How pure should isopropyl alcohol be for cleaning the HS/CPU

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Im having trouble finding pure isopropyl alcohol (can only find 70%), does anyone think I will notice much of a difference in performance vs something in the 90-99% range? I can order off the internet, but it would be nice to find something local instead. Thanks,

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joset

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Im having trouble finding pure isopropyl alcohol (can only find 70%), does anyone think I will notice much of a difference in performance vs something in the 90-99% range?

Well, as long as you don't drink it! :wink:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubbing_alcohol

Sure! "Wikied"! :lol:

Whatever concentration above 70% is good enough, for the purpose; however, since it contains water, I'd go for specific cleaning products, such as "Tim Clean", from Akasa.

(This was a very sui generis thread, indeed!)


Cheers!
 

paybax

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Scribbs,
I'm a Pharmacy Tech where I live, so I know about alcohol. There is NO difference which type of alcohol you use, because either one will do the job. It's the alcohol BASE content that removes the residual thermal paste..........the 99% alcohol will just evaporate quicker. If I were you, I would use the 70 % isopropyl stuff. That way, if you have to rub a bit to remove the leftover GUNK from the heat sink and cpu cover, it won't dry up right away.
Hope this helps

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jimw428

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Most all major drug stores in the USA carry 91% pure isopropyl alcohol. Use it, it's cheap and works like a dream. I've seen numerous concoctions recommended on this forum, many of them petroleum based. They should be avoided as they will leave a filmy residue that reduces the effectiveness of the thermal paste/compound.
 

clue69less

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If you do not have AS5, then some vinegar or something that can remove metalic oxide.

Have you used vinegar as a final cleaning agent before putting on the thermal grease? Vinegar contains a reasonably high concentration of polar impurities, some that are non-volatile. So I'd expect it to leave residuals. Who knows, maybe a thin film of polar gunk is a good surface prep for a HS grease?
 

drifter_888

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Wow. I haven't built my first system yet but I am going to before the end of the year if not the end of October. After reading this though why would the CPU need to be cleaned this efficently and what would be the best method to do so? I would think an out of the box CPU wouldn't need anything other then a light wipedown or are we talking about reusing a CPU or possibly changing a heatsink? If someone could help explain please let me know. I was just going to wipe the new CPU down with alcohol at best and that is only if the directions said so.
 

clue69less

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If you do not have AS5, then some vinegar or something that can remove metalic oxide.

Have you used vinegar as a final cleaning agent before putting on the thermal grease? Vinegar contains a reasonably high concentration of polar impurities, some that are non-volatile. So I'd expect it to leave residuals. Who knows, maybe a thin film of polar gunk is a good surface prep for a HS grease?

No I haven't actually, I suggest it because acetic acid is good at removing oxidation from metal surfaces. Better than that is ascorbic acid, but I would not recommend orange juice on your CPU :) ....

For sure, unless your CPU has put in an order for a screwdriver. Regardless, an acid like acetic will react with an oxidized metal surface and in fact will cause some oxidation itself. But again it's possible that the residuals in vinegar could form a sort of passivating layer on the IHS. There are many different kinds/grades of vinegar that are made from various processes so one would expect different levels and chemistries of residuals. Grocery store vinegar is about 95% water. Check this out, particularly this:

"WHAT IS VINEGAR?
Vinegar comes from the bacterial oxidation of alcoholic drinks such as wine and cider, and the formation of ethanoic (acetic) acid gives vinegar its characteristic smell. However, ethanoic acid is by no means the only acid in vinegar. It is not even the most predominant acid - it is simply the one, which, owing to its volatility, makes its presence known! Many other acids are also present, such as tartaric, malic, lactic, citric and succinic acids. There are probably many more besides, but since these latter acids are non-volatile they have no smell, yet they still contribute to the overall acidity of the vinegar. You will need to look up the structures of these non-volatile acids."

Since vinegar is distilled, many of these other compounds are reduced or removed entirely but like most commodity natural products, it's far from pure.

[AS5 works well becuase it is a colloidal suspension of silver oxide particles, which has a good thermal conductivity but poor electrical conductivity. However, most metal oxides (paricularly CuO or CuO2) are bad thermal conductors so it is best to have a well polished, oxide free surface.

I agree completely with that logic and have long thought that lapping the IHS can help lower CPU temps because of this. My last step before applying the bead of AS5 is to take a small amount of AS5 on a lint-free cloth, dilute it with ethanol and polish the IHS and HS surfaces. I might have to try a vinegar step right before the alcohol/AS5 step next time.

