QUESTION pagecounts

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

I hear a lot the word "pagecount" is this something like the mileage on a
car? a number that stays there when powered off, when toner changed, etc?
does it only apply to certain printers? if so, would the hp lj 1100 be one
of them? and if so, would a 7000 pagecount be considered low, moderate or
high?

regards.

please remove spam if emailing me.
45 answers Last reply
More about question pagecounts
  1. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    Page counts are just what they say they are. The number of pages printed.
    I've not had any laser's that didn't give a page count and even my Canon
    inkjets give a page count. 7000 isn't even a case and a half of paper. I
    haven't had an HP 1100, but I'm sure it would give you that info from the
    configuration printout.
    --
    Ron

    "tiktak" <hikoryERASETHISPART@gmail.com> wrote in message
    news:X_WKe.13850$pX4.365356@weber.videotron.net...
    >I hear a lot the word "pagecount" is this something like the mileage on a
    >car? a number that stays there when powered off, when toner changed, etc?
    >does it only apply to certain printers? if so, would the hp lj 1100 be
    >one of them? and if so, would a 7000 pagecount be considered low, moderate
    >or high?
    >
    > regards.
    >
    > please remove spam if emailing me.
    >
    >
    >
  2. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    thank you.
    I just wasn't aware of what they are.

    so I was correct then, they are a count number of some sort, showing up on
    some display when you turn on the printer, and this number cannot be erased
    modified etc. everytime a page prints, it increases... stored on some sort
    of internal memory, so its not erased while printer is off line. did I get
    it right pretty much?

    thanks again.


    "drc023" <d+r+c+0+2+3@sbcXXXglobalYYY.ZZZnet> wrote in message
    news:FSXKe.123$DV3.70@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com...
    > Page counts are just what they say they are. The number of pages printed.
    > I've not had any laser's that didn't give a page count and even my Canon
    > inkjets give a page count. 7000 isn't even a case and a half of paper. I
    > haven't had an HP 1100, but I'm sure it would give you that info from the
    > configuration printout.
    > --
    > Ron
    >
    > "tiktak" <hikoryERASETHISPART@gmail.com> wrote in message
    > news:X_WKe.13850$pX4.365356@weber.videotron.net...
    >>I hear a lot the word "pagecount" is this something like the mileage on a
    >>car? a number that stays there when powered off, when toner changed, etc?
    >>does it only apply to certain printers? if so, would the hp lj 1100 be
    >>one of them? and if so, would a 7000 pagecount be considered low,
    >>moderate or high?
    >>
    >> regards.
    >>
    >> please remove spam if emailing me.
  3. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    On Fri, 12 Aug 2005 07:18:18 UTC, "tiktak"
    <hikoryERASETHISPART@gmail.com> wrote:

    > so I was correct then, they are a count number of some sort, showing up on
    > some display when you turn on the printer, and this number cannot be erased
    > modified etc. everytime a page prints, it increases... stored on some sort
    > of internal memory, so its not erased while printer is off line. did I get
    > it right pretty much?

    Pretty much. Often they don't get displayed on startup, but you can ask
    the printer to print the pagecount. (on my HP LJ4+, it's on the test
    page).

    Some printer/scanner combinations will give two counts - scans and
    prints.

    The page count is useful for seeing how long consumables last, seeing
    when a service is due, and to see how much a used printer is worth!
    --
    Bob Eager
    begin a new life...take up Extreme Ironing!
  4. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    "Bob Eager" <rde42@spamcop.net> wrote in message
    news:176uZD2KcidF-pn2-IZJMPIVnvSyQ@rikki.tavi.co.uk...
    > On Fri, 12 Aug 2005 07:18:18 UTC, "tiktak"
    > <hikoryERASETHISPART@gmail.com> wrote:
    >
    >> so I was correct then, they are a count number of some sort, showing up
    >> on
    >> some display when you turn on the printer, and this number cannot be
    >> erased
    >> modified etc. everytime a page prints, it increases... stored on some
    >> sort
    >> of internal memory, so its not erased while printer is off line. did I
    >> get
    >> it right pretty much?
    >
    > Pretty much. Often they don't get displayed on startup, but you can ask
    > the printer to print the pagecount. (on my HP LJ4+, it's on the test
    > page).
    >
    > Some printer/scanner combinations will give two counts - scans and
    > prints.
    >
    > The page count is useful for seeing how long consumables last, seeing
    > when a service is due, and to see how much a used printer is worth!
    > --
    > Bob Eager

    good.
    thank you.

    yes it definitely is useful. right now, to me the use of it is much more in
    the sense of the use of a car mileage when you buy it. but I understand the
    other uses as well.

    regards.
  5. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    >I See. so it can be faked.
    >like everything else today I suppose!
    >how do I tell or suspect whether its been faked? I think I could tell on a
    >car...but a printer?

    It's harder to tell on a printer, esp since it's part of the normal
    operation to reset the page count when you replace key parts... for
    example on an inkjet it's common to replace the waste bin aka the
    diaper.

    7000 on a lj1100 for example (Canon LBP-22X print engine IIRC)... is
    equal to two large toner replacements, or three small toner
    replacements. It also represents 14 packs of paper.

    To best judge if this is alot or a little is to look at the lifespan of
    other parts in the printer such as the fuser, the part that heats the
    paper and affixes the toner to it. I know it's rg5-4589-000 but I
    have no clue what life is on that part. A fuser's life can be anywhere
    from the 10,000 range to the 100,000 range depending on the printer and
    model... though I've never actually replaced one in my life. Given
    it's a $70-$120 part i'm sure it's life is lowish esp since the fuser
    was the foil type and not a tough teflon roll. I would guess 10,000p
    is a good number to check the condition of the rollers, if good check
    again at 20,000p.
  6. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    On Fri, 12 Aug 2005 07:31:00 UTC, "tiktak"
    <hikoryERASETHISPART@gmail.com> wrote:

    > yes it definitely is useful. right now, to me the use of it is much more in
    > the sense of the use of a car mileage when you buy it. but I understand the
    > other uses as well.

