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water cooling idea for max OC

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August 26, 2006 9:10:52 PM

What would be the best for water cooling CPU + VC + MEM? And possibly more.

My idea was small radiator to CPU to small radiator to VC to small radiator to MEM back to first small radiator. The reason for this is so the water is continually cooled, rather then being dumped on the MEM after the CPU and VC has heated it. I realize that this system would be insanely complex to rig up.

The other idea I had was to use a large radiator with a super fast 500-L/H pump. This way the water is flowing so fast that it should be still fairly cool by the time it reaches the MEM.

I also have a crazy idea for using flexible copper tubing with rigged heatseeks on it.

Opinions, ideas?

More about : water cooling idea max

August 26, 2006 10:05:26 PM

I have seen the heatsinks on the tubing idea before. The modders log showed that it didnt work as well as he had hoped. Even with the extra surface area, it still wasnt enough to help at all. Though I still think it is a legitimate idea that could be excellent if executed with some planning and creativity.

For the water loop I would personall go: Res, pump, CPU block, single 120mm rad, VGA block, mem (if you really want to liquid cool the memory), Dual 120mm rad, back to res.
August 26, 2006 10:21:42 PM

First off, I must say that water cooling your ram is just overkill, ram doesn't give off much heat. Water cooling your northbridge can also be called overkill as well, depending on who you are. Some people say that cooling your nb is quite alright, and almost a neccesity, and some people say it's just stupid, I'm the second guy. If you just get a good nb cooler, then you're fine, especially if you've got an AMD, where the northbridge doesn't get smokey hot.

Now as for your small radiator thing, It could be a good idea if you could pull it off without it being a nightmare in a case. I have an antec P180B case, and I found that it is possible to put a radiator in the bottom of the case, where the bottom drive cage is, if you take it out. Right there, there is a large fan and that bottom part is almost completely blocked off from the rest of the case, there are holes for putting your cables through which you can close off almost completely so you get near perfect isolation. If you had the water going from the cpu, to a cooler down there, and then back up to the vga and then down to another cooler behind the cpu cooler, then that could work, although it would make your computer a lot heavier and all that jazz. I have no idea if it would actually cool your computer that much more than just having one large radiator, but it could work.

As for the super fast pump, don't quote me on this, but I remember something about if your pump has too high a flow rate, the water wont take as much heat from the cpu and vga, as well as it would be going through the radiator so quickly that it couldn't get the heat out fast enough. I may be wrong but I may be right as well.

As for the flexible copper tubing, that wouldn't work very well. Not just the fact that copper doesn't like to bend very well, so you'd have to pre bend everything and then it'd all be stiff, but it wouldn't do much in the way of getting heat out of the system, actually being worse, since it lets whatever bit of heat off right in your computer, instead of going through your rad which hopefully is not in your case or pointing out of your case.

Anyhoo, that's all I have to say right now. laters
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August 27, 2006 3:41:17 AM

Quote:
As for the super fast pump, don't quote me on this, but I remember something about if your pump has too high a flow rate, the water wont take as much heat from the cpu and vga, as well as it would be going through the radiator so quickly that it couldn't get the heat out fast enough. I may be wrong but I may be right as well.
Yes, this is true. If you use multiple rads, it'll add more resistance, and you're going to need a more powerful pump to circulate the water...and more powerful pumps can dissipate more heat into the coolant. :wink:
August 27, 2006 4:12:47 AM

He told you not to quote him, but there could be truth to that. My understanding is though it picks up less heat and dropes off less, just like scalling, resulting in the same preformance. Several radiators in paralell would counter that(I think).
August 27, 2006 4:49:04 AM

One Rad (at least having dual 120mm fans). Split your line just after the pump, then connect them just before the rad. Its rather effective and worked very well with my setup.

Pump's dont put out enough to worry any sane person....

