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GSM and AMPS/Analog?

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Anonymous
November 8, 2004 8:38:56 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.cingular (More info?)

Now that Cingular is going GSM, does the network (and respective
phones) provide for AMPS/Analog fallback capability? In the event of
an emergency where/when digital coverage cannot be obtained, analog
fallback can be critical.

I believe, under TDMA, they had AMPS/Analog, but when that is
disabled, along with the ATTWS takeover, with ATTWS digital-only, how
will the new infrastructure look?
GSM-only, or GSM with Analog?

Thanks.

Scott

More about : gsm amps analog

November 8, 2004 12:47:53 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.cingular (More info?)

On 8 Nov 2004 05:38:56 -0800, scott@ehrlichtronics.com (Scott Ehrlich)
wrote:

>Now that Cingular is going GSM, does the network (and respective
>phones) provide for AMPS/Analog fallback capability? In the event of
>an emergency where/when digital coverage cannot be obtained, analog
>fallback can be critical.
>
>I believe, under TDMA, they had AMPS/Analog, but when that is
>disabled, along with the ATTWS takeover, with ATTWS digital-only, how
>will the new infrastructure look?
>GSM-only, or GSM with Analog?

They're not likely to dissassemble it all. They probably won't be
adding to TDMA or AMPS but there will still be some there for some
time. As far as GSM falling back on AMPS the only handsets that will
do that are the GAIT handsets of which I believe there are very few
models Nokia 6340i and Ericsson T62U.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Anonymous
November 8, 2004 2:31:17 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.cingular,alt.cellular.attws (More info?)

"Scott Ehrlich" <scott@ehrlichtronics.com> wrote in message
news:8c8a703f.0411080538.523e70d4@posting.google.com...
> Now that Cingular is going GSM, does the network (and respective
> phones) provide for AMPS/Analog fallback capability? In the event of
> an emergency where/when digital coverage cannot be obtained, analog
> fallback can be critical.
>
> I believe, under TDMA, they had AMPS/Analog, but when that is
> disabled, along with the ATTWS takeover, with ATTWS digital-only, how
> will the new infrastructure look?
> GSM-only, or GSM with Analog?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Scott

I've not heard of any plans for a Cingular GSM/Analog phone in the future.
However, you can now get a GAIT phone (Nokia 6340i or SE T62u) activated on
the new GSM National plans, with coverage on TDMA and/or Analog anywhere the
old GAIT national plans used to cover. (I just did this myself through
Cingular Customer Service) You can then use the GAIT phone when you need
Analog/TDMA, and switch the GAIT SIM card into the much nicer GSM-only
phones when you have a strong/steady GSM signal.

I've heard that the GAIT SIM card is different from the GSM-only SIM card,
but I've not been able to confirm. Anyone know if this is true?
Related resources
Anonymous
November 8, 2004 6:05:53 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.cingular (More info?)

In article <8c8a703f.0411080538.523e70d4@posting.google.com>,
scott@ehrlichtronics.com (Scott Ehrlich) wrote:

> Now that Cingular is going GSM, does the network (and respective
> phones) provide for AMPS/Analog fallback capability? In the event of
> an emergency where/when digital coverage cannot be obtained, analog
> fallback can be critical.
>
> I believe, under TDMA, they had AMPS/Analog, but when that is
> disabled, along with the ATTWS takeover, with ATTWS digital-only, how
> will the new infrastructure look?
> GSM-only, or GSM with Analog?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Scott

Both TDMA and analog are going away, although you can get a major
argument started by predicting when.
Anonymous
November 8, 2004 7:05:44 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.cingular (More info?)

In article <8c8a703f.0411080538.523e70d4@posting.google.com>,
scott@ehrlichtronics.com says...
> Now that Cingular is going GSM, does the network (and respective
> phones) provide for AMPS/Analog fallback capability? In the event of
> an emergency where/when digital coverage cannot be obtained, analog
> fallback can be critical.
>
> I believe, under TDMA, they had AMPS/Analog, but when that is
> disabled, along with the ATTWS takeover, with ATTWS digital-only, how
> will the new infrastructure look?
> GSM-only, or GSM with Analog?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Scott
>

Network--yes, Reality--no. There are no GSM+AMPS phones made. There
used to be one that took an AMPS "slice" behind the battery but believe
that is gone too. Also, there are reports that Cingular will not
activate an old AMPS-only phone on a new GSM-only plan--guess that's one
way to make sure nobody is using AMPS by the 2007 sunset.

RANT-MODE-ON! Cingular and ATTWS seem to think they're the only
carriers involved and that when their conversion is done the country is
done. The truth is that LOTS if not most of their TDMA/AMPS roaming
partners HAVE NOT converted and may not even have started. A GSM-only
phone is a paperweight in large areas of rural and small-town USA.

