Lots of money on PSU = Lost of wasted cash!

[GreenJelly]

I am going to start a very big arguement here... and will probably let it go on without me... But, I have a very different approach to computer purchasing when it comes to PSU's

History & Basics

First, Power Supply Units, are essentially AC->DC power converters, with a requirement of supplying multiple Voltages each at different wattages.

Dispite what the manufacturers want you to beleive... this is old school tech... You could build your own PSU using parts from 40 years ago, and with the knowledge that was around then.

What is true, is that the parts that make up a PSU, have gotten better... in some cases, MUCH better... they heat up less, and they provide less margin of error. They also cost less. In the old days you could make up with this margin of error with more detailed designs, fans, heatsinks, and more parts... Now with better part quality, simplier designs can be used.

The new stuff uses newer components, which provide some benifits... These benifits usually come as longer life spans, more power/less heat ratio, cost, veriable fan speeds, higher wattages, etc.

Of course you can go out and buy the BEST transistors on the market, and the BEST capacitors... and these units will perform really well at low temps, and most likely will live longer... and will definately take more of your cash.

But heres the catch... The better the parts, the lower the heat, so the less fans they put on it, so the heat goes back up inside it, but you dont hear it.. or they keep the fans and they get a higher UL approved wattage rating.

Life in the world of Physics

This is were it gets dicey... a UL approved rating is the maximum safe operation. Going past it is usually acceptable for short bursts. Under long term stress the components will die (and might catch on fire burning your house down). The UL rating is there for safety.

So a cheap PSU rated at a 600w UL approved rating verse an expensive 450w UL means that if you run the 600 at 500... the stress put on it is allot less, and the life span will get ALLOT longer. Run the expensive 450 at a steady 500w the life would be very short and your house could catch on fire and burn.

Now if you buy a cheap 600w UL rated powersupply... and you run it with any processor on the market, with a few hard drives and you leave it on all day, with occassional usage, it most likely wont die on you (notice I didnt include a videocard in the HW list)... A PSU of this magnitude will last for MANY years in these conditions.

Buy a 1,000w Power Supply, and the life span of that powersupply will probably outlive the voltage requirements for PC's in the future.

Its like buying a Ferrari, sure you can run the thing at 200mph for 1 days NON STOP, without a breakdown... but on the 2rd day, you find yourself needing a Ferrari parts dealer. (See Le'mans Racing)

If you take that same Ferrari and run it at 50mph, you would easily be able to cover 15+ days and allot more distance. Even if you put that SAME car in one of the HOTEST deserts in the world, and drive it for 15 days. (See Road and Track about 4 months ago),

REALITY
Every PSU that has ever gone bad on me, started to do the same thing... The machine would run for awhile, then I would do something with a heavy load, and it would shut down... or it would randomly just shut down. I have NEVER lost a computer part due to a bad PSU... Not once... Not on any of the machines at any companies I worked at, or any of the machines my family, and my extended family, and friends run... I know because I am often the one all of these people goto when the computer starts acting weird..

My fathers neighbor was hit by lightning, and the static and power surge burnt out a telephone, the electric dog fence, and a few other minor devices. The only computer parts we lost was a router and a single network card... all of the machines run fine, and are on 24 hours a day... The surge protectors are the cheap ones you buy at any store, and they didnt go off...

The time to Buy an expensive PSU?
In servers we often run 2 Hotswapable PSU's each on their own Generators... These PSU's are generally of high wattage, for longer life... We aircondition these rooms, and the rooms airconditioners are also run by either generator...

If you want 2 video cards, then buy a higher watt PSU (600w).

If you want quiet, then spend extra money.

If you want moduler design, with nice wires, lights, etc... Then spend more money.

If you want to save yourself grief from THG Forum PSU Nazi's who will blame everything from why your car doesnt start to the reason your hard-drive went bad on your PSU, then spend more money...

What this reminds me of
I am a bit of an audiophile. Do you know that you can spend $10,000 on 3 feet of SPEAKER cable... Yes, wire... from the Amp to your speaker...

When scientific studies have been performed with direct comparisons of this REALLY expensive wire verse a normal lamp cord wire... There was NO proof that one wire sounded any different then the other... These tests used $110,000 speakers, with the best equipment available... Yet no one could tell the difference between the $10,000 wire and the $10 wire.

Now go to ANY audio store, and see how many "High end" audio cable you can buy... Ask the sales man if that wire makes any difference? He will most certainly say yes...

