Why buy this card?? There will always be those with Deep pockets who must have the best of the best at any given time....
I'm waiting for DX10 cards and Crossfire/Nforce Motherboard. Core2Duo of course. Cant wait till Christmas/boxing day, its gonna be great timing, and since ill be home for winter holiday (im a univeristy student), ill actually have time to enjoy the new hardware =D. Kinda excited thinking about it. OK back on topic

The X1950XTX is what i expected it to be, a slightly faster version of the X1900XTX, I wasnt expecting it to completely surpass the 7950GX2 because it is the same Core as the x1900 after all. I like how ATI addressed the Cooler issue, Full Copper, AND quiter?? Perfect haha. I'm confident that the ATI coolers on the DX10 cards are gonna be ausome as well. I really like how the videocard blows the air out the back, makes no sense circulating hot air within the case rite? I wish the fans would use a smaller number of fins but larger ones, that should move more air and be quiter. All in all, the "new" x1950xtx is just another out of reach card for 99% of the consumers, great performance as all high end cards have but a steep price as usual.
August 23, 2006 6:46:27 PM

It seems to me, that in terms of price/performance, the only option a gamer has is the X1950XTX.

This coming from an nVidia fan boy.
August 23, 2006 6:51:48 PM

You guys are kind of missing the relevance of this launch. GDDR4 is what's so important. IMO anyways.
August 23, 2006 7:06:40 PM

Its a shame that AMD's linux drivers are so crappy, or even nonexistent for quite a few of their GPUs.

Its the reason why I'd never buy an AMD card, especially as nVidia's Linux drivers are done reasonably well.

Lets just hope with the AMD-ATI merger that they finally get a clue.
August 23, 2006 7:17:49 PM

Quote:
It seems to me, that in terms of price/performance, the only option a gamer has is the X1950XTX.

This coming from an nVidia fan boy.


Dude what are you talking about? The Geforce 7950 beats the living shit out of this thing, especially at higher resolutions, and is only $100 more.

Doom3 4xAA 8xAF 1600x1200 2048x1536
---------------------------------------------------
7950Gx2: 118.5fps 87.5fps
1950XTX: 78.3 fps 49.2fps

AMD Don't call us.

Thats not even considering the 'AMD = crappy Linux drivers' issue.
August 23, 2006 8:10:34 PM

When it comes to performance, this may be the only choice for a hardcore gamer.

I've done the numbers, and price/performance leader is a Raden X850XT PCI-E...atleast in terms of MPixels/$sec, it turns out in the low 70s, best nVidia offers in their 7950 at the mid 50s. Even crossfire X850XTs wins out, in the mid 60s...
August 23, 2006 8:32:56 PM

Quote:
Why buy this card?? There will always be those with Deep pockets who must have the best of the best at any given time....
I'm waiting for DX10 cards and Crossfire/Nforce Motherboard. Core2Duo of course. Cant wait till Christmas/boxing day, its gonna be great timing, and since ill be home for winter holiday (im a univeristy student), ill actually have time to enjoy the new hardware =D. Kinda excited thinking about it. OK back on topic

The X1950XTX is what i expected it to be, a slightly faster version of the X1900XTX, I wasnt expecting it to completely surpass the 7950GX2 because it is the same Core as the x1900 after all. I like how ATI addressed the Cooler issue, Full Copper, AND quiter?? Perfect haha. I'm confident that the ATI coolers on the DX10 cards are gonna be ausome as well. I really like how the videocard blows the air out the back, makes no sense circulating hot air within the case rite? I wish the fans would use a smaller number of fins but larger ones, that should move more air and be quiter. All in all, the "new" x1950xtx is just another out of reach card for 99% of the consumers, great performance as all high end cards have but a steep price as usual.


steep/unreachable price? man, I paid 500 bones for my xt @ the begining of this year! To me it is nice that they released it at such a reasonable price... They could have put it closer to the 7950 but instead did 450, which could be lower at certain vendors if you look hard enough. (depending on supply/demand)

quite frankly, even my card @ 500 was not unreachable for 99% of consumers. If it was then simple market dynamics would have driven it down. No, it sold just fine. If the market will not bear the cost, then the cost comes down. If it doesnt come down then someone is buying it...

finally; you can always wait for the next big thing... There is always one around the corner. If you want to wait that is fine, but you will always have a "better" one comming in a "few months". IMO you should always buy when you have the $. The only time that does not hold is if you know for certain that the better one is only a day or so away... and even then it is debatable.
August 23, 2006 9:19:13 PM

AMD or ATI technically either one is right....
August 23, 2006 10:12:13 PM

Quote:
When it comes to performance, this may be the only choice for a hardcore gamer.

