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QUESTION pagecounts

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Anonymous
August 12, 2005 6:05:43 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

I hear a lot the word "pagecount" is this something like the mileage on a
car? a number that stays there when powered off, when toner changed, etc?
does it only apply to certain printers? if so, would the hp lj 1100 be one
of them? and if so, would a 7000 pagecount be considered low, moderate or
high?

regards.

please remove spam if emailing me.

More about : question pagecounts

Anonymous
August 12, 2005 11:05:09 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

Page counts are just what they say they are. The number of pages printed.
I've not had any laser's that didn't give a page count and even my Canon
inkjets give a page count. 7000 isn't even a case and a half of paper. I
haven't had an HP 1100, but I'm sure it would give you that info from the
configuration printout.
--
Ron

"tiktak" <hikoryERASETHISPART@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:X_WKe.13850$pX4.365356@weber.videotron.net...
>I hear a lot the word "pagecount" is this something like the mileage on a
>car? a number that stays there when powered off, when toner changed, etc?
>does it only apply to certain printers? if so, would the hp lj 1100 be
>one of them? and if so, would a 7000 pagecount be considered low, moderate
>or high?
>
> regards.
>
> please remove spam if emailing me.
>
>
>
Anonymous
August 12, 2005 11:05:10 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

thank you.
I just wasn't aware of what they are.

so I was correct then, they are a count number of some sort, showing up on
some display when you turn on the printer, and this number cannot be erased
modified etc. everytime a page prints, it increases... stored on some sort
of internal memory, so its not erased while printer is off line. did I get
it right pretty much?

thanks again.



"drc023" <d+r+c+0+2+3@sbcXXXglobalYYY.ZZZnet> wrote in message
news:FSXKe.123$DV3.70@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com...
> Page counts are just what they say they are. The number of pages printed.
> I've not had any laser's that didn't give a page count and even my Canon
> inkjets give a page count. 7000 isn't even a case and a half of paper. I
> haven't had an HP 1100, but I'm sure it would give you that info from the
> configuration printout.
> --
> Ron
>
> "tiktak" <hikoryERASETHISPART@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:X_WKe.13850$pX4.365356@weber.videotron.net...
>>I hear a lot the word "pagecount" is this something like the mileage on a
>>car? a number that stays there when powered off, when toner changed, etc?
>>does it only apply to certain printers? if so, would the hp lj 1100 be
>>one of them? and if so, would a 7000 pagecount be considered low,
>>moderate or high?
>>
>> regards.
>>
>> please remove spam if emailing me.
Related resources
Anonymous
August 12, 2005 11:27:27 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

On Fri, 12 Aug 2005 07:18:18 UTC, "tiktak"
<hikoryERASETHISPART@gmail.com> wrote:

> so I was correct then, they are a count number of some sort, showing up on
> some display when you turn on the printer, and this number cannot be erased
> modified etc. everytime a page prints, it increases... stored on some sort
> of internal memory, so its not erased while printer is off line. did I get
> it right pretty much?

Pretty much. Often they don't get displayed on startup, but you can ask
the printer to print the pagecount. (on my HP LJ4+, it's on the test
page).

Some printer/scanner combinations will give two counts - scans and
prints.

The page count is useful for seeing how long consumables last, seeing
when a service is due, and to see how much a used printer is worth!
--
Bob Eager
begin a new life...take up Extreme Ironing!
Anonymous
August 12, 2005 11:27:28 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

"Bob Eager" <rde42@spamcop.net> wrote in message
news:176uZD2KcidF-pn2-IZJMPIVnvSyQ@rikki.tavi.co.uk...
> On Fri, 12 Aug 2005 07:18:18 UTC, "tiktak"
> <hikoryERASETHISPART@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> so I was correct then, they are a count number of some sort, showing up
>> on
>> some display when you turn on the printer, and this number cannot be
>> erased
>> modified etc. everytime a page prints, it increases... stored on some
>> sort
>> of internal memory, so its not erased while printer is off line. did I
>> get
>> it right pretty much?
>
> Pretty much. Often they don't get displayed on startup, but you can ask
> the printer to print the pagecount. (on my HP LJ4+, it's on the test
> page).
>
> Some printer/scanner combinations will give two counts - scans and
> prints.
>
> The page count is useful for seeing how long consumables last, seeing
> when a service is due, and to see how much a used printer is worth!
> --
> Bob Eager

good.
thank you.

yes it definitely is useful. right now, to me the use of it is much more in
the sense of the use of a car mileage when you buy it. but I understand the
other uses as well.

regards.
August 12, 2005 11:35:06 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

>I See. so it can be faked.
>like everything else today I suppose!
>how do I tell or suspect whether its been faked? I think I could tell on a
>car...but a printer?

It's harder to tell on a printer, esp since it's part of the normal
operation to reset the page count when you replace key parts... for
example on an inkjet it's common to replace the waste bin aka the
diaper.

7000 on a lj1100 for example (Canon LBP-22X print engine IIRC)... is
equal to two large toner replacements, or three small toner
replacements. It also represents 14 packs of paper.

To best judge if this is alot or a little is to look at the lifespan of
other parts in the printer such as the fuser, the part that heats the
paper and affixes the toner to it. I know it's rg5-4589-000 but I
have no clue what life is on that part. A fuser's life can be anywhere
from the 10,000 range to the 100,000 range depending on the printer and
model... though I've never actually replaced one in my life. Given
it's a $70-$120 part i'm sure it's life is lowish esp since the fuser
was the foil type and not a tough teflon roll. I would guess 10,000p
is a good number to check the condition of the rollers, if good check
again at 20,000p.
Anonymous
August 12, 2005 11:53:28 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

On Fri, 12 Aug 2005 07:31:00 UTC, "tiktak"
<hikoryERASETHISPART@gmail.com> wrote:

> yes it definitely is useful. right now, to me the use of it is much more in
> the sense of the use of a car mileage when you buy it. but I understand the
> other uses as well.

