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Bulk Pigment Ink for a Dye Ink Printer

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Anonymous
September 4, 2005 11:19:19 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

I'm thinking of getting into the Niagara system of bulk ink through
Media Street. My printer is an Epson R320 which uses dye inks. With
that system, I can use their pigment type inks which is called
Generations G-Chrome. Cost to start with the Niagara system is $269
American. The ink is $116.10 and comes in 4 ounce bottles. Digital
Camera magazine (October 2005) has a favorable preview with this system
using printers made for dye inks. I have several questions and maybe
some here can help.
1. With this ink, what can I expect from an occasional text print from
MS Word? As sharp as those made using dye inks?
2. How about cost savings? They advertise 90% savings going to this
bulk ink. Is anyone getting this kind of savings? I print mostly
photos, maybe six to a dozen a week.
3. I print an occasional B+W text slide using transparency film, for
church that I made in Corel Draw. Would the print be as stable as those
I currently print with my R320 using the OEM dye inks? I would get the
Generations ink with the black ink made for glossy media.
Thanks and any help would be appreciated.
Kayaker
September 4, 2005 11:47:25 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

> 1. With this ink, what can I expect from an occasional text print from
> MS Word? As sharp as those made using dye inks?
> 2. How about cost savings? They advertise 90% savings going to this
> bulk ink. Is anyone getting this kind of savings? I print mostly
> photos, maybe six to a dozen a week.
> 3. I print an occasional B+W text slide using transparency film, for
> church that I made in Corel Draw. Would the print be as stable as those
> I currently print with my R320 using the OEM dye inks? I would get the
> Generations ink with the black ink made for glossy media.
> Thanks and any help would be appreciated.

The pigment inks, esp the archival ones tend to run $10ish an oz or so
genericly speaking. Mediastreet's pricelist is presently buggered.
Expect to spend $1280ish/gal. I forget the actual ml size of the
T048120, but i'm guessing it's cost ranges $4500/gal class though I
seem to remember $5000/gal.

I don't know how well the pigment ink will work in the r300. I'm sure
the pigments are pretty fine as they are geard for printers with much
smaller nozzles than the r300. The plug and play dye inks are likely
to provide a better solution.

I don't know if their plug and play inks are "Image Specalists" or not.
In the past I used MIS inks with the Epson R200 which near as i'm
aware takes the same head.

http://www.inksupply.com/epsoninks.cfm#r200

Unless you absolutly need pigment ink, or absoultly want external ink
tanks for the R300 you have, the in cost on refillable tanks and bulk
dye ink is far less. You can e-bay a set of refillable tanks for on
average $10 each or less. Bulk ink is closer to $320/gal rather than
$1000 (aprox)ish for pigment and $5000 (aprox)ish for OEM.

While the printer worked the quality was excelent. The MIS ink
(suspected as being Image Specalists) showed the same quality on
non-printable discs as the OEM, as in it beaded up a little but then
dried.

http://www.nifty-stuff.com/forum/index.php
You might want to check with these guys on reccomendations for ink,
cartridges, or CIS systems.
Anonymous
September 6, 2005 12:35:13 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

>The pigment inks, esp the archival ones tend to run $10ish an oz or so genericly speaking. Mediastreet's pricelist is presently >buggered. Expect to spend $1280ish/gal. I forget the actual ml size of the T048120, but i'm guessing it's cost ranges $4500/gal >class though I seem to remember $5000/gal.

>I don't know how well the pigment ink will work in the r300. I'm sure the pigments are pretty fine as they are geard for printers >with much smaller nozzles than the r300. The plug and play dye inks are likely to provide a better solution.

>I don't know if their plug and play inks are "Image Specalists" or not. In the past I used MIS inks with the Epson R200 which near >as i'm aware takes the same head.

>http://www.inksupply.com/epsoninks.cfm#r200

>Unless you absolutly need pigment ink, or absoultly want external ink tanks for the R300 you have, the in cost on refillable >tanks and bulk dye ink is far less. You can e-bay a set of refillable tanks for on average $10 each or less. Bulk ink is >closer to $320/gal rather than $1000 (aprox)ish for pigment and $5000 (aprox)ish for OEM.