I've done the numbers, and price/performance leader is a Raden X850XT PCI-E...atleast in terms of MPixels/$sec, it turns out in the low 70s, best nVidia offers in their 7950 at the mid 50s. Even crossfire X850XTs wins out, in the mid 60s...


Sweet. I've got an X850XT (although I bought it about 6 months ago). I would love to upgrade to a x1950 (if I had the money). It seems to be about the right price for the performance. IMO, DX10 is still far enough away that it is not worth waiting for (5 months+).
August 23, 2006 10:17:05 PM

Quote:
AMD or ATI technically either one is right....


no. just no. you realize the merger isn't even complete and i doubt amd will drop ati's name, but they might but right now your "technically" wrong
August 24, 2006 1:38:07 AM

http://www.megagames.com/news/html/hardware/atibrandgon...

Looks like it's going to be ATI graphics not AMD graphics. Also, agreed, high end cards are expensive but they aren't out of reach of those who really want one. Some people just don't see a need to spend 500$ on a graphics card so they don't and they call it a waste of money. All a matter of opinion.

EDIT: A good example of thi AMD/ATI graphics debate is cars... Ya, Chrysler is owned by Dodge, but would you say you own a Dodge 300? No, you would say you drive a Chrysler 300. AMD will own ATI after the merger is complete, and afterwards it will still be ATI graphics.
August 24, 2006 2:17:50 AM

:D 
Quote:
Why buy this card?? There will always be those with Deep pockets who must have the best of the best at any given time....
I'm waiting for DX10 cards and Crossfire/Nforce Motherboard. Core2Duo of course. Cant wait till Christmas/boxing day, its gonna be great timing, and since ill be home for winter holiday (im a univeristy student), ill actually have time to enjoy the new hardware =D. Kinda excited thinking about it. OK back on topic

The X1950XTX is what i expected it to be, a slightly faster version of the X1900XTX, I wasnt expecting it to completely surpass the 7950GX2 because it is the same Core as the x1900 after all. I like how ATI addressed the Cooler issue, Full Copper, AND quiter?? Perfect haha. I'm confident that the ATI coolers on the DX10 cards are gonna be ausome as well. I really like how the videocard blows the air out the back, makes no sense circulating hot air within the case rite? I wish the fans would use a smaller number of fins but larger ones, that should move more air and be quiter. All in all, the "new" x1950xtx is just another out of reach card for 99% of the consumers, great performance as all high end cards have but a steep price as usual.


steep/unreachable price? man, I paid 500 bones for my xt @ the begining of this year! To me it is nice that they released it at such a reasonable price... They could have put it closer to the 7950 but instead did 450, which could be lower at certain vendors if you look hard enough. (depending on supply/demand)

quite frankly, even my card @ 500 was not unreachable for 99% of consumers. If it was then simple market dynamics would have driven it down. No, it sold just fine. If the market will not bear the cost, then the cost comes down. If it doesnt come down then someone is buying it...

finally; you can always wait for the next big thing... There is always one around the corner. If you want to wait that is fine, but you will always have a "better" one comming in a "few months". IMO you should always buy when you have the $. The only time that does not hold is if you know for certain that the better one is only a day or so away... and even then it is debatable.

Agreed, like the article said, both of these companies are just taking baby steps waiting for the next API to be released. we can only guess when the actual DX10 card will be released & how will that hold up to current titles. But new video cards is a must once that time comes around. Its going to be a crazy holiday season. Theres always someone thats willing to buy these cards at the current price range.

