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RANT regarding Double Standards *AMD/Intel*

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a b à CPUs
September 1, 2006 1:26:43 PM

I have a bone to pick with fanboys and the perspective some have on the CPU industry. I've never been a fan of one company over the other when it comes to CPU's. I've always found myself migrating from one company to the other varying on there product offering at the time of purchase. But I've noticed alot of Hypocrisy, especially coming from the AMD fans out there.
I seem to remember paying nearly $1,200 CDN for my Athlon64 X2 4800+ when it was released. I seem to remember it only having marginal gains over the Pentium D from Intel but still AMD was bloating the price tag essentially in the end scr*wing the customer. Now AMD reduces the prices to near nothing with the flick of a switch... how absurd. Anyone still thinking that AMD is some sort of freedom fighter need to realise that we the consumers are being royally dupped. I'll explain why I think this.
Core 2 Duo is released. Intel releases a brand new product that obliterates the competition at ridiculously low prices (comparatively speaking). I don't understand why AMD fans always point the finger at Intel in this case. seems to me AMD is all about scr*wing the customer just as much as Intel is (profits, profits, profits). Of course we're a market oriented society, so this is to be expected but we still don't have to like it.

My next point is a bone to pick with Intel fans. Why is it that when AMD had the better processor, Intel fans were so quick to defend there Pentium 4/D whatever CPU's when they were clearly outmatched? Why now is it that these same individuals parade the Core 2's advantages over the K8. Seems to me those doing so lost there right at an objectionable point of view due to there undying loyalties.

Many things I question, many peeps think that because all of a sudden I now support the Core 2 Duo that I'm an Intel fanboy, few months ago because of my support for the Athlon64 X2 I was apparently an AMD fanboy. Some peeps seem to forget that objectionable points of view shift a persons beliefs based on factual data.. in this case a marriage of Performance, Power Consumption, Cost and Features are taken into account each time I make a post.

Any thoughts?
September 1, 2006 1:32:47 PM

Your answer is; fierce, dirty MARKETING! It's all I can think about. When one gets the edge they squeeze it as much as they can, no matter if it is very marginal.
Personally, I haven't liked Intel because thy've been selling so much just by GHz ratings and I didn't like AMDs number shifting lately.
September 1, 2006 2:00:45 PM

I'm only a fan of whoever gives me the best product for my money. I don't give a damn if a cpu is made by some hobo on the street if it rapes both Intel and AMD, I'll be a fanboy of the hobo.
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September 1, 2006 2:10:27 PM

Quote:
I'm only a fan of whoever gives me the best product for my money. I don't give a damn if a cpu is made by some hobo on the street if it rapes both Intel and AMD, I'll be a fanboy of the hobo.


i dont think he would be a hobo for long if he managed that

unless of course he blew all his profits on hookers and blow
September 1, 2006 2:24:06 PM

See, what I can understand are fanboys of subjective things, such as music, art, books, yadda yadda. But when you get to objective things, such as which processor is better than the other, I don't see why there are fanboys. I mean, obviously this processor rapes the other one. Why are you still clinging to the now-obsolete processor? It's not even old enough to be a classic, its now just an outdated hunk of metal. If its cheaper, than good, talk about how its cheaper, just don't talk about how its still better than everything else when the rest of the world proves you wrong.
a c 479 à CPUs
a c 121 À AMD
a c 118 å Intel
September 1, 2006 2:32:05 PM

All I can say is that brand loyalty can be a funny thing. It's really not a bad thing unless it is taken to the extreme. Unfortunately many people have. Perhaps they were jaded by AMD or Intel and vowed never to buy their products ever again.

While marketing can play a role, AMD's marketing has always been rather mute compared to Intel. They mainly relied on word of mouth, benchmarks and lower prices. Hell, I built my Athlon XP machine because of two out of those three factors. Can you guess which two? AMD had their PR rating and I have to admit when I first saw them I was initially confused, but a bit of research helped. As for Intel just about everyone knows that they are guilty of pushing MHz and Netburst. That worked for a while, but eventually they became Intel's Achille's Heel.

I think people liked and went with AMD in the past because they were the underdog. I'm sure a lot of people root for the underdog in any industry or sporting event because they just wanted to see the "winning team" get knocked down a peg or two. However, people have idolized AMD as the underdog to the point where they think AMD exists to "enpower the consumer" by providing inexpensive, but powerful CPUs. Nothing is further from the truth. Both AMD and Intel are "evil" because they are driven by the shareholders.

There are good things and bad things about both AMD and Intel, but they need each to improve performance. More importantly we as consumers need them both. How fast do you think Intel's CPUs will be today if AMD remained in the shadows and simply built CPUs for Intel like they have done so in the past?

Ideally, price and performance should be the driving factors of any market economy. Unfortunately, brand loyalty seems to make some people ignore the hard data that is readily available as to who's CPU is better at a particular price point.
September 1, 2006 2:54:28 PM

Quote:
...Why is it that when AMD had the better processor, Intel fans were so quick to defend there Pentium 4/D whatever CPU's when they were clearly outmatched?
Any thoughts?


Its the same reason some people love old Ferrraris. They may not be absolutely the fastest any more but they still have tons more style than the competition.