    Just as with a car mileage, it can sometimes be faked...!

    I find it useful to know how long a toner cartridge has lasted, and how
    long to go. I have a sticker inside the lid where I record toner
    changes...

    --
    Bob Eager
    begin a new life...take up Extreme Ironing!
  7. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    "Bob Eager" <rde42@spamcop.net> wrote in message
    news:176uZD2KcidF-pn2-GCbK3uCbBwrk@rikki.tavi.co.uk...
    > On Fri, 12 Aug 2005 07:31:00 UTC, "tiktak"
    > <hikoryERASETHISPART@gmail.com> wrote:
    >
    >> yes it definitely is useful. right now, to me the use of it is much more
    >> in
    >> the sense of the use of a car mileage when you buy it. but I understand
    >> the
    >> other uses as well.
    >
    > Just as with a car mileage, it can sometimes be faked...!
    >
    > I find it useful to know how long a toner cartridge has lasted, and how
    > long to go. I have a sticker inside the lid where I record toner
    > changes...

    I See. so it can be faked.
    like everything else today I suppose!

    how do I tell or suspect whether its been faked? I think I could tell on a
    car...but a printer?
  8. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    On Fri, 12 Aug 2005 08:25:35 UTC, "tiktak"
    <hikoryERASETHISPART@gmail.com> wrote:

    > > Just as with a car mileage, it can sometimes be faked...!
    > >
    > > I find it useful to know how long a toner cartridge has lasted, and how
    > > long to go. I have a sticker inside the lid where I record toner
    > > changes...
    >
    > I See. so it can be faked.
    > like everything else today I suppose!
    >
    > how do I tell or suspect whether its been faked? I think I could tell on a
    > car...but a printer?

    General wear and tear...but needs experience!
    --
    Bob Eager
    begin a new life...take up Extreme Ironing!
  9. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    In message <X_WKe.13850$pX4.365356@weber.videotron.net>, tiktak
    <hikoryERASETHISPART@gmail.com> writes
    >I hear a lot the word "pagecount" is this something like the mileage on a
    >car? a number that stays there when powered off, when toner changed, etc?
    >does it only apply to certain printers? if so, would the hp lj 1100 be one
    >of them? and if so, would a 7000 pagecount be considered low, moderate or
    >high?
    >
    I think this is a cheap and cheerful laser but even so 7000 isnt much, I
    would guess its probably on its third toner cartridge.

    --
    Timothy
  10. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    On Fri, 12 Aug 2005 14:35:06 UTC, "zakezuke" <zakezuke_us@yahoo.com>
    wrote:

    > >I See. so it can be faked.
    > >like everything else today I suppose!
    > >how do I tell or suspect whether its been faked? I think I could tell on a
    > >car...but a printer?
    >
    > It's harder to tell on a printer, esp since it's part of the normal
    > operation to reset the page count when you replace key parts... for
    > example on an inkjet it's common to replace the waste bin aka the
    > diaper.

    Not true on the average laser printer; it's supposed to be
    non-resettable.

    For example, on the LaserJet 4 it can be reset by an engineer - and that
    is done if the engineer changes the board with the counter NVRAM on it.
    He is supposed to set the new board to have the same count as the old
    one.

    --
    Bob Eager
    begin a new life...take up Extreme Ironing!
  11. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    "tiktak" <hikoryERASETHISPART@gmail.com> wrote:
    >I hear a lot the word "pagecount" is this something like the mileage on a
    >car? a number that stays there when powered off, when toner changed, etc?
    >does it only apply to certain printers? if so, would the hp lj 1100 be one
    >of them? and if so, would a 7000 pagecount be considered low, moderate or
    >high?
    >
    >regards.
    >
    >please remove spam if emailing me.

    7000 pages is quite low, I have seen a LJ1100 with nearly 100,000 pages but
    that is rare.
    If the print quality is good and it does not exhibit any feeding problems
    (multiple feed, failing to feed or skewed feed) then it is probably a good
    printer. They are very reliable.
    The only way to reset the page count on a LJ1100 is to replace the main logic
    board so far as I know.
    Tony
  12. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    > Isn't that what I said? (without giving details)?

    Actually you said "on the LaserJet 4 it can be reset by an engineer -
    and that
    is done if the engineer changes the board with the counter NVRAM on
    it".

    >From experence i've met a few LJ4s that have been rebult where the
    rebuilder has reset the counter to zero after replacing all the rollers
    and some key parts... and explained that after a major rebuild it was a
    good idea to set it to zero so he and others know how many prints are
    on the new parts. I imagine it would be unscrupulous if they had set
    it to a value under that zero... and sold them as rebuilt.
  13. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    > It's completely at variance with the instructions in the service manual.
    > A proper maintenance log will give the same information. What is lost
    > with your engineer's method is the life of the parts that are not
    > replaced...!

    You assume that the "engineer" in question has the offical service
    manual. I wouldn't call them "engineers" my self but rather mechanics.


    I have seen rebuilt HP printers... or ones that have gone through major
    service get their counters reset. Some cases this is logged... honest
    joes who are depending on the printer's counter to see how much has
    been printied out of their shop. Is this in varanace with the offical
    instructions? Very bloody likely... but never the less this is done
    esp in cases where service is under warranty for a specific number of
    pages. Other cases this is not logged.

    Not to speak of average joe users who encounter a problem on their
    printer that says "need service now" who rather than getting service
    will just reset the counters so the printer thinks it's new and
    continue printing till the next time.

    A good rule of thumb... always bet on stupid... or rather always bet on
    someone doing things their own way in total varanace with the offical
    instructions.
  14. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    On Sat, 13 Aug 2005 20:02:43 UTC, "zakezuke" <zakezuke_us@yahoo.com>
    wrote:

    > >From experence i've met a few LJ4s that have been rebult where the
    > rebuilder has reset the counter to zero after replacing all the rollers
    > and some key parts... and explained that after a major rebuild it was a
    > good idea to set it to zero so he and others know how many prints are
    > on the new parts. I imagine it would be unscrupulous if they had set
    > it to a value under that zero... and sold them as rebuilt.

