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Smudging: Laser Ink verses Inkjet Ink

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Anonymous
September 15, 2005 6:35:46 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers,alt.comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

By "smudge", I mean what happens when the ink remains somewhat
smearable on the paper after, perhaps even some time after, a good
print has been made - like when a thumb can smear the ink.

Inkjet ink sometimes smudges. I've never owned a color laser printer.
Is laser ink ("toner" perhaps is the term?) more stable on the
paper? That is, is it less likely to smudge?

--
|||||||||||||||| Nehmo Sergheyev ||||||||||||||||
Anonymous
September 15, 2005 7:28:38 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers,alt.comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

I agree with Ed that printing by a laser printer, whether black&white
or color, shouldn't smudge at all because the toner is fused to the
paper by a flash of intense heat that "melts" the toner to the paper
and hardens in an instant.

However, some prints from an inkjet printer can smudge immediately
after printing, and when the prints are photos from some printers, it
may take hours before the print is reliably smudge-free. Inkjet prints,
whether photos or text, can also easily smudge and run when dampened
with a wet finger or a drop of water, which is not true of prints from
laser printers.

I've had both laser and inkjet printers (Brother & Canon respectively)
and they worked this way.

Laser printers are more reliably smudge-free, but I have also heard
that prints from a laser printer may stick together if pressed together
for a while, for instance, in a laser-printed book where the pages are
compressed together for a long time. Is this true? Does anyone have any
experience with laser-printed book pages sticking together in the long
run?
Is it true or not?


Ed Ruf wrote:
> On 15 Sep 2005 14:35:46 -0700, in comp.periphs.printers "Nehmo"
> <nehmo54@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >By "smudge", I mean what happens when the ink remains somewhat
> >smearable on the paper after, perhaps even some time after, a good
> >print has been made - like when a thumb can smear the ink.
> >
> >Inkjet ink sometimes smudges. I've never owned a color laser printer.
> >Is laser ink ("toner" perhaps is the term?) more stable on the
> >paper? That is, is it less likely to smudge?
>
> If the toner is properly fused to the paper, it shouldn't smudge at all.
> ----------
> Ed Ruf Lifetime AMA# 344007 (Usenet@EdwardG.Ruf.com)
> http://EdwardGRuf.com
Anonymous
September 15, 2005 9:45:50 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers,alt.comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

On 15 Sep 2005 14:35:46 -0700, in comp.periphs.printers "Nehmo"
<nehmo54@hotmail.com> wrote:

>By "smudge", I mean what happens when the ink remains somewhat
>smearable on the paper after, perhaps even some time after, a good
>print has been made - like when a thumb can smear the ink.
>
>Inkjet ink sometimes smudges. I've never owned a color laser printer.
>Is laser ink ("toner" perhaps is the term?) more stable on the
>paper? That is, is it less likely to smudge?

If the toner is properly fused to the paper, it shouldn't smudge at all.
----------
Ed Ruf Lifetime AMA# 344007 (Usenet@EdwardG.Ruf.com)
http://EdwardGRuf.com
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Anonymous
September 15, 2005 11:16:29 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers,alt.comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

On 15 Sep 2005 15:28:38 -0700, in comp.periphs.printers
william.pease@verizon.net wrote:

>I agree with Ed that printing by a laser printer, whether black&white
>or color, shouldn't smudge at all because the toner is fused to the
>paper by a flash of intense heat that "melts" the toner to the paper
>and hardens in an instant.
>
>However, some prints from an inkjet printer can smudge immediately
>after printing, and when the prints are photos from some printers, it
>may take hours before the print is reliably smudge-free. Inkjet prints,
>whether photos or text, can also easily smudge and run when dampened
>with a wet finger or a drop of water, which is not true of prints from
>laser printers.

Smudging while the ink is still wet can be an issue with some inkjets on
some paper, especially films. But there are some water resistant or even
proof combinations out there.

>Laser printers are more reliably smudge-free, but I have also heard
>that prints from a laser printer may stick together if pressed together
>for a while, for instance, in a laser-printed book where the pages are
>compressed together for a long time. Is this true? Does anyone have any
>experience with laser-printed book pages sticking together in the long
>run?
>Is it true or not?