The only thing I dont get is someone paying 1K for a processor. 8O Now thats alot of cheese.
August 24, 2006 2:40:29 AM

Quote:
While the technical launch is today, cards will not hit the shelves until September 14. Public relations manager Will Willis stated that "Card orders can be taken on September 23 but they won't ship until September 14." So if you want one you will have to wait but you can place your order today.

shouldnt it say august 23 not september 23...


nice article thought none the less
August 24, 2006 2:50:28 AM

Maybe because DX10 isn't coming out as soon as you think?

DX10 might be announced this year but you won't see dx10 cards for awhile. Seeing how it'll be only compatible with windows Vista and dx10. You can't get a DX10 binary redistribution for any other windows besides Vista. You can't pop in a DX10 card using DX9. The drivers will require dx10 installed. You need windows vista to install dx10.

DX10 cards will also most likely require PCI-E 2.0 and will cost 500-800 dollars.

Never wait for technology!

Quote:
Why buy when DirectX 10 is comming ever closer? But I guess that has been discused to death already.
August 24, 2006 3:16:35 AM

Where are u getting all that info from ?

I highly doubt DX10 will require new PCI-E revision. As for cost no point even talking about that.

And from what I've heard the R600 will be both DX 9 and DX10. You are correct u will need vista for DX10. But why won't u be able to run this card on windows XP in DX9 mode which it will support.
August 24, 2006 3:35:40 AM

Quote:
You can't pop in a DX10 card using DX9.


Ever heard of backwards compatibility? :idea:

Quote:
DX10 cards will also most likely require PCI-E 2.0 and will cost 500-800 dollars.


Do a favor to the mankind and stop smoking whatever you are smoking.
PCI-E 2.0? 8O
There is no graphic card in existence that would be able to stress the actual PCI-E 16x architectural capabilities (only in terms of wattage, but that's why the 6-pin PCI-E Power Connector exists).
PCI-E """"2.0""""? 8O 8O

Quote:
Never wait for technology!


Finally, some spark of intelligence. :wink:
August 24, 2006 3:39:47 AM

Quote:
It seems to me, that in terms of price/performance, the only option a gamer has is the X1950XTX.


Of course there are other options! (but you must be very stupid to choose any of them). 8)

Quote:
This coming from an nVidia fan boy.


My soul hurts too... :cry:  :roll:
August 24, 2006 3:52:55 AM

PCI-E 2.0!?! I HATE people who give false facts like that. STOP LYING!!! people actually come here to get information...
August 24, 2006 4:02:40 AM

Quote:
now ATI launches another mainstream card family that should make gamers and enthusiasts very happy.


Not as happy as I'll be when prices on this puppy get down to about $300. Nice cooler - wish they sold it separately to fit my 1900XT...
August 24, 2006 4:09:33 AM

Quote:
Why buy this card?? There will always be those with Deep pockets who must have the best of the best at any given time....
I'm waiting for DX10 cards and Crossfire/Nforce Motherboard. Core2Duo of course. Cant wait till Christmas/boxing day, its gonna be great timing, and since ill be home for winter holiday (im a univeristy student), ill actually have time to enjoy the new hardware =D. Kinda excited thinking about it. OK back on topic

The X1950XTX is what i expected it to be, a slightly faster version of the X1900XTX, I wasnt expecting it to completely surpass the 7950GX2 because it is the same Core as the x1900 after all. I like how ATI addressed the Cooler issue, Full Copper, AND quiter?? Perfect haha. I'm confident that the ATI coolers on the DX10 cards are gonna be ausome as well. I really like how the videocard blows the air out the back, makes no sense circulating hot air within the case rite? I wish the fans would use a smaller number of fins but larger ones, that should move more air and be quiter. All in all, the "new" x1950xtx is just another out of reach card for 99% of the consumers, great performance as all high end cards have but a steep price as usual.


steep/unreachable price? man, I paid 500 bones for my xt @ the begining of this year! To me it is nice that they released it at such a reasonable price... They could have put it closer to the 7950 but instead did 450, which could be lower at certain vendors if you look hard enough. (depending on supply/demand)

quite frankly, even my card @ 500 was not unreachable for 99% of consumers. If it was then simple market dynamics would have driven it down. No, it sold just fine. If the market will not bear the cost, then the cost comes down. If it doesnt come down then someone is buying it...

finally; you can always wait for the next big thing... There is always one around the corner. If you want to wait that is fine, but you will always have a "better" one comming in a "few months". IMO you should always buy when you have the $. The only time that does not hold is if you know for certain that the better one is only a day or so away... and even then it is debatable.

