Sign in with
Sign up | Sign in
Your question
Closed

PlayStation 4 Could Get GPU Switching, Dynamic UI

Last response: in News comments
Share
December 30, 2012 12:06:15 PM

... APU 4TW!!!
Score
21
December 30, 2012 12:06:25 PM

Would be nice on the electric bill. Use some low priced GPU to play back movies and such and only kick on the big one for heavy games.
Score
22
Related resources
December 30, 2012 12:18:08 PM

How is this different from Nvidia Optimus?
Score
23
December 30, 2012 12:26:23 PM

If only they could wait for the AMD APUs that could be teamed up with the 8000(m?) series. I'm not saying "This is the best!," but since it is rumored to be an APU, it might be the best we can hope for.
Score
8
Anonymous
December 30, 2012 12:56:01 PM

@m32 how much do you want to pay ?
and how should a console get an apu series wich isnt even out yet?
Score
-7
December 30, 2012 1:00:02 PM

consoles should be open to the owner to upgrade (add RAM, switch Graphics, etc...)
without loosing your warranty nor "loosing your "privileges" as a console owner"
Score
-23
December 30, 2012 1:03:25 PM

drwho1consoles should be open to the owner to upgrade (add RAM, switch Graphics, etc...)without loosing your warranty nor "loosing your "privileges" as a console owner"


And then youd have a PC. Great idea. /s
Score
36
December 30, 2012 1:15:38 PM

My god... Even current gen trinity couldn't handle BF3 at 1080p... because of the weak CPU, how is it even possible to even more graphics intensive games?
Score
-21
December 30, 2012 1:16:04 PM

Have bin suggesting that for years. Use a low and graphics chip for 'normal' work. Desktop, Word processing, spread sheets etc. 90% of most work loads.
Power up the high end GPU when required. selected programs could on start up for examply send a system request for the GPU.

It is silly to have 50W of power wasted on "stand by" of a high powered GPU.
Score
-7
December 30, 2012 1:39:08 PM

freggoHave bin suggesting that for years. Use a low and graphics chip for 'normal' work. Desktop, Word processing, spread sheets etc. 90% of most work loads.Power up the high end GPU when required. selected programs could on start up for examply send a system request for the GPU.It is silly to have 50W of power wasted on "stand by" of a high powered GPU.
To be fair modern GPUs, even discrete desktop models, have very low idle power consumption. GCN in particular does very well.
KelvinTyMy god... Even current gen trinity couldn't handle BF3 at 1080p... because of the weak CPU, how is it even possible to even more graphics intensive games?
You're contradicting yourself a bit. If it was just graphics it would be stressing the GPU side heavily. This console will have discrete graphics too. BF3 has lots of other stuff going on, especially in multiplayer, that tax the CPU side. But "more graphics intensive games" are certainly possible on Trinity, especially given that it is a closed box and there's lots of room for optimizations (including but not limited to using the new instructions BD/PD introduced, and optimized load balancing on the GPUs for best-case multi-GPU scaling). We also don't know final core count, clocks, any other chips onboard to offload to (physics, AI), etc.
Score
10
December 30, 2012 1:47:58 PM

So Nvidia Optimus/AMD Dynamic Switchable Graphics never happened...?!?
Score
8
December 30, 2012 2:01:29 PM

Why the patent? This idea is rather obvious and discussed to its logical conclusion in the mobile computing space. So what are they patenting? The same notion in gaming consoles? Are they trying to put the remainder of the industry on notice? Do the same and we SUE! Now I'm all for the industry making this switch. This could enable faster console upgrades and more simple backward compatibility for succeding consoles but if they try to flex this patent in court it'll fall on its face.

@KelvinTy. AMD always said the architecture is scailable outside the PC space. If the die were expanded, trade a processing core for more GPU space, and change the memory controller to a 256bit GDDR5 then you'd have something much more competent. Still wouldn't quite displace a good dedicated GPU.
Score
5
December 30, 2012 2:11:01 PM

What was the point of the PS3 slim slim or superslim or whatever the thing is called?
Score
-7
December 30, 2012 2:11:53 PM

whysoHow is this different from Nvidia Optimus?

Where does it say that it is any different?
Score
-10
December 30, 2012 2:20:00 PM

chroniumWhere does it say that it is any different?