Edit: typo and grammar
 

clue69less

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Wow. I haven't built my first system yet but I am going to before the end of the year if not the end of October. After reading this though why would the CPU need to be cleaned this efficently and what would be the best method to do so? I would think an out of the box CPU wouldn't need anything other then a light wipedown or are we talking about reusing a CPU or possibly changing a heatsink? If someone could help explain please let me know. I was just going to wipe the new CPU down with alcohol at best and that is only if the directions said so.

The recommendations in this thread for sure apply to removing existing thermal grease, but also for a new CPU. Look at Jack's procedure above and the discussion of what is accomplished by the cleaning. You also might want to search out the benefits of polishing the IHS. I've seen it discussed on threads here on Toms and on other enthusiast sites but do not have the links stored on this laptop, only on my desktop back home.
 

jimw428

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Wow. I haven't built my first system yet but I am going to before the end of the year if not the end of October. After reading this though why would the CPU need to be cleaned this efficently and what would be the best method to do so?

http://www.arcticsilver.com/arctic_silver_instructions.htm

Well you could follow the advice and instructions posted by the "experts" here ( many of which sound like they are making a salad or preparing a vaginal douche) or you could simply follow the manufacturers directions posted above.

Call me crazy, but I actually think Arctic Silver knows what cleaning and application methods are the most effective. Unless you tried all these suggestions, with all combinations of CPU's and HSFs, and tested before and after results, how would you know which recommendation to use? BTW, note the consistent reference to isopropyl alcohol in the AS5 cleaning instructions.

Let the flaming begin!
 

Scribs

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Thanks for all the replies guys, Im glad to see this spawned such a fruitful discussion heh. I was figuring that 70% would maybe take a little more elbow grease, and possibly a little airflow to dry off fully, but that it wouldnt be too much worse.

On the topic of preparing a new HS/cpu, I think it also tends to depend on the HS too. Some HS come in a much smoother state than others. There are some that come with a real mirror finish, in which polishing probably would only muck it up (as they are better than you would probably do), while others come in a fairly smooth state (which might benefit from polishing). Unless you are super hardcore, I think maybe just a slight rub down with isopropyl alcohol for both the HS and CPU would do.

Also note however that some HS come with thermal paste pre-applied. In that case, if you dont have AS5 or something to replace it you should probably not remove it, and if you do have AS5 you definitly need to replace it.
 

clue69less

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You also might want to search out the benefits of polishing the IHS. I've seen it discussed on threads here on Toms and on other enthusiast sites but do not have the links stored on this laptop, only on my desktop back home.
Well, there are two ways to take the word 'polishing'.
One is lapping to a high degree of flatness & smoothness then polishing it to make it look like a mirror, voiding the warranty in the process.
The virtually eliminate the need for thermal paste providing the two surfaces have been treated and requires the smoothest thermal paste on market (AS Ceramique) at minimal amount to achieve maximum conduction.

That's the plan I like. Having been a professional metallographer, flatness and mirror finish are my mantra. Voiding warranties are part and parcel in our search for overclocking perfection. Om mani padme hom.

[The other polishing is like wax polishing... an layer of insulation... :lol:

I have not used that one before! Thou shalt not wax thy heatsink (except HSs made by Maserati)!!!
 

joset

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That's the plan I like. Having been a professional metallographer, flatness and mirror finish are my mantra. Voiding warranties are part and parcel in our search for overclocking perfection. Om mani padme hom.

Well then, here you have it, from Akasa to Cooler Master, from tooth paste to 'vegemite'. :lol:

http://www.dansdata.com/goop.htm

By the way, nice buddist mantra you've got there! :wink:


Cheers!
 

joset

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Hehe, crazy Dan. He writes for AtomicMPC and lives in the land of Aussie. :D
One of the people on my list, haven't mentioned him here for a long arse time... (kinda forgot about him... :oops: )

He's done a nice & funny job, that's for sure! :lol:


Cheers!
 

pIII_Man

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You guys are making such a big deal about this, its silly.

Water works, with some elbow grease, any non-polar (organic) solvent should work out ok. 70% IPA is fine, ethyl alcohol should be good, i wouldnt go much crazier than that. I think acetone is just overkill, im sorry, it doesnt take much to remove a TIM with simple ipa.

About removing oxides, this is kind of stupid, im sorry, because its just going to oxidize again. So unless you plan on doing this over and over again, it seems useless.
 

turpit

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You guys are making such a big deal about this, its silly.