Go to a High end audio store... and go listen to there $10,000 plus speakers... and look at the 4" radius wire running from the speaker to the amp... then ask the sales man if it makes any difference. He will say yes...

Then ask him to do a double blind study... and watch how he skerts around triing to explain how difficult it would be to set up.... hmmm... a Drape, a $10 cord, and that 4 inch speaker, both out of sight... yep... impossible to set up...

Why? Because companies like to make you feel like your buying a Ferrari... They market themselves as the "BEST", and they often earn that praise... There powersupply probably has a 2% better chance of making it another year then the cheaper one does...

Take that
Mike

 

[Mousemonkey]

Hear, Hear could'nt agree with you more my friend. 8) BTW 10,000K on 3ft of speaker cable , you cheapskate :lol: :lol:

 

[4745454b]

I think we are on the same page, but I'm not sure. First, have you ever ran one of those REALLY cheap PSUs? I think we agree, but I'm checking to see what you think cheap is. I'm talking about one of these:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16817138001

Check out this bad boy. 450W, 100% feedback rating, and a mere $21 after rebate counting shipping. Would anyone on this forum trust their build to this PSU?

While I don't suggest ANYONE uses this powersupply, there are many out there that will work for people in the $35-60 range. Antec, thermaltake, and others make perfectly good powersupplies that I would use in my own system. Sure, you could go hog wild and get an OCZ or a PCP&C, but most of us don't need something that high end. If this is what you are referring to, I agree. If however your claiming that you've never had a psu blow on you and we should stick to supplies like the one I linked you, you're nuts.

P.S. You forgot to talk about the difference between peak and sustained power. The one I linked to is probably 450W peak, while PCP&C and Seasonic list their supplies as sustained. Theres a big difference between those two.

 

[clue69less]

You lost your wasted cash? Did it drink too mush?

 

[doolittle]

I have NEVER lost a computer part due to a bad PSU... Not once...

This is like saying "I never had a car crash due to a flat tire". I have not had a car crash due to a flat tire either.

I have seen psu blow-outs kill components, and they were very "light weight" power supplies. This usually means they lack components to keep the manufacturing costs down. Which circuits you ask? Probably "protective" circuits that keep unsafe voltage / current spikes from passing through to the outputs, aka a crowbar circuit. It's not a 100% failsafe but it greatly reduces the risk of component damage. A good analogy would be having a default install of an unpatched windows pc directly on the DMZ internet without a firewall, and why MS enabled the firewall by default in SP2.

Compare this:

COOLER MASTER eXtreme Power RS-430 for $34 shipped @ newegg. In the "description" tab you see this:

Over Voltage Protection YES
Overload Protection YES

The product link tells you more:

Protection OVP / OCP / OPP / Short Circuit Protection

Now look at this "light" power supply:

XION Simply 400W for $25.11 shipped @ newegg w/ a $10 MIR

There is no "protection" anywhere in the description. The product link is also devoid of that word. Why? Being UL listed does not require to have protective circuitry.

BTW those dual-redundant hot-swap server PSUs definitly have protective circuitry, as well as active PFC. I trust your dual-generators have the UPS power behind them to carry the load until the generator can get to up-and-running status. Seriously the generator is useless if you have utility glitches and every server has to crash / reboot on generator power get a redundant 200+ KVA ups system to compliment the generators. Ours are triple-redundant, we can take a UPS failure and still be load redundant 8) well, unless our generator is dead or out of gas

As far as speaker wire goes - zip cord was my preference

 

[pcrig]

Life in the world of Physics

So a cheap PSU rated at a 600w UL approved rating verse an expensive 450w UL means that if you run the 600 at 500... the stress put on it is allot less, and the life span will get ALLOT longer. Run the expensive 450 at a steady 500w the life would be very short and your house could catch on fire and burn.

Now if you buy a cheap 600w UL rated powersupply... and you run it with any processor on the market, with a few hard drives and you leave it on all day, with occassional usage, it most likely wont die on you (notice I didnt include a videocard in the HW list)... A PSU of this magnitude will last for MANY years in these conditions.
Take that
Mike

Here s a fundamental ERROR in your statments.

UL DOES'T RATE or approve any equipment.

UL is a testing laboratory which only LISTS equipment as complying with various specification.
UL doesn't accept liability for design or performance of the equipment.

UL by listing equipment confirms that the equipment with UL level is built in accordance to electrical and NFPA codes, and that the equipment is built and designed to safely perform under the rated by the manufacturers loads, and does not pose the injury hazards to users and operators.

http://www.ul.com/info/standard.htm

"UL tested products for public safety for more than a century."