>While the printer worked the quality was excelent. The MIS ink
(suspected as being Image Specalists) showed the same quality >on
non-printable discs as the OEM, as in it beaded up a little but then
dried.

>http://www.nifty-stuff.com/forum/index.php
You might want to check with these guys on reccomendations >for ink,
cartridges, or CIS systems.

Thanks for the info Zakejuke. I checked out the web sites and they're
good also. I do want the pigment ink even more than I want the savings
associated with bulk inks. It's the the longer life the pigment inks
give that interest me. The cost savings is good also. I realize the
savings is much greater with bulk dye inks than with pigment inks but
it is the pigment ink that gets my interest.
I am hoping someone has used the pigment inks with one of the Epson
200-320 printers as I would like to find out how it works with an
occasional text print as well as an occasional photo on plain paper.
Lynn
Related resources
September 6, 2005 4:32:57 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

> Thanks for the info Zakejuke. I checked out the web sites and they're
> good also. I do want the pigment ink even more than I want the savings
> associated with bulk inks. It's the the longer life the pigment inks
> give that interest me. The cost savings is good also. I realize the
> savings is much greater with bulk dye inks than with pigment inks but
> it is the pigment ink that gets my interest.
> I am hoping someone has used the pigment inks with one of the Epson
> 200-320 printers as I would like to find out how it works with an
> occasional text print as well as an occasional photo on plain paper.

If it's occasional why not consider refillable cartridges? If you're
looking at a CIS from media street you're looking at an incost of $270
vs an incost of less than $100 for refillable tanks, i'd guess $50 to
$60. Most of the aftermarket refillable cartridges I see for the epson
are the no foam vacuum fill type which can be a pain unless you have
the a syrenge with the proper sized tip to match the input of the
cartridge. If you find that you desire the ability to print more than
about 30 full color prints without refilling a single tank than the CIS
is for you, and I imagine they are less prone to being messy assuming
they are working well.
Anonymous
September 7, 2005 9:55:47 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

>zakezuke
If it's occasional why not consider refillable cartridges? If you're
>looking at a CIS from media street you're looking at an incost of $270 vs an incost of less than $100 for refillable tanks, i'd guess >$50 to $60. Most of the aftermarket refillable cartridges I see for the epson are the no foam vacuum fill type which can be a pain >unless you have the a syrenge with the proper sized tip to match the input of the cartridge. If you find that you desire the >ability to print more than about 30 full color prints without refilling a single tank than the CIS is for you, and I imagine they >are less prone to being messy assuming they are working well.

I think my only recourse if I want to use pigment inks is to buy the
Niagara system and then I must use the bulk inks. You're right, to get
started in the Niagara system, will cost me $269 and the 6 inks in 4
ounce bottles cost $116. The savings is that the Epson ink cartridges
contain less than 1 ounce. I see in the next post someone suggests
using the Epson 2200 ink cartridges (pigmented) by putting the 200/300
chips on the 2200 cartridges.
I'll see what that entails.
Thanks,
Lynn
Anonymous
September 7, 2005 9:59:44 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

>... and another choice. You can use epson 2200 ink cartridges (pigmented),
>put on them the 200/320 chips, and reset the chips with a resetter. This way
>you can use both original and aftermarket ink cartridges.

Yianni,
That's interesting, how would I do that? Would I have to pay a resetter
each time I bought new cartridges? Or, can I transfer the chips to the
new cartridges myself?
Thanks,
Lynn
September 7, 2005 10:58:50 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

> That's interesting, how would I do that? Would I have to pay a resetter
> each time I bought new cartridges? Or, can I transfer the chips to the
> new cartridges myself?

What Yianni is talking about is...
Take your r300 chips, reset them to zero using resetter
remove epson 2200 chips, toss them
place r300 chips on 2200 tanks
print till empty

Viable solution... no real savings in terms of cost as you are still
buying OEM ink, but epson OEM ink is pretty good.
-------------

I would still lean tward bulk 3rd party ink, putting them in refillable
cartridges with self resetting chips. Basicly the same thing as a CIS
but without the tubes that go to external ink. Unless you are printing
in serious bulk, as in more than 30ish pages a month I see the amount
of ink you can put into a refillable tank being adquate so long as you
don't mind manually filling them once a month.
Anonymous
September 8, 2005 7:26:57 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

.... and another choice. You can use epson 2200 ink cartridges (pigmented),
put on them the 200/320 chips, and reset the chips with a resetter. This way
you can use both original and aftermarket ink cartridges.