    It's completely at variance with the instructions in the service manual.
    A proper maintenance log will give the same information. What is lost
    with your engineer's method is the life of the parts that are not
    replaced...!

    --
    Bob Eager
    begin a new life...take up Extreme Ironing!
  15. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    "zakezuke" <zakezuke_us@yahoo.com> wrote:
    >> It's completely at variance with the instructions in the service manual.
    >> A proper maintenance log will give the same information. What is lost
    >> with your engineer's method is the life of the parts that are not
    >> replaced...!
    >
    >You assume that the "engineer" in question has the offical service
    >manual. I wouldn't call them "engineers" my self but rather mechanics.
    >
    Would you compromise and call them technicians? They cannot do their job well
    without a good knowledge of several operating systems, networking and of course
    the eccentricities of badly written drivers as well as a thorough knowledge of
    maybe several dozen different printers. Just a thought.
    But with respect to page counters.....several older and/or low end monochrome
    laser printers don't have a counter. Some have one counter that may or may not
    be resettable without replacing a board. And some have two or more counters
    related to total pages printed and pages since the last maintenance kit was
    fitted, toner/drum life etc. Colour lasers on the other hand may have more than
    a dozen counters all of which are often resettable if you have the codes.
    Clearly a technician has a responsibility to reset counters appropriately and
    whilst I am sure there are some that don't it really is not in their interest
    to artificially reduce page counts (it may be in their interest to increase
    them if they are unscrupulous!).
    Bit of a moot point really....The most important counter is total page count
    since "birth" since this is a measure of the printers overall usage hence the
    requirement to enter this count into the memory of the printer if the
    appropriate electronics are replaced, unfortunately this is not always possible
    if the original page count cannot retreived after an electronic failure, hence
    the advisability of the user to keep a log especially with high throughput
    printers.
    Tony

    <snip>
  16. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    On 12 Aug 2005 15:29:41 GMT, "Bob Eager" <rde42@spamcop.net> wrote:

    >Not true on the average laser printer; it's supposed to be
    >non-resettable.
    >
    >For example, on the LaserJet 4 it can be reset by an engineer - and that
    >is done if the engineer changes the board with the counter NVRAM on it.
    >He is supposed to set the new board to have the same count as the old
    >one.

    On an HP4 or 5 at least, you can set the pagecount to be anything you
    want from the front panel if you know the magic combination of
    keypresses to enter "service mode". It's in the service manual, which
    you can find at http://www.fixyourownprinter.com/reference/manuals.
    I don't think this is a secret from anyone unscrupulous enough to want
    to do it, so be aware it's no guarantee.
  17. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    On Sat, 13 Aug 2005 17:38:39 UTC, Alan <none@none.com> wrote:

    > On 12 Aug 2005 15:29:41 GMT, "Bob Eager" <rde42@spamcop.net> wrote:
    >
    > >Not true on the average laser printer; it's supposed to be
    > >non-resettable.
    > >
    > >For example, on the LaserJet 4 it can be reset by an engineer - and that
    > >is done if the engineer changes the board with the counter NVRAM on it.
    > >He is supposed to set the new board to have the same count as the old
    > >one.
    >
    > On an HP4 or 5 at least, you can set the pagecount to be anything you
    > want from the front panel if you know the magic combination of
    > keypresses to enter "service mode". It's in the service manual, which
    > you can find at http://www.fixyourownprinter.com/reference/manuals.
    > I don't think this is a secret from anyone unscrupulous enough to want
    > to do it, so be aware it's no guarantee.

    Isn't that what I said? (without giving details)?
    --
    Bob Eager
    begin a new life...take up Extreme Ironing!
  18. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    Actually, no, it's not what you stated at all.

    You said: engineer required, only can be done during board exchange

    He said: User accessible with service code, done by front panel presses.

    That's a bit like equating hiring a mechanic to replace a faulty
    transmission so your car will go, with turning the correct ignition key
    on your car to start it and drive away.

    Art

    Bob Eager wrote:

    > On Sat, 13 Aug 2005 17:38:39 UTC, Alan <none@none.com> wrote:
    >
    >
    >>On 12 Aug 2005 15:29:41 GMT, "Bob Eager" <rde42@spamcop.net> wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >>>Not true on the average laser printer; it's supposed to be
    >>>non-resettable.
    >>>
    >>>For example, on the LaserJet 4 it can be reset by an engineer - and that
    >>>is done if the engineer changes the board with the counter NVRAM on it.
    >>>He is supposed to set the new board to have the same count as the old
    >>>one.
    >>
    >>On an HP4 or 5 at least, you can set the pagecount to be anything you
    >>want from the front panel if you know the magic combination of
    >>keypresses to enter "service mode". It's in the service manual, which
    >>you can find at http://www.fixyourownprinter.com/reference/manuals.
    >>I don't think this is a secret from anyone unscrupulous enough to want
    >>to do it, so be aware it's no guarantee.
    >
    >
    > Isn't that what I said? (without giving details)?
  19. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    On Sat, 13 Aug 2005 21:39:56 UTC, Arthur Entlich
    <e-printerhelp@mvps.org> top posted:

    > Actually, no, it's not what you stated at all.
    >
    > You said: engineer required, only can be done during board exchange

    No, I didn't. Here, cut and pasted from my post:

    "For example, on the LaserJet 4 it can be reset by an engineer - and
    that
    is done if the engineer changes the board with the counter NVRAM on it.
    "

    At no point did I say "engineer required". I just said it can be reset
    by an engineer. As long as one has the information in the service
    manual, anyone CAN do it.

    And I did not say "only can be done during board exchange". I said that
    the value is reset by the engineer when the board is changed - that is
    to carry over the value from the old board to the new, so that the page
    count is preserved.

    > He said: User accessible with service code, done by front panel presses.