Just as with a car mileage, it can sometimes be faked...!

I find it useful to know how long a toner cartridge has lasted, and how
long to go. I have a sticker inside the lid where I record toner
changes...

--
Bob Eager
begin a new life...take up Extreme Ironing!
Anonymous
August 12, 2005 11:53:29 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

"Bob Eager" <rde42@spamcop.net> wrote in message
news:176uZD2KcidF-pn2-GCbK3uCbBwrk@rikki.tavi.co.uk...
> On Fri, 12 Aug 2005 07:31:00 UTC, "tiktak"
> <hikoryERASETHISPART@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> yes it definitely is useful. right now, to me the use of it is much more
>> in
>> the sense of the use of a car mileage when you buy it. but I understand
>> the
>> other uses as well.
>
> Just as with a car mileage, it can sometimes be faked...!
>
> I find it useful to know how long a toner cartridge has lasted, and how
> long to go. I have a sticker inside the lid where I record toner
> changes...

I See. so it can be faked.
like everything else today I suppose!

how do I tell or suspect whether its been faked? I think I could tell on a
car...but a printer?
Anonymous
August 12, 2005 2:36:54 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

On Fri, 12 Aug 2005 08:25:35 UTC, "tiktak"
<hikoryERASETHISPART@gmail.com> wrote:

> > Just as with a car mileage, it can sometimes be faked...!
> >
> > I find it useful to know how long a toner cartridge has lasted, and how
> > long to go. I have a sticker inside the lid where I record toner
> > changes...
>
> I See. so it can be faked.
> like everything else today I suppose!
>
> how do I tell or suspect whether its been faked? I think I could tell on a
> car...but a printer?

General wear and tear...but needs experience!
--
Bob Eager
begin a new life...take up Extreme Ironing!
August 12, 2005 3:49:01 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

In message <X_WKe.13850$pX4.365356@weber.videotron.net>, tiktak
<hikoryERASETHISPART@gmail.com> writes
>I hear a lot the word "pagecount" is this something like the mileage on a
>car? a number that stays there when powered off, when toner changed, etc?
>does it only apply to certain printers? if so, would the hp lj 1100 be one
>of them? and if so, would a 7000 pagecount be considered low, moderate or
>high?
>
I think this is a cheap and cheerful laser but even so 7000 isnt much, I
would guess its probably on its third toner cartridge.

--
Timothy
Anonymous
August 12, 2005 7:29:41 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

On Fri, 12 Aug 2005 14:35:06 UTC, "zakezuke" <zakezuke_us@yahoo.com>
wrote:

> >I See. so it can be faked.
> >like everything else today I suppose!
> >how do I tell or suspect whether its been faked? I think I could tell on a
> >car...but a printer?
>
> It's harder to tell on a printer, esp since it's part of the normal
> operation to reset the page count when you replace key parts... for
> example on an inkjet it's common to replace the waste bin aka the
> diaper.

Not true on the average laser printer; it's supposed to be
non-resettable.

For example, on the LaserJet 4 it can be reset by an engineer - and that
is done if the engineer changes the board with the counter NVRAM on it.
He is supposed to set the new board to have the same count as the old
one.

--
Bob Eager
begin a new life...take up Extreme Ironing!
August 13, 2005 1:39:42 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

"tiktak" <hikoryERASETHISPART@gmail.com> wrote:
>I hear a lot the word "pagecount" is this something like the mileage on a
>car? a number that stays there when powered off, when toner changed, etc?
>does it only apply to certain printers? if so, would the hp lj 1100 be one
>of them? and if so, would a 7000 pagecount be considered low, moderate or
>high?
>
>regards.
>
>please remove spam if emailing me.

7000 pages is quite low, I have seen a LJ1100 with nearly 100,000 pages but
that is rare.
If the print quality is good and it does not exhibit any feeding problems
(multiple feed, failing to feed or skewed feed) then it is probably a good
printer. They are very reliable.
The only way to reset the page count on a LJ1100 is to replace the main logic
board so far as I know.
Tony
August 13, 2005 5:02:43 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

> Isn't that what I said? (without giving details)?

Actually you said "on the LaserJet 4 it can be reset by an engineer -
and that
is done if the engineer changes the board with the counter NVRAM on
it".

>From experence i've met a few LJ4s that have been rebult where the
rebuilder has reset the counter to zero after replacing all the rollers
and some key parts... and explained that after a major rebuild it was a
good idea to set it to zero so he and others know how many prints are
on the new parts. I imagine it would be unscrupulous if they had set
it to a value under that zero... and sold them as rebuilt.
August 13, 2005 8:06:07 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

> It's completely at variance with the instructions in the service manual.
> A proper maintenance log will give the same information. What is lost
> with your engineer's method is the life of the parts that are not
> replaced...!

You assume that the "engineer" in question has the offical service
manual. I wouldn't call them "engineers" my self but rather mechanics.


I have seen rebuilt HP printers... or ones that have gone through major
service get their counters reset. Some cases this is logged... honest
joes who are depending on the printer's counter to see how much has
been printied out of their shop. Is this in varanace with the offical
instructions? Very bloody likely... but never the less this is done
esp in cases where service is under warranty for a specific number of
pages. Other cases this is not logged.

Not to speak of average joe users who encounter a problem on their
printer that says "need service now" who rather than getting service
will just reset the counters so the printer thinks it's new and
continue printing till the next time.

A good rule of thumb... always bet on stupid... or rather always bet on
someone doing things their own way in total varanace with the offical
instructions.
Anonymous
August 14, 2005 1:11:47 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

On Sat, 13 Aug 2005 20:02:43 UTC, "zakezuke" <zakezuke_us@yahoo.com>
wrote:

> >From experence i've met a few LJ4s that have been rebult where the
> rebuilder has reset the counter to zero after replacing all the rollers
> and some key parts... and explained that after a major rebuild it was a
> good idea to set it to zero so he and others know how many prints are
> on the new parts. I imagine it would be unscrupulous if they had set
> it to a value under that zero... and sold them as rebuilt.

