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PCI Express 2.0 you say?

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  • Graphics Cards
  • PCI Express
  • Graphics
Last response: in Graphics & Displays
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October 10, 2006 6:38:40 PM

coming soon to a computer near you:
final revisions underway... sounds interesting:

Quote:
In addition to connecting with plug-in slots, the PCI Express Cable specification will allow PCI devices to connect using copper cables as long as 10 meters long, and with data transfer speeds of 2.5 Gbits/s per line.

Because almost all of today's high-end graphics cards use PCI Express, PCI-SIG is working on a new specification that will deliver increased power to the graphics card in the system, essentially extending the existing 150-watt power supply to 225 or 300 watts of power.

ExtremeTech


Ara

More about : pci express

a b U Graphics card
October 10, 2006 7:03:54 PM

Quote:

Because almost all of today's high-end graphics cards use PCI Express, PCI-SIG is working on a new specification that will deliver increased power to the graphics card in the system, essentially extending the existing 150-watt power supply to 225 or 300 watts of power.

ExtremeTech


None of the current ones use 150 over the PCIe bus, the PCIe-150W psec doesn't see the light of day in consumer products, that was another proposed spec that never got implemented, right now it's still 75W over the PCIe.
October 10, 2006 7:11:49 PM

i only quoted what they wrote

be back in 16 hours or so... (sleep and school)
see ya guys, g'night

Ara
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October 10, 2006 7:28:24 PM

We're not coming close to maxing our current PCI-E bandwith, no need to expand, but still nice to see stuff being done.

The ability to connect through a wire though is real interesting, but pointless for most consumers.
a b U Graphics card
October 10, 2006 8:02:23 PM

Quote:
i only quoted what they wrote


I know, just pointing that out, not refuting the source.
BTW, we've discussed this a few times before, nice to see them getting further in the spec.
a b U Graphics card
October 10, 2006 8:25:38 PM

The thing though is if they are going to move to something I'd prefer they move to 300W right away and skip 150W implementation, considering our G80/R600 discussions that makes more sense to me.
October 10, 2006 8:55:26 PM

That part I'm trying to decide if I like. Yes, it would be nice to have power sent through the mobo thus bypassing a PCI-E connecter, but why are we encourgaing graphics companies to anally rape us with their huge wattage GPU's... sigh.

Oh well, I'll mark this on my list of "things that are nice but not really important." My list of "kickass things worth waiting for" still has DX10, 45nm chips, native quad-cores, and DDR3...
October 10, 2006 10:01:14 PM

It would be nice to get rid of the extra power connector on my x850xt. The less cable clutter the better. Expecially one that lands right in the middle of my mobo.

While I don't like the trend towards crazy power consumption that video cards have shown, I don't think that it will last forever. With the AMD/ATI merger, perhaps AMD's influence will reduce the power consumption of the ATI cards.
a b U Graphics card
October 11, 2006 3:14:35 AM

Quote:
That part I'm trying to decide if I like. Yes, it would be nice to have power sent through the mobo thus bypassing a PCI-E connecter, but why are we encourgaing graphics companies to anally rape us with their huge wattage GPU's... sigh.


Nothing we can do about it. If we wanted them to slow the pace of production they could optimize re-spin and likely give us 10-30% reduction in power, but we want fastest NOW, and if people are concerned about power consumption then buy a GF7600GT which consumes less power than a GF6600GT, but truely to have the best NOW, it cost energy. It seems to be the tradeoff people want. 5% throughput increase from moving fro 10Kto15K HDDs isn't usually worth the heat and noicse except to Wusy, but getting to 30% performance increase with another 20-40W power consumption seems to be something everyone is willing to give. They're just following our wants/needs really.
October 11, 2006 1:41:57 PM

naaa, i think the day we see external devices which use PCIe is a good day... i mean think about it, you can have proper external sound cards, graphics cards (laptops...) and other cool stuff that are only available internally

Ara
October 11, 2006 2:11:17 PM

Quote:
naaa, i think the day we see external devices which use PCIe is a good day... i mean think about it, you can have proper external sound cards, graphics cards (laptops...) and other cool stuff that are only available internally

Ara


That's all I need: a computer that looks like my entertainment center. Wires connecting peripherals everywhere.
October 11, 2006 2:37:58 PM

lol... they could make it optional... easily with a standard external enclosure, if you don't want it, then you can take it out of the enclosure and make it internal...?

just a thought,
Ara
October 11, 2006 3:48:16 PM

does it mean we need a new motherboard, graphic card, and psu? *ouch* that's gonna hurt..
October 11, 2006 4:19:16 PM

Quote:
does it mean we need a new motherboard, graphic card, and psu? *ouch* that's gonna hurt..