--


--
Yianni
in@mailbox9.gr (remove number nine to reply)
Anonymous
September 10, 2005 6:05:45 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

Okay, I can get pigment ink into my Epson R320 printer. My next
question is - How does text print with this ink? And can I use this
printer to print on transparency paper?

I know the best suggestion would be to use two printers as printing
color photos is my highest priority and I also print some text files
and downloads on plain paper, plus some overheads on transparency
paper, but if I only have one printer would I be satisfied with Media
Streets Generation inks? I'm already thinking of a second printer for
black and white photos.
Lynn
September 10, 2005 8:54:07 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

> Okay, I can get pigment ink into my Epson R320 printer. My next
> question is - How does text print with this ink? And can I use this
> printer to print on transparency paper?

I know nothing at all about transparencies. If talking overhead
projector rather than a film negative or postive I would have thought
that dye would be ideal for colors but I have not used an overhead
projector for some time. Simply put, due to the high cost of inkjet
ink it's often preferable to go with an LCD projector than continuing
to print in color.

There are more options under the sun as far as 3rd party ink goes than
Media Street... just Media Street is one of the few options you could
pickup in a photography store. You might want to ask this question
over at http://www.nifty-stuff.com/forum/index.php.

It might be wise to pickup a a prefilled black cartridge and see for
your self keeping in mind that one might have to swap out a chip from
the epson ink in order to be sure the printer would accept it. The
chips are attached via two plastic posts melted at the tips to form a
mushroom head keeping it in place, so a razor blade is required to
dislodge the chip. See then if it meets your needs. Might as well
pickup a cleaning cartridge while your at it, flush the old ink out of
the head and replace with the pigment ink. The primary application for
bulk inks are for people who print lots and lots, OHP is not something
I tend to see reviewed.
Anonymous
September 10, 2005 9:02:03 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

WHAT A BUNCH OF BULLSHIT. HA HA HA HA

zakezuke wrote:

>> That's interesting, how would I do that? Would I have to pay a resetter
>>each time I bought new cartridges? Or, can I transfer the chips to the
>>new cartridges myself?
>>
>>
>
>What Yianni is talking about is...
>Take your r300 chips, reset them to zero using resetter
>remove epson 2200 chips, toss them
>place r300 chips on 2200 tanks
>print till empty
>
>Viable solution... no real savings in terms of cost as you are still
>buying OEM ink, but epson OEM ink is pretty good.
>-------------
>
>I would still lean tward bulk 3rd party ink, putting them in refillable
>cartridges with self resetting chips. Basicly the same thing as a CIS
>but without the tubes that go to external ink. Unless you are printing
>in serious bulk, as in more than 30ish pages a month I see the amount
>of ink you can put into a refillable tank being adquate so long as you
>don't mind manually filling them once a month.
>
>
>
Anonymous
September 10, 2005 10:29:04 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

>Zakejuke says-
I know nothing at all about transparencies. If talking overhead
>projector rather than a film negative or postive I would have thought that dye would be ideal for colors but I have not used an >overhead projector for some time. Simply put, due to the high cost of inkjet ink it's often preferable to go with an LCD projector >than continuing to print in color.

I copy and paste black and white church songs (text only) onto a
CorelDraw 35mm slide template and print the slides on transparency
paper. I mount the slides in 35mm glass mounts and they can be
projected by an old 35mm slide projector at church. Our church can't
afford a projector and a notebook PC. It would be a lot easier if that
was my option. I can do 15 slides per sheet.

>There are more options under the sun as far as 3rd party ink goes than Media Street... just Media Street is one of the few >options you could pickup in a photography store.