It's completely at variance with the instructions in the service manual.
A proper maintenance log will give the same information. What is lost
with your engineer's method is the life of the parts that are not
replaced...!

--
Bob Eager
begin a new life...take up Extreme Ironing!
August 14, 2005 4:25:11 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

"zakezuke" <zakezuke_us@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> It's completely at variance with the instructions in the service manual.
>> A proper maintenance log will give the same information. What is lost
>> with your engineer's method is the life of the parts that are not
>> replaced...!
>
>You assume that the "engineer" in question has the offical service
>manual. I wouldn't call them "engineers" my self but rather mechanics.
>
Would you compromise and call them technicians? They cannot do their job well
without a good knowledge of several operating systems, networking and of course
the eccentricities of badly written drivers as well as a thorough knowledge of
maybe several dozen different printers. Just a thought.
But with respect to page counters.....several older and/or low end monochrome
laser printers don't have a counter. Some have one counter that may or may not
be resettable without replacing a board. And some have two or more counters
related to total pages printed and pages since the last maintenance kit was
fitted, toner/drum life etc. Colour lasers on the other hand may have more than
a dozen counters all of which are often resettable if you have the codes.
Clearly a technician has a responsibility to reset counters appropriately and
whilst I am sure there are some that don't it really is not in their interest
to artificially reduce page counts (it may be in their interest to increase
them if they are unscrupulous!).
Bit of a moot point really....The most important counter is total page count
since "birth" since this is a measure of the printers overall usage hence the
requirement to enter this count into the memory of the printer if the
appropriate electronics are replaced, unfortunately this is not always possible
if the original page count cannot retreived after an electronic failure, hence
the advisability of the user to keep a log especially with high throughput
printers.
Tony

<snip>
August 14, 2005 5:38:39 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

On 12 Aug 2005 15:29:41 GMT, "Bob Eager" <rde42@spamcop.net> wrote:

>Not true on the average laser printer; it's supposed to be
>non-resettable.
>
>For example, on the LaserJet 4 it can be reset by an engineer - and that
>is done if the engineer changes the board with the counter NVRAM on it.
>He is supposed to set the new board to have the same count as the old
>one.

On an HP4 or 5 at least, you can set the pagecount to be anything you
want from the front panel if you know the magic combination of
keypresses to enter "service mode". It's in the service manual, which
you can find at http://www.fixyourownprinter.com/reference/manuals.
I don't think this is a secret from anyone unscrupulous enough to want
to do it, so be aware it's no guarantee.
Anonymous
August 14, 2005 5:38:40 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

On Sat, 13 Aug 2005 17:38:39 UTC, Alan <none@none.com> wrote:

> On 12 Aug 2005 15:29:41 GMT, "Bob Eager" <rde42@spamcop.net> wrote:
>
> >Not true on the average laser printer; it's supposed to be
> >non-resettable.
> >
> >For example, on the LaserJet 4 it can be reset by an engineer - and that
> >is done if the engineer changes the board with the counter NVRAM on it.
> >He is supposed to set the new board to have the same count as the old
> >one.
>
> On an HP4 or 5 at least, you can set the pagecount to be anything you
> want from the front panel if you know the magic combination of
> keypresses to enter "service mode". It's in the service manual, which
> you can find at http://www.fixyourownprinter.com/reference/manuals.
> I don't think this is a secret from anyone unscrupulous enough to want
> to do it, so be aware it's no guarantee.

Isn't that what I said? (without giving details)?
--
Bob Eager
begin a new life...take up Extreme Ironing!
Anonymous
August 14, 2005 5:38:41 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

Actually, no, it's not what you stated at all.

You said: engineer required, only can be done during board exchange

He said: User accessible with service code, done by front panel presses.

That's a bit like equating hiring a mechanic to replace a faulty
transmission so your car will go, with turning the correct ignition key
on your car to start it and drive away.

Art

Bob Eager wrote:

> On Sat, 13 Aug 2005 17:38:39 UTC, Alan <none@none.com> wrote:
>
>
>>On 12 Aug 2005 15:29:41 GMT, "Bob Eager" <rde42@spamcop.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Not true on the average laser printer; it's supposed to be
>>>non-resettable.
>>>
>>>For example, on the LaserJet 4 it can be reset by an engineer - and that
>>>is done if the engineer changes the board with the counter NVRAM on it.
>>>He is supposed to set the new board to have the same count as the old
>>>one.
>>
>>On an HP4 or 5 at least, you can set the pagecount to be anything you
>>want from the front panel if you know the magic combination of
>>keypresses to enter "service mode". It's in the service manual, which
>>you can find at http://www.fixyourownprinter.com/reference/manuals.
>>I don't think this is a secret from anyone unscrupulous enough to want
>>to do it, so be aware it's no guarantee.
>
>
> Isn't that what I said? (without giving details)?
Anonymous
August 14, 2005 5:38:42 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

On Sat, 13 Aug 2005 21:39:56 UTC, Arthur Entlich
<e-printerhelp@mvps.org> top posted:

> Actually, no, it's not what you stated at all.
>
> You said: engineer required, only can be done during board exchange

No, I didn't. Here, cut and pasted from my post:

"For example, on the LaserJet 4 it can be reset by an engineer - and
that
is done if the engineer changes the board with the counter NVRAM on it.
"

At no point did I say "engineer required". I just said it can be reset
by an engineer. As long as one has the information in the service
manual, anyone CAN do it.

And I did not say "only can be done during board exchange". I said that
the value is reset by the engineer when the board is changed - that is
to carry over the value from the old board to the new, so that the page
count is preserved.

> He said: User accessible with service code, done by front panel presses.