OK, so 99% is prolly a little exaggerated, maybe 75-85%, hmm, we should ahve a tally. And out of reach wasnt the best choice of words, I COULD go out and get one rite now, I have the disposable income, but i rather spend it on something else, or wait for Dx10 cards because im content w/ my current setup. This card was ATIs attack at the 7950gx2 as well as to try out Gddr4 and a better cooler i think, but then again, who really knows? I think itz great their trying out new stuff, it'll only be better when i get my X2800XTX(assuming thats what itz called)
August 24, 2006 7:55:03 AM

Quote:
DX10 cards will also most likely require PCI-E 2.0 and will cost 500-800 dollars.


PCIE 2??? Source(s) please.

I find it very hard to believe that Vista will require all users to go out and buy a new motherboard (with a technology that nobody has even heard of but you) and then the graphics companies will only make $500+ cards that support it. I understand that you won't require dx10 to run vista, but I don't think that they are going to make it nearly unattainable for the vast majority of users. Also, why would gfx card companies only make $500+ dx10 cards? Why not midrange cards that work with it as well? Just because the cards will support dx10 doesn't mean that they will have to run with GDDR4 memory at 2.4GHz with core speeds of 1.5GHz. Think about the x1600 -now x1300- series of processors that supports much of the latest shader technology whereas my vastly faster x850xt does not and is quite a bit more expensive.
August 24, 2006 10:24:56 AM

O man that new Arctic cooling cooler is the best
August 24, 2006 12:05:43 PM

I was waiting for X1950XTX because I hoped it would perform better than X1900XTX in outdoor environments in Oblivion at 1280x1024. It turns out that X1950XTX performs worse than X1900XTX (26.22 FPS vs 28.07). :(  Somehow this is very strange because X1950XTX has faster memory and the cards are otherwise identical. :?:
August 24, 2006 12:28:57 PM

Open your little, strechted mind.

Based on ONE benchmark, of ONE game, at ONE specific resolution, in ONE specific instance... You have to look at the big picture.
August 24, 2006 12:40:51 PM

Yeah, but what if you are looking for a new video card and you have a 19" LCD with native resolution 1280x1024, Oblivion is the only game you'll play for a long time, and you want the most demanding outdoor settings to run as smoothly as possible with HDR + 6xQuality FSAA + 16XAni? :twisted: I guess Tomshardware did the testing in a hurry and didn't try to calculate the average FPS over a longer period of time. It's hard to believe that X1900XTX would be 2 FPS faster than X1950 XTX, unless in some specific instance for a second or two and perhaps for some CPU or hard-drive related reason.
August 24, 2006 1:08:02 PM

Anyone else see something a bit odd about the HL2 benchies on page 8?

http://www.tomshardware.com/2006/08/23/ati_radeon_x1950...

Just a couple of things I see right off the bat..

At 1280x1024 4xAA, 8xAF:

7600gt and 7900gt perform almost identically (<1fps difference)
7800gt performs ~25% faster than 7900gt
7900gtx performs only 5% faster than 7800gt

Anyone?
August 24, 2006 1:34:28 PM

Quote:
Anyone else see something a bit odd about the HL2 benchies on page 8?

http://www.tomshardware.com/2006/08/23/ati_radeon_x1950...

Just a couple of things I see right off the bat..

At 1280x1024 4xAA, 8xAF:

7600gt and 7900gt perform almost identically (<1fps difference)
7800gt performs ~25% faster than 7900gt
7900gtx performs only 5% faster than 7800gt

Anyone?



That's even more weird than the results on Oblivion.

I just found a much better review of X1950XTX vs X1900XTX in Oblivion at this site. 8)
August 24, 2006 5:08:08 PM

Here we go again....

Listen, maybe you can finally get this straight: Oblivion isn't the only game in the universe.