The context of the question is posing the question that the Nvidia Optimus already exist and wasn't mentioned in the patent. So how is it different... don't be a smart a**
Score
15
December 30, 2012 3:01:36 PM

I wonder how much a gpu upgrade would cost.... $200 *cough *cough
Score
-7
December 30, 2012 3:14:47 PM

drwho1consoles should be open to the owner to upgrade

Consoles are managing to maintain their market relevance because consumers and developers can rely on the fact that every console of a particular model family will be almost exactly the same as any other console from the same family so developers only have one general platform to worry testing, debugging and optimizing for and consumers can enjoy very predictable and repeatable performance no matter which variant of a particular console they pick.

Without all the component access and modularity thanks to everything being integrated into the motherboard, consoles can achieve better performance at better efficiency in much smaller form factors and lower cost than conventional PCs can, which are all very much welcome in the consumer electronics market.

If you take most of those away, you end up with devices mechanically and electrically as complex and as expensive as PCs with none of consoles' benefits for developers and consumers alike.
Score
20
December 30, 2012 3:36:45 PM

Will it be able to do the hybrid crossfire that we see with the Llano APU and a 6670 for better performance? But, you know with Trinity.
Score
0
December 30, 2012 4:03:49 PM

Deadboy90Will it be able to do the hybrid crossfire that we see with the Llano APU and a 6670 for better performance? But, you know with Trinity.

While it should be technically possible, it would not be practical.

Since SLI/CFX work by issuing frames to the next GPU available, if one GPU is substantially faster than the other(s), frames get finished out-of-order and the IGP/slower-GPU's tardy frames simply get dropped which may make the final rendered video stuttery/choppy.

Pairing an IGP with a much faster GPU simply does not work for realtime rendering.
Score
2
December 30, 2012 4:14:53 PM

xendromeThe context of the question is posing the question that the Nvidia Optimus already exist and wasn't mentioned in the patent. So how is it different... don't be a smart a**


You're the one to talk. If he was seriously asking that then he's on the wrong website because the only way to answer that is by comparing patents vague descriptions.
Score
-6
December 30, 2012 4:16:31 PM

I'm confused. Wouldn't Nvidias Optimus be prior art? It switches between the Intel IGP and a discreet Nvidia chip without user interaction, dynamically and based on GPU load.

It would be interesting if the weaker GPU in the PS4 could be used for GPGPU calculations while the stronger GPU is used for graphics work in the PS4, that could help out a lot with FP heavy work. That would allow lots of physics and so on to be offloaded from the CPU.
Score
7
December 30, 2012 4:20:51 PM

InvalidErrorWhile it should be technically possible, it would not be practical.Since SLI/CFX work by issuing frames to the next GPU available, if one GPU is substantially faster than the other(s), frames get finished out-of-order and the IGP/slower-GPU's tardy frames simply get dropped which may make the final rendered video stuttery/choppy.Pairing an IGP with a much faster GPU simply does not work for realtime rendering.

And yet they offer it with current AMD APU's and GPU's so they must have been able to comensate it. It will also most likely be available for the PS4 as well.
Score
2
December 30, 2012 5:09:40 PM

drwho1consoles should be open to the owner to upgrade (add RAM, switch Graphics, etc...)without loosing your warranty nor "loosing your "privileges" as a console owner"


They are proud of all things because equal as it means no one get an advantage over another in gaming. It's part of their model.
Score
-2
December 30, 2012 5:15:44 PM

vrumorAnd then youd have a PC. Great idea. /s


hmm true but they could be creative and add 2 extra models real models not the lame get 120Gb extra hard drive. it would be cool to get a standard low cost, a silenced half the noise but also a bump in price, and a 60fps all time model also a bit bumped cost. ofc then they haw to mass produce 3 models etc etc but one can hope.
Score
0
December 30, 2012 7:10:49 PM

An APU SoC has alot of potential as a low power graphically intensive solution.
Score
3
Anonymous
December 30, 2012 7:12:50 PM

And it still will be outdated even by my current PC (GTX 690, i7 @ 4.8, 16gb ram, 2560 x 1600 display, 2 x 512Gb SSD). No thanks, kids you can have it.
Score
-9
December 30, 2012 7:56:12 PM