Yes, it is done with front panel presses. I didn't mention the precise
mechanism, that's all. It's usually only done by an engineer, of course
- or a dishonest user - or an honest user changing the formatter board.

--
Bob Eager
begin a new life...take up Extreme Ironing!
August 14, 2005 9:37:55 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

> Your lack of comprehension is astounding. I give up.

His comprehension is perfectly fine. You see someone like me who
doesn't actually know the button presses to the LJ 4 reading ""Not true
on the average laser printer; it's supposed to be non-resettable" and
"that is done if the engineer changes the board with the counter NVRAM
on it" is going to assume you mean a difficult task, like yanking off
the NVRAM chip... and either taking it to a machine that can reprogram
the NVRAM or taking the time cutting the battery, reconnecting the
trace and popping it back in the printer so to convenience the printer
the NVRAM needs to be reset and ask for values to put in it. Having to
retrofit batteries on NVRAM chips in a pinch I can tell you for a fact
dealing with these things are a huge pain in the tookus. I'm sure this
is in total varanace of any offical procedure, but what can you do that
doesn't involve ordering parts and waiting.

I wonder though if a board is bad or if a printer is not printing how
do you get these numbers to transfer to a new board without extracting
the NVRAM chip, and if you can extract it and it's good why not just
use it in the new board rather than deal with manual entry. Perhaps
my lack of comprehension is astounding as well... but i'm seeing the LJ
4 as being just old enough for the batteries on the NVRAM chips to
start to fail.
August 14, 2005 11:16:32 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

> Well, of course, you can't. But the user usually has a good
> approximation to the number. I always record the count when I change the
> toner cartridge, for example.

I don't honestly know why some rebuilt printers are reset to zero, only
that i've met many, as well as some shops who reset the page count to
make life easier for them doing maintance... as in reset to zero as
soon as the part with the longest duty cycle is replaced. I also know
that many go through PC recycling... as in they are dropped off without
their histories. I gotta say under that scenero... a very common
one... there is no way to establish the history, not to speak of users
who are not so attentive as your self. Rule of thumb... always bet on
lazy.

> I don't know offhand what kind of NVRAM the formatter board uses (I can
> go and look at a spare board if you want to know). But I've seen 12 year
> old printers that have never had that board replaced or serviced; I
> suspect that any battery change is supposed to mean an exchange board.

I honestly don't know if the LJ 4 has their NVRAM chip soldered on or
not. The batteries on them are not officaly end user replaceable..
they are embeaded somewhere between the dram and a hard plastic shell.
The easy way to deal with failed batteries on NVRAM is to get another
chip. The hard way is to scrape away with an exacto knife and trace
out where the battery meets the chip and find the pads that attach to
the dram. You go the hard way if the equipment in question won't
operate without valid data in the NVRAM and can't do without it for a
mailorder part. I've never seen the procedure in any service manual
but I have met many batteries attached to the back of NVRAM chips with
velcro and thought "cool, won't have to touch this till 2150". While I
don't know the particulars of the LJ 4 nor what type of NVRAM is
used... in general the useful lifespan is 10 to 20 years. You can't
really change the battery, you can only hope to disconnect the old one
and jerry-rig on a new one. Unless there are other forms of NV that
i'm not aware of... it's just ram with a battery backup that becomes
just as volitile as ordinary ram when the supply of power gives out.

I've only had to swap out a board for my stylewriter II NT once... and
as I disabled the "print page count on startup" I had no clue what the
pagecount was. Come to think about it... I had no idea how to set the
pagecount. Not that I couldn't find out... I had no idea what the
pagecount was. When I gave away the printer... the next chap was
interested in the page count, but I had to say no idea... blew a board,
diabled hard copy upon startup. They were more interested in my
knowelege of obscure propriority apple commands to do this than the
pagecount, either that or testing my honesty... either way what could I
do? This is not uncommon for anyone who needed a main board
replacement. Can't get the page count board broken.
August 14, 2005 11:36:10 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

> > Well "it can be reset by an engineer" gives the distinct impression of
> > specialised knowledge, a higher degree and tools being necessary, not
> > just pressing several keys on the control panel.

> Specialised knowledge == service manual !!
> Higher degree - do you mean a Master's degree?

Higher than high-school, hince the name higher degree. Generally
speaking people mean BA or above when saying higher degree.

Generally speaking engineers design and build... technicians and
mechanics repair and maintain. I know there are exceptions... like an
engineer on a train (engine operator), custodial engineers, power plant
operators and engineers (engine operator). I would never call a
person who's only qualifications in printers is reading the service
manual an engineer. Service manuals are far too limited and don't
really list anything that requires specalized knowledge but rather list
button presses and large serviceable parts that can be replaced.
Printer techs don't typicaly don't even have repair manuals.

Resetting the pagecount doesn't require a degree or knowelege of
electronic nor mechanical engineering, nor a university education.
They hardly require specalized knowelge of printers. They are for
printer technicians so someone not very well paid could make a
judgement whether to replace a part or send to the factory.
August 14, 2005 12:03:11 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

> I'm come across those elsewhere - sometimes with a clock chip too (the
> DS12887 is a case in point; used on some IBM PS/2 models).

Could be... can't say I ever remember seeing a traditional battery on a
PS/2. Can't think of why you'd need one really except for the clock...
unless the data for MCA cards was stored on the NVRAM and not the HD.
I don't know of any PS/2s still in service except a few oddball ones
that have 3270 terminal adapters onboard. If this data is on the
NVRAM, well lots of luck to them looking for the reference disk or
whatever IBM called the associated data file required to configure MCA
cards. IBM at one point had all this data on FTP... but as they
ditched lifetime free tech support I imagine they probally ditched this
data as well.

Frankly I know jack about the PS/2 even though i'm quoted on somesite
as having contibuted some useful information on a website somewhere....
hell if I know anything useful about the PS/2.