Intel invented the X86 instruction set. AMD has copied it. AMD's stability has always been an issue. Back when they first came out AMD chips were terrible for blue screens, incompatability and odd crashes. They're pretty good now, but there's still odd problems with drivers etc. Why even go there? just buy an Intel.
a b à CPUs
September 1, 2006 2:59:35 PM

Quote:
...Why is it that when AMD had the better processor, Intel fans were so quick to defend there Pentium 4/D whatever CPU's when they were clearly outmatched?
Any thoughts?


Its the same reason some people love old Ferrraris. They may not be absolutely the fastest any more but they still have tons more style than the competition.

Intel invented the X86 instruction set. AMD has copied it. AMD's stability has always been an issue. Back when they first came out AMD chips were terrible for blue screens, incompatability and odd crashes. They're pretty good now, but there's still odd problems with drivers etc. Why even go there? just buy an Intel.

Could you please share some of the incompatibilities AMD chips currently have with us?
We'd also like to hear about the od problems with drivers as well. Please share some examples with us.

thank you.
September 1, 2006 3:11:09 PM

Getting both sides' fanboys into thread, w00t :roll:
Synergy6
September 1, 2006 3:13:05 PM

Quote:
Your answer is; fierce, dirty MARKETING! It's all I can think about. When one gets the edge they squeeze it as much as they can, no matter if it is very marginal.
Personally, I haven't liked Intel because thy've been selling so much just by GHz ratings and I didn't like AMDs number shifting lately.


Very much in agreement with this. Intel pulled some very dirty tricks years ago that drove me into the AMD camp. But AMD hasn't had any real improvements for quite a while, still cranking out cpu's in the 2.2-2.6 mhz range. They change the names and numbers, but little or no performance increase occurs. So I end up looking to Intel again, though a bit warily.

I think its a time for all cpu buyers to think carefully about how they spend their money.
September 1, 2006 3:35:26 PM

Quote:
...Why is it that when AMD had the better processor, Intel fans were so quick to defend there Pentium 4/D whatever CPU's when they were clearly outmatched?
Any thoughts?


Its the same reason some people love old Ferrraris. They may not be absolutely the fastest any more but they still have tons more style than the competition.

Intel invented the X86 instruction set. AMD has copied it. AMD's stability has always been an issue. Back when they first came out AMD chips were terrible for blue screens, incompatability and odd crashes. They're pretty good now, but there's still odd problems with drivers etc. Why even go there? just buy an Intel.

Could you please share some of the incompatibilities AMD chips currently have with us?
We'd also like to hear about the od problems with drivers as well. Please share some examples with us.

thank you.

Where as I don't have any printed material for you, I can say the from professional experiance AMD has had compatibility problems in the past. Our company owns several hundred PCs. Over the years our IT's statistcs have shown that the PCs with AMD chips have suffered considerablely more strange crashes/BSODs/ and replacement then the PCs with Intel inside. (Small pun...sorry)
Even though our company is driven somewhat by money, (AMD PCs were always a few bucks cheaper apples to apples) We are no longer able to purchase PCs with AMD CPUs. IT doens't want to mess with them and Accounting doesn't want to spend the extra money over the long run.

I won't say that AMD still has these problems today because I don't personally know one way or the other. I can tell you that past performance has left a bad taste in my mouth and left me in some dark/dank job site with a misbehaving PC.

Some of the software I use on machines runs the factory/refinery/plant. BSOD's are very frightening to the operators. After a few times, they have a tendency to lose total faith in the control system and along with it, our company.

So when the rubber hits the road, and we are talking about machines that do more than just play games, we pretty much stick to using Intel. At least for now.
September 1, 2006 3:35:47 PM

BUY FROM THE HOBO'S ON THE STREET!!!!!!!

Whatever, we can only choose from these two companies. We can be wary and complain all we want, but unless we're going to start our own 65nm fabs and design a new processor from the ground up, we have no choice but to buy from either of these two.

Quantam computing anyone?
September 1, 2006 3:38:04 PM

They pay the price of bleeding edge so they can have the bigger, better, faster. Then, because of Murphy's Law, they find themselves in the back seat and feel they have to defend their expenditure/choices.

Same thing as a 48 yo man buying a red Ferrari only no mid-life excuse.
September 1, 2006 3:42:54 PM

Quote:
Its the same reason some people love old Ferrraris. They may not be absolutely the fastest any more but they still have tons more style than the competition.


The reason for love of old Ferraris is subjective, not quantitative. It's about style and art reasons, not performance. The closer comparison is akin to GM vs. Hyundai. I say Hyundai, because they've had a rocky start, some people had poor experiences with them, but they were usually good value for the money. Hyundai is now producing vehicles with (in many cases) higher quality and better satisfaction than many of GM's offerings. You're also seeing them introducing 'Premium' vehicles to increase profits and take advantage of their recently improved image. But, regardless of how good they become, or what sort of value they represent, you'll have GM fans who will only buy GM vehicles.
September 1, 2006 3:44:12 PM

Had to reply, since it seems so much fuss is being made of a little piece of silicon. This argument would have been over if AMD and Intel hadn't had a spat over the direction of X86 when the Pentium was designed (sounds familiar - can you say IBM-Microsoft?) but having both has been good for all.