Water works, with some elbow grease, any non-polar (organic) solvent should work out ok. 70% IPA is fine, ethyl alcohol should be good, i wouldnt go much crazier than that. I think acetone is just overkill, im sorry, it doesnt take much to remove a TIM with simple ipa.

About removing oxides, this is kind of stupid, im sorry, because its just going to oxidize again. So unless you plan on doing this over and over again, it seems useless.

It takes a few days to oxidize more than a few monolayers of oxide, so unless it takes you 48 hours to seat an HSF, then yeah it makes a big deal.

Unless your talking about aluminum
 

turpit

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You guys are making such a big deal about this, its silly.

Water works, with some elbow grease, any non-polar (organic) solvent should work out ok. 70% IPA is fine, ethyl alcohol should be good, i wouldnt go much crazier than that. I think acetone is just overkill, im sorry, it doesnt take much to remove a TIM with simple ipa.

About removing oxides, this is kind of stupid, im sorry, because its just going to oxidize again. So unless you plan on doing this over and over again, it seems useless.

This actually brings up an interesting little point. I read through a thread in another column (awhile back) a very interesting discussion on aluminum and copper. The poster, while very knowledgeable, never addressed the problem of aluminum oxide.

My little library is woefully thin in the material sciences department, and I’ve often wondered if the "standard" thermal properties generally listed for Al was for oxidized AL or pure Al. The reason this is interesting is while pure aluminum is one of the more ductile metals, with an advantageous heat transfer coefficient, Aluminum Oxide is one of the harder substances known to man. I wouldn’t guess that Al and Al2O3 have the same heat transfer coefficient.

For welding aluminum, Al2O3 plays a very significant role. To successfully weld aluminum, the oxide layer must first be removed (usually by solvent) prior to welding. Failure to due so will result in failure to penetrate the metal thus a failed weld. This being the case, I would guess AL2O3 also impacts heat transfer properties of Al. As such, removing the oxide layer from Al may not be so "stupid"

Why? Simple. In order to oxidize, a material must be exposed to oxygen. No exposure = no oxidation. With thermal grease fillingt eh gap between the HSF and CPU heat spreader, there is no way for the oxygen to reach or react with wither the HSF face or CPU heat spreader, so its not going to "oxidize again".

Additionally, certain thermal greases I have used (I believe the compound packaged with Cooler Master was one of these) actually seemed to have some from of mild solvent mixed in it.

Clearly, this could have an impact on the efficiency of a either a pure Al or AlCu HSF.
 

turpit

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Even aluminum self oxidized to Al2O3, which is highly passivating so initially the oxide layer is very thin. It takes several days for oxidation to build up thickness on solid surfaces.

Si is a good example, if you strip the oxide with an HF etch, then measure oxidation over time it takes about 6 hours before any detectable amount of oxygen appears, and takes a few days before the oxide growth 'saturates'. Al2O3 is similar behavior --- Alumina though has decent thermal characteristics compard to CuO, Cu2O, and SiO2.

It's the copper oxide that is the most annoying, sometimes it is so thick I cannot get rid of it all without baking it off.

Jack

I wrote the response below before reading your response. For the purposes I am more familiar with in Aluminum (structural) the oxide layer may be more critical than when it is used as a heat sink. For welding, the only book I have that addresses aluminum in depth gives a time of "about" 15 minutes to the formation of the first layer of oxide. Additionally, it states because the oxide is so tough, subsequent layer formation adds little protection to the original layer, and is not of significant consequence.

So it may be that for the purposes of heat transfer Al2O3 is far less critical than it is in welding.

In welding, what happens is the Al2O3 actually forms a "skin" protecting the Al underneath. The base Al will actually melt while the skin will form an impermeable layer blocking the fusion of the electrode wire with the base metal.

The question is, why does the Al2O3 "skin". Is it due to a higher melting point, or a different coefficient of heat transfer. In the case of the latter, this would certainly seem to have an impact on the optimal use of Al (or 6061 T6 Al in most cases) for HSF
 

joset

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The question is, why does the Al2O3 "skin". Is it due to a higher melting point, or a different coefficient of heat transfer. In the case of the latter, this would certainly seem to have an impact on the optimal use of Al (or 6061 T6 Al in most cases) for HSF

Although this will not answer both of your questions, it's a good starting point for the search of structural occurrences at the interface boundary, nevertheless:

High-resolution transmission electron microscopy observations on the structure of the interphase boundary between crystalline Al and amorphous Al2O3 coating reveal that an interfacial melting transition of Al occurs at 833 K, which is distinctly lower than the bulk melting point of Al. The crystalline lattice planes of Al near the interface bend or small segments of crystalline Al deviated from the matrix Al grains are formed. Stand-off dislocations formed at the interphase boundary are also observed. The amorphous Al2O3 coating plays an important role in retaining the evidence for structural transition at high temperature to room temperature[/b], which makes it possible to make experimental observations.