Neat idea. With this, they could have the APU render the boot system and only spin up the GPU when you decide to load up a game. Save some power when you dont need it.
Score
1
a b î Playstation
December 30, 2012 8:24:20 PM

vrumorAnd then youd have a PC. Great idea. /s



The whole point of a console is you buy a game and it plays. IT's not, you only play this game with this much ram or this video card upgrade, it's plug and play. You want customizable system, it's called a PC.
Score
-3
December 30, 2012 11:01:31 PM

Does this mean the ps4 can run the discrete gpu + the APU in crossfire for increased performance as well as switching back and forth between them based on load?
Score
0
December 30, 2012 11:28:42 PM

chroniumAnd yet they offer it with current AMD APU's and GPU's so they must have been able to comensate it. It will also most likely be available for the PS4 as well.


His idea of who ACF works is wrong. There are several modes it can run in. Two identical cards use AFR where each frame is sent to the next card in the loop. ACF use's a load balancing mechanism where each frame is sent to the next available GPU. With a moderate dGPU + APU you typically end up with a 5:1 ~ 6:1 ratio of frames being sent between them. My laptop is an A8-3550MX + 7690M (rebranded 6770) and with ACF turned on it tends to get 6:1 most of the time.

Anyhow their probably not going to even bother. As this is a console the developers will end up using the graphics array on the APU as a coprocessor and dispatching specific instructions to it's GPU component while the main rendering is done on the dGPU.
Score
1
December 30, 2012 11:33:12 PM

laststop311Does this mean the ps4 can run the discrete gpu + the APU in crossfire for increased performance as well as switching back and forth between them based on load?


You want confirmation of a feature based on a rumour?
Score
1
December 31, 2012 12:28:41 AM

Well we have three possibilities here: the person quoted has never looked into what would be prior art (Optimus)or they said something idiotic or Sony is going ARM+desktop class videocard. While the third option would be interesting and possible, one of the first two are more plausable.
Score
0
December 31, 2012 12:33:25 AM

Hopefully it will work like this:

#1 - Very efficient GPU for video playback and the PS4 interface.

#2 - Efficient GPU used for the HUD element and STREAMING in-game. Like this:
- Efficient GPU used for HUD, thus allowing the REST of the game to be anti-aliased independent of HUD/text. Both elements are MERGED at the end.
- Some game elements could be GPU-decoded on the efficient GPU (texture decoding or whatever) and these elements MERGED with the main GPU.

POWER and the "efficient" GPU:
Power consumption is important and that demands two GPU's to work properly (one efficient for video and light-loads and the other turned OFF when not needed).

However, Sony really needs to make that efficient GPU work in conjunction with the main GPU. It might seem the advantages are small, but they are not.

*If the two GPU's are to work together it would be advantageous for the XBOX720 to have a similar architecture. In the PC world this would work great as well (Intel CPU graphics + addon graphics card).
Score
0
December 31, 2012 9:03:46 AM

vrumorAnd then youd have a PC. Great idea. /s


To be fair sony make a loss on the hardware... by offering simplified hardware upgrades with a markup could add revenue people.


Would be even better if sony began to offer the PS OS (assuming if it is running on an AMD APU it's x86 arch) for a price, then some PC gamers would probably buy it and install it on their own hardware so they can enjoy PS titles.
This could mean more revenue through titles, as well as OS sales, less lossy hardware sales, whilst giving the PC hardware market a boost, and PC gamers a larger selection (and hopefully lower game prices due to competition).

This is unlikely but would be nice!

Score
0
December 31, 2012 9:13:55 AM

lovett1991To be fair sony make a loss on the hardware... by offering simplified hardware upgrades with a markup could add revenue people.Would be even better if sony began to offer the PS OS (assuming if it is running on an AMD APU it's x86 arch) for a price, then some PC gamers would probably buy it and install it on their own hardware so they can enjoy PS titles. This could mean more revenue through titles, as well as OS sales, less lossy hardware sales, whilst giving the PC hardware market a boost, and PC gamers a larger selection (and hopefully lower game prices due to competition). This is unlikely but would be nice!