    Yes, it is done with front panel presses. I didn't mention the precise
    mechanism, that's all. It's usually only done by an engineer, of course
    - or a dishonest user - or an honest user changing the formatter board.

    --
    Bob Eager
    begin a new life...take up Extreme Ironing!
  20. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    > Your lack of comprehension is astounding. I give up.

    His comprehension is perfectly fine. You see someone like me who
    doesn't actually know the button presses to the LJ 4 reading ""Not true
    on the average laser printer; it's supposed to be non-resettable" and
    "that is done if the engineer changes the board with the counter NVRAM
    on it" is going to assume you mean a difficult task, like yanking off
    the NVRAM chip... and either taking it to a machine that can reprogram
    the NVRAM or taking the time cutting the battery, reconnecting the
    trace and popping it back in the printer so to convenience the printer
    the NVRAM needs to be reset and ask for values to put in it. Having to
    retrofit batteries on NVRAM chips in a pinch I can tell you for a fact
    dealing with these things are a huge pain in the tookus. I'm sure this
    is in total varanace of any offical procedure, but what can you do that
    doesn't involve ordering parts and waiting.

    I wonder though if a board is bad or if a printer is not printing how
    do you get these numbers to transfer to a new board without extracting
    the NVRAM chip, and if you can extract it and it's good why not just
    use it in the new board rather than deal with manual entry. Perhaps
    my lack of comprehension is astounding as well... but i'm seeing the LJ
    4 as being just old enough for the batteries on the NVRAM chips to
    start to fail.
  21. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    > Well, of course, you can't. But the user usually has a good
    > approximation to the number. I always record the count when I change the
    > toner cartridge, for example.

    I don't honestly know why some rebuilt printers are reset to zero, only
    that i've met many, as well as some shops who reset the page count to
    make life easier for them doing maintance... as in reset to zero as
    soon as the part with the longest duty cycle is replaced. I also know
    that many go through PC recycling... as in they are dropped off without
    their histories. I gotta say under that scenero... a very common
    one... there is no way to establish the history, not to speak of users
    who are not so attentive as your self. Rule of thumb... always bet on
    lazy.

    > I don't know offhand what kind of NVRAM the formatter board uses (I can
    > go and look at a spare board if you want to know). But I've seen 12 year
    > old printers that have never had that board replaced or serviced; I
    > suspect that any battery change is supposed to mean an exchange board.

    I honestly don't know if the LJ 4 has their NVRAM chip soldered on or
    not. The batteries on them are not officaly end user replaceable..
    they are embeaded somewhere between the dram and a hard plastic shell.
    The easy way to deal with failed batteries on NVRAM is to get another
    chip. The hard way is to scrape away with an exacto knife and trace
    out where the battery meets the chip and find the pads that attach to
    the dram. You go the hard way if the equipment in question won't
    operate without valid data in the NVRAM and can't do without it for a
    mailorder part. I've never seen the procedure in any service manual
    but I have met many batteries attached to the back of NVRAM chips with
    velcro and thought "cool, won't have to touch this till 2150". While I
    don't know the particulars of the LJ 4 nor what type of NVRAM is
    used... in general the useful lifespan is 10 to 20 years. You can't
    really change the battery, you can only hope to disconnect the old one
    and jerry-rig on a new one. Unless there are other forms of NV that
    i'm not aware of... it's just ram with a battery backup that becomes
    just as volitile as ordinary ram when the supply of power gives out.

    I've only had to swap out a board for my stylewriter II NT once... and
    as I disabled the "print page count on startup" I had no clue what the
    pagecount was. Come to think about it... I had no idea how to set the
    pagecount. Not that I couldn't find out... I had no idea what the
    pagecount was. When I gave away the printer... the next chap was
    interested in the page count, but I had to say no idea... blew a board,
    diabled hard copy upon startup. They were more interested in my
    knowelege of obscure propriority apple commands to do this than the
    pagecount, either that or testing my honesty... either way what could I
    do? This is not uncommon for anyone who needed a main board
    replacement. Can't get the page count board broken.
  22. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    > > Well "it can be reset by an engineer" gives the distinct impression of
    > > specialised knowledge, a higher degree and tools being necessary, not
    > > just pressing several keys on the control panel.

    > Specialised knowledge == service manual !!
    > Higher degree - do you mean a Master's degree?

    Higher than high-school, hince the name higher degree. Generally
    speaking people mean BA or above when saying higher degree.

    Generally speaking engineers design and build... technicians and
    mechanics repair and maintain. I know there are exceptions... like an
    engineer on a train (engine operator), custodial engineers, power plant
    operators and engineers (engine operator). I would never call a
    person who's only qualifications in printers is reading the service
    manual an engineer. Service manuals are far too limited and don't
    really list anything that requires specalized knowledge but rather list
    button presses and large serviceable parts that can be replaced.
    Printer techs don't typicaly don't even have repair manuals.

    Resetting the pagecount doesn't require a degree or knowelege of
    electronic nor mechanical engineering, nor a university education.
    They hardly require specalized knowelge of printers. They are for
    printer technicians so someone not very well paid could make a
    judgement whether to replace a part or send to the factory.
  23. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    > I'm come across those elsewhere - sometimes with a clock chip too (the
    > DS12887 is a case in point; used on some IBM PS/2 models).

    Could be... can't say I ever remember seeing a traditional battery on a
    PS/2. Can't think of why you'd need one really except for the clock...
    unless the data for MCA cards was stored on the NVRAM and not the HD.
    I don't know of any PS/2s still in service except a few oddball ones
    that have 3270 terminal adapters onboard. If this data is on the
    NVRAM, well lots of luck to them looking for the reference disk or
    whatever IBM called the associated data file required to configure MCA
    cards. IBM at one point had all this data on FTP... but as they
    ditched lifetime free tech support I imagine they probally ditched this
    data as well.

    Frankly I know jack about the PS/2 even though i'm quoted on somesite
    as having contibuted some useful information on a website somewhere....
    hell if I know anything useful about the PS/2.