Prey? HL2? FEAR?
Come on, there's a lot more of other fantastic games you could play.
So why would you judge a graphics card just by one game?
August 24, 2006 5:55:36 PM

On a related topic, it seems to me that another statistic/benchmark is needed for comparison between Graphics cards (and CPUs, too) - What about min/max Wattage? Sure, we need to compare gross performance, the total work done by the component, but what about the amount of stress put on our cooling and power-supply, to produce such numbers?

In many other aspects of computer performance, power usage is becoming an issue. If for no other reason, a user needs to know if installing that new GPU card is going to mean that he Also needs a new power-supply.

Be Well!
Fireheart
August 24, 2006 6:11:18 PM

Quote:
It seems to me, that in terms of price/performance, the only option a gamer has is the X1950XTX.

This coming from an nVidia fan boy.


Err, 7900GT or a 1900XT both kick the 1950XTX's ass for price/performance.

Quote:
You guys are kind of missing the relevance of this launch. GDDR4 is what's so important. IMO anyways.


Well, it's nice to see technology improving I guess, but as far as I can see it doesn't seem to have changed much. Sure, memory bandwidth is up, but real world performance seems to average about 10% higher than comaprable GDDR3 cards. Not exactly stats to write home about.

I.e., I think unified shaders will be important, but not just because somebody's invented the things. They're important because they should bring about some large gains in quality and performance. I don't believe in new tech just for tech's and PR's sake.

Synergy6
August 24, 2006 7:36:27 PM

Quote:
Here we go again....

Listen, maybe you can finally get this straight: Oblivion isn't the only game in the universe.

Prey? HL2? FEAR?
Come on, there's a lot more of other fantastic games you could play.
So why would you judge a graphics card just by one game?


Why does this matter so much to you? If Oblivion is the game he wants to play, what's it to you? Saying that a card is crap in general because of its performance in one game would be quite silly to say, but if you're looking for a particular game to run faster, and were holding off in hopes that a new card would help that, then clearly that will impact whether the card is good for you.

I agree that, for most people, the general performance level should be more important than the specific level, but some people have different priorities and interests.
August 24, 2006 10:31:57 PM

I'm trying to make him more objective.

Like you said (so clearly stated): "The general performance level should be more important than the specific level".

That's my point.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough before. My bad.
August 25, 2006 10:09:47 AM

Pritty good stuff. GDDR4 sounds like a really good step up.

I just bought myself a 7900GT and then they release the X1900XT 256. Damn O well. Doesnt matter.
August 26, 2006 3:33:19 PM

I noticed that THG did not list 100% load power draw specifications on page 4 of the article. I am guessing this is because ATI did not provide this data. When will ATI start? Do THG readers care?

This is offtopic, but where is the place on the forums to discuss THG price/performance charts?
August 28, 2006 1:29:58 AM

C'mon, Stranger. You, of all people (judging by your posts), should know that there are about as many, if not more, people on these here boards that are content on spreading misinformation, whether it be based on lack of knowledge, stupidity, or ill intent, than the knowledgeable ones.

One thing he is right about, though. I, too, think there might be further delays with the release of DX 10, and for this reason DX 10 cards. Although nVidia and ATI are definitely more diligent in fulfilling their promises than the certain third yet primary party involved in its release. Albeit not for the want of PCIE 2 or any such thing.
August 28, 2006 2:22:49 AM

Quote:
DX10 cards will also most likely require PCI-E 2.0 and will cost 500-800 dollars.


PCIE 2??? Source(s) please.

I find it very hard to believe that Vista will require all users to go out and buy a new motherboard (with a technology that nobody has even heard of but you) and then the graphics companies will only make $500+ cards that support it.

Much as I cant see PCI-E 2 cards before vista, we ARE talking about Microsoft, the company that suddenly upped the required RAM for a computer from 4mb to 8mb on the release of Win95 when *everyone* had 4mb, and that are already requiring everyone to purchase a DRM compliant monitor for Vista if they wish to watch high-def content. - And that means almost NONE of the currently availible models (HDCP is required)
August 28, 2006 3:06:40 AM

Quote:

Much as I cant see PCI-E 2 cards before vista, we ARE talking about Microsoft, the company that suddenly upped the required RAM for a computer from 4mb to 8mb on the release of Win95 when *everyone* had 4mb, and that are already requiring everyone to purchase a DRM compliant monitor for Vista if they wish to watch high-def content. - And that means almost NONE of the currently availible models (HDCP is required)


Is that monitor requirement official? I thought they backed off of that ridiculous idea.
August 28, 2006 1:50:40 PM

The dude is right. PCI-e 2.0 does exsist and will be required for anyone who wants to use any dx10 graphics cards.