Yes, it can be an issue and also with standard copiers using the same type
of fused toner process in my experience.
>
>Ed Ruf wrote:
>> On 15 Sep 2005 14:35:46 -0700, in comp.periphs.printers "Nehmo"
>> <nehmo54@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >By "smudge", I mean what happens when the ink remains somewhat
>> >smearable on the paper after, perhaps even some time after, a good
>> >print has been made - like when a thumb can smear the ink.
>> >
>> >Inkjet ink sometimes smudges. I've never owned a color laser printer.
>> >Is laser ink ("toner" perhaps is the term?) more stable on the
>> >paper? That is, is it less likely to smudge?
>>
>> If the toner is properly fused to the paper, it shouldn't smudge at all.
>> ----------
>> Ed Ruf Lifetime AMA# 344007 (Usenet@EdwardG.Ruf.com)
>> http://EdwardGRuf.com

----------
Ed Ruf Lifetime AMA# 344007 (Usenet@EdwardG.Ruf.com)
http://EdwardGRuf.com
Anonymous
September 15, 2005 11:42:05 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers,alt.comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

<william.pease@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:1126823318.581931.326310@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>I agree with Ed that printing by a laser printer, whether black&white
> or color, shouldn't smudge at all because the toner is fused to the
> paper by a flash of intense heat that "melts" the toner to the paper
> and hardens in an instant.
>
> However, some prints from an inkjet printer can smudge immediately
> after printing, and when the prints are photos from some printers, it
> may take hours before the print is reliably smudge-free. Inkjet prints,
> whether photos or text, can also easily smudge and run when dampened
> with a wet finger or a drop of water, which is not true of prints from
> laser printers.
>
> I've had both laser and inkjet printers (Brother & Canon respectively)
> and they worked this way.
>
> Laser printers are more reliably smudge-free, but I have also heard
> that prints from a laser printer may stick together if pressed together
> for a while, for instance, in a laser-printed book where the pages are
> compressed together for a long time. Is this true? Does anyone have any
> experience with laser-printed book pages sticking together in the long
> run?
> Is it true or not?

Laser printed pages can stick together if the toner was poorly made or is of
low quality. It can stick toner-to-paper or toner-to-toner in a duplex
printed document as in a bound book. Most reputable manufacturers test for
these faults [called document offset in the industry] by making a special
print target then pressing a number of pages together under a reasonable
pressure while heating above room temperature. A wax in the toner reduces
document offset by providing "release". Some paper substrates are worse
than others as their coating can interact with the toner.

mike


>
>
> Ed Ruf wrote:
>> On 15 Sep 2005 14:35:46 -0700, in comp.periphs.printers "Nehmo"
>> <nehmo54@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >By "smudge", I mean what happens when the ink remains somewhat
>> >smearable on the paper after, perhaps even some time after, a good
>> >print has been made - like when a thumb can smear the ink.
>> >
>> >Inkjet ink sometimes smudges. I've never owned a color laser printer.
>> >Is laser ink ("toner" perhaps is the term?) more stable on the
>> >paper? That is, is it less likely to smudge?
>>
>> If the toner is properly fused to the paper, it shouldn't smudge at all.
>> ----------
>> Ed Ruf Lifetime AMA# 344007 (Usenet@EdwardG.Ruf.com)
>> http://EdwardGRuf.com
>
Anonymous
September 16, 2005 2:50:08 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers,alt.comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

On 15 Sep 2005 14:35:46 -0700, "Nehmo" <nehmo54@hotmail.com> wrote:

>By "smudge", I mean what happens when the ink remains somewhat
>smearable on the paper after, perhaps even some time after, a good
>print has been made - like when a thumb can smear the ink.

Ink are usually water based and will take a while to dry out after
it's printed. Some special paper and transparency will take longer to
dry and be smudge resistant than regular paper. Also the ink will
smear if the paper gets wet.

>Inkjet ink sometimes smudges. I've never owned a color laser printer.
>Is laser ink ("toner" perhaps is the term?) more stable on the
>paper? That is, is it less likely to smudge?

Toner don't smudge unless you get the paer really warm. They are
fused to the paper by high heat and will be fine right out of the
printer.
--
When you hear the toilet flush, and hear the words "uh oh", it's already
too late. - by anonymous Mother in Austin, TX
To reply, replace digi.mon with phreaker.net
September 16, 2005 12:01:38 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers,alt.comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

[snip]

> Laser printers are more reliably smudge-free, but I have also heard
> that prints from a laser printer may stick together if pressed together
> for a while, for instance, in a laser-printed book where the pages are
> compressed together for a long time. Is this true? Does anyone have any
> experience with laser-printed book pages sticking together in the long
> run?
> Is it true or not?
>
[snip]

Is true. And worse is the problem of sticking to sheet protectors after an
extending period. I've never put a photo from an inkjet in a standard
office sheet protector, I don't know what the reaction would be......

Mark
September 16, 2005 2:29:53 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers,alt.comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

In message <1126823318.581931.326310@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
william.pease@verizon.net writes
>Laser printers are more reliably smudge-free, but I have also heard
>that prints from a laser printer may stick together if pressed together
>for a while, for instance, in a laser-printed book where the pages are
>compressed together for a long time. Is this true? Does anyone have any
>experience with laser-printed book pages sticking together in the long
>run?