> > Unless there are other forms of NV that
> > i'm not aware of... it's just ram with a battery backup that becomes
> > just as volitile as ordinary ram when the supply of power gives out.

> The Apple LaserWriter II/IINT used an EEPROM - no battery needed. The
> downside was that it wore out after a few thousand writes, so was used
> only for rarely-changed information - not pagecounts!

Good thing I didn't say it used NVRAM then i'd feel foolish. But on
the other hand I know for a fact that the HP LJ II error code 68 "NVRAM
ERROR". But I honestly don't know how the canon sx based printers were
different... as in I wouldn't know if the NVram that a HP LJ II would
complain about was on the main system board or part of the print
engine.

Or you could be telling me that the page count on the LW NT was not
stored on the system board, in which case I guess i'm a dumb ass for
even thinking I lost that information when I changed system boards.
The fact that the page printed on start up had a big bold friendly
postscript P on it along with lots of data like the printers name, in
my case Oscar and the page count lead me to believe that this was
system board specific information. But given I've never read a service
manual for these printers, nor a parts manual nor a repair manual I
have no idea where the NVram was on the LJ II nor if the LW NT would
have the same thing.

I can say with all honesty I have no idea what method the LW NT used to
keep track of it's page count.

But needless to say even if I didn't loose this information... the
NVRAM in a old printers may have dead batteries, and no possible way to
get a real page count. A very real situation even if I have no idea
where this data was stored on a LW NT. A legit reason for the counter
to be wrong are cases there the system board failed and the person
replacing it has no clue what the pagecount is.
Anonymous
August 14, 2005 1:42:35 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

I'd call this "extreme backpedaling" to go with the your extreme ironing.

Let's look at the WHOLE posting, shall we?

On Fri, 12 Aug 2005 14:35:06 UTC, "zakezuke" <zakezuke_us@yahoo.com>
wrote:


>>> >I See. so it can be faked.
>>> >like everything else today I suppose!
>>> >how do I tell or suspect whether its been faked? I think I could
tell on a
>>> >car...but a printer?
>
>>
>> It's harder to tell on a printer, esp since it's part of the normal
>> operation to reset the page count when you replace key parts... for
>> example on an inkjet it's common to replace the waste bin aka the
>> diaper.


Not true on the average laser printer; it's supposed to be
non-resettable.

For example, on the LaserJet 4 it can be reset by an engineer - and that
is done if the engineer changes the board with the counter NVRAM on it.
He is supposed to set the new board to have the same count as the old
one.

-- Bob Eager begin a new life...take up Extreme Ironing!


==============
See how you try to refute the ease in "faking" or resetting page count?
See how you state "Not true on the average laser printer; it's
supposed to be non-resettable."

You and the folks in Orwell's 1984 from the Ministry of Truth would get
along well. Too bad posts leave a history behind.

This isn't a big issue, but it really annoys me when someone, even after
being caught giving out misleading information tries to defend
themselves through selective quoting.

It really would have been much easier (and more correct) to just admit
you made an error, especially after admonishing someone else who
actually pretty much had it correct.

Art

Bob Eager wrote:

> On Sat, 13 Aug 2005 21:39:56 UTC, Arthur Entlich
> <e-printerhelp@mvps.org> top posted:
>
>
>>Actually, no, it's not what you stated at all.
>>
>>You said: engineer required, only can be done during board exchange
>
>
> No, I didn't. Here, cut and pasted from my post:
>
> "For example, on the LaserJet 4 it can be reset by an engineer - and
> that
> is done if the engineer changes the board with the counter NVRAM on it.
> "
>
> At no point did I say "engineer required". I just said it can be reset
> by an engineer. As long as one has the information in the service
> manual, anyone CAN do it.
>
> And I did not say "only can be done during board exchange". I said that
> the value is reset by the engineer when the board is changed - that is
> to carry over the value from the old board to the new, so that the page
> count is preserved.
>
>
>>He said: User accessible with service code, done by front panel presses.
>
>
> Yes, it is done with front panel presses. I didn't mention the precise
> mechanism, that's all. It's usually only done by an engineer, of course
> - or a dishonest user - or an honest user changing the formatter board.
>
Anonymous
August 14, 2005 1:59:52 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 09:42:35 UTC, Arthur Entlich
<e-printerhelp@mvps.org> wrote:

> I'd call this "extreme backpedaling" to go with the your extreme ironing.

Your lack of comprehension is astounding. I give up.

--
Bob Eager
begin a new life...take up Extreme Ironing!
Anonymous
August 14, 2005 4:53:59 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 12:37:55 UTC, "zakezuke" <zakezuke_us@yahoo.com>
wrote:

> > Your lack of comprehension is astounding. I give up.
>
> His comprehension is perfectly fine. You see someone like me who
> doesn't actually know the button presses to the LJ 4 reading ""Not true
> on the average laser printer; it's supposed to be non-resettable" and

Note the word "supposed". I know it's resettable, you know it's
resettable, but the user isn't *supposed* to do it. With the number of
bootleg copies of the service manual around, it's common knowledge how
to do it, and it's pointless trying to keep it a secret!

> "that is done if the engineer changes the board with the counter NVRAM
> on it" is going to assume you mean a difficult task, like yanking off
> the NVRAM chip

No, just that if the engineer does a board change, the number in the new
board is set to that in the old one. A simple task.

> I wonder though if a board is bad or if a printer is not printing how
> do you get these numbers to transfer to a new board without extracting
> the NVRAM chip, and if you can extract it and it's good why not just
> use it in the new board rather than deal with manual entry.

Well, of course, you can't. But the user usually has a good
approximation to the number. I always record the count when I change the
toner cartridge, for example.

I don't know offhand what kind of NVRAM the formatter board uses (I can
go and look at a spare board if you want to know). But I've seen 12 year
old printers that have never had that board replaced or serviced; I
suspect that any battery change is supposed to mean an exchange board.