A little AS5 and the fan speed increased on the chipset is all that needs.
If you want to be picky about it...you can buy aftermarket. Or if your feeling adventorous you can mod a solution. I had a vantec iceberg on my Sapphire SB480....took a little doing though :wink:

Want to be a little more effective in your loop? Dont run a Res....its not hard, just requires a little more time to bleed air out of the lines.
August 28, 2006 2:16:41 AM

"Via Aqua 2600 - 2520 litres/hour"

OMG... are you serious? I'd be worried about the tubing flying off with that much flow. I would love to see pics of it.
August 28, 2006 3:40:21 AM

using multiple small radiators would restrict flow
thus need a more powerful pump not a fast one
the speed at which the water flows has no impact on cooling
August 28, 2006 3:51:13 AM

Quote:

Scottchen told me to do that as well, but then how am I suppose to put in a pack fo ice? :lol:  Guess I'm still stuck with a resv.



I tried the ice thing; wasnt as effective as I liked, plus unless you've frozen distilled water, it would aid in corrosion.

Want a little longer lasting cooling result? Run a meaner coolant/water combination. I know the stuff I recieved from DD recommended a 90%water 10% solution mixture. I run around a 70/30 right now, and it drops my overall temps maybe 2-3C when opposed to running a leaner mixture and ice.

The ice effect MIGHT last you half hour....great for finding the max possible OC and then benchmarking, but nothing to consider in a rig thats going to last.

Just make sure those hose clamps are tight around your tube connections, you can still draw air without leaking liquid. So dont think just because your not leaking doesnt mean your air tight.
August 28, 2006 3:53:08 AM

Quote:
I have plenty of screw-tight metal clamps at my disposal and Via Aqua 2600 is less powerful than Hydor L45 others are using.

It's a combination of max flow and head height that equates to overall flow in a loop not just rated max flow of the pump alone.


I was planning to use a Hydor L45 and split it coming off the pump into 2 seperate loops, including seperate radiators, and then recombining before it enters the back end of the pump. Might as well given the raw power of the pump.

Wusy, are you planning to use the Storem Extreme Rev 2 from switchtech, its one of the only resitence based blocks I know of? (not that I know all of them at all)
August 28, 2006 4:01:33 AM

As far as a setup, having rads between the waterblocks is a very effective means of ensuring that cooler water reaches each hotspot. If you have a highflow pump it moves the heated liquid out faster. Waterblocks, generally, have some form of "fin" or "raised surface" which creates a larger surface area for the heat to get to so adequate pressure ensures adequate heat removal. I agre with bigsby that watercooling ram is not needed. Ramblocks use 1/4 ID tubing and that is highly restrictive. Plus, even overclocked, the heatspreaders on ramsticks is sufficient. I'nm a believer in 1/2 ID tubing because it is less restrictive and allows you to use high pressure pumps.

In your case, coling the northbridge is not as necessary as it would be if you had an intel chip. The northbridge controls memory functions (less with AMD systems as they have an ondie memory controller on their chip), coordinates with the PCIe and AGP lanes and bridges the gap between the CPU and system memory (ram). So, while it wouldn't hurt to cool it, that addition is really just a luxury. You could just set up your cooling loop with the CPU and GPU in mind - simple, effective and, of course, cheaper.

Flexible copper tubing? Your cooling loop would be one big giant rad. Also, if you don't use proper cooling liquid you'd experience all kinds of eventual degredation of your loop. Rads are made of aluminum and that doesn't react well with copper - it's like a big giant battery.

1/2 ID tygon tubing, waterblocks for the CPU and GPU, one (or two) rads depending on your cases ability to handle them and a good pump (MCP655 - quiet, strong, small footprintand uses a standard 4-pin molex connector) is more than enough to allow you to overclock.

