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New graphic card and DX10

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September 18, 2006 9:52:37 AM

I was thinking about new computer, however i cannot decide about graphic card; buy now ati 1900xt or wait till new cards using dx 10 will be in purchase.

Does anyone know where can i expected first DX 10 graphic cards? What i found recently are new models ati but still for dx9.

More about : graphic card dx10

September 18, 2006 10:38:05 AM

First DX10 cards: nVIDIA's G80 (November 2006) and ATI's R600 (January/February 2007). R600 will be almost twice as powerful as X1900 XT because of better hardware and DX10 optimisation which allows to render more objects at smaller performance cost, but the card will consume twice the amount of electricity (250W vs 125W). These are just approximate estimates which you can find on different tech sites.

I'd wait for a DX10 card, the R600 to be precise, if you want to save money because X1900 XT will be noticeably outdated already in 2007 when DX10 games start to arrive and you will need to upgrade the video card once again significantly sooner. Besides, G80 and especially R600 will be the first cards that can run Oblivion with decent frame rates with all maximum settings, HDR and 6x quality anti-aliasing on.

I guess the choice depends to a great extent on your current computer and game collection. For example, I have Athlon XP 2400+ with Radeon 9700 and I've assembled my game collection with games that run smoothly on that system. The main reason I don't want to upgrade to X1900 or X1950 is that I would also need to upgrade my game collection to justify the system upgrade, but I am only interested in a few games like Oblivion and Neverwinter Nights 2 from the current generation. Games like Doom 3, Farcry and Quake 4 run fine on my current rig and I also have some even less demanding games for multiplayer gaming. So, what I am going to do is wait till 2007 and assemble a personal new generation game collection of DX10 games and most demanding DX9 games. :p  Lol, I bought Oblivion in April 2006, but gonna open the package only in 2007 when I can experience it on ultra image quality with 25+ FPS. Of course, one curious method of making it to 2007 without upgrading computer is to get hooked on some addictive MMORPG. :D 
September 18, 2006 11:11:45 AM

I´d not go for the nvidia card in autumn because it will not support unified shaders as to the DX10 specification. Most likely Nvidia will release a new DX10 GPU by the beginning of next year which does have unified shaders shortly before or after Vista will be released.

Depending on which GPU you got now it might be interesting for you to wait until next year. But you have to consider that the new DX10 cards will as usual be available in the more expensive versions. So you might need 500 USD. Noone can predict yet when mainstream models will follow. But I doubt anyways that mainstream GPU´s are capable of delivering the performance needed for DX10 to produce average framerates.

At the end we all know that we should wait at least for the first service pack when Microcrap releases a new OS so going for the first release of Vista is for sure no good idea at all.

I´m hoping for some DX10 fixes to get it to work with XP as well ;-) because I do not see what useful advantges Vista shall have. It´s just bringing your hardware to its knees forcing you to upgrade and support the economy. Imho they should focus on fixing all the security problems XP has instead of creating more by releasing Vista which is again based on a win2k core.
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September 18, 2006 11:23:21 AM

thx for posts

The reason I asked is that my current PC with x800xt on board is not strong enough to run smoothly games which I play (Everquest2, Oblivion, etc.). And because my GF is still on AGP I have dilemma to buy new system with ati1900xt now and later change graphic or just to stick with my old trash and wait until new fully developed DX 10 graphic card will be in market.

Probably I will wait but I’m not very happy now with growing up components prices.
September 18, 2006 11:40:29 AM

Quote:
I was thinking about new computer, however i cannot decide about graphic card; buy now ati 1900xt or wait till new cards using dx 10 will be in purchase.

Does anyone know where can i expected first DX 10 graphic cards? What i found recently are new models ati but still for dx9.




People are getting way to worried about this whole DX10 issue. You people need to remember that DX9 will continue to still be the main platform for games well into 2008.

I have an X1900XT and am pleased with it and I play Oblivion on Ultra settings as you call it at 1280X1024 with 2Xaa 8Xaf and HDR with a very lowest minimal of 32 FPS inside heavily vegitated areas.