This will never happen. A playstation operating system that you install on your PC. That turns your PC into a playstation. First sony needs everybody to have all the exact same hardware so the games can be optimized properly and everyone has a good equivalent experience. Second, with the PS OS on a normal PC, it will be hacked before it even comes out. On a PC hackers can completely control whats going on and intercept decryption keys and break the drm with ease. Sony was the only manufacture able to keep ps3 games off piracy for the majority of it's life. They are not gonna give up that awesome security and with all they have learned from the ps3 hackings the PS4 is gonna be the fort knox of video game systems. I hear there will be many hardware mechanisms built onto the mainboard to stop from accessing sensitive areas and even booby trap type things that brick your ps4 on purpose if you mess with it.
Score
1
December 31, 2012 9:36:38 AM

laststop311This will never happen. A playstation operating system that you install on your PC. That turns your PC into a playstation. First sony needs everybody to have all the exact same hardware so the games can be optimized properly and everyone has a good equivalent experience. Second, with the PS OS on a normal PC, it will be hacked before it even comes out. On a PC hackers can completely control whats going on and intercept decryption keys and break the drm with ease. Sony was the only manufacture able to keep ps3 games off piracy for the majority of it's life. They are not gonna give up that awesome security and with all they have learned from the ps3 hackings the PS4 is gonna be the fort knox of video game systems. I hear there will be many hardware mechanisms built onto the mainboard to stop from accessing sensitive areas and even booby trap type things that brick your ps4 on purpose if you mess with it.


Whilst I agree with you (I did say it was unlikely), with regards to security you could say that about any PC game? So they'd have to implement a steam equivalent where your games are associated with your account, and cannot be played otherwise (although EA's origin sucks and I personally had many difficulties with playing BF3). I would also mention that because it is a separate OS it wouldn't be similar to cracking the familiar windows x86.

With regards to optimisation, all games would be based around the base console model as with the xbox (the newer xbox's 360's are more powerful but all games are designed with the original 360 in mind). Just with upgraded hardware, or a personal rig people can enjoy the greater detail that PC gamers are used to. Especially with AMD now having a generic driver, different gfx cards would not be too much of an issue(excluding xfire etc). And obviously they could provide a list of support hardware to cover discrepancies.

Again I say wishful thinking, but it isn't the most ludicrous idea.
Score
-1
December 31, 2012 1:16:22 PM

***UPDATE***
I think I just realized I may have mistaken GPU switching for upgradability but I will keep my initial post incase anyone wants to read my not-so-crazy idea on keeping consoles current.

I wrote a blog post about how console makers should add GPU upgradability and how it could be done. Nice to see an idea like this is seriously on the table.

My blog basically talks about how you would need to keep it simple and how the upgrade could work similar to the hard drive upgrade bay on the PS3.
Here is what I suggested:
1. Each GPU would have a number the lowest is the slowest. The initial consoles would come with GPU 1 installed. After about 1 or 2 years GPU 2 could be released. People could upgrade if they wanted to but all games made for the system would detect which GPU was installed and automatically adjust graphical settings (Manual settings/adjustments would still not be allowed). If you have GPU number 5 then you might get the best graphics that game has to offer. If you still have the original one that's fine, you can still play the game you may just not get all the same detail that the number 5 GPU would get. (This could also allow for 1080p [or higher] resolutions in games that would otherwise be 720p.)
2. Each GPU would need to almost completely enclosed in plastic to protect it from electro static discharge issues and to keep the circuitry from being exposed. Since the general public would be handling these video cards this would be a good idea.
3. Each GPU would need plenty of cooling capacity with heatsync, vents and a fan or two.

Imagine...
You get Half-Life 3 with revoutionary new graphics. It looks amazing on your PC but your console version doesn't look that great... until.. GPU 3 is released!!!

It would be a good selling point for new consoles aside from just a bigger hard drive and an included game or two.
Score
0
December 31, 2012 1:33:23 PM