--
Bob Eager
begin a new life...take up Extreme Ironing!
Anonymous
August 14, 2005 6:34:21 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 14:16:32 UTC, "zakezuke" <zakezuke_us@yahoo.com>
wrote:

> > I don't know offhand what kind of NVRAM the formatter board uses (I can
> > go and look at a spare board if you want to know). But I've seen 12 year
> > old printers that have never had that board replaced or serviced; I
> > suspect that any battery change is supposed to mean an exchange board.
>
> I honestly don't know if the LJ 4 has their NVRAM chip soldered on or
> not. The batteries on them are not officaly end user replaceable..
> they are embeaded somewhere between the dram and a hard plastic shell.

I'm come across those elsewhere - sometimes with a clock chip too (the
DS12887 is a case in point; used on some IBM PS/2 models).

> While I
> don't know the particulars of the LJ 4 nor what type of NVRAM is
> used... in general the useful lifespan is 10 to 20 years.

I've found 12887s tend to fail after about 10 years, but it's certainly
in that ball park for most of them, I guess.

> Unless there are other forms of NV that
> i'm not aware of... it's just ram with a battery backup that becomes
> just as volitile as ordinary ram when the supply of power gives out.

The Apple LaserWriter II/IINT used an EEPROM - no battery needed. The
downside was that it wore out after a few thousand writes, so was used
only for rarely-changed information - not pagecounts!

--
Bob Eager
begin a new life...take up Extreme Ironing!
August 14, 2005 6:53:31 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

> No, I'm sure it was store dsomwhere. It just wasn't in the EEPROM that
> contained the user configuration. I'm quoting from the user manual when
> I say that it was EEPROM and had a limited life. There were even special
> PostScript programs that avoided updating it if the value was the same
> already - to save a 'cycle'.

> Possibly the LW II used an NVRAM chip with only a few bytes of storage,
> hence the EEPROM. Dunno.

Well, the page count was non-volitile... plus the fact that appletalk
was an option on the LW II, a feature that I would be surprised wasn't
on the system board. While I didn't "say" the LW II used an NV ram,
and I might have incorrectly assumed the LW II stored it's page count
on the system board... i'm going to take a leap of faith here and say
when the LW II did it's AARP probe and found a successful address... it
stored it somewhere, somewhere in non-volitile memory on the system
board as appletalk was a feature somewhat unique to the apple printers
on the canon sx engine. This could be NVRAM or some form of externaly
battery backed up ram. Appletalk devices typicaly used NVRAM. I don't
have a board handy to see if there was a battery, so i'd be curious to
know what was used to store nonvolitle data that was likely to change.
Anonymous
August 14, 2005 7:03:53 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 14:36:10 UTC, "zakezuke" <zakezuke_us@yahoo.com>
wrote:

> > Higher degree - do you mean a Master's degree?
>
> Higher than high-school, hince the name higher degree. Generally
> speaking people mean BA or above when saying higher degree.

Not in the UK, in my experience. There's 'degree' (BA, BSc, BEng) and
there's 'higher degree' (MSc, MA, MEng, Ph.D, DPhil). But then I'm
probably picky because I'm in the education area! So, just mentioned for
interest!

> Generally speaking engineers design and build... technicians and
> mechanics repair and maintain.

I wholeheartedly agree. Unfortunately the word is often used for
'technician' (e.g. by HP themselves) and I used that definition (I
should not have). The term 'engineer' is much misused, and real
engineers do not enjoy the status that they should.

(I speak as a qualified engineer!)

--
Bob Eager
begin a new life...take up Extreme Ironing!
August 14, 2005 7:08:23 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

additional... what gets reset when you flip dipswitch 1 if not either
battery backed up ram or nvram.
Anonymous
August 14, 2005 7:51:28 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 15:03:11 UTC, "zakezuke" <zakezuke_us@yahoo.com>
wrote:

> > I'm come across those elsewhere - sometimes with a clock chip too (the
> > DS12887 is a case in point; used on some IBM PS/2 models).
>
> Could be... can't say I ever remember seeing a traditional battery on a
> PS/2. Can't think of why you'd need one really except for the clock...
> unless the data for MCA cards was stored on the NVRAM and not the HD.

The NVRAM was for the clock (year digits) and also for the MCA
configuration data. Stored in NVRAM in all but the later models (in fact
I think it was in NVRAM even then).

> cards. IBM at one point had all this data on FTP... but as they
> ditched lifetime free tech support I imagine they probally ditched this
> data as well.

It's all still on FTP, but without an index. There are plenrty of
mirrors though.

> Or you could be telling me that the page count on the LW NT was not
> stored on the system board, in which case I guess i'm a dumb ass for
> even thinking I lost that information when I changed system boards.

No, I'm sure it was store dsomwhere. It just wasn't in the EEPROM that
contained the user configuration. I'm quoting from the user manual when
I say that it was EEPROM and had a limited life. There were even special
PostScript programs that avoided updating it if the value was the same
already - to save a 'cycle'.

Possibly the LW II used an NVRAM chip with only a few bytes of storage,
hence the EEPROM. Dunno.
--
Bob Eager
begin a new life...take up Extreme Ironing!
August 14, 2005 9:02:03 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

>Dunno...it's years since I had the Apple LW!

You seemed very clear on the subject when you said

"The Apple LaserWriter II/IINT used an EEPROM - no battery needed. The
downside was that it wore out after a few thousand writes, so was used
only for rarely-changed information - not pagecounts!"

An odd thing to say when you replied to my concern over swapping boards
in an LW NT about the pagecount. It did clearly employ a form of
non-volitile memory. The LJ II used NVRAM to store info like
pagecounts. It could be this data was stored as part of the Canon SX
engine seperate from the system board. But that doesn't take into
account data as part of the appletalk protocal, which typicaly used
NVram. I'd wager a battery was required, but a service manual which
tends to speak to the lowest common denominator, if it said "no battery
is required" might mean "no external battery replacement is nessicary
as the lifespand on the NVram is 10+ years".