DING DING DING!!!! You are correct sir! :D  New upgrades are just around the corner! 8)
October 11, 2006 5:54:22 PM

External video cards would be awesome for laptops. You could have improved graphics for your laptop at home and just leave the enclosure when you go to work.

Of course this wouldn't be that useful for desktops. I guess you could always borrow someones graphics enclosure if you couldn't run a new game. They could even rent out the enclosures at game rental stores.
October 11, 2006 5:57:30 PM

PSU, almost definitely, more power to the mobo to supply the graphics card.
current graphics cards won't be able to take advantage of the PCIe based power increase. but new graphics cards will simply be designed to take advantage of this, old cards will still work though which is fortunate, not like the upgrade from AGP to PCIe (i.e: no compatibility)

Ara
October 11, 2006 9:52:49 PM

Quote:
External video cards would be awesome for laptops. You could have improved graphics for your laptop at home and just leave the enclosure when you go to work.

Of course this wouldn't be that useful for desktops. I guess you could always borrow someones graphics enclosure if you couldn't run a new game. They could even rent out the enclosures at game rental stores.


External graphics cards defeat the purpose of a laptop, which is PORTABILITY. In addition, you would have to significantly alter the laptop case and motherboard to accept an external video card. I doubt very highly that a laptop vendor would want such a device as an option.
October 12, 2006 1:32:13 PM

but you see, the beauty of it is you can disconnect it when you want to go mobile.

Ara
October 12, 2006 2:07:17 PM

Quote:
We're not coming close to maxing our current PCI-E bandwith, no need to expand, but still nice to see stuff being done.

The ability to connect through a wire though is real interesting, but pointless for most consumers.


Firingsquad did an article recently on the bandwidth. Testing with two 7900gtx's .. and altho it didn't significantly change the scores or fps in most cases, in some using 16x instead of 8x did increase output by 3-10% .... so altho most consumercards aren't there yet, I bet the top models of next generations cards will get considerably closer, thus making pcie 2 a nessecity in future.

We wouldn't want to be in the situation we've been with usb 1 and 2 again ... having storage boxes that are way faster than the interface...
October 12, 2006 6:26:21 PM

Quote:
External video cards would be awesome for laptops. You could have improved graphics for your laptop at home and just leave the enclosure when you go to work.

Of course this wouldn't be that useful for desktops. I guess you could always borrow someones graphics enclosure if you couldn't run a new game. They could even rent out the enclosures at game rental stores.


External graphics cards defeat the purpose of a laptop, which is PORTABILITY. In addition, you would have to significantly alter the laptop case and motherboard to accept an external video card. I doubt very highly that a laptop vendor would want such a device as an option.

The whole point of this argument was that if motherboard design down the road allowed external graphics cards, then although this wouldn't be very useful for desktops, it would be quite useful for laptops. Then we could have extremely small laptops (w/ onboard video) that could also game quite nicely at home. This would also allow us to upgrade laptop video more easily. You wouldn't have to have as many onboard fans either, again saving on space (although presumably the video enclosure would need them).

Since the direction of the consumer computing market is going more and more towards portability, it is possible (however unlikely) that this could happen down the road. We already have docking stations that provide additional hard disk space (and I believe ram?). At the very least we could even just throw some extra graphics capability into a docking station. It could even be marketed as a laptop 'gaming station' that would allow laptop users the full gaming desktop experience without the loss of portability. Actually, I think that this is a really good idea and I am patenting that right now ©®™.
October 12, 2006 11:10:25 PM

Quote:
External video cards would be awesome for laptops. You could have improved graphics for your laptop at home and just leave the enclosure when you go to work.

Of course this wouldn't be that useful for desktops. I guess you could always borrow someones graphics enclosure if you couldn't run a new game. They could even rent out the enclosures at game rental stores.


External graphics cards defeat the purpose of a laptop, which is PORTABILITY. In addition, you would have to significantly alter the laptop case and motherboard to accept an external video card. I doubt very highly that a laptop vendor would want such a device as an option.

The whole point of this argument was that if motherboard design down the road allowed external graphics cards, then although this wouldn't be very useful for desktops, it would be quite useful for laptops. Then we could have extremely small laptops (w/ onboard video) that could also game quite nicely at home. This would also allow us to upgrade laptop video more easily. You wouldn't have to have as many onboard fans either, again saving on space (although presumably the video enclosure would need them).

Since the direction of the consumer computing market is going more and more towards portability, it is possible (however unlikely) that this could happen down the road. We already have docking stations that provide additional hard disk space (and I believe ram?). At the very least we could even just throw some extra graphics capability into a docking station. It could even be marketed as a laptop 'gaming station' that would allow laptop users the full gaming desktop experience without the loss of portability. Actually, I think that this is a really good idea and I am patenting that right now ©®™.