Only thing I have done is tweak the level of grass thickness in the ini file. NOT the Draw Distance of Grass but the Thickness. I took it from 80 to 110 and you cant even tell it as there is still enough thick grass and vegatation around to get lost in. :lol: 
September 18, 2006 12:09:50 PM

Some reasons why it is better to skip R580 now and upgrade to R600 system later if you have a high-end DX9 card from older generations. :lol: 

1. You can do a "clean" install of Windows Vista, saving yourself from the trouble of formatting hard-drive to get rid of Windows XP or installing Vista on top of XP.
2. You can play DX10 games in DX10 mode and have higher visual settings in DX9 games.
3. DX10 games will dazzle you much more than a guy who has had an X1900XT and is already used to HDR.
4. By the time you upgrade to R600, PSU manufacturers will have had the time to design and manufacture new generation PSUs that are optimised for the power requirements of the DX10 cards.
5. Only 4-5 months until R600!


... and some reasons why to upgrade now to R580:

1. The technology has been here long enough, you know how much X19xx cards consume power, how they perform, what issues they have etc.
2. There will be high demand for DX10 cards when they are released and the price will be high. In contrast, the prices of those X1950XTX cards aren't too high.
3. First versions of Vista could be buggy and there will be only a few good DX10 games in the beginning of 2007.
4. With R580 you can wait longer and upgrade to the second generation of DX10 cards.
5. You get to play newest DX9 games already today.
September 18, 2006 12:22:00 PM

Remember, you can only use DX10 if you have Vista...

That doesn't affect me as much because I get student discounts (bought XP pro for 5 bucks, woot!) but paying 200 bucks for a new OS... shrug

Then again, I never had an XBOX, and I really want to play HALO2...
September 18, 2006 12:27:06 PM

Quote:
Remember, you can only use DX10 if you have Vista...

That doesn't affect me as much because I get student discounts (bought XP pro for 5 bucks, woot!) but paying 200 bucks for a new OS... shrug

Then again, I never had an XBOX, and I really want to play HALO2...


In some countries you can just go to a shop and buy a pirated version of the newest programs and games for 5 bucks or a "licensed" version for 10-15 bucks. :D  I don't know about XBOX, maybe they can get games for consoles for the same price too. I wouldn't be surprised if Windows Vista is already "available in shops" in some parts of the world.
September 18, 2006 1:05:07 PM

I can do that in my country too (Greece). 95% of people here buy pirated software for 6€ per DVD. But u have to buy original OS if u have a shop and u dont want to have problems with the tax inspectors.

Each time u buy a PC here u take a free pirated cd or DVD with the OS u want.


Of corse all those r illegal
September 18, 2006 1:50:56 PM

Who knows? Anything (release date, price, power consumption)
at this point would be pure speculation. If you were to do a quick search, you'd see that this topic has already been covered a million times in this forum.
September 20, 2006 7:56:19 AM

Hehe... 8O ...like this I'm going for the x1950xtx and wait until the end of next year for a Dx10 GPU.

I wanna play NWN2 and C&C3. I DO NOT want to have to upgrade my card more than once in a year! :?
September 20, 2006 9:20:27 AM

NWN 2 and C&C 3 will be DX 9 games anyway, so if you are going to play only these games, X1950 XTX will be a great card for them. Besides, I just know of only two cool DX 10 games that will probably be released in the first half of 2007: Crysis and Alan Wake. You can see screenshots from Alan Wake here


By the way, does "FP16 support" mean that 8800GT(X) cards will be able to run HDR + AA at the same time with SM 3.0 and SM 4.0? As far as I know, current nVIDIA cards can run HDR + AA only with SM 2.0.
September 20, 2006 10:25:33 AM

just to let you all know crysis will be Dx9 (win xp) compatible im planning on buying it when it comes out playing it on my 6800gt then upgrading to a dx10 vista box mid to late 07 and playing it again aswell as the other dx10 (Unreal3?)games.also the bugs will ironed out of vista.
2nd(maybe 3rd) generation dx10 cards availible (at reasonable prices) availibility of quad core processors will be good (at good compatible mobos) ram speeds and quantities will be better to match the quads. and maybe even bluray drives will be reasonably priced then (although i doubt it).
Lastly this gives me 8-12 months to design and build my custom cooling rig and modify a case to put it all in so that ill be ready to overclock from day one!!!!
September 21, 2006 9:19:27 AM

thx for all the info and speculations.