I had some laser printed paper sitting in a hot sunny window for a
couple of weeks, they stuck together a little bit but no discernible
problems when separating them.

--
Timothy
Anonymous
September 16, 2005 5:26:19 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers,alt.comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

On Fri, 16 Sep 2005 08:01:38 -0500, "Mark" <marklb@bogus.net> wrote:

>Is true. And worse is the problem of sticking to sheet protectors after an
>extending period. I've never put a photo from an inkjet in a standard
>office sheet protector, I don't know what the reaction would be......

If the ink jet paper stays dry, it'll be fine. But if water gets in,
you'll have tie-dyed paper and plastic sheet.
--
When you hear the toilet flush, and hear the words "uh oh", it's already
too late. - by anonymous Mother in Austin, TX
To reply, replace digi.mon with phreaker.net
Anonymous
September 16, 2005 6:12:38 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers,alt.comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

In article <11ilgia191g4724@corp.supernews.com>, "Mark" <marklb@bogus.net>
wrote:

> Is true. And worse is the problem of sticking to sheet protectors after an
> extending period. I've never put a photo from an inkjet in a standard
> office sheet protector, I don't know what the reaction would be......

Mark & Nehmo-

I've never observed the problem with common sheet protectors, but there is
a reaction between plastic laser and copier toners and some other plastics
such as PVC. In fact, I've used sheet protectors to prevent the sticking
problem with other plastics.

Most often, the problem is noticed on the front page of a document bound
in a PVC or vinyl notebook. The toner sticks to the inside front cover.
When peeled off, either some of the toner remains on the vinyl, or the
paper tears. Some office supply stores sell plastic notebooks that they
claim won't do this. An example is the Avery "Non-Stick View Binder".

As others have noted, duplex-printed pages may sometimes stick together,
but this takes a while longer to occur. I recently noticed it on some
documents printed five or ten years ago when I cleaned out a file
cabinet. Separating the pages was usually successful, but there were
sometimes "ghost" images left behind on the facing page.

My experience with inkjets has varied. Smudging of freshly printed pages
is usually only a problem when the they first come out of the printer.
One bad example was when I printed on the wrong side of some vinyl bumper
sticker sheets. After several hours the ink hadn't dried. When I
realized what had happened, I wiped it off and reprinted on the correct
side!

Whether or not the ink is water resistant depends on the printer. Prints
from older Canon and HP printers I have, never do become permanent. A
splash of water will ruin them. Prints from couple of newer Epsons seem
to be somewhat impervious to water after they have dried. One uses
pigment-based ink. The other is called "DURAbrite", but I don't know if
it is dye or pigment.

Fred
Anonymous
September 17, 2005 3:21:36 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers,alt.comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

Both color and black toner are made up of a mixture of pigments and dyes
in a plastic powder.

The toner powders are heated on the paper to melt them. Occasionally,
the black may crack off over time, but the color seems to use less matte
materials and therefore adhere better to the paper.

Art

Nehmo wrote:

> By "smudge", I mean what happens when the ink remains somewhat
> smearable on the paper after, perhaps even some time after, a good
> print has been made - like when a thumb can smear the ink.
>
> Inkjet ink sometimes smudges. I've never owned a color laser printer.
> Is laser ink ("toner" perhaps is the term?) more stable on the
> paper? That is, is it less likely to smudge?
>
Anonymous
September 17, 2005 3:26:00 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers,alt.comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

It would be very unusual for laser prints to "stick together" on their
own, even under pressure. What can cause a laser print to stick to
something is if there is a plastic in use, especially vinyl, which seems
to begin to melt the toner materials onto the vinyl from the platicizers
in the toys.


Art

william.pease@verizon.net wrote:

> I agree with Ed that printing by a laser printer, whether black&white
> or color, shouldn't smudge at all because the toner is fused to the
> paper by a flash of intense heat that "melts" the toner to the paper
> and hardens in an instant.
>
> However, some prints from an inkjet printer can smudge immediately
> after printing, and when the prints are photos from some printers, it
> may take hours before the print is reliably smudge-free. Inkjet prints,
> whether photos or text, can also easily smudge and run when dampened
> with a wet finger or a drop of water, which is not true of prints from
> laser printers.
>
> I've had both laser and inkjet printers (Brother & Canon respectively)
> and they worked this way.
>
> Laser printers are more reliably smudge-free, but I have also heard
> that prints from a laser printer may stick together if pressed together
> for a while, for instance, in a laser-printed book where the pages are
> compressed together for a long time. Is this true? Does anyone have any
> experience with laser-printed book pages sticking together in the long
> run?
> Is it true or not?
>
>
> Ed Ruf wrote:
>
>>On 15 Sep 2005 14:35:46 -0700, in comp.periphs.printers "Nehmo"
>><nehmo54@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>By "smudge", I mean what happens when the ink remains somewhat
>>>smearable on the paper after, perhaps even some time after, a good
>>>print has been made - like when a thumb can smear the ink.
>>>
>>>Inkjet ink sometimes smudges. I've never owned a color laser printer.
>>>Is laser ink ("toner" perhaps is the term?) more stable on the
>>>paper? That is, is it less likely to smudge?
>>
>>If the toner is properly fused to the paper, it shouldn't smudge at all.
>>----------
>>Ed Ruf Lifetime AMA# 344007 (Usenet@EdwardG.Ruf.com)
>>http://EdwardGRuf.com
>
>
Anonymous
September 18, 2005 2:31:01 AM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