Here's my cooling system:

1/2 ID inch tygon tubing (11/16 OD R3603)
Swiftech MCP655 Pump
Danger Den Koolsah GPU Waterblock
Voltage Regulator waterblock for 7900 GTX
Maze 4 Northbridge Waterblock
Custom Drivebay Reservoir
Swiftech Peltier 226watt waterblock
Bay drive voltage adjuster for CPU Peltier Waterblock
(2) dual 120mm rads (mounted externally) - each has 4 120mm fans in a "push-pull" configuration
Meanwell 600 SE12 Secondary PSU (for peltier)


Watercooling loop:

Reservoir - Pump - CPU waterblock (peltier) - 1st external dual 120mm rad - GPU waterblock - NB waterblock - 2nd external dual 120mm rad - back to reservoir
August 28, 2006 4:10:48 AM

I've been wondering how the peltiers work, not the physics of it, but rather how do you power it and attach it to the card? I've wanted to do that for a long time as a step between Vapochill and water.
August 28, 2006 4:36:11 AM

I assume you mean you can't find it in NZ. I'll pm you with an idea.

As for peltier:

Thats what I was thinking, extra PSU wise but I wasn't sure. It does sound like alot of extra effort and maybe I will one day when I have the time to set aside a full week to do it correctly, because I can't just imagine screwing a GPU or CPU up real fast if it wasn't done correctly. Thanks for the clarification.
August 28, 2006 5:01:23 AM

A peltier waterblock is put on almost like a normal waterblock, there isn't much difference. The bare wire leads fromt he TEC are attached to a secondary PSU. I use an additional PSU, a Meanwell 600 SE12, that powers the TEC on my CPU. My CPU Tec is 226 watts but I bought a 600 SE12 because I have an additional GPU 226watt TEC that I can run. The TECs take a bit more effort to set up than a normal waterblock (and are a bit mor expensive) but the performance is excellent. At idle or under load my temp stays at 0 celsius. The warmest I've seen my CPU get when I overclocked it was 2 celsius. I think peltier cooling is much more practical than phase change - not as bulky and is noiseless. When I have my GPU TEC on my videocard I used to reach temps as far down as -19 celsius at idle and -17 load. However, adding the second TEC added alot of heat for my rads to remove and my computer was like an extra space heater so I took it out. It is a nice GPU tec and one of the most powerful I've seen around - a custom done Viper Venom III.

Basically, you end up cooling the TEC like you did the CPU and the CPU is cooled by the TEC to a degree much greater than any watercooling could.
August 28, 2006 5:08:36 AM

duh just realized what i said in my first post <i was thinking psi>
August 28, 2006 12:28:07 PM

Quote:
Since you've got a FSP Group Epsilon 600W and have sold your 2nd 7900GTX I would imaging you've got an unused 12V rail right?
Assuming it's 18A, 12x18=216W, that the maximum wattage of the peltier(TEC) you can use on that spare rail alone.


Each of the 4 12v Rails is 15a which puts it at 180watts, which I assume is insufficient to power a 200w ish peltier?

I may have 2 unsued rails, I will have to look once I get everything set back up.
August 28, 2006 12:37:47 PM

It's never a good idea to use your computers PSU to power a TEC. Besides the wattage energy requirements they draw on more amps than most videocards (for the higher wattage peltiers 180 watts and above in most cases). That's why an independent secondary PSU like a Meanwell 300 SE12 is recommended (hooked up to a power relay which is connected to the computers PSU)
August 28, 2006 12:45:30 PM

Yeah that is the main draw back for me, the need to house an extra PSU somewhere in the case because everything has to be in one case to be portable. I am in college so I have to move back home once or twice more before I get out of grad school, so a "portable" PC is necessary because I am damn sure not going to use a 600 Mhz p3 (my moms) to game lol.

I am shooting for a big ass lian li case (24x24x8 or so) and hoping that will house everything I need. Everyone says look at the P180 and I did instore the other day, its freakishly small, like mini me on austin powers. I need a case more like fat bastard that isn't the giant cube one lol.