I'm still leaning toward Media Street if I do this because they sell
pigment inks that work in my printer. The dot size on their inks is
smaller than the OEM inks on my printer and isn't supposed to clog the
heads on my printer. I'm not sure about the inks on the Epson 2200
printer. At least with the Media Street inks if something goes wrong I
can go to them for help. I will check out
http://www.nifty-stuff.com/forum/index.php
and see what they say.
Thanks,
Lynn
September 10, 2005 11:17:23 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

> I copy and paste black and white church songs (text only) onto a
> CorelDraw 35mm slide template and print the slides on transparency
> paper. I mount the slides in 35mm glass mounts and they can be
> projected by an old 35mm slide projector at church. Our church can't
> afford a projector and a notebook PC. It would be a lot easier if that
> was my option. I can do 15 slides per sheet.

Is your only application for pigmented ink black and white? Since
your application is printing tiny text and music you might want to look
at some of the text reviews for different printers.

http://www.tomshardware.com/consumer/20041025/printer-0...

For example, the r300 and c86 according to this test didn't peform as
well as the Canon ip4000 (technicaly last year's printer) or even the
HP 7450 in printing 2point text. Canon supports pigmented black ink
out of the box though it also offers a dye black... presently it's
somewhat of a mysterery to me when the pigment kicks in... whether it's
used only when you select plain paper for example or if it would kick
in while using OHP. The pigmented ink for the canon can be had for
less.
http://redrockinnovations.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Sc...
http://redrockinnovations.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Sc...

But I have no clue how either printer peforms on transparancy paper.
But keeping in mind the fact that you were considering a couple of
hundrad to get a bulk feed kit, another printer that's easier to refill
might be justified, unless you had an application for color pigmented
inks as well.

If you want color pigments and the ability to refill your epson, great.
I can see where this would be desirable. But if your application is
just using a pigmented black for OHP paper the canon does this out of
the box and requires so much less in the way of work to refill than
Epson from what i've observed and might offer better defination in
small fonts.

This is also a very good application for a 600+dpi laser.

> I'm still leaning toward Media Street if I do this because they sell
> pigment inks that work in my printer. The dot size on their inks is
> smaller than the OEM inks on my printer and isn't supposed to clog the
> heads on my printer.

I don't believe the issue is passing grit through the printhead. I
believe the issue is the ink drys in the nozzles and blocks it. They
are prone to clog whether you use dye or pigment. I don't know enough
about epson heads to say if there are other long term effects from
using pigments in the dye versions. I know it is done by people who
know epsons clog and rather than buy the $500 printer they buy the $100
printer and throw it out after they burn it out.
Anonymous
September 10, 2005 11:38:00 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

In article <fkEUe.2027$eQ7.292@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com>,
inkystinky@oem.com (measekite the bullshit king) wrote:

> WHAT A BUNCH OF BULLSHIT. HA HA HA HA

You're right."HA HA HA HA" is nothing but bullshit. It adds absolutely
nothing to the discussion and wasn't worth posting.

Jon.
Anonymous
September 11, 2005 2:40:04 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

ha ha ha HA HA HA :-D :-D :-D

O'BEE KANOBEE

Jon O'Brien wrote:

>In article <fkEUe.2027$eQ7.292@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com>,
>inkystinky@oem.com (measekite the bullshit king) wrote:
>
>
>
>>WHAT A BUNCH OF BULLSHIT. HA HA HA HA
>>
>>
>
>You're right."HA HA HA HA" is nothing but bullshit. It adds absolutely
>nothing to the discussion and wasn't worth posting.
>
>Jon.
>
>
Anonymous
September 11, 2005 7:51:12 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

>Is your only application for pigmented ink black and white? >Since your application is printing tiny text and music you might >want to look
>at some of the text reviews for different printers.