Still have to wait like 2 months and more likely i will stay with DX9 for whole next year and current Win XP. Still too many unanswer questions about the new system and new graphic cards. and i dont want to buy one of thm to learn that 2 months later there will be something much better, improved.

Can you give any predictions about the components prices in next 2 months? Are they gnna increase a lot or not really?

thx
September 21, 2006 10:20:37 AM

dont debate just wait. DX10 CARDS WILL ROCK SO SAVE UP.
September 21, 2006 11:16:22 AM

When Gforce 7900 GT and 7900 GTX were released last year, the latter cost as much as 1000$ during the first month because many people wanted to upgrade to it, but there wasn't enough supply. According to the current predictions, 8800 GT will cost around 400-500$ and 8800 GTX 650-750$. Of course, the prices of DX9 cards should somewhat decrease when the first DX10 cards become available. I am not sure about other components, but at least the prices for DDR2 RAM are rising right now.

It is somewhat uncertain what kind of PSUs DX10 cards will require. Something like a 550 or 650W PSU would be enough, but what seems to be uncertain is whether current PSUs have enough amperage on 12V rails. As an example, R600 might draw 250W or around 21 amps on 12V, while a 650W PSU might have max load of 19 amps on each 12V rail. It would be nice to hear about the PSU issues from the professionals. :wink:
September 21, 2006 11:17:58 AM

you could wait for x1950 pro since it has internal bridge crossfire and by a dx10 gpu later and use the x1950 as physics thats what i'm gonna do any way :D 
September 21, 2006 11:23:51 AM

sounds interesting

Does it mean that later i could add DX10 grpahic card and run a whole system as a Dx 10 with additional crossfire comming from older Dx9 card?
If yes that is a very good solution.
September 21, 2006 11:24:17 AM

That's an interesting idea. :) 

By the way, there could be two alternatives with the DX10 PSU issue: upgrade
to DX9 now and hope that second generation DX10 will have lower power requirements so that you can use your current PSU, or get a first generation DX10 card and a powerful PSU.
September 21, 2006 11:30:01 AM

If you need to upgrade its right now. If you can wait then wait. I usually tell people "at the instant you need something see which is the best price-performance-features-(power consumption too) scene in the market and then make the decision which one to buy."

In computer world, things come and go so quickly make do with whatever you can get. All those people (really in need) if the G80 or RD600 came a nightmare like the nvidia dustbuster 5800 then? And even if they were good, would you think of waiting till the 2nd gen of DX10 cards (so they'll be faster and maybe more stable and lesser power consumption).

OR you can wait forever.
September 21, 2006 11:48:01 AM

I was thinking about the dustbuster too, let's hope that won't be the case. :lol:  If you wait, you can get a first generation DX10 card, skip the second generation and upgrade to the third one. I think the idea of getting an X1950 Pro and using it later as a physics card is really interesting, though. That leaves you more options because you can either get an R600 in Q1 2007 or wait and get R680 in Q3 2007.

By the way, RD600 is ATI's motherboard chipset for C2D and the graphic chipset is R600.
September 21, 2006 12:53:08 PM

Sigh, so very very complicated... I'm running things off a laptop right now with a 128 mb mobility Radeon 9700 Pro... therfore I only play games that were made before 04... sigh...

I tried playing Heroes 5, but it ended up lagging like crazy... so I just sat there and cried... 2 year old laptop can't handle anything now... ugh

Either way, I got 2k to burn on a comp, another 300-500 on a monitor, and however much else I want to take out of bank... thank god for 5.97% and 10% APR on CD's, I'll get 1200 bucks in a little less than a year for nothing... woot.

But yeah, Imma probably build 1Q next year at the latest, since I'm running out of games to play. I can only torrent so many old games... So I'll get the first DX10 card no matter how expensive it is.. ugh
September 21, 2006 2:04:27 PM

Quote:
I was thinking about new computer, however i cannot decide about graphic card; buy now ati 1900xt or wait till new cards using dx 10 will be in purchase.