But since you have a manual... I would suspect that if you would look
up the fuction of dipswitch one it would tell you want it resets.

I'm not going to say what the LW NT used because I don't have any idea.
I know it kept track of pagecounts and being appletalk stored the last
useable address two things that would be annoying to put in an EEprom.
There was also trivial little things like baud rate for the serial
ports, printer name, basic printer settings which were not changed all
that offen that could have been stored in an EEprom I imagine... but
really it's a total mystery to me why being up EEproms when talking
about pagecounts. Seems odd and I have no idea what your point was.
August 15, 2005 2:02:47 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

On 13 Aug 2005 18:31:56 GMT, "Bob Eager" <rde42@spamcop.net> wrote:

>On Sat, 13 Aug 2005 17:38:39 UTC, Alan <none@none.com> wrote:
>
>> >For example, on the LaserJet 4 it can be reset by an engineer - and that
>> >is done if the engineer changes the board with the counter NVRAM on it.
>> >He is supposed to set the new board to have the same count as the old
>> >one.
>>
>> On an HP4 or 5 at least, you can set the pagecount to be anything you
>> want from the front panel if you know the magic combination

>Isn't that what I said? (without giving details)?

Well "it can be reset by an engineer" gives the distinct impression of
specialised knowledge, a higher degree and tools being necessary, not
just pressing several keys on the control panel.
Anonymous
August 15, 2005 2:02:48 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 14:02:47 UTC, Alan <none@none.com> wrote:

> >> >For example, on the LaserJet 4 it can be reset by an engineer - and that
> >> >is done if the engineer changes the board with the counter NVRAM on it.
> >> >He is supposed to set the new board to have the same count as the old
> >> >one.
> >>
> >> On an HP4 or 5 at least, you can set the pagecount to be anything you
> >> want from the front panel if you know the magic combination
>
> >Isn't that what I said? (without giving details)?
>
> Well "it can be reset by an engineer" gives the distinct impression of
> specialised knowledge, a higher degree and tools being necessary, not
> just pressing several keys on the control panel.

Specialised knowledge == service manual !!
Higher degree - do you mean a Master's degree?

--
Bob Eager
begin a new life...take up Extreme Ironing!
Anonymous
August 15, 2005 2:36:00 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 22:08:23 UTC, "zakezuke" <zakezuke_us@yahoo.com>
wrote:

> additional... what gets reset when you flip dipswitch 1 if not either
> battery backed up ram or nvram.

Dunno...it's years since I had the Apple LW!

--
Bob Eager
begin a new life...take up Extreme Ironing!
Anonymous
August 15, 2005 2:56:39 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 21:53:31 UTC, "zakezuke" <zakezuke_us@yahoo.com>
wrote:

> Well, the page count was non-volitile... plus the fact that appletalk
> was an option on the LW II, a feature that I would be surprised wasn't
> on the system board. While I didn't "say" the LW II used an NV ram,
> and I might have incorrectly assumed the LW II stored it's page count
> on the system board... i'm going to take a leap of faith here and say
> when the LW II did it's AARP probe and found a successful address... it
> stored it somewhere, somewhere in non-volitile memory on the system
> board as appletalk was a feature somewhat unique to the apple printers
> on the canon sx engine. This could be NVRAM or some form of externaly
> battery backed up ram. Appletalk devices typicaly used NVRAM. I don't
> have a board handy to see if there was a battery, so i'd be curious to
> know what was used to store nonvolitle data that was likely to change.

So would I.

Meanwhile, I did find a copy of the IInt manual. Here's an extract (from
page 41):

"Note: Because the LaserWriter IInt component that registers the options
can wear out with excessive use (several thousand changes), change the
options only when necessary."

Nothing about NVRAM but I'm sure there must have been something else.
Note that this is on the IInt; the IIntx didn't have the EEPROM
(probably it was straight battery backed NVRAM) because the manual says
that it didn't have the same restriction.

--
Bob Eager
begin a new life...take up Extreme Ironing!
August 15, 2005 5:41:06 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

> >But with respect to page counters.....several older and/or low end monochrome
> >laser printers don't have a counter.

> Really? My HP IIp had one as does the IIIp that now sits in a corner in
> case of emergencies.

I have to admit, I can't think of a single laser printer that didn't
have a counter somewhere. I have seen some trully oddball ones that
had a manual counter somewhere inside, but these were very very odd
beasts back when the HP LJ was young. The HP II series while popular
were not really the first by any means. The oldest laser I know of was
the LBP-10 and that is by name only. There were some earlier 70s
versions by xerox, but I know nothing at all about those, far too big
and heavy to store on my desk.
Anonymous
August 15, 2005 11:17:43 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

On Mon, 15 Aug 2005 00:02:03 UTC, "zakezuke" <zakezuke_us@yahoo.com>
wrote:

> >Dunno...it's years since I had the Apple LW!
>
> You seemed very clear on the subject when you said
>
> "The Apple LaserWriter II/IINT used an EEPROM - no battery needed. The
> downside was that it wore out after a few thousand writes, so was used
> only for rarely-changed information - not pagecounts!"
>
> An odd thing to say when you replied to my concern over swapping boards
> in an LW NT about the pagecount. It did clearly employ a form of
> non-volitile memory.

No, I was merely saying that it appeared to have *both*.

--
Bob Eager
begin a new life...take up Extreme Ironing!
August 15, 2005 12:37:40 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

In message <part1of1.1.baJ7j4CC1h8AXA@ue.ph>, Tony <?@?.?.invalid>
writes
>But with respect to page counters.....several older and/or low end monochrome
>laser printers don't have a counter.

Really? My HP IIp had one as does the IIIp that now sits in a corner in
case of emergencies.