Here are the specs
The slot is a 50x pci-e slot that is twice as long so you can fit 2 cards back to back, like crossfire...
The slot supplies 450watt to the gfx card.
Its black.

And it supports gddr4 memory transfer sharing to the CPU.

Here is my reference http://forumz.tomshardware.com/hardware/ATI-Radeon-X1950XTX-RAM-Revolutionftopic-197441-days0-orderasc-25.html
August 28, 2006 2:45:35 PM

Yes its correct. It realy doesnt matter because because of all the digital rights managemet stuff going on, you will have to upgrade your monitor to play these games in HD (dx10).

So new mobo, video card, monitor all required to play dx10 games. LOL and for most people a new powersupply because of the 450watt per lane on the 50x bus.

The good news is that since Microsoft vista (required also for dx10 support) will be about $400 bucks to start, but it will come bundled with a free DRM CRT monitor and a 2kw power supply. There have been hints that a rebate for a dx10 card and mobo will be included too.

Then again, like xbox360 games, dx10 game production costs will be much higher, and the games will sell at around 59.99 -> 89.99 per title. This suggests the budget gang will be increased from 19.99 to 39.99.


again... to prove beyond a doubt im serious and not joking... here is my source: http://forumz.tomshardware.com/hardware/ATI-Radeon-X1950XTX-RAM-Revolutionftopic-197441-days0-orderasc-25.html
August 28, 2006 2:57:05 PM

naw man, that pci-e 2.0 spec is still in draft afaik. It will be a while before it is even ratified and probably be out another year or so. (maybe...) You will be fine for dx10 for a while yet. no worries.

Don't go to the dark side man. Do not give in to the fear. Fear leads to anger...anger leads to hate... hate leads to suffering... ;) 
August 28, 2006 2:59:28 PM

Stranger,
This topic must have 50 active threads. Ya I was being sarcastic, which is why I posted it that way, and quoted this thread as my only source of information. Clearly it was not to be taken as information, but as banter considering what is being talked about here.



If anyone thinks that my source is valid and therefore makes it a serious post... erm sorry?


If you want fact facts cause you didnt get it:
dx10 cards will fit in current 8x /16x pci-e slots. No other special requirements needed. Cost of games will most likely not increase. you will not need a new monitor to play them. You will not need a 2kw power supply to power your video card. budget titles will probably stay the same price. You will need windows Vista to run dx10. dx10 will be comming out next year. card prices will not be more expencive, just expencive for new cards. Your computer should be vista compatible if its newish.
August 28, 2006 2:59:38 PM

Quote:
naw man, that pci-e 2.0 spec is still in draft afaik. It will be a while before it is even ratified and probably be out another year or so. (maybe...) You will be fine for dx10 for a while yet. no worries.

Don't go to the dark side man. Do not give in to the fear. Fear leads to anger...anger leads to hate... hate leads to suffering... ;) 


True, but suffering leads to Nirvanna...
August 28, 2006 3:05:49 PM

Yes. PCI-e 2.0 is a non-issue.
if you want to know all about PCIe 2.0 then look at this link. http://64.233.187.104/search?q=cache:ElfrnU4umS8J:D ownload.microsoft.com/download/5/b/9/5b97017b-e28a-4bae-ba48-174cf47d23cd/CPA069_WH06.ppt+pci-e+2.0&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1

there is no need for a faster slot then 16x.

However, you wil need to buy a dx10 controler JITS chip to fit into your pcie 2x slot. Its the only way to bypass the memory control overide that vista is forcing.

(no not realy)
August 28, 2006 3:06:53 PM

yup, work fine.

I only just got the joke from comptia_rep... so don't worry if you missed it too. ;) 

He was being very sarcastic aparently. sarcasm is hard to put accross on a forum. I thought he was just a tool... now I think he is still a tool, but one w/ a sense of humor. lol
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