Most of my printing is photos. That's why I want to use pigment inks
because prints with pigment inks last a lot longer. If I want to sell a
print for example, I don't want to have a print that's going to fade in
a short time. The only way to make a dye print last in some
environments is if it's in a frame with glass in front.
Now, if I use pigment inks for photos, will text files print okay with
this ink, and will transparencies print okay?
Lynn
September 11, 2005 10:01:37 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

> Most of my printing is photos. That's why I want to use pigment inks
> because prints with pigment inks last a lot longer. If I want to sell a
> print for example, I don't want to have a print that's going to fade in
> a short time. The only way to make a dye print last in some
> environments is if it's in a frame with glass in front.
> Now, if I use pigment inks for photos, will text files print okay with
> this ink, and will transparencies print okay?
> Lynn

Ah, that eliminates the Canon all together. There are dyes that have
good light and gasfastness... but Canon is rated at 30 years under
glass for the new prints using their papers, 10 years according to them
using their papers not under glass. And this is the new and improved
formula.

But I can see why one would switch to pigments, and since you are
actually printing photos a CIS isn't out of the question depending on
how much you actually print. Re-reading your first post you might be
able to get away with refilling your tanks once a week to once every
two weeks.

But really there is no way for most of us on this group to know. I
don't know of anyone here who uses Media Street products. In the end
you'll have to try it your self and see. You can keep the risk minimal
and buy one of their prefilled carts that float at 11 each, or go hog
wild and get the CIS or refillable tanks and run the risk of having to
buy an additional printer for text printing, or flushing your system
and switching buy to dye.
Anonymous
September 11, 2005 10:14:14 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

"kayaker" <llutton@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1126479072.016233.308510@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

> Most of my printing is photos. That's why I want to use pigment inks
> because prints with pigment inks last a lot longer. If I want to sell a
> print for example, I don't want to have a print that's going to fade in
> a short time. The only way to make a dye print last in some
> environments is if it's in a frame with glass in front.
> Now, if I use pigment inks for photos, will text files print okay with
> this ink, and will transparencies print okay?

Pigment inks are generally not compatible with glossy photo media. Some use a
special mix of pigment and dye inks, also some use a gloss optimizer. It is
not likely that you can convert a given dye based printer to pigment inks and
get results that you could sell. This is a system issue - color maps and print
modes would be different.

Regards,
Bob Headrick, MS MVP Printing/Imaging
September 11, 2005 11:22:36 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

> Pigment inks are generally not compatible with glossy photo media.

Decent enough advice.

> Some use a
> special mix of pigment and dye inks, also some use a gloss optimizer.

When you start talking the higher end epsons, there is no gloss
optimizer. If needed one can always apply it via a can-o-spray.

> It is
> not likely that you can convert a given dye based printer to pigment inks and
> get results that you could sell. This is a system issue - color maps and print
> modes would be different.

It's very likely that you can convert a given dye based printer to
pigment inks and get results you can sell. It's not all that uncommon,
just visit Pike Place Market. Ask them what they are using to produce
their prints. I met a few folks using Lyson Cavepaint on r200s.

Bob, this is rather why this person is considering a name like "Media
Street" rather than some bulk ink factory solution. For example they
offer their quadtone black pigmented ink for the r200/300/320 and link
to shareware QuadToneRIP software that covers the use of Media Street
GQ inks on Media Street media.

We're not talking about a thermal system here, we're talking
micropiezo. While it is possible to do pigments in a thermal system...
it's not as easy.

Now I'll agree I don't know the long term effects of using pigments in
epson's dye printers, but the worst that could happen is the printer
would kick the bucket after a while. But we are talking about a $80 to
$180 here, rather than let's say $600 for an Epson 2200, perhaps $400
for a 1280. Heck... look at the r2400. I.e. if someone is making
money off each print... the cost to replace the printer is negliable.
Now it's sad that epson doesn't offer an a4 pigment printer with the
same tank range as their prosumer models, so people have no choice but
to go with the unsupported solution, or rather a solution that is
supported by 3rd parties. This is quite sad as a $300 a4 6 tank
Ultrachrome printer would likely sell very well.
Anonymous
September 14, 2005 9:28:55 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

Thanks to everyone who wrote. I've decided to not buy the bulk color
ink supply. It sounds too iffy for my R320 printer. I may purchase an
Epson larger format pigment after awhile. I'm thinking the 2400 model.
Eventually, I would also like to get the Lyson quad black inks for my
older Epson 900 printer. Again. thanks to everyone who gave me their
opinion
Lynn.
!