UL label (listing) mean that the equipment as designed and manufactured is meeting the safety STANDARDS under rated by the manufacturer loads, and operational conditions and (i.e. NFPA) classifications.

i.e. it only mean that the i.e. wire gage is in compliance with industry standards for given laods, that wire will not brake, that the fasteners are properly attached, and unit wouldn't pose the fire hazards.
UL would refuse listing for hire loads than equipment is designed and built in accordance to industry Specs.

Man by the time you finished your thesis you could earn enough money for the most expensive unit!

It is called TIME management.

PSU is the most important componnent of the computer, so you wouldn't just buy the cheapest but the most stable unit under the rated loads.
There are differnt types of PSU


Basically your disertation is asking for ... trolls.

We a only discussing operstiomnal safety undre the given by manufacturer load.







.

 

[clue69less]

Man by the time you finished your thesis you could earn enough money for the most expensive unit!

You imply that BS has value...

 

[angry_ducky]

I'll pay to see the look on your face when your cheapo, crappo Ultra-brand PSU blows, and takes your $1000 CPU with it.

 

[clue69less]

I'll pay to see the look on your face when your cheapo, crappo Ultra-brand PSU blows, and takes your $1000 CPU with it.

Oh, we'll hear ALL about it, and the sig will change...

 

[merlin3791]

What about the inefficiency of a cheap PSU = lots of wasted energy = lots of wasted cash! Getting a highly efficient PSU will save you money in the long run.

 

[wolfman140]

I have built 2 computers with the $25 Rosewill psu from Newegg (I think its 450 w I'm not sure) and neither have had any problems. However, they are only running smaller video cards and 1 hard drive. My PC however is running a 7900GT, and 2 hdds (one of them a raptor) with a new Conroe...So...That being said...I wouldn't use a cheapo psu for mine.

In most cases of life...you get what you pay for. There may be some exceptions, but its usually true. So I would spend more $ on a psu for a comp that I really cared about. EVEN if it is ONLY just for piece of mind that I have a 'name-brand' psu, it still makes me feel safer and that is important. I think in a lot of cases, the placebo effect of having name-brand IS important. For example...when you got the drug store...There's Equate or CVS brand for $4, vs. the name brand for $7. I bought the CVS version of Afrin (a nasal spray) and even though it had identical active ingredients...I swear it did not work as well. Nor did the CVS brand of acne med. So...perhaps its all in my head that the name brand works better...but...if thats what makes the difference, then so be it and I'll pay the extra for the placebo effect that somehow makes me feel better.

 

[GreenJelly]

Life in the world of Physics

So a cheap PSU rated at a 600w UL approved rating verse an expensive 450w UL means that if you run the 600 at 500... the stress put on it is allot less, and the life span will get ALLOT longer. Run the expensive 450 at a steady 500w the life would be very short and your house could catch on fire and burn.

Now if you buy a cheap 600w UL rated powersupply... and you run it with any processor on the market, with a few hard drives and you leave it on all day, with occassional usage, it most likely wont die on you (notice I didnt include a videocard in the HW list)... A PSU of this magnitude will last for MANY years in these conditions.
Take that
Mike

Here s a fundamental ERROR in your statments.

UL DOES'T RATE or approve any equipment.

UL is a testing laboratory which only LISTS equipment as complying with various specification.
UL doesn't accept liability for design or performance of the equipment.

UL by listing equipment confirms that the equipment with UL level is built in accordance to electrical and NFPA codes, and that the equipment is built and designed to safely perform under the rated by the manufacturers loads, and does not pose the injury hazards to users and operators.

http://www.ul.com/info/standard.htm

"UL tested products for public safety for more than a century."

UL label (listing) mean that the equipment as designed and manufactured is meeting the safety STANDARDS under rated by the manufacturer loads, and operational conditions and (i.e. NFPA) classifications.

i.e. it only mean that the i.e. wire gage is in compliance with industry standards for given laods, that wire will not brake, that the fasteners are properly attached, and unit wouldn't pose the fire hazards.
UL would refuse listing for hire loads than equipment is designed and built in accordance to industry Specs.


I dont think I ever disagreed with a single thing you stated in my original note... I know what UL label is, and what it isnt, and I figured I made it clear in my statement what I ment. Now if I didn't, which seems to be clear now, then thank you for clarrifing what I was meaning.