And it was so unnecessary--all they had to do was continue offering the
GAIT phones & plans a year or so longer. Maybe order some more GAIT
models or at the very least order some GSM+AMPS phones.

By the way, nobody has said that TDMA is going to be "disabled" all at
once. Since it's not covered in the 2007 regulation keeping it running
is optional. If the TDMA cards are taking up slots needed for GSM cards
then some towers may loose it before others. Or is TDMA and GSM on the
same card--anyone? If it's the same card then TDMA may stick around for
many years.

It would make sense for them to keep TDMA/AMPS at minimal levels for
users of other TDMA/AMPS carriers to roam into the cities--until
EVERYBODY is converted--but they haven't used any sense yet when it
comes to the GSM conversion so why start now :-)
--
Jud
Dallas TX USA
Anonymous
November 8, 2004 9:23:09 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.cingular,alt.cellular.attws (More info?)

> However, you can now get a GAIT phone (Nokia 6340i or SE T62u) activated
> on the new GSM National plans, with coverage on TDMA and/or Analog
> anywhere the old GAIT national plans used to cover.

The SIM card for a multiband plan includes the TDMA setup information.
Simply placing a normal GSM-only SIM into a multiband phone will only work
in GSM mode. At least this is the case for my unlocked Cingular Nokia
6340i.

Anyway, yes, if it's possible to get the multiband SIM for use on the GSM
nation plan, that does sound like a killer deal, especially if roaming on
TDMA/analog
is included. This did not used to be the case, at least in my area.

-Dan

--
Eugene, Oregon -- Pacific Northwest
http://cell.uoregon.edu
November 9, 2004 2:00:36 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.cingular (More info?)

Jud Hardcastle wrote:

[....]

> By the way, nobody has said that TDMA is going to be "disabled" all at
> once. Since it's not covered in the 2007 regulation keeping it running
> is optional. If the TDMA cards are taking up slots needed for GSM cards
> then some towers may loose it before others. Or is TDMA and GSM on the
> same card--anyone? If it's the same card then TDMA may stick around for
> many years.
>

In Cingular's case, most TDMA/Analog networks being converted to GSM are
accomplishing this by adding GSM radio frames. They turn off TDMA
radios and turn on GSM radios and modify their FCC license filings
accordingly. Oftentimes, the TDMA and GSM radio frames are two
different brands, so card sharing is impossible. Cingular has already
stripped their urban analog capacity to a bare-bones level, and
thankfully GM's Onstar client service is finally headed for GSM (other
package tracking systems are getting similar treatment).

I've been told a lot of the rural analog providers (read: technophobes)
depend on analog roamer fees as their primary revenue source, but with
the aggressive GSM pressures from major providers (GSM-only phones),
their revenue streams may dry up sooner than they think. Which means
they'll fold, their analog networks will show up on eBay, someone will
buy the lot, convert it to GSM, analog phones will be SOL, and GSM
people will finally have rural coverage.

IMO, I expect analog to outlive TDMA, but only because of the 2007
statutory requirement.


[....]


--
jer email reply - I am not a 'ten'
Anonymous
November 9, 2004 2:48:50 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.cingular,alt.cellular.attws (More info?)

In article <wbydnbZQaufBAhLcRVn-sQ@lighthouse.net>,
scottmcconkey@hotmail.com says...
> However, you can now get a GAIT phone (Nokia 6340i or SE T62u) activated on
> the new GSM National plans, with coverage on TDMA and/or Analog anywhere the
> old GAIT national plans used to cover. (I just did this myself through
> Cingular Customer Service) You can then use the GAIT phone when you need
> Analog/TDMA, and switch the GAIT SIM card into the much nicer GSM-only
> phones when you have a strong/steady GSM signal.
>

Well that's something anyway. I knew several people had managed to get
a GAIT phone activated on a normal GSM acct unofficially although the
phone seems to behave a little differently roaming rules wise. Wonder
if they're going to let you roam free (which would effectively be the
same as the old GAIT plan) or will there be some extra roaming charges
if you go off the GSM system? Anyway--at least an option if I ever want
a GPRS/Edge phone.
--
Jud
Dallas TX USA
Anonymous
November 9, 2004 6:41:36 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.cingular,alt.cellular.attws (More info?)