    > > Unless there are other forms of NV that
    > > i'm not aware of... it's just ram with a battery backup that becomes
    > > just as volitile as ordinary ram when the supply of power gives out.

    > The Apple LaserWriter II/IINT used an EEPROM - no battery needed. The
    > downside was that it wore out after a few thousand writes, so was used
    > only for rarely-changed information - not pagecounts!

    Good thing I didn't say it used NVRAM then i'd feel foolish. But on
    the other hand I know for a fact that the HP LJ II error code 68 "NVRAM
    ERROR". But I honestly don't know how the canon sx based printers were
    different... as in I wouldn't know if the NVram that a HP LJ II would
    complain about was on the main system board or part of the print
    engine.

    Or you could be telling me that the page count on the LW NT was not
    stored on the system board, in which case I guess i'm a dumb ass for
    even thinking I lost that information when I changed system boards.
    The fact that the page printed on start up had a big bold friendly
    postscript P on it along with lots of data like the printers name, in
    my case Oscar and the page count lead me to believe that this was
    system board specific information. But given I've never read a service
    manual for these printers, nor a parts manual nor a repair manual I
    have no idea where the NVram was on the LJ II nor if the LW NT would
    have the same thing.

    I can say with all honesty I have no idea what method the LW NT used to
    keep track of it's page count.

    But needless to say even if I didn't loose this information... the
    NVRAM in a old printers may have dead batteries, and no possible way to
    get a real page count. A very real situation even if I have no idea
    where this data was stored on a LW NT. A legit reason for the counter
    to be wrong are cases there the system board failed and the person
    replacing it has no clue what the pagecount is.
  24. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    I'd call this "extreme backpedaling" to go with the your extreme ironing.

    Let's look at the WHOLE posting, shall we?

    On Fri, 12 Aug 2005 14:35:06 UTC, "zakezuke" <zakezuke_us@yahoo.com>
    wrote:


    >>> >I See. so it can be faked.
    >>> >like everything else today I suppose!
    >>> >how do I tell or suspect whether its been faked? I think I could
    tell on a
    >>> >car...but a printer?
    >
    >>
    >> It's harder to tell on a printer, esp since it's part of the normal
    >> operation to reset the page count when you replace key parts... for
    >> example on an inkjet it's common to replace the waste bin aka the
    >> diaper.


    Not true on the average laser printer; it's supposed to be
    non-resettable.

    For example, on the LaserJet 4 it can be reset by an engineer - and that
    is done if the engineer changes the board with the counter NVRAM on it.
    He is supposed to set the new board to have the same count as the old
    one.

    -- Bob Eager begin a new life...take up Extreme Ironing!


    ==============
    See how you try to refute the ease in "faking" or resetting page count?
    See how you state "Not true on the average laser printer; it's
    supposed to be non-resettable."

    You and the folks in Orwell's 1984 from the Ministry of Truth would get
    along well. Too bad posts leave a history behind.

    This isn't a big issue, but it really annoys me when someone, even after
    being caught giving out misleading information tries to defend
    themselves through selective quoting.

    It really would have been much easier (and more correct) to just admit
    you made an error, especially after admonishing someone else who
    actually pretty much had it correct.

    Art

    Bob Eager wrote:

    > On Sat, 13 Aug 2005 21:39:56 UTC, Arthur Entlich
    > <e-printerhelp@mvps.org> top posted:
    >
    >
    >>Actually, no, it's not what you stated at all.
    >>
    >>You said: engineer required, only can be done during board exchange
    >
    >
    > No, I didn't. Here, cut and pasted from my post:
    >
    > "For example, on the LaserJet 4 it can be reset by an engineer - and
    > that
    > is done if the engineer changes the board with the counter NVRAM on it.
    > "
    >
    > At no point did I say "engineer required". I just said it can be reset
    > by an engineer. As long as one has the information in the service
    > manual, anyone CAN do it.
    >
    > And I did not say "only can be done during board exchange". I said that
    > the value is reset by the engineer when the board is changed - that is
    > to carry over the value from the old board to the new, so that the page
    > count is preserved.
    >
    >
    >>He said: User accessible with service code, done by front panel presses.
    >
    >
    > Yes, it is done with front panel presses. I didn't mention the precise
    > mechanism, that's all. It's usually only done by an engineer, of course
    > - or a dishonest user - or an honest user changing the formatter board.
    >
  25. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 09:42:35 UTC, Arthur Entlich
    <e-printerhelp@mvps.org> wrote:

    > I'd call this "extreme backpedaling" to go with the your extreme ironing.

    Your lack of comprehension is astounding. I give up.

    --
    Bob Eager
    begin a new life...take up Extreme Ironing!
  26. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 12:37:55 UTC, "zakezuke" <zakezuke_us@yahoo.com>
    wrote:

    > > Your lack of comprehension is astounding. I give up.
    >
    > His comprehension is perfectly fine. You see someone like me who
    > doesn't actually know the button presses to the LJ 4 reading ""Not true
    > on the average laser printer; it's supposed to be non-resettable" and

    Note the word "supposed". I know it's resettable, you know it's
    resettable, but the user isn't *supposed* to do it. With the number of
    bootleg copies of the service manual around, it's common knowledge how
    to do it, and it's pointless trying to keep it a secret!

    > "that is done if the engineer changes the board with the counter NVRAM
    > on it" is going to assume you mean a difficult task, like yanking off
    > the NVRAM chip

    No, just that if the engineer does a board change, the number in the new
    board is set to that in the old one. A simple task.

    > I wonder though if a board is bad or if a printer is not printing how
    > do you get these numbers to transfer to a new board without extracting
    > the NVRAM chip, and if you can extract it and it's good why not just
    > use it in the new board rather than deal with manual entry.

    Well, of course, you can't. But the user usually has a good
    approximation to the number. I always record the count when I change the
    toner cartridge, for example.