Oh well, thanks for the help.
August 28, 2006 1:24:06 PM

Thats a decent size case, of course much bigger than my piss poor left over koolance case that I use now. I don't acctually have to order it till around christmas time so that gives me a good 3-4 months to find the right case ... hopefully one cheaper then the Lian Li I have picked out now. Then again its 24.3"x24.6"x8.4" (not sure on width, but its standard), now thats freaking huge :) 

I'll keep looking, thanks for the input.
August 28, 2006 2:17:45 PM

The secondary PSU like a Meanwell that I use for my TEC fits into a 5.25 drivebay
August 28, 2006 2:26:08 PM

the problem with using something like that is that TECs usually use bare wire leads and you've have to mod the TEC or the Booster somehow. You can get the recommended Meanwell PSU for around the same price now if you do some research.
August 28, 2006 2:54:12 PM

Just make sure that your TEC is 12v and not of the 24v varity if you want to take a chance and power it that way. The FSP Booster is a 12v PSU.

Another thing - There is always some headroom in TECs and Meanwell PSUs. That is, A 12v TEC can actually go up to around 15.4 or so. The same for the Meanwell. That means, if you have a good cooling loop you can increase the cooling capacity for the TEC on your CPU, which is something you can't do with that FSP Booster since it come preset at 12 volts. Meanwell PSUs allow you to increase the voltage.
August 28, 2006 5:18:18 PM

Quote:
the problem with using something like that is that TECs usually use bare wire leads and you've have to mod the TEC or the Booster somehow.

It's bare wire shoving into the 6pin PCIe power plug. :roll:

Just have to make sure your plugging it into the right part of the 6 pin, we don't want to reverse the polarity and blow my rig up .... although that may be cool.
September 2, 2006 3:00:52 PM

Quote:
Just make sure that your TEC is 12v and not of the 24v varity if you want to take a chance and power it that way. The FSP Booster is a 12v PSU.

Another thing - There is always some headroom in TECs and Meanwell PSUs. That is, A 12v TEC can actually go up to around 15.4 or so. The same for the Meanwell. That means, if you have a good cooling loop you can increase the cooling capacity for the TEC on your CPU, which is something you can't do with that FSP Booster since it come preset at 12 volts. Meanwell PSUs allow you to increase the voltage.


I do applaud your diligence... It sounds to me like you have more than enough TEC + water cooling experience to keep your rig alive long term. Many people are unwilling to do the maintenance required to keep a rig like yours alive. My intro to water cooling and TECs involved developing a temperature-controlled reaction chamber. It was kind of like a snowball on a hillside and over the course of about 15 years, it grew to be a massive, maintenance-intensive beast. I was very happy the day I got to give it away to an unsuspecting tech... Regarding operating TECs at beyond 12V, some units put out some serious heat at increased operating voltage. You might try to get an efficiency vs. op voltage plot because all are not equal. TECs are pretty neat devices but I dispise their inefficiency.
September 2, 2006 3:26:50 PM

My problem will be mounting the TEC. I want to slap a 226w Peltier on a core 2 duo and cool it with a Swiftech Extreme REv 2. block and a MCP655 pump and have all that pass through a 120mm rad with a 65CFM fan on it. But I have no idea how to mount a TEC. wusy mentioned some foam insulation, which i understand, but the mechanics of it are something I have yet to figure out.

Got a link to a site abotu setting up Peltiers? I'll be doing my own search but help is appreciated.
September 2, 2006 3:46:24 PM
September 2, 2006 4:07:27 PM

thanks for the links. I just want to be well educated about what I am getting myself into because this looks like risky business (which I am a fan of :wink: ).
September 2, 2006 4:32:35 PM

Storm blocks weren't designed to be used to cool TECs. You see, you have to make certain that the entire TEC area is cooled - not just 99% of it because it will crack and that is the end of it. On that one little bit of area that might not be cooled, the temp differential between the hotside/coldside will be too great. It's not like having part of a ramsink on your gpu covered by a waterblock and it will do kinda thing. TECs generate electrically superfast temps on their hot side and their cold side.

Now, if you were able to have a peltier module custom designed to be for fitting to a Storm, that would be different.