Besides, truly, processor speeds and general performance haven't been a real issue since the 2 GHz barrier was passed. Dual core isn't an answer either, until the software catches up. Now graphics and IO bottlenecks - why isn't more invested there? And while CPUs cool off, the rest of the parts of a PC heat up, so we're still losing that battle too. Neither of these are either AMD or Intel's fault (well maybe AMD can be complicit now that they are buying ATI, and Intel's integrated graphics don't qualify). Meanwhile fanboys, sheath your weapons or, better yet, go beat up the graphics, chipset and disk drive makers. We need more speed there! (And while your at it, theres a place in Redmond and some flightless aquatic birds that could be flogged too!)
September 1, 2006 3:46:12 PM

At first, i pretty much hate k6,k6-2 and k6-III for their random crashes (didn't know mobo and ram played part too, what a stupid noob i was back then), but when athlon came out, i just loved amd.my love deepen when athlon xp, and much later athlon64 came out.it was because here in malaysia, amd's cpu were sold a bit cheaper than intel's (if my memory serves me right) and while at similar speed (athlon xp and athlon 64), amd beat intel... guess i just love something cheap but a bit powerful IMO.I thought like "i am an AMD fanboy" plus amd's claim that intel use monopoly /pressure/unfair business practice moved me farther from intel...but now as i found out,C2D beat am2 and now i was like "hey!intel beat amd n i'm gonna support intel!".now i realize brand loyalty won't satisfy my need, it's price/ferformance that will...so as long the performance is good and the price is right, i'll choose that camp...and i don't preety much care about unfair practice as long that doesn't hurt either me or my pocket IMO... sorry for the long history..
September 1, 2006 3:55:33 PM

The world is filled with brand loyal fanatics and there is no way you can argue logic with them.

Chev VS Ford VS Dodge is a great example.

What pisses me off is many people have never owned enough of their hated brand's product to really have a valid opinion.

Arguments like "I had (brand X / model Y) once, and it was a peice of sh..."

"A review at (website X) had 1 whole product for 3 whole days and said (product Y) was the bomb or it sucked! Now I'm the authority on it and I will spread the newz!"

Or the classic "My friend's girlfriend's former cousin-in-law had a (brandX) and it sucked!"

Unless someone has a history with and brand and product, and has purchased / serviced at least dozens of them over a few years, I don't feel their opinion is valid. There are bad lemons that make people sour pretty quick to judge.
September 1, 2006 4:05:48 PM

Quote:


Same thing as a 48 yo man buying a red Ferrari only no mid-life excuse.


Don't pick on my red Ferrari or mid-life crisis. I fell in love with my red Ferrari when I was only 12 years old. Thought it was the most beautiful thing I'd ever seen. Ok, I hadn't quite discovered the football cheerleaders yet. And at least I've lived long enough to have a mid-life crisis and to afford the Ferrari.
September 1, 2006 4:27:08 PM

The K6 processors (and Celeron for that matter) have a bad rap because of the OEM system builders.

They would never put premium components in a machine with value priced processors. PERIOD.

Nearly all OEM K6 machines were built with the cheapest of boards (PC Chips/Houston Tech/Amptron/Vantron/M-Tech/Acer/ECS etc. etc. etc) the cheapest of chipsets (ALi/SiS), generic RAM and onboard cache, terrible power supplies and then they team that all up with a 4200-rpm Quantum bigfoot or 5400 rpm drive at best.

There wasn't really top performing and rock solid chipset from anyone for K6. The ALi Magik, VIA Apollo and SiS chipsets all had poor performance, stability and/or compatibility which didn't help AMD at all.

On the otherhand, Intel had their bullet-proof FX/VX/TX chipsets and finally the 440BX which teamed with PentiumPRO+MMX (PII) put the K6 in its grave.

I'm thrilled AMD bought ATi. Now they finally have their own chipset to battle platforms, not just CPUs.
September 1, 2006 4:38:15 PM

Quote:
The K6 processors (and Celeron for that matter) have a bad rap because of the OEM system builders.

They would never put premium components in a machine with value priced processors. PERIOD.

Nearly all OEM K6 machines were built with the cheapest of boards (PC Chips/Houston Tech/Amptron/Vantron/M-Tech/Acer/ECS etc. etc. etc) the cheapest of chipsets (ALi/SiS), generic RAM and onboard cache, terrible power supplies and then they team that all up with a 4200-rpm Quantum bigfoot or 5400 rpm drive at best.

There wasn't really top performing and rock solid chipset from anyone for K6. The ALi Magik, VIA Apollo and SiS chipsets all had poor performance, stability and/or compatibility which didn't help AMD at all.

On the otherhand, Intel had their bullet-proof FX/VX/TX chipsets and finally the 440BX which teamed with PentiumPRO+MMX (PII) put the K6 in its grave.

I'm thrilled AMD bought ATi. Now they finally have their own chipset to battle platforms, not just CPUs.