--
Timothy
August 15, 2005 12:37:41 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

"me@privacy.net" <me@Privacy.Net> wrote:
>In message <part1of1.1.baJ7j4CC1h8AXA@ue.ph>, Tony <?@?.?.invalid>
>writes
>>But with respect to page counters.....several older and/or low end monochrome
>>laser printers don't have a counter.
>
>Really? My HP IIp had one as does the IIIp that now sits in a corner in
>case of emergencies.
>
>--
>Timothy

Timothy
Yes really.... several older OKI and Brother lasers do not count pages. So far
as I know all modern lasers do keep count.
Tony
August 15, 2005 2:26:42 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

"me@privacy.net" <me@Privacy.Net> wrote:
>In message <part1of1.1.baJ7j4CC1h8AXA@ue.ph>, Tony <?@?.?.invalid>
>writes
>>But with respect to page counters.....several older and/or low end monochrome
>>laser printers don't have a counter.
>
>Really? My HP IIp had one as does the IIIp that now sits in a corner in
>case of emergencies.
>
>--
>Timothy

Timothy
Oh by the way...I'd forgotten these.
HP LaserJet 4L,5L and 6L printers don't have any NVRAM available, so there is
no way for the printer to retain a page count once the printer is powered off.
These printers have a page counter that operates until the printer is powered
off. At power off the page count is reset to zero.
I guess you could argue that they do count pages but they suffer from medium
and long term memory loss <g>.
Yep, old printers but still around.
Tony
August 15, 2005 3:15:43 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

In message <1124095266.251723.207710@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
zakezuke <zakezuke_us@yahoo.com> writes
>> >But with respect to page counters.....several older and/or low end
>> >monochrome
>> >laser printers don't have a counter.
>
>> Really? My HP IIp had one as does the IIIp that now sits in a corner in
>> case of emergencies.
>
>I have to admit, I can't think of a single laser printer that didn't
>have a counter somewhere. I have seen some trully oddball ones that
>had a manual counter somewhere inside,

Strangely enough my colour photocopier/printer has both manual ones and
the system board ones. My black and white photocopier has a manual
counter only.


--
Timothy
August 16, 2005 3:14:40 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

> "Note: Because the LaserWriter IInt component that registers the options
> can wear out with excessive use (several thousand changes), change the
> options only when necessary."
>
> Nothing about NVRAM but I'm sure there must have been something else.
> Note that this is on the IInt; the IIntx didn't have the EEPROM
> (probably it was straight battery backed NVRAM) because the manual says
> that it didn't have the same restriction.

Righto... when I swapped out my system board in my laser printer (note
the generic because the particulars are beside the point)... there was
no way for me to know the page count because the system board was
kaput, and while it normally would tell me the page when I turned on
the printer... I turned that feature off. When I finally gave away
that printer, I had to say in all honesty I had no idea what the page
count was as I swapped out the system boards.

I could be incorrect in thinking that info was stored on the system
board, or I could be correct. It's generally a safe assumption on most
lasers. The mechnism that stores the information is beside the point
when in the case of a systemboard failure there is no real means of
telling what the page count is. If your lucky there is a log
somewhere that'll give you a ball park figure.. but generally speaking
unless the printer had any sort of service... that information is lost.

Anyhow there are rebuilt lasers who have a pagecount of zero. Perhaps
this was set to keep track of the new referbished pagecount, or perhaps
they replaced the system board and had no clue what the page count
was... very likely in the PC recycling world where you don't meet the
prior owners it's just surplus. While this may be contrary to the
written world of the service manual... reality is contrary to the
written word of the service manual as there is really no way to know
the page count on a system board that is fried. If using NVram or some
form of flashrom you "might" be able to pull it and put it in the new
one.... if your lucky, but in a real world situation it's perfectly
normal for that data to be gone.
Anonymous
August 16, 2005 1:46:02 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

Oh really?

I think the feeling is mutual.

Art

Bob Eager wrote:

> On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 09:42:35 UTC, Arthur Entlich
> <e-printerhelp@mvps.org> wrote:
>
>
>>I'd call this "extreme backpedaling" to go with the your extreme ironing.
>
>
> Your lack of comprehension is astounding. I give up.
>
Anonymous
August 16, 2005 2:04:26 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

You keep digging yourself further into your own hole.

Here and in a previous posting you admit how accessible the service
manual is; well out of the secret cloisters of HP and their official
techs, obviously making the reset procedure VERY accessible to the
general public, and therefore NO engineer is required, nor is there any
need for a board change or an internal reprogramming of the non-volatile
RAM.

THEREFORE, the original statement that the page count numbers being a
potentially unreliable benchmark of the use the printer has received
which you tried to refute with your statement about the need for
engineers and programming knowledge is indeed accurate and your
statement that is was not, is the bogus one, just as I pointed out.

You now seem to be refuting your own postings by stating that it is easy
to change the page count if you have the service manual, and that the
service manual is no longer in the control of HP and the technicians
they wish to have it.

I really don't know how much clearer the logic of my argument could be made.

Art


Bob Eager wrote:

> On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 14:02:47 UTC, Alan <none@none.com> wrote:
>
>
>>>>>For example, on the LaserJet 4 it can be reset by an engineer - and that
>>>>>is done if the engineer changes the board with the counter NVRAM on it.
>>>>>He is supposed to set the new board to have the same count as the old
>>>>>one.
>>>>
>>>>On an HP4 or 5 at least, you can set the pagecount to be anything you
>>>>want from the front panel if you know the magic combination
>>
>>>Isn't that what I said? (without giving details)?
>>
>>Well "it can be reset by an engineer" gives the distinct impression of
>>specialised knowledge, a higher degree and tools being necessary, not
>>just pressing several keys on the control panel.
>
>
> Specialised knowledge == service manual !!
> Higher degree - do you mean a Master's degree?
>
!