    I don't know offhand what kind of NVRAM the formatter board uses (I can
    go and look at a spare board if you want to know). But I've seen 12 year
    old printers that have never had that board replaced or serviced; I
    suspect that any battery change is supposed to mean an exchange board.

    --
    Bob Eager
    begin a new life...take up Extreme Ironing!
  27. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 14:16:32 UTC, "zakezuke" <zakezuke_us@yahoo.com>
    wrote:

    > > I don't know offhand what kind of NVRAM the formatter board uses (I can
    > > go and look at a spare board if you want to know). But I've seen 12 year
    > > old printers that have never had that board replaced or serviced; I
    > > suspect that any battery change is supposed to mean an exchange board.
    >
    > I honestly don't know if the LJ 4 has their NVRAM chip soldered on or
    > not. The batteries on them are not officaly end user replaceable..
    > they are embeaded somewhere between the dram and a hard plastic shell.

    I'm come across those elsewhere - sometimes with a clock chip too (the
    DS12887 is a case in point; used on some IBM PS/2 models).

    > While I
    > don't know the particulars of the LJ 4 nor what type of NVRAM is
    > used... in general the useful lifespan is 10 to 20 years.

    I've found 12887s tend to fail after about 10 years, but it's certainly
    in that ball park for most of them, I guess.

    > Unless there are other forms of NV that
    > i'm not aware of... it's just ram with a battery backup that becomes
    > just as volitile as ordinary ram when the supply of power gives out.

    The Apple LaserWriter II/IINT used an EEPROM - no battery needed. The
    downside was that it wore out after a few thousand writes, so was used
    only for rarely-changed information - not pagecounts!

    --
    Bob Eager
    begin a new life...take up Extreme Ironing!
  28. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    > No, I'm sure it was store dsomwhere. It just wasn't in the EEPROM that
    > contained the user configuration. I'm quoting from the user manual when
    > I say that it was EEPROM and had a limited life. There were even special
    > PostScript programs that avoided updating it if the value was the same
    > already - to save a 'cycle'.

    > Possibly the LW II used an NVRAM chip with only a few bytes of storage,
    > hence the EEPROM. Dunno.

    Well, the page count was non-volitile... plus the fact that appletalk
    was an option on the LW II, a feature that I would be surprised wasn't
    on the system board. While I didn't "say" the LW II used an NV ram,
    and I might have incorrectly assumed the LW II stored it's page count
    on the system board... i'm going to take a leap of faith here and say
    when the LW II did it's AARP probe and found a successful address... it
    stored it somewhere, somewhere in non-volitile memory on the system
    board as appletalk was a feature somewhat unique to the apple printers
    on the canon sx engine. This could be NVRAM or some form of externaly
    battery backed up ram. Appletalk devices typicaly used NVRAM. I don't
    have a board handy to see if there was a battery, so i'd be curious to
    know what was used to store nonvolitle data that was likely to change.
  29. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 14:36:10 UTC, "zakezuke" <zakezuke_us@yahoo.com>
    wrote:

    > > Higher degree - do you mean a Master's degree?
    >
    > Higher than high-school, hince the name higher degree. Generally
    > speaking people mean BA or above when saying higher degree.

    Not in the UK, in my experience. There's 'degree' (BA, BSc, BEng) and
    there's 'higher degree' (MSc, MA, MEng, Ph.D, DPhil). But then I'm
    probably picky because I'm in the education area! So, just mentioned for
    interest!

    > Generally speaking engineers design and build... technicians and
    > mechanics repair and maintain.

    I wholeheartedly agree. Unfortunately the word is often used for
    'technician' (e.g. by HP themselves) and I used that definition (I
    should not have). The term 'engineer' is much misused, and real
    engineers do not enjoy the status that they should.

    (I speak as a qualified engineer!)

    --
    Bob Eager
    begin a new life...take up Extreme Ironing!
  30. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    additional... what gets reset when you flip dipswitch 1 if not either
    battery backed up ram or nvram.
  31. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 15:03:11 UTC, "zakezuke" <zakezuke_us@yahoo.com>
    wrote:

    > > I'm come across those elsewhere - sometimes with a clock chip too (the
    > > DS12887 is a case in point; used on some IBM PS/2 models).
    >
    > Could be... can't say I ever remember seeing a traditional battery on a
    > PS/2. Can't think of why you'd need one really except for the clock...
    > unless the data for MCA cards was stored on the NVRAM and not the HD.

    The NVRAM was for the clock (year digits) and also for the MCA
    configuration data. Stored in NVRAM in all but the later models (in fact
    I think it was in NVRAM even then).

    > cards. IBM at one point had all this data on FTP... but as they
    > ditched lifetime free tech support I imagine they probally ditched this
    > data as well.

    It's all still on FTP, but without an index. There are plenrty of
    mirrors though.

    > Or you could be telling me that the page count on the LW NT was not
    > stored on the system board, in which case I guess i'm a dumb ass for
    > even thinking I lost that information when I changed system boards.

    No, I'm sure it was store dsomwhere. It just wasn't in the EEPROM that
    contained the user configuration. I'm quoting from the user manual when
    I say that it was EEPROM and had a limited life. There were even special
    PostScript programs that avoided updating it if the value was the same
    already - to save a 'cycle'.

    Possibly the LW II used an NVRAM chip with only a few bytes of storage,
    hence the EEPROM. Dunno.
    --
    Bob Eager
    begin a new life...take up Extreme Ironing!
  32. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    >Dunno...it's years since I had the Apple LW!

    You seemed very clear on the subject when you said

    "The Apple LaserWriter II/IINT used an EEPROM - no battery needed. The
    downside was that it wore out after a few thousand writes, so was used
    only for rarely-changed information - not pagecounts!"

    An odd thing to say when you replied to my concern over swapping boards
    in an LW NT about the pagecount. It did clearly employ a form of
    non-volitile memory. The LJ II used NVRAM to store info like
    pagecounts. It could be this data was stored as part of the Canon SX
    engine seperate from the system board. But that doesn't take into
    account data as part of the appletalk protocal, which typicaly used
    NVram. I'd wager a battery was required, but a service manual which
    tends to speak to the lowest common denominator, if it said "no battery
    is required" might mean "no external battery replacement is nessicary
    as the lifespand on the NVram is 10+ years".