Yes,you're right... what we got was PC Chips mobo with either ALi Aladdin V (sans any magic) or Sis chipsets....but Celly had better luck though because they had Intel chipset...and no,it was cloned pc built buy the pc store...i and my friends was a total noob back then, we just pay :oops:  with our loan money :cry:  ...we was like "looked!i have 64Mb of ram while you only have 32Mb" without even knowing the timings/ram speed /chip etc
September 1, 2006 4:38:41 PM

Quote:
The K6 processors (and Celeron for that matter) have a bad rap because of the OEM system builders.

They would never put premium components in a machine with value priced processors. PERIOD.

Nearly all OEM K6 machines were built with the cheapest of boards (PC Chips/Houston Tech/Amptron/Vantron/M-Tech/Acer/ECS etc. etc. etc) the cheapest of chipsets (ALi/SiS), generic RAM and onboard cache, terrible power supplies and then they team that all up with a 4200-rpm Quantum bigfoot or 5400 rpm drive at best.

There wasn't really top performing and rock solid chipset from anyone for K6. The ALi Magik, VIA Apollo and SiS chipsets all had poor performance, stability and/or compatibility which didn't help AMD at all.

On the otherhand, Intel had their bullet-proof FX/VX/TX chipsets and finally the 440BX which teamed with PentiumPRO+MMX (PII) put the K6 in its grave.

I'm thrilled AMD bought ATi. Now they finally have their own chipset to battle platforms, not just CPUs.


Yes,you're right... what we got was PC Chips mobo with either ALi Aladdin V (sans any magic) or Sis chipsets....but Celly had better luck though because they had Intel chipset...and no,it was cloned pc built buy the pc store...i and my friends was a total noob back then, we just pay :oops:  with our loan money :cry:  ...we was like "looked!i have 64Mb of ram while you only have 32Mb" without even knowing the timings/ram speed /chip etc ...heheheh, a bit off topic, sorry guys :oops:  :oops:  :oops: 
September 1, 2006 4:52:00 PM

Ha, I remember those days well! Back when I was rolling the Pentium MMX 233 and upgraded to an 800 Coppermine. That thing was HOT.

Some of the support is brand loyalty as was pointed out (read: stupid), but some of it is the incremental upgraders like myself. I always think one gen ahead when buying a new part, that's why I stuck with intel for so long. Since I could get a P3 board with RDRAM (thinking it was the future) I knew I could get the next gen board with it also (which I did, a s478 P4). Then RDRAM got dumped (but I still sold the stuff for as much as I paid for it! two years later!) But I still had the s478 chip, so I just stuck with that. I finally recently dumped intel, even though they had the better product coming, just because I was tired of being sh*t on by them. That and its not like AMD isn't going to release a new good chip (might not be the best, but I don't buy top end), so I'm future-proofed for a gen, and waited for the price drop so I did it on the cheap.

I am running AMD because I decided Intel didn't deserve any of my money for a while. At the end of the day, they're both corporations, they're going to make as much money any way they can. Intel had the hot chips (early days of the P4) and they charged a premium for it. Then AMD had the hot chips (A64) so they also charged a premium for it. Now intel is trying to cut the legs out from under AMD, market share wise. I'm not really surprised that only just now consumers are seeing the benefits of die shrinks.
September 1, 2006 4:56:00 PM

Quote:
I'm only a fan of whoever gives me the best product for my money. I don't give a damn if a cpu is made by some hobo on the street if it rapes both Intel and AMD, I'll be a fanboy of the hobo.


i dont think he would be a hobo for long if he managed that

unless of course he blew all his profits on hookers and blow

Friday September 01, 2006
The Inquirer

"Hookers and Blow Industries has released the new HOBO* chips for 775 and 940 sockets!"

http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=34087

and intel is cutting back.
September 1, 2006 5:11:54 PM

This thread has me thinking,

I wonder if the same folks (recognized as true unadulterated fanboys of AMD/INTEL) are as UUUUmmmmm Pasionate yeah pasionate about other things in their life?

I wonder if all the choices in their life are similar.

Do they only wear one brand of shoes? Do they only wear a single brand of underwear/socks? Do all the other brands (ones they don't wear) suck too?

Do they only drive a Chev/Dodge/Ferrari? The Ferrari is a joke because if you are of the fanboy mentality chances are the rest of the choices you make in life will prohibit the ownership of said vehicle. I only drive Chevy... I have good reason... I get to use employee pricing (father-in-law) without any haggling and that makes it a pretty good price/performance buy for me.

Just curious... Does everything out there that they DO NOT use also suck?

The Fanboy community seems to be an "all or nothing" mindset.

Hey 9-inch can you answer some of these questions for me? :)  (sorry I had to)
September 1, 2006 5:31:00 PM

Quote:
This thread has me thinking,

I wonder if the same folks (recognized as true unadulterated fanboys of AMD/INTEL) are as UUUUmmmmm Pasionate yeah pasionate about other things in their life?

I wonder if all the choices in their life are similar.

Do they only wear one brand of shoes? Do they only wear a single brand of underwear/socks? Do all the other brands (ones they don't wear) suck too?

Do they only drive a Chev/Dodge/Ferrari? The Ferrari is a joke because if you are of the fanboy mentality chances are the rest of the choices you make in life will prohibit the ownership of said vehicle. I only drive Chevy... I have good reason... I get to use employee pricing (father-in-law) without any haggling and that makes it a pretty good price/performance buy for me.