"Dan Albrich" <junkmail@shaney.uoregon.edui> wrote in message
news:9-idndTRzvSUtw3cRVn-sQ@comcast.com...
>> However, you can now get a GAIT phone (Nokia 6340i or SE T62u) activated
>> on the new GSM National plans, with coverage on TDMA and/or Analog
>> anywhere the old GAIT national plans used to cover.
>
> The SIM card for a multiband plan includes the TDMA setup information.
> Simply placing a normal GSM-only SIM into a multiband phone will only work
> in GSM mode. At least this is the case for my unlocked Cingular Nokia
> 6340i.
>
> Anyway, yes, if it's possible to get the multiband SIM for use on the GSM
> nation plan, that does sound like a killer deal, especially if roaming on
> TDMA/analog
> is included. This did not used to be the case, at least in my area.
>
> -Dan
>
> --
> Eugene, Oregon -- Pacific Northwest
> http://cell.uoregon.edu
>
>
>
>
>

Today I switched from my GAIT plan to the "limited time" Nations 1000
w/rollover plan. The CSR assured me my GAIT phone would continue to operate
as is has. I'll report any variance to the group after the change goes into
effect in late November.
Anonymous
November 9, 2004 11:32:06 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.cingular,alt.cellular.attws (More info?)

> Today I switched from my GAIT plan to the "limited time" Nations 1000
> w/rollover plan. The CSR assured me my GAIT phone would continue to
> operate as is has. I'll report any variance to the group after the change
> goes into effect in late November.

Sounds like an excellent deal to me. Do let us know if anything
comes up that's unexpected.

Thanks Bob,

-Dan

--
Eugene, Oregon -- Pacific Northwest
http://cell.uoregon.edu
November 9, 2004 3:49:24 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.cingular (More info?)

On Mon, 08 Nov 2004 15:05:53 GMT, Jack Zwick <jzwick3@mindspring.com>
wrote:

>In article <8c8a703f.0411080538.523e70d4@posting.google.com>,
> scott@ehrlichtronics.com (Scott Ehrlich) wrote:
>
>> Now that Cingular is going GSM, does the network (and respective
>> phones) provide for AMPS/Analog fallback capability? In the event of
>> an emergency where/when digital coverage cannot be obtained, analog
>> fallback can be critical.
>>
>> I believe, under TDMA, they had AMPS/Analog, but when that is
>> disabled, along with the ATTWS takeover, with ATTWS digital-only, how
>> will the new infrastructure look?
>> GSM-only, or GSM with Analog?
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> Scott
>
>Both TDMA and analog are going away, although you can get a major
>argument started by predicting when.

So isn't the dial telephone.

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November 9, 2004 3:52:20 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.cingular (More info?)

On Mon, 08 Nov 2004 16:05:44 GMT, Jud Hardcastle
<l5i5changethistodash5rbo@xemaps.removethis.com> wrote:

>Network--yes, Reality--no. There are no GSM+AMPS phones made. There
>used to be one that took an AMPS "slice" behind the battery but believe
>that is gone too.

True GAIT phones have GSM, TDMA and AMPS. There are at least two
models that do this besides the module you are referring to for the
old 51XX/61XX/71XX series Nokia phones.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Anonymous
November 9, 2004 9:06:05 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.cingular (More info?)

Joseph wrote:
> On Mon, 08 Nov 2004 16:05:44 GMT, Jud Hardcastle
> <l5i5changethistodash5rbo@xemaps.removethis.com> wrote:
>
>> Network--yes, Reality--no. There are no GSM+AMPS phones made. There
>> used to be one that took an AMPS "slice" behind the battery but
>> believe that is gone too.
>
> True GAIT phones have GSM, TDMA and AMPS. There are at least two
> models that do this besides the module you are referring to for the
> old 51XX/61XX/71XX series Nokia phones.

The Nokia NRM-1 -- I have one that I've never used.

John C.
Anonymous
November 11, 2004 1:27:45 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.cingular (More info?)

>They turn off TDMA
>radios and turn on GSM radios and modify their FCC license filings
>accordingly.

There are no FCC filings necessary. They hold the lisences for the areas that
they cover and do not have to provide anything more to the FCC.

> Oftentimes, the TDMA and GSM radio frames are two
>different brands, so card sharing is impossible.

This is true however.



--
John S.
e-mail responses to - john at kiana dot net
Anonymous
November 11, 2004 5:21:22 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.cingular (More info?)

In article <cmpish$1r8@library2.airnews.net>, gdunn@airmail.ten says...
>
> I've been told a lot of the rural analog providers (read: technophobes)
> depend on analog roamer fees as their primary revenue source, but with
> the aggressive GSM pressures from major providers (GSM-only phones),
> their revenue streams may dry up sooner than they think. Which means
> they'll fold, their analog networks will show up on eBay, someone will
> buy the lot, convert it to GSM, analog phones will be SOL, and GSM
> people will finally have rural coverage.
>

From "analog roamer" fees or just from roamer fees in general? Are
there different roamer fees for analog versus digital? I haven't
detected my GAIT phone on analog in rural areas for a very long time,
not even 15-20 miles from a town. TDMA is pretty well saturated at
least in Texas. The few times I loose TDMA the entire signal is gone
due to a valley. If the rural carriers are getting a lot of revenue
from "analog" roamers versus digital roamers then it's probably from
Verizon users not Cingular.