I personally didnt even KNOW that you could buy one for $30... I WOULD buy one, if it was for an old computer... I do agree that their is a limit to what I ment by inexpensive, but it has less to do with cost then with design... as stated above by another individual.

The "protection" these expensive PSU's provide are like your surge protector, if your house or the electric pole gets hit by lightning then your computer would be fried way before the circuit breaker goes off...

Again, in my 20 years of experiance... both personal and commercial experiance, I have seen and repaired hundreds of computers, and not one of them was damaged by the PSU. This idea that the hard drive, motherboard, optical drive, video card (and other) manufacturers dont provide protection for surges in power is crazy.

The biggest threat for a surge/drop in power isnt from your PSU, but from the electric coming INTO your house. I recommend you go out and spend $100 or more on a UPS. Not because they protect you against total power failure, but because they are the single best way to ensure a constant power supply, without spikes or drops. I have a 7 year old belkin, and the battery in it was suppose to last me for 2 years... I just bought a new battery... With shipping (and this was REAL heavy) it cost me $20... I have used this UPS for 3 different computers during its lifespan, and I only have to replace it because after 450watts it starts to fail. Its a good investment.

I see these $200+ PSU's on the market and laugh... I think, what sucker is buying these... YaY, you spent $100 for less then 1% protection of your equipment... hahahaha.

There are some $100-$200 dollar range PSU's I would buy... but I would buy them because they offer 600+ watts and are ultra-quite.

Mike

 

[GreenJelly]

BTW, in the life span of that single UPS, it has seen more then 3 different $100 PSU's die on it... One was a 350 watt. then 400 watt, the 450w...

I recommend buying high watt PSU's especially when you run low watt systems, cause its a pain in the ass to replace powersupplies... and every manufacturer admits that their power supply is ment to run at a certain load (usually 75% of the listed raiting).

for thoose who beleive that supper expensive PSU's are going to save the world, then I recommend to them these speaker cables for there $80 radios...

http://www.goodwinshighend.com/cable.htm

 

[angry_ducky]

I recommend buying high watt PSU's especially when you run low watt systems, cause its a pain in the ass to replace powersupplies

Are you recommending cheapo 600W PSUs with 10A on the +12V rail?

 

[GreenJelly]

This is like saying "I never had a car crash due to a flat tire". I have not had a car crash due to a flat tire either.

Its funny you should mention tires... Thoose $200 bridgestone tires on Ford SUV's... You know, the Top of the line ones! How many people did those tires kill?

What about the inefficiency of a cheap PSU = lots of wasted energy = lots of wasted cash! Getting a highly efficient PSU will save you money in the long run.

I cant even reply to this... It is clear you dont know how the PSU, or any electronics, works... An assumption that a Expensive PSU will save you cash on power is CRAZY, and REALLY wrong...

BTW, the Ultra brand PSU I bought has one of the best support department I have ever worked with... I was checking to see if the fan temp gaudge was broken, and they were willing to ship me a new one, without any cost to me on shippment, and was willing to do so without me returning my current one first... I couldnt be happier with the ultra brand, and would recommend them to anyone... Except they are a bit noisy for people running higher watt systems... BTW, I never needed to replace it... and because the Ultra engineers where smart in their design, I was able to create a PSU with the same top end clearance as bottom end. This allows me to install my PSU upside down, allowing me to pull air from outside of the case!

Mike

 

[GreenJelly]

I recommend buying high watt PSU's especially when you run low watt systems, cause its a pain in the ass to replace powersupplies

Are you recommending cheapo 600W PSUs with 10A on the +12V rail?

I dont recommend any defective product... It is easy to find out if a product is defective or has a history of problems... just do a google on the PSU... Good PSU's receive lots of High ratings and reviews... Look at new egg, and see what people think... Only people who have purchased the item can complain/praise a product, so you dont get people who havent used the product themselves...

 

[doolittle]

Its funny you should mention tires... Thoose $200 bridgestone tires on Ford SUV's... You know, the Top of the line ones! How many people did those tires kill?

They should have bought a Hummer :?

"ford" and "top of the line" in the same paragraph 8O

 

[merc14]

The "PSU Nazis" are that way for a reason, it is because they have dealt with so many guys that are having system problems because they are running $3k worth of gear off of one of those perfectly good $38, 600 watt PSU's. I have seen so many issues with these "perfectly" acceptable PSU's that I have lost count. Sorry, but your premise doesn't match my experience. I also know folks who have lost components to a PSU going bad.