(http://www.iop.org/EJ/abstract/0953-8984/14/8/316/; just the abstract, since I'm not a subscriber).


Cheers!
 

turpit

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The question is, why does the Al2O3 "skin". Is it due to a higher melting point, or a different coefficient of heat transfer. In the case of the latter, this would certainly seem to have an impact on the optimal use of Al (or 6061 T6 Al in most cases) for HSF

Although this will not answer both of your questions, it's a good starting point for the search of structural occurrences at the interface boundary, nevertheless:

High-resolution transmission electron microscopy observations on the structure of the interphase boundary between crystalline Al and amorphous Al2O3 coating reveal that an interfacial melting transition of Al occurs at 833 K, which is distinctly lower than the bulk melting point of Al. The crystalline lattice planes of Al near the interface bend or small segments of crystalline Al deviated from the matrix Al grains are formed. Stand-off dislocations formed at the interphase boundary are also observed. The amorphous Al2O3 coating plays an important role in retaining the evidence for structural transition at high temperature to room temperature[/b], which makes it possible to make experimental observations.

(http://www.iop.org/EJ/abstract/0953-8984/14/8/316/; just the abstract, since I'm not a subscriber).


Cheers!

Interesting, but if I am reading that correctly, that is dealing specifically with the al-al2o3 boundry layer, and not the entire crossectional area of the al2o3 layer. Though not specifically stated, as I interpret that, (by "ommision") due to the lower melting point at the transitional layer, both the Al and al2o3 are remaining solid after the transitional layer material has melted.
 

jimw428

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What began with a simple question by the OP, has degenerated into a gross display of pseudo intellectual masturbation. Give it up guys, nobody is impressed. :roll:
 

turpit

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What began with a simple question by the OP, has degenerated into a gross display of pseudo intellectual masturbation. Give it up guys, nobody is impressed. :roll:

Not really. Imagine if you could increase you HSFs efficiency signifcantly simply by doing a quick phosphoric acid etch to remove a layer of oxidation.
 

jimw428

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What began with a simple question by the OP, has degenerated into a gross display of pseudo intellectual masturbation. Give it up guys, nobody is impressed. :roll:

Not really. Imagine if you could increase you HSFs efficiency signifcantly simply by doing a quick phosphoric acid etch to remove a layer of oxidation.

That's not the question he asked. If you have some revolutionary method for improving a HSF's efficiency, wouldn’t that be a topic for another thread?
 

turpit

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What began with a simple question by the OP, has degenerated into a gross display of pseudo intellectual masturbation. Give it up guys, nobody is impressed. :roll:

Not really. Imagine if you could increase you HSFs efficiency signifcantly simply by doing a quick phosphoric acid etch to remove a layer of oxidation.

That's not the question he asked. If you have some revolutionary method for improving a HSF's efficiency, wouldn’t that be a topic for another thread?

Well, thats the turn the thread has taken. As to the OPs original question, that could have been answered with a simple yes/no. So, if the thread has gone on as long as it has, it would be indicative that it has taken said turn. As always, no ones forcing you to watch the thread, and if you feel there is no useful info left here for you, or your not inetersted in the subject, then simply dont read the thread. Adding a "this is useless" post is --------usless. This post itself, stating that a "this is usless" post is usless is-----useless.

You and I have now added 4 usless posts to this thread. Are you going to make it 5?
 

joset

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Interesting, but if I am reading that correctly, that is dealing specifically with the al-al2o3 boundry layer, and not the entire crossectional area of the al2o3 layer. Though not specifically stated, as I interpret that, (by "ommision") due to the lower melting point at the transitional layer, both the Al and al2o3 are remaining solid after the transitional layer material has melted.

I'm no expert on these matters (I'm stressing this point); anyway, since Al bulk melting point is about 933.47 K, that would be correct (although I don't know the Al2O3 melting point...); as for a cross-sectional area characteristics of the AL2O3... I only hope you can bring up some interesting data on this, since you seem pretty knowledgeable on the subject (pertinent to the topic, of course! :wink: ).


Cheers!