Clue69Less, in all actuality, my cooling loop (with my TEC waterblock, is as maintenance-free as any standard watercooling system. I don't have to do anything extra that I didn't have to do when I was just straight watercooling. I'll admit to their inefficiency but, they are much more practical than phase-change cooling - and considerably much more quiet. I live by thebeach here in New York and I like to keep my windows open and breathe in the ocean air. The temps, here, can get pretty warm during the summertime so I needed to find a way to protect my proc. I'm actually looking forward to putting the TEC on my controe and see how it works out, I'm just waiting on a few things I ordered before I do that. If I can maintain 0 degrees celsius on a 955 presler - even under load - I can't wait to see how much I can overlock my E6600 and maintain a good temp.
September 2, 2006 4:52:11 PM

Any suggestions on a possible substitution for a water block? I'll investigate the issue more.
September 2, 2006 5:11:49 PM

Well, the ideal waterblock shape (since the typical peltier module that you would be dealing with is square shaped) is something along the lines of a block shaped like a Danger Den Maze4 GPU form. Now I know that is a GPU waterblock - I just wanted to give you the idea that it should be square shaped like that. In most Peltier waterblocks, you will be dealing with peltier modules that are 40mm * 40mm or 50mm * 50mm in size. 40mm modules aren't going to be of much use to you for CPU cooling because their extreme potential isn't that high (the best I've seen is around 172 to 180 watts perhaps). 50mm modules, thoughh, are ideal as they can get quite high (the module in my Swiftech waterblock is a 226w TEC. There was a company called Arctic Web (which has since gone out of business) that made a TEC waterblock that used a 62mm * 62mm module and was a 437watt unit - very extreme.

Anyway, I hope this gives you food for thought - 40mm * 40mm square is really undersized for CPUs and 50mm * 50mm is just right. So, you take those dimensions when choosing a waterblock. Of course, there is nothing to say that you have to stick straight to the waterblocks that are sold. You can custom make your own block with materials of several blocks if you can find them. On my new Abit board, there is a heatsink near the CPU that cools pwm3 & pwm4 and I am using a GPU waterblock variation to cool them. So, if there is a need, there is a way.

However, the Swiftech TEC waterblock is pretty much the best all around waterblock design right now to use as a TEC/waterblock as it was designed to cool a 50mm * 50mm module. That particular TEC/waterblock costs about $120. Keep in mind of the voltage of the module you are using though. TEC modules that you will most likely encounter will either be 12v or 24v modules and if you are going to use a dedicated secondary PSU then make sure that it is a 12v or 24v corresponding one. Also, a module is always going to be "under-rated". That is, take a 226 watt module. The 12v model of that is actually capable of up to somehting like 15.4 colts so it has an even greater potwntial than 226 watts. The same goes for the 24v variation of the module. Meanwell PSUs that are typically used in TEC setups are designed the same way. I use a 600 SE12 PSU for my TEC and it is rated at 12 volts but can actually raise the voltages up to 15.4 or so. I think you get the picture here. If you could get a voltage adjuster installed for a dedicated secondary PSU that would be ideal (I know a guy who can do that) as it would allow you to raise or lower the power of the TEC based on what you need it for. I have a voltage adjuster on my Meanwell 600 SE12.
September 2, 2006 5:23:00 PM

Alright, taking the 50mm^2 size into account I looked up the dimensions of the Swiftech STORM Extreme and here is what I got from Frozencpu.com

Upper Body: CNC machined Delrin Acetal
Inlet and Outlet: straight threaded ports to 1/4" NPSM standard
Lower body: CNC machined Delrin® Acetal, with 35 mini jets
Base plate: CNC machined C110 copper, lapped to +/- 0.0003", Universal hold-down plate
Body O-ring: (2) 2.5 width x 50mm ID Buna
Nylon Fittings: 1/4" NPSM to 3/8" or 1/2" barbs
Fitting O-ring: (2) EPDM O-ring AS568A Dash Number 112
Base plate dimensions: 2" x 3" (50.8 x 76.2 mm)
Assembly weight: 9.2 oz (260 g)

The base plate seems to conform to the dimensions you outlined. I was definately going with a 226w Peltier (all my stuff in general is coming from frozencpu.com).