dark_lord69I wrote a blog post about how console makers should add GPU upgradability and how it could be done. Nice to see an idea like this is seriously on the table.My blog basically talks about how you would need to keep it simple and how the upgrade could work similar to the hard drive upgrade bay on the PS3.Here is what I suggested:1. Each GPU would have a number the lowest is the slowest. The initial consoles would come with GPU 1 installed. After about 1 or 2 years GPU 2 could be released. People could upgrade if they wanted to but all games made for the system would detect which GPU was installed and automatically adjust graphical settings (Manual settings/adjustments would still not be allowed). If you have GPU number 5 then you might get the best graphics that game has to offer. If you still have the original one that's fine, you can still play the game you may just not get all the same detail that the number 5 GPU would get. (This could also allow for 1080p [or higher] resolutions in games that would otherwise be 720p.)2. Each GPU would need to almost completely enclosed in plastic to protect it from electro static discharge issues and to keep the circuitry from being exposed. Since the general public would be handling these video cards this would be a good idea.3. Each GPU would need plenty of cooling capacity with heatsync, vents and a fan or two.Imagine...You get Half-Life 3 with revoutionary new graphics. It looks amazing on your PC but your console version doesn't look that great... until.. GPU 3 is released!!!It would be a good selling point for new consoles aside from just a bigger hard drive and an included game or two.


I totally think this is a brilliant idea (I said something similar earlier), and as you said if simplified could be made "consumer proof"! Someone else mentioned on an older article that they should think about implementing a technology such as thunderbolt (I appreciate thunderbolt has limitations).

The advantage is is the console could have multiple "thunderboltish" ports so you could actually buy 2 GPU upgrades and run them on separate ports. The console could then run these in an "SLI" fashion.

But I think the overall theory that all games should be built with the base model as recommended specs, but with gpu upgrades things like AA, and resolution could be bumped up so that consoles provide the gfx experience PC users have (or maybe only a year behind rather than where we are now like 7 years behind!) if you're willing to shell out for the upgrade!

Sony could totally do something silly like sell TV's with a gpu slot, so that there is less clutter/cables!
Score
-1
January 1, 2013 12:25:45 AM

Soda-88So Nvidia Optimus/AMD Dynamic Switchable Graphics never happened...?!?


It's entirely possible to have two different patents that describe two different ways of doing something similar.
Score
-1
Anonymous
January 1, 2013 2:21:15 AM

SLI developed by nVidia my ass. 3dfx bitches!
Score
1
January 1, 2013 4:05:54 AM

InvalidErrorWhile it should be technically possible, it would not be practical.Since SLI/CFX work by issuing frames to the next GPU available, if one GPU is substantially faster than the other(s), frames get finished out-of-order and the IGP/slower-GPU's tardy frames simply get dropped which may make the final rendered video stuttery/choppy.Pairing an IGP with a much faster GPU simply does not work for realtime rendering.
No offense, but you're being extremely narrow-minded. AFR is NOT the only way to make two GPUs work together. Just because this is the easiest, most compatible route for PC gaming doesn't mean it is the best method for all setups. Depending on the GPUs in question, AFR can become nearly useless. On a console (a closed system, in which you only have to worry about one hardware target) you could even just have each GPU (the slower iGPU and the faster dGPU) render/crunch specific things you designate. Forget AFR. No need to worry about compatibility with existing DX/OGL titles. :p 
Score
0
January 1, 2013 4:20:08 AM

lovett1991With regards to optimisation, all games would be based around the base console model as with the xbox (the newer xbox's 360's are more powerful but all games are designed with the original 360 in mind). Just with upgraded hardware, or a personal rig people can enjoy the greater detail that PC gamers are used to.
The newer Xbox 360 consoles have several advantages over older ones, but they are NOT more powerful. CPU and GPU performance have remained the same from start to finish.

One of the advantages of consoles, the optimization for a specific set of hardware, butts against this idea. In particular, any game developed prior to an upgrade's existence would not benefit from said upgrade, because it was custom tailored for the non-upgraded hardware. Anything after it would still have to run perfectly on the base model, as upgrades in the console world rarely meet with heavy success.

So while I have nothing against upgrades, they won't benefit you to the same degree they do on a PC. PC games have to work on an extremely diverse bunch of devices, and thus are less-optimized but are also scalable (and thus benefit immediately by gaining performance through upgrades). Still... some kind of one-time major upgrade released halfway through the console's lifecycle (perhaps with a new model released at the same time that has the upgrades integrated) still would be very interesting if nothing else.
Score
0
January 1, 2013 12:10:04 PM

alextheblueThe newer Xbox 360 consoles have several advantages over older ones, but they are NOT more powerful. CPU and GPU performance have remained the same from start to finish.


As far as I was aware the 360 slim had die shrink SoC implementation (rather than seperate CPU/GPU), which allowed far lower latency, less pipe-lining, and had potential for improved clock speeds (As well as lower power consumption). It had to be purposely restrained as to keep in check with the original 360's.