Just curious... Does everything out there that they DO NOT use also suck?

The Fanboy community seems to be an "all or nothing" mindset.

Hey 9-inch can you answer some of these questions for me? :)  (sorry I had to)


all i have to say is cherry jollyranchers are the best, and if anyone has anything to say about that you can find me in the lobby, ill be the one stabbing jaws.

i dont wanna hear none of that "apple is the best" crap
September 1, 2006 5:48:08 PM

Quote:
BUY FROM THE HOBO'S ON THE STREET!!!!!!!

Whatever, we can only choose from these two companies. We can be wary and complain all we want, but unless we're going to start our own 65nm fabs and design a new processor from the ground up, we have no choice but to buy from either of these two.

Quantam computing anyone?
3>>>>VIA. :wink:
September 1, 2006 5:54:28 PM

Well, I understand there may have been compatability issues, but with so many other componets in the system, I am not sure how that is the fault of AMD. Intel has an advantage in this arena because just about everything is tested against Intel since they have historically been the standard. AMD is a different case. But, also, if you are buying a system, the system builder should know enough to put on compatable componets in it. It isn't very difficult to do, and the AMD machines I have built have been pretty damn stable.... just as stable as the Intel machines which my buddy has been building. I just think most of the problems come from the motherboard and the other componets attached to it, along with software issues. It's my opinion that you can't simply say that the issues come from the cpu with so many other variables.

Also, both companies have done there fair share of charging an arm and a leg for a marginally superior product. They are just that, companies, and they both try to make the money while they can. And also, both sets of "fanboys" are just as guilty of being just that, fanboys.
September 1, 2006 5:55:47 PM

Re: RANTS. Now I'm going to pick some bones with all the "boys" who seem to lack any perspective at all on these matters of prices and values of computer hardware. Grow up, kids! Do you know what an old Victor desk calculator used to cost in constant dollars? Have you ever tried to squint out a third digit on a ten inch slide rule? Computer hardware today is dirt cheap, and when manufacturers cut their ridiculously low prices even more they aren't cheating any consumers in any way. I bought my AMD 4800 for $630 back in March, and I don't feel the least bit cheated by any of the subsequent discounts. Even before this current price war the prices of CPUs bore no relationship whatsoever to their actual values, and so for virtually all computer hardware these days ($35 for a DVD writer? Come on!). What IS ridiculous is the price of Microsoft's garbage and the fact that they have the nerve to charge anything at all for it. So quit whining about hardware that isn't over priced and devote a little time to learning how to run real computer operating systems (which are free). You may lose a little gaming time right now, but in a couple of years even that will be a Unix domain.
September 1, 2006 5:57:53 PM

I don't what the big issue is here. Everyone knows that Cyrix processors are the best, hand down...
September 1, 2006 5:59:45 PM

<mini-rant>

Your first point makes me think a lot about the Linux community. Some people hate Microsoft so much that they'll support Linux to the death and come up with some wild claims. My favorite is that Linux is free. However, to get the same functionality as Windows in an easy to use package for a non-geek consumer (which is most consumers...like a minimum of 95%), you'll still have to pay quite a bit of money. And don't get me started on things like Redhat's liscensing agreement for businesses (it's pretty nasty).

*could continue all over the place, but returns to topic*

The point is is that all publicly held companies (AMD/Intel/ATI/NVIDIA/Microsoft/Redhat/Pixar/etc......) are out there to make money. If they aren't, they're foolish, because companies that are their competition are out there to make money. And they will do it however they can, usually legally. The only reason a company won't do things illegally is usually it ends up costing them more money than they gain through the activity. The idea of being an underdog or "freedom fighter" is marketing and PR boost - nothing more. It's to marry people who were most likely stoned in the 60s to an idea or a product so that the company will have loyal consumers regardless of actual products. The company is never looking for your best interest - they are looking to suck out as much money as possible. If you believe otherwise, I have some things to sell that you might be interested in. All profits go to help baby cows*




* and by baby cows, I mean a single object made out of leather...
September 1, 2006 6:34:01 PM

Dude you crack me up...

Companies are trying to make money? Really? Even AMD? No way...

What are some of those things you have for sale cause I like to help baby cows.. Veal = Bad!! Aminals have feelings too. (PETA 4EVER).

I was hoping to sell this bridge I have.. It was made by AMD as a fund rasier to club baby seals ( I mean stop the clubbing of baby seals).

There is that Beach front property off the coast of Florida I have as well. That was neat of Microsoft to sponsor that one..
September 1, 2006 6:53:19 PM

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=AMD&t=5y

Check out some of the information on that page. How do you know AMD is "dupping" us? You think maybe, just maybe, AMD is selling processors for cheaper than they can afford to just to be competative until their next product comes out? AMD has never been in the red before...oh wait...they have. Have you noticed AMD's stock cut almost in half in the last few months...they must have really been gouging us now that when they cut their prices they are losing shareholders. I cant wait to see the results on their next annual report.

If your going to piss and moan about how you overpaid for your processor, maybe you shouldn't be buying $1200 processors as soon as they come out...cough cough 4800+ cough cough core 2 extreme...