When/if the rural carriers drop AMPS at the 2007 sunset Verizon is going
to loose their entire backup coverage. That's going to make a
significant drop in their published coverage--there's almost no CDMA
here once you leave the big cities. Are they going to offer CDMA/GSM
phones to US customers so users can roam on GSM-only carriers?

--
Jud
Dallas TX USA
Anonymous
November 11, 2004 6:38:20 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.cingular (More info?)

[POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]

In <MPG.1bfd30e13ee41254989807@news.dallas.sbcglobal.net> on Thu, 11 Nov 2004
14:21:22 GMT, Jud Hardcastle <l5i5changethistodash5rbo@xemaps.removethis.com>
wrote:

>When/if the rural carriers drop AMPS at the 2007 sunset Verizon is going
>to loose their entire backup coverage. That's going to make a
>significant drop in their published coverage--there's almost no CDMA
>here once you leave the big cities. Are they going to offer CDMA/GSM
>phones to US customers so users can roam on GSM-only carriers?

That's an important point that most pundits seem to be missing.

--
Best regards, HELP FOR CINGULAR GSM & SONY ERICSSON PHONES:
John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular&gt;
Anonymous
November 12, 2004 7:38:16 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.cingular (More info?)

On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 14:21:22 GMT, Jud Hardcastle
<l5i5changethistodash5rbo@xemaps.removethis.com> said in
alt.cellular.cingular:

>When/if the rural carriers drop AMPS at the 2007 sunset Verizon is going
>to loose their entire backup coverage. That's going to make a
>significant drop in their published coverage

They already have a significant drop from published coverage in the 22
system (NY Metro). They're oversold again. It's so bad this time
that I'm biting the bullet and paying them the $350 to terminate both
of my lines.
November 13, 2004 12:57:44 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.cingular (More info?)

OnStar is heading to CDMA and Verizon, not GSM:
http://www.vzwshop.com/onstar/

"Jer" <gdunn@airmail.ten> wrote in message
news:cmpish$1r8@library2.airnews.net...
>
> In Cingular's case, most TDMA/Analog networks being converted to GSM are
> accomplishing this by adding GSM radio frames. They turn off TDMA radios
> and turn on GSM radios and modify their FCC license filings accordingly.
> Oftentimes, the TDMA and GSM radio frames are two different brands, so
> card sharing is impossible. Cingular has already stripped their urban
> analog capacity to a bare-bones level, and thankfully GM's Onstar client
> service is finally headed for GSM (other package tracking systems are
> getting similar treatment).
>
November 13, 2004 2:51:29 PM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.cingular (More info?)

Randy wrote:

> OnStar is heading to CDMA and Verizon, not GSM:
> http://www.vzwshop.com/onstar/

I apologise for my own confusion. What I heard was OnStar (among other
users) was moving to digital, and I mistakingly confused that with
GSM/GPRS, because that same conversation also included FedEx plans
converting to GSM/GPRS. My bad.


>
> "Jer" <gdunn@airmail.ten> wrote in message
> news:cmpish$1r8@library2.airnews.net...
>
>>In Cingular's case, most TDMA/Analog networks being converted to GSM are
>>accomplishing this by adding GSM radio frames. They turn off TDMA radios
>>and turn on GSM radios and modify their FCC license filings accordingly.
>>Oftentimes, the TDMA and GSM radio frames are two different brands, so
>>card sharing is impossible. Cingular has already stripped their urban
>>analog capacity to a bare-bones level, and thankfully GM's Onstar client
>>service is finally headed for GSM (other package tracking systems are
>>getting similar treatment).
>>



--
jer email reply - I am not a 'ten'
I'm Jer and I approved this message.
Anonymous
November 17, 2004 2:19:51 AM

Archived from groups: alt.cellular.cingular (More info?)

In article <-YmdneGC5_BuswvcRVn-iA@comcast.com>, "Randy" <@> says...
> OnStar is heading to CDMA and Verizon, not GSM:
> http://www.vzwshop.com/onstar/
>
>
>
Actually I don't see anything there that's talking about the future just
about the current systems and combined billing.

CDMA has even LESS digital coverage in rural and small town America than
current GSM. At least with GSM most of the small carriers that cover
rural and under 20k towns will EVENTUALLY convert from TDMA to GSM which
will expand GSM coverage back to approximately 100% coverage where AMPS
is now. That's not going to happen with CDMA. If Onstar goes to CDMA
they're going to loose even more renewals than their abysmal record now.
Stupid move but with an existing Verizon deal they may do just that.
--
Jud
Dallas TX USA
!