I definitely see a difference in performance (not in gaming graphics but in responsiveness on dash/video/other apps etc) between my original 360, elite & slim.

alextheblueSo while I have nothing against upgrades, they won't benefit you to the same degree they do on a PC. PC games have to work on an extremely diverse bunch of devices, and thus are less-optimized but are also scalable (and thus benefit immediately by gaining performance through upgrades). Still... some kind of one-time major upgrade released halfway through the console's lifecycle (perhaps with a new model released at the same time that has the upgrades integrated) still would be very interesting if nothing else.


Ah ok. So things like shadow, texture quality, resolution are [would be] relatively fixed? In which case GPU upgrades could only offer improved AA performance?

To be fair, whilst older games wouldn't benefit, as newer games are released (post GPU upgrade) devs could program a limited number of modes for each upgrade (if the upgrades are as simple as dark_lord69 said). A GPU upgrade every 2-3 years could realistically mean 3-4 different modes by the end of an 8-12 year life cycle.
Score
0
January 1, 2013 11:10:16 PM

I expect that the GPUs would have similar specs on both chips. Performance will depend upon if they employ eDRAM, and if so, on which die it is used.
Score
0
January 1, 2013 11:15:43 PM

dark_lord69***UPDATE***I think I just realized I may have mistaken GPU switching for upgradability but I will keep my initial post incase anyone wants to read my not-so-crazy idea on keeping consoles current.I wrote a blog post about how console makers should add GPU upgradability and how it could be done. Nice to see an idea like this is seriously on the table.My blog basically talks about how you would need to keep it simple and how the upgrade could work similar to the hard drive upgrade bay on the PS3.Here is what I suggested:1. Each GPU would have a number the lowest is the slowest. The initial consoles would come with GPU 1 installed. After about 1 or 2 years GPU 2 could be released. People could upgrade if they wanted to but all games made for the system would detect which GPU was installed and automatically adjust graphical settings (Manual settings/adjustments would still not be allowed). If you have GPU number 5 then you might get the best graphics that game has to offer. If you still have the original one that's fine, you can still play the game you may just not get all the same detail that the number 5 GPU would get. (This could also allow for 1080p [or higher] resolutions in games that would otherwise be 720p.)2. Each GPU would need to almost completely enclosed in plastic to protect it from electro static discharge issues and to keep the circuitry from being exposed. Since the general public would be handling these video cards this would be a good idea.3. Each GPU would need plenty of cooling capacity with heatsync, vents and a fan or two.Imagine...You get Half-Life 3 with revoutionary new graphics. It looks amazing on your PC but your console version doesn't look that great... until.. GPU 3 is released!!!It would be a good selling point for new consoles aside from just a bigger hard drive and an included game or two.

All of this makes for more work, and increased cost, which is passed on to everyone. The money is in the software, not the hardware. Besides, there are other components that may need to be upgraded along with an upgraded GPU, such as a power supply.
Score
0
January 2, 2013 2:30:09 PM

I don't understand why you would want a console to cost more just to add a low power gpu. They don't run on a battery.
Score
0
January 6, 2013 6:24:17 AM

bigdog44All of this makes for more work, and increased cost, which is passed on to everyone. The money is in the software, not the hardware. Besides, there are other components that may need to be upgraded along with an upgraded GPU, such as a power supply.


I agree, having multiple versions causes all sorts of headaches with optimizing. It's one of the main reasons many developers stay away from the PC.

On the other hand, Valve is coming out with the STEAMBOX. It's a PC optimized to a console form factor. It will likely run the new STEAM controller interface on top of Windows 8.

If it's successful, it would be logical to release a new STEAMBOX every two years. On launch it will support all the Steam games whereas the XBOX720/PS4 will have a limited portfolio.

Very, very interesting times ahead for consoles.

Even if the STEAMBOX cost a little more this is offset by the savings in games. At first glance, I think the benefits outweight the cons but we'll have to wait and see.
Score
0
January 24, 2013 7:45:16 AM

Mouse and keyboard would make get it.
Score
0
April 7, 2013 12:19:51 PM

This is a terrible idea and will cause much stress over to the developers having to tweak for lower cards and the default cards and then high end cards. I don't think this will happen in this generation.
Score
0
!