BTW I bought a 4000+ for 320 dollars in March and now its 120, boo hoo, what a conspiracy. I hate AMD for pricing their products competatively. They should leave the price high so that I dont feel like I got ripped off and consequently sell none of their existing inventory.

I am going to laugh when in another year you buy some kentsfield processor for 2 large and then come in the forum and complain about how your old processor is now half the price and you got ripped off...
September 1, 2006 7:03:32 PM

Chris was that in reply to me?

/me never said AMD was dupping anyone.... Not seriously anyways...

/me never spent 1200 on ANY processor ever...
September 1, 2006 7:04:28 PM

Quote:
Its the same reason some people love old Ferrraris. They may not be absolutely the fastest any more but they still have tons more style than the competition.


The reason for love of old Ferraris is subjective, not quantitative. It's about style and art reasons, not performance. The closer comparison is akin to GM vs. Hyundai. I say Hyundai, because they've had a rocky start, some people had poor experiences with them, but they were usually good value for the money. Hyundai is now producing vehicles with (in many cases) higher quality and better satisfaction than many of GM's offerings. You're also seeing them introducing 'Premium' vehicles to increase profits and take advantage of their recently improved image. But, regardless of how good they become, or what sort of value they represent, you'll have GM fans who will only buy GM vehicles.

While it is a similar preference, those faithful to an automotive company vs those faithful to a CPU manufacturer have one glaring difference: An automobile is mechanical device consisting of many moving, wearing parts, which must be replaced at periodic intervals to maintain the operation of the automobile. A cpu is a solid state electrical device with no mechanical parts, hence it does not need regular maintenance.

Why is this difference so huge? It's simple. The availability of replacement parts, the price of replacement parts and the complexity of the replacement for wear items such as brakes, rotors, shocks, struts, tires, clutches, bearings, exhaust, plugs, wires, belts and hoses wildly vary among automobile models and automobile brands. The buyer of an automobile would be a fool not to take into consideration the amount of maintenance required and the price of this maintenance when considering an automobile to purchase. Those who are fans of one particular manufacturer over another generally are so because of one of three things:
1. they are familiar with the mechanicals of that manufacturer's cars, or at least of a certain model from said manufacturer. These people perform their own maintenance and repair, and tend to stick to a certain manufacturer because they know "how to work on it", and often have a significant amount of money invested in specialty tools for that particular manufacturer. These people are mechanics, either of the ASA certified or the shadetree variety.

2. they have had a good track record with automobiles made by that certain manufacturer. Everyone has heard a story about some guy's brother driving his (insert brand) for 200,000 miles without ever needed a single major repair. For these people, reliability and longevity are usually the top priority. Since these people tend to keep their automobiles for a longer period of time, the cost of repairs is also a major consideration. For example, a BMW might go for 200,000 miles, but if it requires tire rotations every 5,000 miles and expensive price for replacement parts such as brakes, shocks, struts, tires, clutches, etc., then it probably won't be the manufacturer of choice for this type of person.

3. These people usually have money to burn, so they care not to be bothered by such banal things as maintenance costs and reliability/longevity. Instead, this group of people make their buying decision based more on style and image, and the feelings that such a car might provoke. These people feel the automobile is a direct reflection of who they are and of their status in life. In that respect, owning a Mercedes, BMW, Viper, Corvette, Ferarri, or Hummer is, to them, much better than owning a layman's Ford or Chevrolet.

Getting back to your Hyundai vs GM example, if the GM fan in question was of the first variety, this person wouldn't want a hyundai because of the lack of familiarity that buying outside his brand would create. After spending years studying the mechanicals of one manufacturer's vehicles to the point that he now knows it like the back of his hand, an abrupt switch to a new manufacturer would render most of his knowledge useless.

If the GM fan is of the second variety, he may see no need to switch as he has never had a problem with his brand of choice. Of the three though, these are the people most likely to try a new brand of car company.

If the GM fan is of the third variety, he probably would laugh at the prospect of owning a Hyundai. This guy probably owns a performance model from GM, or owns something from GM's truck line. Simply put, a Hyundai won't do the standing quarter in 13 seconds, and it won't crawl over rocks, ford streams, or invoke intimidation and/or envy from everyone else.

So, regardless of the fact that Hyundai's build quality has improved to challenge that of Honda, a car fan won't likely switch to Hyundai. It's just not a true analogy for the AMD vs Intel fanboy war. The whole automotive fan thing is much more akin to the "PC vs Mac" fanboy war, where, while still performing the same tasks, a Mac and a PC are different enough in their build, style, interface, reliability and price, that the preference for one over the other is much more complicated than looking at a bar graph of cpu performance.
September 1, 2006 7:10:48 PM

I find it so amusing that in this thread, of all threads, a few fanboys popped up.