    But since you have a manual... I would suspect that if you would look
    up the fuction of dipswitch one it would tell you want it resets.

    I'm not going to say what the LW NT used because I don't have any idea.
    I know it kept track of pagecounts and being appletalk stored the last
    useable address two things that would be annoying to put in an EEprom.
    There was also trivial little things like baud rate for the serial
    ports, printer name, basic printer settings which were not changed all
    that offen that could have been stored in an EEprom I imagine... but
    really it's a total mystery to me why being up EEproms when talking
    about pagecounts. Seems odd and I have no idea what your point was.
  33. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    On 13 Aug 2005 18:31:56 GMT, "Bob Eager" <rde42@spamcop.net> wrote:

    >On Sat, 13 Aug 2005 17:38:39 UTC, Alan <none@none.com> wrote:
    >
    >> >For example, on the LaserJet 4 it can be reset by an engineer - and that
    >> >is done if the engineer changes the board with the counter NVRAM on it.
    >> >He is supposed to set the new board to have the same count as the old
    >> >one.
    >>
    >> On an HP4 or 5 at least, you can set the pagecount to be anything you
    >> want from the front panel if you know the magic combination

    >Isn't that what I said? (without giving details)?

    Well "it can be reset by an engineer" gives the distinct impression of
    specialised knowledge, a higher degree and tools being necessary, not
    just pressing several keys on the control panel.
  34. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 14:02:47 UTC, Alan <none@none.com> wrote:

    > >> >For example, on the LaserJet 4 it can be reset by an engineer - and that
    > >> >is done if the engineer changes the board with the counter NVRAM on it.
    > >> >He is supposed to set the new board to have the same count as the old
    > >> >one.
    > >>
    > >> On an HP4 or 5 at least, you can set the pagecount to be anything you
    > >> want from the front panel if you know the magic combination
    >
    > >Isn't that what I said? (without giving details)?
    >
    > Well "it can be reset by an engineer" gives the distinct impression of
    > specialised knowledge, a higher degree and tools being necessary, not
    > just pressing several keys on the control panel.

    Specialised knowledge == service manual !!
    Higher degree - do you mean a Master's degree?

    --
    Bob Eager
    begin a new life...take up Extreme Ironing!
  35. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 22:08:23 UTC, "zakezuke" <zakezuke_us@yahoo.com>
    wrote:

    > additional... what gets reset when you flip dipswitch 1 if not either
    > battery backed up ram or nvram.

    Dunno...it's years since I had the Apple LW!

    --
    Bob Eager
    begin a new life...take up Extreme Ironing!
  36. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 21:53:31 UTC, "zakezuke" <zakezuke_us@yahoo.com>
    wrote:

    > Well, the page count was non-volitile... plus the fact that appletalk
    > was an option on the LW II, a feature that I would be surprised wasn't
    > on the system board. While I didn't "say" the LW II used an NV ram,
    > and I might have incorrectly assumed the LW II stored it's page count
    > on the system board... i'm going to take a leap of faith here and say
    > when the LW II did it's AARP probe and found a successful address... it
    > stored it somewhere, somewhere in non-volitile memory on the system
    > board as appletalk was a feature somewhat unique to the apple printers
    > on the canon sx engine. This could be NVRAM or some form of externaly
    > battery backed up ram. Appletalk devices typicaly used NVRAM. I don't
    > have a board handy to see if there was a battery, so i'd be curious to
    > know what was used to store nonvolitle data that was likely to change.

    So would I.

    Meanwhile, I did find a copy of the IInt manual. Here's an extract (from
    page 41):

    "Note: Because the LaserWriter IInt component that registers the options
    can wear out with excessive use (several thousand changes), change the
    options only when necessary."

    Nothing about NVRAM but I'm sure there must have been something else.
    Note that this is on the IInt; the IIntx didn't have the EEPROM
    (probably it was straight battery backed NVRAM) because the manual says
    that it didn't have the same restriction.

    --
    Bob Eager
    begin a new life...take up Extreme Ironing!
  37. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    > >But with respect to page counters.....several older and/or low end monochrome
    > >laser printers don't have a counter.

    > Really? My HP IIp had one as does the IIIp that now sits in a corner in
    > case of emergencies.

    I have to admit, I can't think of a single laser printer that didn't
    have a counter somewhere. I have seen some trully oddball ones that
    had a manual counter somewhere inside, but these were very very odd
    beasts back when the HP LJ was young. The HP II series while popular
    were not really the first by any means. The oldest laser I know of was
    the LBP-10 and that is by name only. There were some earlier 70s
    versions by xerox, but I know nothing at all about those, far too big
    and heavy to store on my desk.
  38. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    On Mon, 15 Aug 2005 00:02:03 UTC, "zakezuke" <zakezuke_us@yahoo.com>
    wrote:

    > >Dunno...it's years since I had the Apple LW!
    >
    > You seemed very clear on the subject when you said
    >
    > "The Apple LaserWriter II/IINT used an EEPROM - no battery needed. The
    > downside was that it wore out after a few thousand writes, so was used
    > only for rarely-changed information - not pagecounts!"
    >
    > An odd thing to say when you replied to my concern over swapping boards
    > in an LW NT about the pagecount. It did clearly employ a form of
    > non-volitile memory.

    No, I was merely saying that it appeared to have *both*.

    --
    Bob Eager
    begin a new life...take up Extreme Ironing!
  39. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    In message <part1of1.1.baJ7j4CC1h8AXA@ue.ph>, Tony <?@?.?.invalid>
    writes
    >But with respect to page counters.....several older and/or low end monochrome
    >laser printers don't have a counter.

    Really? My HP IIp had one as does the IIIp that now sits in a corner in
    case of emergencies.