The other swiftech block is the Swiftech APOGEE Extreme which is in the same line but it isn't resistence based and is a perfect square block. Specs as follows:

Nylon Fittings: 1/4" NPSM to 3/8" and/or 1/2" barbs
Fitting O-ring: (2) EPDM O-ring AS568A Dash Number 112
Base plate dimensions: 2" x 2" (50.5 x 50.5 mm)
Assembly weight: 6.7 oz (190 g)

The diffrence seems to be that the base of the Storm is the same size as the apogee excep for some excess on 2 sides which do not come in contact with the CPU.
September 2, 2006 5:29:34 PM

Quote:
Clue69Less, in all actuality, my cooling loop (with my TEC waterblock, is as maintenance-free as any standard watercooling system. I don't have to do anything extra that I didn't have to do when I was just straight watercooling.


One thing I'm getting at is that the consequences of a component failure can be more catastrophic. It's never happened to me but I've witnessed a system frying at close range. Nasty!
September 2, 2006 5:31:19 PM

What you really need to be looking at is the Internal design of the waterblock. If you go to the Swiftech site you'll see the breakdown of the Storm and Apogee blocks and how they are designed inside. While their baseplates might be 40mm or 50mm the contruction of the waterchannels inside the block are much smaller - they don't actually cover a 50mm * 50mm area and you have to make certain that the ENTIRE area of the hotside of a TEC module is cooled. The waterchannel of the Storm and the Apogee is actually ovular in shape if you look at it's internal structure.

Go to http://www.swiftnets.com/

Look at the Apogee and Storm blocks. Then, take a look at the thermoelectric blocks and see the difference in design and you will see what I mean.
September 2, 2006 5:33:29 PM

Yes, the potential for catastrophe is much greater if a TEC module isn't properly cooled, it will pretty much fry the CPU in less than a minue. But, I am sufficiently careful of testing my watercooling/TEC cooling aparatus well before it is used in my system.
September 2, 2006 5:39:57 PM

Ok I see what you are getting at. So it would be easier for me to purchase this.

And Clueless, I have had memory go out on me, hard drives start stuttering, 2 mobos die, so component failure is nothing new to me. I will just have to get a temperature monitor.
September 2, 2006 5:47:01 PM

Precisely...

That is the very TEC/waterbock combo that I have been using for over a year now. I've used it on a 3.73EE single core and my present 3.46 955 presler core. I will be using it on my E6600 conroe.
September 2, 2006 6:21:53 PM

Quote:
Precisely...

That is the very TEC/waterbock combo that I have been using for over a year now. I've used it on a 3.73EE single core and my present 3.46 955 presler core. I will be using it on my E6600 conroe.


Alright we are on the same page now, and I understand why (very important to me :wink: ). I want to put a E6600 + Intel Badaxe + Gskill DDR2 800. Then cool it with that swiftech peltier and a dual 120mm rad in the TT Kandalf VA9000SWA case. Hopefully it should all fit.
September 2, 2006 6:35:07 PM

sounds like a plan.....
September 2, 2006 7:25:37 PM

One other thing. The Meanwell PSU - you'll need it to pwoer your TEC waterblock - you'll need to make some kind of custom drivebay tray to hold it - like tearing apart an old CD Drive or DVD Drive.
September 3, 2006 1:39:16 AM

Quote:
One other thing. The Meanwell PSU - you'll need it to pwoer your TEC waterblock - you'll need to make some kind of custom drivebay tray to hold it - like tearing apart an old CD Drive or DVD Drive.

I was noticing that. I took a look at their website and there was no PSU that looked like it was made specificly to fit in a drive bay. It's all good though, I'm very handy with tools and sometimes I get a creative streak.

Thanks for the help. That clears up alot of issues and concerns.

Peace!

PS- Ill post when I get it all setup but I wouldn't expect it before christmas.
September 3, 2006 1:43:06 AM

Good enough - and good luck
!