On a separate (or is it?) issue, AMD stability issues are not, in my experience as a system builder and network/computer administrator for the University of California, Riverside, due to AMD CPUs - as another poster said, back in the day when AMD was a budget CPU name, budget chipsets and ram were used in those systems. It's no wonder the systems were less stable. In my experience with Athlon XP and Athlon 64 and Athlon 64 X2 CPUs (with a variety of chipsets) stability has been a complete nonissue. The same can be said for intel cpu's and chipsets - the B.S.O.Ds I've seen have *all* been due to software issues, failing ram, or completely clogged heatsinks and the ensuing overheating. When it's due to software, the only evidence I have is that those same systems, when reimaged and given back to the user, have absolutely no issues for another year or so.
September 1, 2006 7:15:15 PM

Brand loyalty is silly. Every company has a problem product from time-to-time. Every company produces low-end "crippled" products. If everyone ignored marketing hype and researched productes on a model-by-model basis (or at least line-by-line) instead of brand-by-brand we would ALL be better off.

I've bought a lot of AMD since I build my first PC (K6-2 450 w/ 33% OC w0000!) because they were affordable. I've still used Intel when I saw a good deal (a P4 1.6ghz ES and a P4 2.66ghz ES to be specific). It was kind of funny to see them take the performance crown and hold it for a long time, but they charged a huge premium for their top of the line CPUs and I never bought any, just kept buying Bartons for the most part as the performance gain wasn't that big and I could recycle some of me DDR ram. Now they are more back to where they were when I first noticed a big surge in their popularity* competing for price/performance in the low to mid range. Hopefully AMD hasn't forgotten how to fight in these trenches, and it allows me to leap over to DDR2 and PCIe for marginal costs :) 

When I was a bench tech my boss HATED me trying to sell high-end AMD system. But it was so much easier. I could save ~$100 on CPU/mobo and put in a better GFX card and other extras that customers appreciated more. Problem was he only stocked low-end integrated GPU AMD motherboards and only High-end Intel chipset, Intel Brand intel mobos so I would special order nVidia chipset mobos. He, like many others, was trying to compare a $40mobo to a $140mobo and blame the difference on the CPU.

*I don't know about the rest of you, but in my LAN party circles EVERYONE was buying Athalon XPs and OCing them, I would be one of like 10 people at a 100person party running intel, and only because I got it for almost nothing.

And what about VIA? They did make a little noise in the performance/watt arena awhile ago. If they could move ahead with performance it would be nice if we had more then 2 choices for gaming CPUs.

The most important point is: the era of CPU performance development is dead. We will not see triple digit performance gains for single core desktop computers again in our lifetimes (we *might* see it for multi-core systems, but multi-cpu isn't anything new so don't hold your breath for the software that magicially makes multi-cpu amazing, software designers have known about it all along and largely ignored it, they aren't going to change the way they code just to help AMD and Intel sell more chips). The software and other hardware components are now the bottlenecks, CPUs just need to be more affordable, smaller, and draw less power. You can't put a 500ghz chip in someone's home (http://news.com.com/Chip+breaks+speed+record+in+deep+fr...) in our lifetime, it won't happen. Where the hell would you plug it in??? EA and Microsoft need to wake up and start wasting system resources. The linux community needs to wake up and write wizards and comprehendable directions (how many of you have tried to use linux for more then basic office productivity? there is a rediculus lack of support).

AMD performance vs. Intel performance? about the same
Power consumption? about the same
Compatibility? about the same
AMD stability vs. Intel stability? On the desktop? Even back in the beginning of the athalon days they were still both more stable then the software you were running, and AMD has gotten better, Intel hasn't, and the software hasn't so "who cares?" If you're running server that need 99.99% uptime you need to buy it from an OEM that does a bazillion regressions of stability tests to ensure compatibility so let them worry about it.
AMD top-of-the-line prices vs. Intel top-of-the-line prices? If you're buying top-of-the-line you shouldn't be worrying about price.

Bang for the buck? Good question! It changes everyday, there are a variety of tools available to check current and future pricing trends. pricewatch.com, pricegrabber.com, digitimes.com, isuppli.com etc. nock yourself out.

Ok, now that I've posted my 2cents on CPU industry trends we can all move on and stop arguing about something that doesn't matter :)  Move along now, shoo, nothing to see here. Go complain about intel GFX or something...
September 1, 2006 7:16:13 PM

Quote:
Chris was that in reply to me?

/me never said AMD was dupping anyone.... Not seriously anyways...

/me never spent 1200 on ANY processor ever...


Nope, original post. Nobody had mentioned anything about AMD's history of dropping prices to stay competative, even if that means going into the red.

It's logic not rocket science
September 2, 2006 12:12:25 AM

To the OP, no thoughts, you know I agree completely :wink: .

Fanboys are so annoying. I love my C2D setup right now. It's cool, quiet, runs so fast I don't even need all the power 99% of the time and am over the moon. The thing is, if it was AMD that released C2D, I would have still bought it. I needed the best PC possible and got it for the best price/performance ratio I could get.

I think most people in the forums agree. But I see a change to the situation comming soon. When the X2's where released they obliterated everything else on the market. The 4400+ was my recomendation of cpus for along time. No software could really tax it, because it did everything "we" wanted to and more.

Now C2D obliterates the X2's and its still the same situation. Both sets of CPU's are so good that most users wont even know the difference. If these two companies keep developing like this, the gap between regular users and powers users will grow so great no one (that matters) will care (I hope).