As far as your 20 years of experience, which I respect, that is fine but are you saying that you regularly put low end PSU's on your servers? Are you also saying that more efficient PSU's don't save any money? I don't think so and I agree that the cost savings of having a highly efficient PSU on a home rig is minimal at best, maybe a few doalrs a year at most, but generally the more efficient PSU is also the more expensive. Also, I have seen those cheap-o 600 watt units drop to 11.4v on the 12v rail. That is within standards but the high end systems sure don't like it.

Sorry but I can't agree with most of what you say. No, you probably don't need a $200 PSU but I would never recommend you match $3k worth of gear with anything that costs under about $100. Guys that do are usually back in the forums fairly quickly with all those weird system problems that the cheap-o units cause.

Guys, if you are building a high end rig, please do yourself, and everone else on the forums, a favor and get a quality PSU with plenty of amps.

 

[immagikman]

There are a few simple rules you can live by.

1. You only get what you pay for....some of the time.

2. You NEVER get more than you pay for.

3. Going cheap is usually the first step of getting fired.

Just some rules of thumb from my business experience.

 

[clue69less]

I cant even reply to this...

I'm not surprised... Oh wait, you tried anyway:

It is clear you dont know how the PSU, or any electronics, works... An assumption that a Expensive PSU will save you cash on power is CRAZY, and REALLY wrong...

So you don't understand efficiency? Check. Not surprising...

BTW, the Ultra brand PSU I bought has one of the best support department I have ever worked with...

That's good for you. I suspect you'll be in touch with them again... and again...

This allows me to install my PSU upside down, allowing me to pull air from outside of the case!

An upside-down PS seems oddly appropriate for you. I bet that you spent hours trying to figure out why the A/C plug wouldn't go into the receptacle upside down too. Do the upside down electrons underclock your 6800?

 

[clue69less]

I would never recommend you match $3k worth of gear with anything that costs under about $100. Guys that do are usually back in the forums fairly quickly with all those weird system problems that the cheap-o units cause.

If you look back at Jelly's posting history, you'll see that he's talked about replacing MANY cheap power supplies - with more cheap power supplies. The data is in his face but all he sees are the LED photons emanating from the fan of his Ultra. I bet he's on his knees right now, worshipping his bling. Curtains pulled tight, room lights out, bummer, sunlight leaks lower the LED contrast... Worship LEDs... Worship LEDs...

Jelly, you're the master of bling. Leave the power supply discussion to people that understand the facts.

 

[crimsonfilms]

What about the inefficiency of a cheap PSU = lots of wasted energy = lots of wasted cash! Getting a highly efficient PSU will save you money in the long run.

Crunch some numbers on a typical 500W @ 75% vs 500W @ 65%.

You will be surprised on how much it actually saves you.
It is not as big as some people think. And remember the difference is usually there only when the PSU is being pushed to the limit.

 

[tool_462]

I don't want to be involved in the argument or "discussion" but I am curious if anyone has ever heard of or seen an Ultra PSU die. I know of at least 4 people that use them and 1 of the guys has an SLI setup (2x 7900 gt) and an overclocked D915 running a water kit and he leaves it on almost 24/7 and it is still going strong.

I like my PSU and haven't had any issues with it. Just curious if anyone has a horror story or something. I have yet to see a PSU damage a component, though I am not doubting the fact that it happens.

 

[CNeufeld]

Can't say I entirely agree with your theory. I recently had the experience of using a bottom-feeding power supply that was part of an Aspire X-QPack case. The thing fluctuated power, going up to 20% above spec on some rails, and oscillating up and down like crazy. This was being measured from the motherboard, but the same board, when combined with an Enermax Liberty or Antec PSU had no issues.

I never lost a part that I can point to the PSU, but I can't imagine running at 20% above rated voltage would be good for equipment life-spans. I only had the case for a week before I sent it back. Oh yeah, it blew air from outside INTO the case, pre-warming it nicely for all the components inside. First one I've ever seen do that. And especially dangerous with a small cube-case... The unit was fully factory sealed before I got it, as well.

Clint

 

[4745454b]

I cant even reply to this... It is clear you dont know how the PSU, or any electronics, works... An assumption that a Expensive PSU will save you cash on power is CRAZY, and REALLY wrong...

Wait, hang on. I need to pull up a good seat. PLEASE explain this seeing as we don't understand how this is wrong. I need a good laugh today.

(btw, although I'm sitting down, you might need to stand up if you're going to pull something amazing out of your @$$.)