Going towards portability, but the applications to fill that concept in practical ways are another matter. How heavy are gaming laptops/notebooks now? Kinda hefty.

Talk to Intel about the computer world accepting their BTX mobo standard.

The form factor for a "gaming laptop" that you describe would be cost prohibitive given the existing standards. Would vendors still need to spec a high-end card for mobile options?

PCIe 2.0 is still a dark cloud of uncertainty for component makers.
October 13, 2006 12:00:00 AM

The whole point is that they could buy a small, relatively cheap laptop and still game with it effectively. If the user has this 'gaming' external attachement (docking station or otherwise) that holds their graphics cards (and if docking station, more ram, faster HD, etc) then why would this 'gaming' laptop have to be so big and heavy? The only parts necessary for it to game that aren't in this external package are the CPU and motherboard. You seem to be thinking about what we have today. I am talking about what could be done using today's and tomorrow's technology.

The laptop could use cheap onboard graphics for their mobile needs (who needs more than that for everyday office use?) and would be relatively cheap itself. Think about it, the only really expensive part needed for gaming on your PC is your video card. You can build the rest of the PC for under $500. I am basically saying that a midrange laptop today (say $1500) combined with a graphics package (say another $400) or a docking station with graphics, ram, hd (say $800) would be able to have a great gaming experience and retain its portability. I don't think it would cost much more than one of the gaming notebooks we have today.

BTW, is it just me or does 'external attachment' sounds kinda dirty?
October 13, 2006 3:37:46 AM

Quote:


BTW, is it just me or does 'external attachment' sounds kinda dirty?


Oh I agree.. very subversive :) 

However, I think you are a bit too optimistic as to the price configurations of laptops that would adopt an external attachment (oooooh just typing that phrase seems naughty) ;) 
October 13, 2006 6:30:33 AM

I'm not going to predict wether or not such a graphics docking station would be a versatile project from an economical point of view.
But the BTX form factor you compare it to isn't really something you can compare with. Cause with BTX you have an alternative standard you can use, and in general most computer builders aren't in favor of btx systems, as they appear less flexible due to their airflow concept. That might be a reason BTX isn't integrated fast. If a concept is really good, it won't take long to adopt it. Take 3dfx as an example. Half a year after I heard about 3dfx cards the first time, most of my friends had one, and loads of games supported it.
October 13, 2006 3:31:42 PM

i never liked BTX...
October 13, 2006 5:14:47 PM

Quote:

But the BTX form factor you compare it to isn't really something you can compare with. Cause with BTX you have an alternative standard you can use, and in general most computer builders aren't in favor of btx systems, as they appear less flexible due to their airflow concept. That might be a reason BTX isn't integrated fast.


BTX example is very appropriate. Intel wanted the industry to adopt the platform. It may be more efficient for cooling, but require a radical reworking of computer case layout, thus it only exists for large scale OEM systems. Mainstream and upgrade vendors won't touch it , even for Intel chip mobos: too expensive to support along with ATX and micro ATX.

3DFX was a video standard for compatability and offered superior performace, until it was surpased by its rivals.
October 13, 2006 6:32:51 PM

Quote:

However, I think you are a bit too optimistic as to the price configurations of laptops that would adopt an external attachment (oooooh just typing that phrase seems naughty) ;) 


Could be. I haven't owned a laptop for a few years. They are way too expensive and there is no upgrade path. My last one was $3000 and was nearly obsolete about a year and a half later.

I think that the price of a laptop that supports said external attachment would be dependent on if a standard develops. If all of the devices are proprietary then prices will be high, but if an open standard develops then you can just mix and match. In that case I meant a midrange laptop and docking station. I have never owned or even looked at a docking station, so I don't know if my guestimates are way off with that.
October 13, 2006 9:46:47 PM

Quote:

However, I think you are a bit too optimistic as to the price configurations of laptops that would adopt an external attachment (oooooh just typing that phrase seems naughty) ;) 


Could be. I haven't owned a laptop for a few years. They are way too expensive and there is no upgrade path. My last one was $3000 and was nearly obsolete about a year and a half later.

I think that the price of a laptop that supports said external attachment would be dependent on if a standard develops. If all of the devices are proprietary then prices will be high, but if an open standard develops then you can just mix and match. In that case I meant a midrange laptop and docking station. I have never owned or even looked at a docking station, so I don't know if my guestimates are way off with that.

Madrox has that Triplehead2go unit. Might be worth a look :wink:

Laptops are a compromise given their design and purpose. My HP laptop came to just over $1300 with tax. The Nvidia 7600 Go is very nice for the price range.
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