There are exceptions to this though, and some examples of it not being the case (that prove the point). I just see my friend who I built my first PC for a long time ago, with that old 1.6GHZ Sempron and he's happy with it. Sure he does his most intensive work on his Core Duo machine, but its besides the point. Power users need to be smarter than fanboys and get the best CPU for the price thats possible. Regular users need not worry.

I went on too long, sorry :oops:  Did I mention I agree?
September 2, 2006 1:23:47 AM

i, as a relative computer noob, have heard mentions of other proc makers besides hobos, intel, and amd. would anybody care to give me a history lesson on some of these other processors? are there any out NOW that are any GOOD? there must be, somewhere....
September 2, 2006 12:36:43 PM

What you say is very much the truth about it.

Us the customers are getting very good deals because of this right now. I just picked up a X2 3800 + for $168 CDN. Not for myself but building a new system for my mother and 4 of my younger brothers. I'm still saving up for my next new build in 6 months.

But because of all these prices drops the stores are starting to feel the pressure of it all. Talk to a few local stores around my area all the time. I'm in Ottawa as well and my fav place to pick up computer parts is now closed due to all the price cuts from both company's(Deals Direct). Where I bought that CPU they only made 5 $ off the sale, which isn't much at all. Tho I was just lucky and found an error on there web site which gave me a nice a deal. Normally around $190 CDN. In this case they didn't make any money at all on the sale because of the error.

I don't know how other areas are doing in Canada and the States. But a lot of local stores are starting to wondering what AMD and Intel are thinking with the price war. I know some stores have increased the prices a large amount to keep the income at a good spot. But people like me look for the best deal possible and will search for hours checking out prices.
I've personaly liked Intel a little better for what I had to do. Mostly video editing, but that never stopped me from informing my friends and family that AMD has made very good CPUs as well. Now it's the other way around and Intel has the upper hand. But that doesn't mean at all AMD's aren't good at all anymore. I've had a few friends that were die hard AMD fans.

I forget who said it on the forums, nothing wrong with being a fan, it's when it gets into the cult state that you should really seek professional help. But one thing I noticed about die hard fanboys is that they never know that much about either product. They think they do, but they are normal wrong.
September 2, 2006 4:19:36 PM

thank you very much for the history lesson JumpingJack. I really appreciate it. so, this seems like a pretty neutral ground to ask another question. "k8l" is going to run off of the new AM2, right? kinda like C2Ds run off of the 775 socket. So, at the point of release of the k8l, amd will have put two big processors on the AM2, as intel has done. my question is, is core 2 duo worth it? although my noobsenses are weak, i kinda sense a socket change from intel. so, are the beautiful benchmarks of the C2D good enough to buy into 775? or is that socket going to become stagnant soon?
September 2, 2006 4:39:59 PM

Quote:
I have a bone to pick with fanboys


Don't we all?
September 2, 2006 5:24:33 PM

Quote:
http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=AMD&t=5y

Check out some of the information on that page. How do you know AMD is "dupping" us? You think maybe, just maybe, AMD is selling processors for cheaper than they can afford to just to be competative until their next product comes out? AMD has never been in the red before...oh wait...they have. Have you noticed AMD's stock cut almost in half in the last few months...they must have really been gouging us now that when they cut their prices they are losing shareholders. I cant wait to see the results on their next annual report.

If your going to piss and moan about how you overpaid for your processor, maybe you shouldn't be buying $1200 processors as soon as they come out...cough cough 4800+ cough cough core 2 extreme...

BTW I bought a 4000+ for 320 dollars in March and now its 120, boo hoo, what a conspiracy. I hate AMD for pricing their products competatively. They should leave the price high so that I dont feel like I got ripped off and consequently sell none of their existing inventory.

I am going to laugh when in another year you buy some kentsfield processor for 2 large and then come in the forum and complain about how your old processor is now half the price and you got ripped off...


I always, always, always thought that paying over $1K for a CPU was & is completely absurd, I think I can spare one minute of my life to encode a DVD, Hell, I can even "sacrifice" my vision to play at 60FPS instead of 75. I know its a little more complex than that but i agree. Whether its Intel, AMD, Nike or Gatorade; that's economics, thats business, thats life.

"A human being has a natural desire to have more of a good thing than he really needs."
-Mark Twain
September 2, 2006 7:40:24 PM

Quote:
"k8l" is going to run off of the new AM2, right? kinda like C2Ds run off of the 775 socket. So, at the point of release of the k8l, amd will have put two big processors on the AM2, as intel has done.


K8L will be a server chip. When it "filters" down to the desktop (probably late 2007), it will be a AM3 chip. AMD is saying you will be able to use the AM3 in a AM2 socket, but you won't be able to use some of the new technologies such as DDR3, without an AM3 motherboard.

Quote:
my question is, is core 2 duo worth it? although my noobsenses are weak, i kinda sense a socket change from intel. so, are the beautiful benchmarks of the C2D good enough to buy into 775? or is that socket going to become stagnant soon?


Intel has just released the 965 chipset on socket 775. They state that they want to release a new platform every 2 years. So, I doubt they will change the socket before then.

Quote:
thank you very much for the history lesson JumpingJack. I really appreciate it.


Ditto. Jack, you truly are an abundant source. I thank you for all of your contributions, you are much appreciated.
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