I am in the same debate as you are right now... I have about $1700 that I can spend on a PC, but I am not sure where to run with it. I currently have an older system, but can play all modern games at decent frame rates... but I know the system is aging. My old Athlon XP and my 6800GT are barely holding up.... so Im pulling my hair out trying to decide what to do I feel your pain!!
September 22, 2006 6:54:45 AM

It would be very interesting to know if it is possible to use other DX9 cards except X1950 Pro and X1650 XT as a physics card with R600. The best option is to get a DX9 card which can be reused later as a physics card when DX10 cards arrive. Alas, poor Ageia is doomed if this will be possible. :roll:
September 22, 2006 8:30:16 AM

Quote:
Alas, poor Ageia is doomed if this will be possible. :roll:


correct me please if i am wrong but Ageia always was closer to nVidia than Ati. I would not be surprise if nvidia would buy them in the near future.
September 22, 2006 7:57:40 PM

Quote:
First DX10 cards: nVIDIA's G80 (November 2006) and ATI's R600 (January/February 2007). R600 will be almost twice as powerful as X1900 XT because of better hardware and DX10 optimisation which allows to render more objects <.............> Of course, one curious method of making it to 2007 without upgrading computer is to get hooked on some addictive MMORPG.


Loved your post, man. I find it strange that some people choose to upgrade now when all the good stuff is just a few months away. I agree with your approach.
September 22, 2006 9:12:20 PM

Quote:
correct me please if i am wrong but Ageia always was closer to nVidia than Ati. I would not be surprise if nvidia would buy them in the near future.


Both Nvidia and Ati were working on proprietary solutions to completely send Aegeia out of the running.

I doubt they've ever been close to either because of that.

As far as a buy-out though, who knows?
September 22, 2006 9:18:47 PM

Quote:
I find it strange that some people choose to upgrade now when all the good stuff is just a few months away. I agree with your approach.


Do you? To be honest, I find it strange when people hold off for better technology.

We've been through this time and time again... people bought 9700 PROs about 2 years before DirectX 9 was 'must have'. By the time it was useful, alot of them had upgraded anyway.

Then, people bought Geforce 6x00 series cards for SM 3.0, when it's usefulness is just starting to be real useful even today. Once again, alot of people who bought the 6800's for their longevity have upgraded before their capabilities were exploited. Many have never even used HDR before upgrding to the Next Best Thing™

A $240 X1900 XT 256mb is a good, solid card useful for at least two years to come, DirectX 10 release or no.

And when Vista is pushed back another 6 months, it'll seem like an even better deal... :wink:
September 22, 2006 10:12:26 PM

Quote:
A $240 X1900 XT 256mb is a good, solid card useful for at least two years to come, DirectX 10 release or no.


It is a good buy. No question about that.

Quote:
And when Vista is pushed back another 6 months, it'll seem like an even better deal...


Hehe, your logic is impeccable, as always, Cleeve. That's why you are on my buddy list. What is the deal with this "buddy" thing anyway?

As for 6xx0 series of cards, personally I went with Gf6800 Ultra AGP back then not so much because it had some forward features (such as SM3.0) but because it was the most powerful card and I knew it would last a long, long time. I am still using it and totally honestly I do not feel compelled to upgrade just yet.

Seriously, I can still play every current game (including Oblivion) with visual settings and FPS which may not be the absolute best possible but are good enough.

I doubt that a X1900 XT based system will last 2 years but I am sure that a next gen GPU + Core 2 Duo/Quadro with 4 Gigs of PC2-8888 + Vista + DX10 will definitely last 3+ years

My logic is something like this: X1900 XT is a fairly recent card and until a couple of months ago it was the most powerful card in the world. X1900 XT is about 50% faster than my Gf6800U. It took nV and ATI about 3 years to come out with a card that is 50% faster than mine. However, if preliminary reports pan out, next gen cards will be 50% faster than X1900 XT and it will happen in just a few months, not years. Does this make any sense to you? (I am asking seriously)

EDIT: Oops, I was actually thinking X1900 XTX which is 50% faster (according to VGA charts anyway). X1900 XT is more like 40-45% faster

My system (specs below) may look like a dinosaur but it certainly does not perform that way.