    --
    Timothy
  40. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    "me@privacy.net" <me@Privacy.Net> wrote:
    >In message <part1of1.1.baJ7j4CC1h8AXA@ue.ph>, Tony <?@?.?.invalid>
    >writes
    >>But with respect to page counters.....several older and/or low end monochrome
    >>laser printers don't have a counter.
    >
    >Really? My HP IIp had one as does the IIIp that now sits in a corner in
    >case of emergencies.
    >
    >--
    >Timothy

    Timothy
    Yes really.... several older OKI and Brother lasers do not count pages. So far
    as I know all modern lasers do keep count.
    Tony
  41. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    "me@privacy.net" <me@Privacy.Net> wrote:
    >In message <part1of1.1.baJ7j4CC1h8AXA@ue.ph>, Tony <?@?.?.invalid>
    >writes
    >>But with respect to page counters.....several older and/or low end monochrome
    >>laser printers don't have a counter.
    >
    >Really? My HP IIp had one as does the IIIp that now sits in a corner in
    >case of emergencies.
    >
    >--
    >Timothy

    Timothy
    Oh by the way...I'd forgotten these.
    HP LaserJet 4L,5L and 6L printers don't have any NVRAM available, so there is
    no way for the printer to retain a page count once the printer is powered off.
    These printers have a page counter that operates until the printer is powered
    off. At power off the page count is reset to zero.
    I guess you could argue that they do count pages but they suffer from medium
    and long term memory loss <g>.
    Yep, old printers but still around.
    Tony
  42. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    In message <1124095266.251723.207710@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
    zakezuke <zakezuke_us@yahoo.com> writes
    >> >But with respect to page counters.....several older and/or low end
    >> >monochrome
    >> >laser printers don't have a counter.
    >
    >> Really? My HP IIp had one as does the IIIp that now sits in a corner in
    >> case of emergencies.
    >
    >I have to admit, I can't think of a single laser printer that didn't
    >have a counter somewhere. I have seen some trully oddball ones that
    >had a manual counter somewhere inside,

    Strangely enough my colour photocopier/printer has both manual ones and
    the system board ones. My black and white photocopier has a manual
    counter only.


    --
    Timothy
  43. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    > "Note: Because the LaserWriter IInt component that registers the options
    > can wear out with excessive use (several thousand changes), change the
    > options only when necessary."
    >
    > Nothing about NVRAM but I'm sure there must have been something else.
    > Note that this is on the IInt; the IIntx didn't have the EEPROM
    > (probably it was straight battery backed NVRAM) because the manual says
    > that it didn't have the same restriction.

    Righto... when I swapped out my system board in my laser printer (note
    the generic because the particulars are beside the point)... there was
    no way for me to know the page count because the system board was
    kaput, and while it normally would tell me the page when I turned on
    the printer... I turned that feature off. When I finally gave away
    that printer, I had to say in all honesty I had no idea what the page
    count was as I swapped out the system boards.

    I could be incorrect in thinking that info was stored on the system
    board, or I could be correct. It's generally a safe assumption on most
    lasers. The mechnism that stores the information is beside the point
    when in the case of a systemboard failure there is no real means of
    telling what the page count is. If your lucky there is a log
    somewhere that'll give you a ball park figure.. but generally speaking
    unless the printer had any sort of service... that information is lost.

    Anyhow there are rebuilt lasers who have a pagecount of zero. Perhaps
    this was set to keep track of the new referbished pagecount, or perhaps
    they replaced the system board and had no clue what the page count
    was... very likely in the PC recycling world where you don't meet the
    prior owners it's just surplus. While this may be contrary to the
    written world of the service manual... reality is contrary to the
    written word of the service manual as there is really no way to know
    the page count on a system board that is fried. If using NVram or some
    form of flashrom you "might" be able to pull it and put it in the new
    one.... if your lucky, but in a real world situation it's perfectly
    normal for that data to be gone.
  44. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    Oh really?

    I think the feeling is mutual.

    Art

    Bob Eager wrote:

    > On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 09:42:35 UTC, Arthur Entlich
    > <e-printerhelp@mvps.org> wrote:
    >
    >
    >>I'd call this "extreme backpedaling" to go with the your extreme ironing.
    >
    >
    > Your lack of comprehension is astounding. I give up.
    >
  45. Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

    You keep digging yourself further into your own hole.

    Here and in a previous posting you admit how accessible the service
    manual is; well out of the secret cloisters of HP and their official
    techs, obviously making the reset procedure VERY accessible to the
    general public, and therefore NO engineer is required, nor is there any
    need for a board change or an internal reprogramming of the non-volatile
    RAM.

    THEREFORE, the original statement that the page count numbers being a
    potentially unreliable benchmark of the use the printer has received
    which you tried to refute with your statement about the need for
    engineers and programming knowledge is indeed accurate and your
    statement that is was not, is the bogus one, just as I pointed out.

    You now seem to be refuting your own postings by stating that it is easy
    to change the page count if you have the service manual, and that the
    service manual is no longer in the control of HP and the technicians
    they wish to have it.

    I really don't know how much clearer the logic of my argument could be made.

    Art


    Bob Eager wrote:

    > On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 14:02:47 UTC, Alan <none@none.com> wrote:
    >
    >
    >>>>>For example, on the LaserJet 4 it can be reset by an engineer - and that
    >>>>>is done if the engineer changes the board with the counter NVRAM on it.
    >>>>>He is supposed to set the new board to have the same count as the old
    >>>>>one.
    >>>>
    >>>>On an HP4 or 5 at least, you can set the pagecount to be anything you
    >>>>want from the front panel if you know the magic combination
    >>
    >>>Isn't that what I said? (without giving details)?
    >>
    >>Well "it can be reset by an engineer" gives the distinct impression of
    >>specialised knowledge, a higher degree and tools being necessary, not
    >>just pressing several keys on the control panel.
    >
    >
    > Specialised knowledge == service manual !!
    > Higher degree - do you mean a Master's degree?
    >
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