If you use an Epson printer with the all pigmented inks you will find that
you can't smudge it and it very water resistant.






"Nehmo" <nehmo54@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1126820146.476968.158110@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> By "smudge", I mean what happens when the ink remains somewhat
> smearable on the paper after, perhaps even some time after, a good
> print has been made - like when a thumb can smear the ink.
>
> Inkjet ink sometimes smudges. I've never owned a color laser printer.
> Is laser ink ("toner" perhaps is the term?) more stable on the
> paper? That is, is it less likely to smudge?
>
> --
> |||||||||||||||| Nehmo Sergheyev ||||||||||||||||
>
Anonymous
September 18, 2005 12:10:45 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers,alt.comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

Ed Ruf wrote:
> If the toner is properly fused to the paper, it shouldn't smudge at all.

Which is an 'if' that nobody in the thread has elaborated on yet, so I
will. :) 

Most laser printers have some combination of front panel menus or
driver
options for selecting the type and weight of media being used (paper,
cards,
labels, transparencies, etc.) The printer uses that information in
part to
vary the fuser temperature, the speed of feeding media through the
fuser, or
both. (Typically, heavier media -> warmer fuser or slower travel
through fuser).

That means you can get improper fusing if the printer setting
mismatched the
media type. You might run, say, fifty sheets of card stock with the
printer
set for bond paper, and the first several sheets would be ok, but later
sheets
won't be completely fused - you can scrub the toner off in places with
your
thumb. What happened seems to be that the heavy paper, at the higher
feed
rate for light paper, carried heat from the fuser faster than the
fuser's
capacity to reheat, so the fuser temperature was gradually decreasing
during
the job.
Anonymous
September 18, 2005 10:07:39 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers,alt.comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

On 18 Sep 2005 08:10:45 -0700, in comp.periphs.printers "Chapman Flack"
<googrou@anastigmatix.net> wrote:

>Ed Ruf wrote:
>> If the toner is properly fused to the paper, it shouldn't smudge at all.
>
>Which is an 'if' that nobody in the thread has elaborated on yet, so I
>will. :) 
>
>Most laser printers have some combination of front panel menus or
>driver
>options for selecting the type and weight of media being used (paper,
>cards,
>labels, transparencies, etc.) The printer uses that information in
>part to
>vary the fuser temperature, the speed of feeding media through the
>fuser, or
>both. (Typically, heavier media -> warmer fuser or slower travel
>through fuser).
>
>That means you can get improper fusing if the printer setting
>mismatched the
>media type. You might run, say, fifty sheets of card stock with the
>printer
>set for bond paper, and the first several sheets would be ok, but later
>sheets
>won't be completely fused - you can scrub the toner off in places with
>your
>thumb. What happened seems to be that the heavy paper, at the higher
>feed
>rate for light paper, carried heat from the fuser faster than the
>fuser's
>capacity to reheat, so the fuser temperature was gradually decreasing
>during
>the job.

You can also access these settings through the printer driver. One reason
to take the time and select the proper media.

----------
Ed Ruf Lifetime AMA# 344007 (Usenet@EdwardG.Ruf.com)
http://EdwardGRuf.com
September 19, 2005 12:29:03 PM

Archived from groups: comp.periphs.printers,alt.comp.periphs.printers (More info?)

In message <1127056244.992128.175460@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
Chapman Flack <googrou@anastigmatix.net> writes
>
>That means you can get improper fusing if the printer setting
>mismatched the
>media type. You might run, say, fifty sheets of card stock with the
>printer
>set for bond paper, and the first several sheets would be ok, but later
>sheets
>won't be completely fused - you can scrub the toner off in places with
>your
>thumb. What happened seems to be that the heavy paper, at the higher
>feed
>rate for light paper, carried heat from the fuser faster than the
>fuser's
>capacity to reheat, so the fuser temperature was gradually decreasing
>during
>the job.

At the end of the fuser roller's life on my old Magicolor machine the
toner would start flaking off on the glossy laser paper, although it
would manage normal copy paper for another thousand or so pages.

--
Timothy
!