Everything at stock:

- Win XP Pro SP2
- ABIT IS7 motherboard with gigabit LAN and Realtech 6.1 on-board audio (disabled)
- Pentium 4C Northwood 3.0GHz with HT
- 1Gb of dual channel DDR-400 (PC 3200) RAM
- eVGA GeForce 6800 Ultra AGP
- Sound Blaster Live! X-Gamer (man, my favorite part ever. Never loved a single computer part better than this sound card; it has survived through 3 PCs and I only build a new PC every 2.5-3 years... this thing does great 5.1 sound and all that... and though it is almost 4 years older than the on-board 6.1 Realtech I swear that SB Live Gamer wipes the floor with this Realtech crap)
- Dual 120Gb Seagate Barracudas SATA
- DVD drive
- CD-RW drive
- Floppy drive

P.S. My 3DMark 05 score is in the low 6000 if I remember correctly. I will run it tonight and post an EDIT here. Your system is pretty uber. If mine gets a score which is only 40% lower I will be twice as proud of it :) 

Okay. EDIT 02: 3DMark05 score is 5759

But do you really believe that your system will not become hopelessly obsolete in 6-8 months? Again, I am asking seriously. No pun intended.
September 22, 2006 10:40:17 PM

There has to be games written for DX10, and in moderately good numbers before DX10/unified hardware will become viable to the consumer. These people that keep saying "waite, the good stuff is just a few months away" need to pull their heads out of their arse and think about it.
September 23, 2006 12:00:20 AM

Quote:
There has to be games written for DX10, and in moderately good numbers before DX10/unified hardware will become viable to the consumer. These people that keep saying "waite, the good stuff is just a few months away" need to pull their heads out of their arse and think about it.


Even if what you say is true, DX10 or not, next gen cards are expected to be 50% faster than the best cards of today. So check where YOUR head is.
September 23, 2006 12:15:22 AM

Pacheemu ti takoy galuboy? :roll:
September 23, 2006 12:21:17 AM

Quote:
Pacheemu ti takoy galuboy? :roll:


Save your impotent childish insults for someone who cares (i.e. someone who's at the same rock-bottom level as you.)
September 23, 2006 12:24:19 AM

Ootebya nyet yayeesav :lol: 
September 23, 2006 1:34:25 AM

Just so that you know: I will no longer entertain your imbecilic remarks. If you wish to waste your time, then be my guest and continue. Prove to everyone what a moron you are.
September 25, 2006 5:43:16 PM

Cool!


From: "Fuad Abazovic" <fudo@theinquirer.net>


Hi Morton,

i think you will be able to use these cards as the physic ones for
sure

Fudo


Friday, September 22, 2006, 9:19:57 AM, you wrote:

> Dear Fuad Abazovic,

> On September 20 you posted an article in which you mention that
> X1950 Pro and X1650XT will have similar internal Xfire architecture
> as R600. Do you think it will be possible to reuse an X1950 Pro or
> an X1650 XT card as a physics card in the future with R600?


--
Best regards,
Fuad mailto:fudo@theinquirer.net
September 27, 2006 12:22:38 PM

A small update to this thread, a list of ten PC games which will definitely or most likely feature DX10:

Crysis
Bioshock
Halo 2
Hellgate: London
Alan Wake
Assassin's Creed
Unreal 3
UT 2007
Flight Simulator X
Far Cry 2
September 28, 2006 12:15:32 AM

Guys this is my system

(CPU2) Intel® Pentium® 4 CPU 3.00GHz @ 2998MHz (ASUSTeK Computer Inc. P4C800-E mainboard) (RAM) 1.5GB, 0.99GB free (HDDs) 223GB, 44.1GB free
RADEON X850 Series - Secondary (256MB), 1280x1024x32, 60Hz (OS) Microsoft Windows XP Professional (SP2), 7h 11m 59s uptime, 6d 6h 4m 43s uptime record


Im really interesting in buying a new pc, but i know DX10 and vista is coming, and who knows what 4core is coming out, but should i just get a new top of the line now, or wait? Cause like most people said the new Dx10 cards will have issues and be overpriced. Cause i was thinking about getting a new c2d cpu, and either a Nvida 7950 X2, or like Dual 7900 GTXs or something.

Think i should wait a couple months? cause my fear and LOTR and company of heroes is a little laggy at high levels :) 
September 28, 2006 6:22:17 AM

I would wait a few months to find out how G80 performs. Right now nobody knows how DX10 cards will compare to Gforce 7950 GX2, but after 8-9 weeks or even earlier there should be reviews of G80 sample cards. It's also likely that prices for DX9 cards will decrease when the G80 cards are released. Some people will also start to sell used high-end DX9 cards even cheaper if G80 cards turn out to be noticeably better.
!